"It's time we had gulags, debtors' prisons and walled-off ghettos!"

[Matsubara]

I mean, if we're going to talk about regressive, give-more-to-the-rich "flat tax" gimmicks, continuing the illegal occupation, or school vouchers here, as though these were not radical, right-wing schemes, why not bring in the whole Dickensian/1930's fascist/soviet lot of "solutions to (high) society's problems?


Or is giving more to the rich at the expense of the already destitute not violent enough to be seen in the same light?

Why is it that we look at policies designed to enrich the elites at the expense of the poor as being something other than violence?

In fact, I believe Obama was recently ridiculed by the right-wing media for suggesting that outsourcing was a form of violence not so far removed from the VT killings.

I agree with Obama. The fact that there are no corpses and pools of blood doesn't change the fact that the whole Corporate political agenda is geared towards destroying livelihoods and thus impoverishing and destroying homes.

If the underclass were to do to the overclass what it has been doing through "legal" means over the last 2 decades, we would be in a LOCKDOWN right now.

I want to join with the DUers who are dismayed that there are people pushing 1920's gilded age ideas here. The next thing we'll be returning to the days of company scrip at the company store.

[frankenforpres]

1. why the flat sales tax hyperbole?

im not for it, but i dont think people are insane if they support it. the people that support it do not want food and clothing hit with the tax, so i dont believe it is very regressive after that. Why stifle the debate, let's see a real debate.



"I believe Obama was recently ridiculed by the right-wing media for suggesting that outsourcing was a form of violence not so far removed from the VT killings."


If Barack said this, I am disappointed.

[Matsubara]

4. This is the most over-the-top post I've ever done, I know...

But there is something so unbelievably backward about the flat tax ideas that it really sticks in my craw.

The progressive income tax was instituted for a reason - to help ameliorate a serious imbalance in the fortunes of Americans.

That progressivity has been systematically worn down for 3 decades now, and there are people now, ostensibly in our party, the party of the New Deal, talking about doing away with that progressivity altogether. The day that elected democrats become a party to something that evil will be the day I am done with the party for good. NAFTA was about as much as I could swallow.


"im not for it, but i dont think people are insane if they support it."

Well, technically, being a republican doesn't make one insane either. I'm not really talking about sanity. There is nothing Democratic about flat-tax gimmicks. They're plutocratic.



I wasn't disappointed by Obama's comments because I understood them. The timing and sensitivity were questionable, but this IS a form of violence against the American people. It's time we started to recognize it, instead of just nodding our heads with mild disappointment every time the news tells us another 5000 have been laid off, then going about our business.

[Richard Steele]

8. As someone who has only TRULY "connected" with other DUers via massive amounts of HYPERBOLE...

.....I understand, and I feel yer pain.

Do -NOT- quote me on that; I'm not terribly well-liked around here,
and few DUers will think that my agreement is a point in your favor.

Just sayin'.

[arendt]

19. Hyperbole is where its at these days at DU...

the most recommended post I ever had compared Barack and Hillary to
Clarence Thomas. It was a food fight, that eventually got shut down by
the moderator.

I agree with Matsubara - K&R!

These proposals are not "Democratic Party" proposals. They are
anti-middle class, anti-working class.

The powers-that-be have spent decades demonizing any economic
theory other than Robber Baronism. Foremost among the theories
under assault is the progressive income tax. It is only via a progressive
tax that the super-rich can be forced to pay something resembling
the benefits they receive from the government.

The rich file something over 70% of all lawsuits. The rich run the
"million gets a billion" lobbying rackets that give them hundreds
of billions of dollars of Corporate Welfare every year.

And the solution to this is a flat tax? Donne moi une break!

arendt

[HCE SuiGeneris]

26. You're all good in my book...

just saying

[qdemn7]

9. Here's my idea..

Roll All Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid in the Income Tax.

Institute Single Payer National Health Care.

Eliminate ALL hidden taxes, (Excise Taxes and the like) except for taxes on fuel, alcohol, tobacco.

Eliminate ALL deductions except a standard deduction for each person. Yes I mean the mortgage deduction, too. Why should someone buying a house get a deduction when those living in an apartment don't?

THEN institute a Flat Tax, allowing for an adjustment each fiscal year as needed.

All this would let people know exactly how much tax they are paying each year. And would eliminate the suspicion they are paying more than their neighbor.

[Matsubara]

11. Oh, thank you SOOO much for your post

What a lovely idea.

America's billionaires thank you for the MASSIVE tax cut you're offering them.

[Sapphire Blue]

2. K&R & thank you.

I'll repost my comments from another thread...

I've also seen the lovefest for Gravel since the 'debate'. It made me realize just how ill-informed voters can be.

Those who are informed in regard to his tax plan, yet still look to him as some sort of savior? Well, that explains the lack of regard for social & economic justice issues that comes from a certain faction.

$600 or $800/mo. Rent. Utilities. Food. Medicine. Transportation. Clothing. On $600 or $800/mo?!?!?! How in God's name, in the United States of America, can a person be expected to live on so little? Why in God's name can't people understand how much it hurts to be left out, to be forgotten, to be fucking invisible to so many people? Why aren't people out in the streets, demanding justice for all?

repubs hold raygun & ghouliani up as two of their heroes, and actually admire what they've done to this country.

Dems used to hold Dr. King & Bobby Kennedy up as heroes. Many of us still do. Others... too young? Too yuppiefied? Too comfortable in their own lives & can't seem to be bothered by someone else's misfortune? What the hell happened? Is it really going to take another Great Depression to wake people up? It just doesn't seem to be enough to point out that it could happen to them; they know that it can. It seems that it has to happen to them for them to finally get it.

*** sigh ***

[Selatius]

3. Unfortunately, I think people are willing to try any solution to get away from the current tax code

The current code, as it stands, is a labyrinthian construct with no clear driving principle beyond apparent ad hoc tax credits/breaks for various special interests.

I wouldn't mind if somebody abolished the current tax code and re-instituted a progressive tax code with multiple brackets where the highest brackets are aimed at those who make the most. If it had no tax credits, then there should be an exemption on income up to, for instance, 18,000/year. Any dollar earned after that point, at least at the federal level, would have a percentage of it taxed to some degree.

[Matsubara]

6. My proposal from that other thread...

Capital gains tax back to 1980 levels.

$6000 exemption for each dependent, all mortgage interest on first home only deductible.

No tax on income from $0 to $18,000

10% tax on income from $18K to $25K

15% tax on income from $25K to $35K

25% tax on income from $35K to $70K

30% tax on income from $70K to $300K

50% tax on income from $300K to $1 million

60% tax on income from $1 million to $10 million

70% tax on all income above $10 million


Simple. Fair. It's similar to what worked well in the 1960s, when the US had widespread prosperity and a GROWING middle class.


People today are shocked at the idea of a 70% bracket, but it was a reality in Kennedy's time. And it's important to remember that the 70% is only on the income ABOVE that threshold, not on all income.


I think a lot of people incorrectly believe that the rich actually pay 35% of their income in income taxes, when most pay much, much less than that.

[Selatius]

7. At the start of Kennedy's term, I believe the top bracket was around 94 percent.

Kennedy had it lowered into the 70s.

[Selatius]

10. Also, I would institute a 70 percent estate tax (death tax in Repub parlance).

Under current federal law, estates with values greater than 2,000,000 are taxed at 55 percent. Increase it to 70 percent. In 2009, the exemption will float up to 3,500,000. In 2010, if Bush's estate tax cuts are allowed to expire, the pre-2001 estate tax reconstitutes, and the exemption will fall back to 1,000,000.

Obviously, the exemption should be raised to avoid hitting smaller estates. 1,000,000 is not a lot of money.

[Greyhound]

14. The problem with this, as we have already seen, is that as soon as you start

adding complications and deductions, the rules will be manipulated to avoid the tax. There is a flat tax that would work, but nobody that counts has ever even discussed it, let alone proposed it.

The separation and distinction between this type of income or that type of income is when the accountants go to work.

Of course, replacing income tax with sales tax is the worst of all.

To your OP, we are already so close, I'm sure it's only a matter of time...

[meldroc]

25. ++ on this!

The flat tax is an idiotic idea. It's actually anti-democratic, and has the effect of accelerating the concentration of wealth in the top 0.5%, while everyone else loses out.

On top of Matsubara's progressive income tax, I would also suggest rolling back NAFTA, CAFTA, WTO "free trade" treaties and implementing say a 10% tariff on all imported goods and services, including outsourced labor. Not so high that it makes international trade impossible or unprofitable, but enough to make it more economical in many cases to keep manufacturing and labor in the U.S. The current trend of outsourcing labor and manufacturing to the country with the cheapest slave labor has destroyed much of America's manufacturing base, and wiped out a huge amount of the decent-paying jobs in this country. If this continues, the only jobs left will be in the service sector, saying "Welcome to Wal-Mart." or "Would you like fries with that?"

While we're at it, start enforcing the anti-trust laws again. Add to them by implementing a law making it illegal to hold more than say 30% of the market in a particular industry. If a company has more than 30% marketshare, it is required that they take action such as spinning off divisions into separate companies so that the result is that no company has more than 30% marketshare. No more monopolies, PERIOD!

[Matsubara]

5. Dr. King and Bobby, but please don't forget FDR and JFK...

But thanks for the K&R. ANy show of support is appreciated as posting this was a bit risky.

I know the connect between blood & guts violence and economic violence is hard for a lot of people to grasp, especially for people whose only experience of hardship was those few years in college when they waited tables and lived in a studio apartment to supplement the monthly stipend from mom & dad.

[ToeBot]

12. There are those that don't want to admit we are in the midst of a class war

More to the point they don't want to acknowledge the Democratic Party's complicity. The decline of labor unions and the rise of corporate influence didn't take place without (many) Democrats being co-opted. I'm not surprised that many are uncomfortable characterizing the struggle in violent terms, it smacks of Leninist or Maoist rhetoric.

[Greyhound]

15. Bingo! There it is, another that dares to call it what it is.

Thanks.

[qdemn7]

16. Class War??

It's not just the rich vs. the poor. It's white collar vs. blue collar. It's big city vs. small town.

I see lots of posts denigrating those people who live in a suburban or rural area.

I see lots of posts denigrating those without a college education.

[Matsubara]

17. Those are just words.

White collar, blue collar, suburban, city, country, educated and just skilled, these goups are all being skillfully played against each other by the one group that always, always comes out ahead.

And they are the smallest group, in terms of numbers.

And it is they, the super-rich who are at war with the rest of us. You talk of insults between other groups, but none of the groups you mentioned has looted trillions of dollars over the last few decades from the rest via privatization, tax cuts, stock profits/stock oprions made through anti-american outsourcing, and of course, the old favorite union-busting.

The first salvos of the Class war were fired 25+ years ago by the Reaganites, and we still get cowed when they accuse US of fomenting one. It's time the real silent majority stopped being silent.

[mainegreen]

20. Yes.

Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes.


Yes.

[Sherman A1]

13. My questions are

after the uber-rich have all the money, then what?

Do they win?


How much do they need?

[formercia]

18. and the veterans of the military that survive the wars of conquest

won't be a threat when they return, at least not for long. They're already dying from DU poisoning.

[Jcrowley]

21. Flat tax works only

on a flat earth.



K&R

[Matsubara]

22. Thank you - SO. MUCH.

To everyone who has had a positive response to this thread, you have no idea how much it has meant to me. I was expecting to get flamed/trashed/locked for this, but there are more people here who "get it" than I gave DU credit for. The responses honestly made me tear up.

It's about a lot more than just the tax code, but the tax code it emblematic of what it is all about for a lot of us - class struggle.

I hadn't put it into those words, but that's what it is. Are we or are we not beyond pretending that the US is a classless society anymore?

Maybe as a symbol of that awareness, we would all start treating our overpaid superiors appropriately, and instead of calling them "Brad" or whatever first name they insist on, and call them "Mr. Gottbucks, sir" until there is some semblance of pay parity?

Ah, but no, the wealthy are attached to the pretense of us all being in the same boat, aren't they?

[Sapphire Blue]

23. This should encourage you - Sen. Webb not only gets it, but calls it what it is...

Jim Webb: Class Struggle - American workers have a chance to be heard. (Call 1-800-459-1887)

Class Struggle
American workers have a chance to be heard.
BY JIM WEBB
Wednesday, November 15, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST

The most important--and unfortunately the least debated--issue in politics today is our society's steady drift toward a class-based system, the likes of which we have not seen since the 19th century. America's top tier has grown infinitely richer and more removed over the past 25 years. It is not unfair to say that they are literally living in a different country. Few among them send their children to public schools; fewer still send their loved ones to fight our wars. They own most of our stocks, making the stock market an unreliable indicator of the economic health of working people. The top 1% now takes in an astounding 16% of national income, up from 8% in 1980. The tax codes protect them, just as they protect corporate America, through a vast system of loopholes.

(snip)

This ever-widening divide is too often ignored or downplayed by its beneficiaries. A sense of entitlement has set in among elites, bordering on hubris. When I raised this issue with corporate leaders during the recent political campaign, I was met repeatedly with denials, and, from some, an overt lack of concern for those who are falling behind. A troubling arrogance is in the air among the nation's most fortunate. Some shrug off large-scale economic and social dislocations as the inevitable byproducts of the "rough road of capitalism." Others claim that it's the fault of the worker or the public education system, that the average American is simply not up to the international challenge, that our education system fails us, or that our workers have become spoiled by old notions of corporate paternalism.

(snip)

More troubling is this: If it remains unchecked, this bifurcation of opportunities and advantages along class lines has the potential to bring a period of political unrest. Up to now, most American workers have simply been worried about their job prospects. Once they understand that there are (and were) clear alternatives to the policies that have dislocated careers and altered futures, they will demand more accountability from the leaders who have failed to protect their interests. The "Wal-Marting" of cheap consumer products brought in from places like China, and the easy money from low-interest home mortgage refinancing, have softened the blows in recent years. But the balance point is tipping in both cases, away from the consumer and away from our national interest.

The politics of the Karl Rove era were designed to distract and divide the very people who would ordinarily be rebelling against the deterioration of their way of life. Working Americans have been repeatedly seduced at the polls by emotional issues such as the predictable mantra of "God, guns, gays, abortion and the flag" while their way of life shifted ineluctably beneath their feet. But this election cycle showed an electorate that intends to hold government leaders accountable for allowing every American a fair opportunity to succeed.

With this new Congress, and heading into an important presidential election in 2008, American workers have a chance to be heard in ways that have eluded them for more than a decade. Nothing is more important for the health of our society than to grant them the validity of their concerns. And our government leaders have no greater duty than to confront the growing unfairness in this age of globalization.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id...

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Sapphire%20Bl...

Again, thank you for your OP, Matsubara!

[Jcrowley]

24. Forbes wants a flat tax

That should tell everyone a thing or two huh?