Is the cause of runaway Prius stories ... other runaway Prius stories?

[wtmusic]

"Following weeks of bad news for Toyota involving brake and acceleration problems and millions of recalled vehicles, something kind of strange happened: a second-gen Prius, which had been recalled because there was a potential that the floor mat could cause unintended acceleration, reached 94 miles per hour on a California highway apparently against the driver's wishes, in a case where the floor mat was not to blame. Two days later, a similar thing happened in New York. We aren't saying that these incidents aren't exactly what the drivers involved claim, but the AP is reminding us that there could be something else at work here.

The relentless media coverage of Toyota's problems could be getting into drivers' minds and making "it much more likely that drivers will mistake anything unexpected - or even a misplaced foot - for actual danger." A look at the number of complaints filed this year with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration over "speed control problems" – 272 in ten weeks – compared to 74 in all of 2009 helps make the case. When it comes to problems with brakes, people are even more freaked out: 1,816 have been filed in 2010 compared to 90 in 2009 and about 20 in each of the eight years before that."

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/03/11/is-the-cause-of-runaway-prius-stories-other-runaway-prius-st/

[greyl]

1. Seems a likely explanation for many of the incidents. A little collective delusion.

Windshield pitting incidents in Washington reach fever pitch on April 15, 1954.

The Seattle Windshield Pitting Epidemic of 1954 did indeed become a textbook example of collective delusion, sometimes mistakenly referred to as “mass hysteria.” To this day, sociologists and psychologists refer to the incident in their courses and writings alongside other similar events, such as Orson Welles’ Martian invasion panic of 1938, and supposed sightings of the “Jersey Devil” on the East Coast in 1909.

The Seattle pitting incident contains many key factors that play a part in collective delusion. These include ambiguity, the spread of rumors and false but plausible beliefs, mass media influence, recent geo-political events, and the reinforcement of false beliefs by authority figures (in this case, the police, military, and political figures).

This combination of factors, added to the simple fact that for the first time people actually looked "at" their windshields instead of "through" them, caused the hubbub. No vandals. No atomic fallout. No sand-fleas. No cosmic rays. No electronic oscillations. Just a bunch of window dings that were there from the start.

You probably have them on your car right now. Please don’t alert the media or your local police.

Start at the beginning of the story: www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&File_Id=5136

[TexasObserver]

19. You're desperate to blame everyone but Toyota.

1954? That's your reference?

I'll tell you who is experiencing mass hysteria/collective delusion. Toyota's defenders. And they've done for the past several years.

[greyl]

21. Wrong. This story involves humans and Toyotas.

Considering human behavior(as illustrated by the 1954 reference) can only serve to paint a fuller picture. If you ignore the human component, you're missing most of the picture.

I find it interesting that you aren't commenting on the substance of the posts and link here at all, but are only attacking the motives of other DUers.

[TexasObserver]

22. You're chasing your own biases and confirming them with nothing but imagination.

You're in denial about Toyota, and it appears your zeal to defend Toyota is surging out of control like their run away cars.

Some story from the McCarthy era is not "data." It's an anecdote that you wrongly think is applicable to Toyota's problems with their massively defective cars.

[greyl]

24. Lol, like I said, "you're only attacking the motives of other DUers"

That's not a persuasive way to discuss things.
Adios.

[KittyWampus]

29. actually, you are the one uninformed. Audi had this happen with accelators- turned out to be human

error. So it COULD be driver error fueled by mass delusion at this point.

COULD be.

No one has found the definitive problem yet.

The fact you resort to sophomoric name-calling like "Toyota Defenders" shows just how weak your input into this subject is.

[TexasObserver]

31. Stop being a Toyota Defender. It's the CAR!

If you want to defend a company that has already killed over 50 people by hiding the defective condition, you're welcome to continue, but there isn't any evidence to support your claims.

[KittyWampus]

35. Thanks for displaying your schoolyard rhetoric once again. A valid point was raised in the OP

and all you've got is nonsense.

It's not about defending a corporation, it's about finding out what is actually happening.

So you are the one with a prejudgement bias.

[TexasObserver]

44. Not rhetoric. Informed logic.

[KittyWampus]

48. Informed logic= mass delusion & driver error has played a part in problems in the past

similar to what's going on with Toyota now. So it MAY have a part in what going on with Toyota.

Your responses= NO IT'S NOT! NO IT'S NOT! NO IT"S NOT POOPIE HEAD!

The OP doesn't claim anything definitive.

[TexasObserver]

59. We'd better agree to disagree.

[yodoobo]

57. 1954 wasn't that long ago.

and people certainly haven't involved in such a short amount of time.

In fact, there are even some DU'ers who were walking the Earth during that era.

strange but true.

[TexasObserver]

58. I remember 1954. It was "that long ago."

If you're going to argue that the McCarthy era wasn't that long ago, that Brown v. Board of Education wasn't "that long ago," you're going to lose everywhere but a seniors' center.

[yodoobo]

60. nah. just a couple winks of the eye

Its a matter of perspective I guess.

In any event, human nature doesn't change in 4 decades. Probably not even 400 hundred decades.

[Chemisse]

65. Hey I was born that year!

And I am pretty young so . . .

[ibegurpard]

2. anyone remember shark attacks?

this is kind of like that

[Dr.Phool]

27. Oh shit!!!

I just saw a shark in the back seat of my Prius!

[LakeSamish706]

3. But hey, if your desparate and can get away with it, then Toyota has set itself

up to be the fall Corporation. They have known about this problem for some time and certainly could have come clean about it. So if they get done on a few of these cases, good on the ones that can do it.

I have no Sympathy for them if they get taken for a few bucks.

[Fumesucker]

14. Ah, the old "two wrongs make a right" theory.. n/t

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

15. They don't make "right", but they can make a windfall profit

but it's still fraud and can backfire.

still, if I had a Toyota ...

:rofl:

[Psephos]

4. Glad you posted this.

A crude but valid measurement of the level of social delusion is the emotional ferocity shown by the participants. On that basis, I'd rate it about an 8 on a scale of 10 (so far).

Here are some antidotes for the anecdotes.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4347704.html

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4348506.html

Not that it will make any difference. ;)

[greyl]

5. Those are great articles.

From the first one:

But the media, Congress—and personal-injury lawyers—smell the blood in the water. Not to diminish the injuries and a few deaths attributable to these very real mechanical problems, but they're statistically only a very small blip, which may explain why Toyota took so long to identify the issue, especially when it has symptoms similar to the similarly documented floor mat recall. Plus, sudden unintended acceleration (SUA) is notoriously difficult to diagnose because, more often then not, the problem can't be repeated in front of a mechanic. Let's not forget the Audi SUA episode back in the '80s; the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration eventually concluded that there was no mechanical problem. The culprit, as hard as this is to admit, was most likely driver error. To put the issue into context, in the last decade, there were about 24,000 customer complaints about SUA involving almost every major automaker. The NHTSA investigated fewer than 50.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4347704.html

[Psephos]

63. Check out post #62. n/t

[NYC_SKP]

6. That's a nice Prius - 2007 Touring edition. Has the nicer, bigger, wheels, better ride.

I've got one just like it, only silver.

But the seats suck. They do, they suck donkey.

:mad:

[PBS Poll-435]

8. That's what I hated about my 04 Prius

I had JBL audio, DVD Nav, Xenon headlights. All the bells and whistles....


But a manual seat with no friggin lumbar support.


It had to go. :-)





(After 36K miles, of course)

[NYC_SKP]

9. HEY!

So, you got another one?

I looked into changing seats, but that would screw with the airbags and warrantee.

I was going to put washers under the front mounts.

I used special seat pads for a while.

Then I finally got used to it, I broke the seat in, or they broke me in, not sure.

:hi:

[PBS Poll-435]

12. Got a Camry after that

With power and heated seats... :-)

[NYC_SKP]

13. I've had two Camrys. Love them. Sometimes wish I'd gotten a hybrid Camry instead...

but the storage in a prius is too important to give up.

I've fit ten foot lengths of lumber and pipe in there more than once, with the back door down.

Of course the front passenger seat has to go all the way down, but still...

[grantcart]

7. Or it could be that it follows the trend of people finding "foreign objects"

in their food at restaurants to be followed by law suits.

The last incident in San Diego occurred on a model that didn't have any prior sudden acceleration incidents and in a remote area of a freeway where the sudden "acceleration" could have been played out for 30 minutes without any possibility of a serious accident.

[TexasObserver]

10. No, incidents are getting great coverage NOW.

These rationalizations are the latest round of propaganda foisted by Toyota.

[greyl]

11. You're ignoring the data. Plus, since media coverage plays a huge part in collective delusion,

part of your statement is actually supporting the OP explanation, as well as the other links in the thread.

edit: clarity

[TexasObserver]

17. No, I'm ignoring propaganda that you're lapping up.

For years before Toyota finally admitted their product was at fault, we heard its supporters say "it's the mats!"

Now, we're hearing "they're doing it on purpose for the lawsuit!"

How many times do I have to explain that having a wreck doesn't produce a lawsuit worth any money UNLESS the driver is seriously injured? This whole meme is complete nonsense only believed by the biased and the gullible.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rucky]

16. We're still blaming the drivers - even after we know the problem.

So it stands to reason that we blamed the drivers even more before we knew the problem. Which is probably why the true cause of the acceleration didn't get reported as much before the problem was identified.

[TexasObserver]

18. The Toyota defenders cannot accept that it's the CAR!

They're in denial, even now.

[Tesha]

64. Do you figure that if you say it enough, we'll believe it? (NT)

[KittyWampus]

32. we know the problem? Did you collect your million dollars yet?

No, we don't know the problem yet.

[TexasObserver]

33. We know the problem is the CAR, not the drivers.

Are you still trying to defend the indefensible?

Even Toyota has admitted they have a major problem that is causing wrecks.

[Romulox]

20. I've never seen people contort logic to defend a multinational corp. as they have with this one.

It's disgusting.

[Dreamer Tatum]

26. So your problem is with a corporation, not a car. Noted.

But YOU'D never contort logic, would you? Oh nooooooooo. Not youuuuuu.

[Romulox]

28. My problem is the anti-people, pro-corporation contagion that has infected the USA.

You've got it in spades. :hi:

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Romulox]

38. Right now, my problem is with a poster who doesn't understand how back and forth works.

You need to work on coalescing your own thoughts before telling others what they think. :hi:

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Romulox]

41. And only a very wise man (such as yourself, naturally!) can fling crap on an internet message board!

It's a very interesting point you make, but I'm not interested in playing your infantile namecalling game today. :hi:

[greyl]

36. Uh, who are Toyota's competitors? Other corporations!

Who owns GM?

[Romulox]

37. Right. But the OP categorically would not have written an OP defending GM like this...

:hi:

[greyl]

39. Hasty conclusion. You have no way of knowing that.

Plus, the OP article isn't trying to exonerate Toyota, only paint a fuller picture of the situation.

edit: spling

[KittyWampus]

42. the responses to the OP remind me of the Microsoft/Apple animosity. Plus add in

the usual knee-jerk anti-corporate response along with the DU'er who thinks they are way more informed than they actually are.

I appreciate the OP and wonder if mass delusion does have a part in all this.

In the end, corporations often aren't good citizens and have no conscience regarding their output, so it's easy to automatically dump on them.

[greyl]

45. Agreed. nt

[Romulox]

43. Nope. Actually it's an observation drawn from my several years of experience here on DU.

"Plus, the OP article isn't trying to exonerate Toyota, only paint a fuller picture of the situation."

Read this entire thread, and you'll see that this is an emotional, rather than a rational, argument. Neither the OP nor any posts to this thread contain any new facts or analysis, that I can see. The Tatum fellow is desperate for a sparring partner over this issue.

[KittyWampus]

46. The OP and myself have exhibited no emotion. The fact you and other DU'ers can't imagine that

other psychological factors may be effecting what's going on is proof.

Stop projecting your own problem onto others.

Mass delusion may not explain the entire phenomenon but it may be playing a part.

[Romulox]

49. To me, jumping into somebody else's subthread is a big clue that somebody is spoiling for a fight.

"The fact you and other DU'ers can't imagine that other psychological factors may be effecting what's going on is proof."

How in the name of anything that's rational can you claim to know what I can "imagine"? :silly:

[greyl]

47. If Beckerhead had rear-ended Harry Reid's wife while driving a Prius

and blamed it on Toyota, would it be fair for me to accuse you of defending Glenn Beck if you believed his story?

[Romulox]

50. I think that hypothetical is too tenuous for me to answer honestly....

I think the answer is *supposed* to be "no"... :shrug"

In support of my previous argument, I will point out a new entrant to this thread who has jumped into this subthread to offer psychological analysis of that applies to anyone who disagrees with him! :silly:

[greyl]

52. I don't. Plus, it's a rhetorical question anyway.

The answer is, you would suddenly consider the possibility that a human (though the definition is stretched to include Beck) might not be totally honest all of the time.

[Romulox]

53. I *hate* being told what *I* think. I don't understand what that accomplishes. nt

[greyl]

54. Who doesn't? nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

25. Maybe they should change the name to the Toyota Forer Effect nt

[Dr.Phool]

30. I'll wait until the evidence is in.

I bought my wife a new Prius two years ago, and we love it.

However, Toyota's conduct, that is now coming to light, leaves a lot to be desired. Whenever they had known problems and complaints over the last several years, instead of fixing them, they sent their hired ex-regulators to Washington to intercede.

[greyl]

51. Fabulous idea, waiting for the evidence. nt

[onenote]

55. there are many factors at work

comparing incidents reported to the NHTSA last year v. this year may not be a particularly accurate measure since incidents that may have only been reported to a dealer or mechanic a year ago are more likely to be reported to NHTSA this year. I don't have the figures, but my understanding is that there were many more incidents reported to dealiers/mechanics in the past couple of year than were reported to NHTSA. In addition, while some of the claims today may reflect human error being blamed on a problem with the car, it is also possible, and indeed likely, that in previous years a number of incidents that were the result of a problem with the car were dismissed as the result of human error.

[yodoobo]

56. Its a virtual certainty that in SOME of the cases this is true.

The one that comes to mind is the guy in California who put the phone down everytime he was told to put it in neutral and his car had the problem a day after he had a disagreement with the Toyota dealership.


Mass hysteria always drives more mass hysteria. Thats just how people work.

But is it the case in all of these? No. Its clear to everyone that Toyota does have a problem.

[TexasObserver]

61. I agree that it is virtually certain someone will try a scam on it.

I believe those will be few compared to the real incidents, and we should be slow to assume that any person drives down the highway at 90 mph with a policeman beside them (watching them stand on the brakes as they smoke down) as part of a scam.

I would suggest that any such bogus claims will likely be at lower speeds and will not involve any call to 9-11 or any police car running alongside.

[Psephos]

62. The recent California incident was a hoax. The driver was looking for $$$.

From the article below:

Sikes (the driver) and his wife Patty in 2008 filed for bankruptcy and are over $700,000 in debt. Among their creditors is Toyota Financial Services for a lease on a 2008 Toyota Prius, with value at time of bankruptcy of $20,494. The Jalopnik Web site shows a copy of Toyota's secured claims form, though when Jalopnik questioned Sikes by e-mail he denied being behind on his Prius payments.

Sikes also has a history of filing insurance claims for allegedly stolen items that are slowly coming to light. In 2001 he filed a police report with the Merced County Sheriff's Department for $58,000 in stolen property, including jewelry, a prosumer mini-DV camera and gear, and $24,000 in cash, according to Fox40 in Sacramento. His bankruptcy documents show a 2008 payment of $7,400 for an allegedly stolen saxophone and clothes.

For what it's worth, Sikes owned and operated a Web site called AdultSwingLife.com. More salacious material on this man will continue to pour in.

Read the whole article to see how blisteringly irresponsible the "reporting" on this story was, and how the physical evidence clearly reveals the scam.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/12/toyota-autos-hoax-media-opinions-contributors-michael-fumento.html

[Chemisse]

66. It's hard to imagine

It's hard for me to imagine a situation in which someone thinks they are in a runaway car, and yet they are not. Unless if they have cruise control on and don't put their foot on the brake at all. That would be pretty stupid.

Maybe people are more likely to report it because of the attention it has received.