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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 03:24 PM
Original message
Greece loses EU voting power in blow to sovereignty
Greece loses EU voting power in blow to sovereignty

The European Union has shown its righteous wrath by stripping Greece of its vote at a crucial meeting next month, the worst humiliation ever suffered by an EU member state.

By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, International Business Editor
Published: 7:56PM GMT 16 Feb 2010

The council of EU finance ministers said Athens must comply with austerity demands by March 16 or lose control over its own tax and spend policies altogether. It if fails to do so, the EU will itself impose cuts under the draconian Article 126.9 of the Lisbon Treaty in what would amount to economic suzerainty.

While the symbolic move to suspend Greece of its voting rights at one meeting makes no practical difference, it marks a constitutional watershed and represents a crushing loss of sovereignty.

"We certainly won't let them off the hook," said Austria's finance minister, Josef Proll, echoing views shared by colleagues in Northern Europe. Some German officials have called for Greece to be denied a vote in all EU matter until it emerges from "receivership".

More at:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financ...
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gulfcoastliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. No wonder only Ireland allowed citizens to vote on Lisbon Treaty/eu "constitution"
I'm sure the "yes" vote was rigged for the second election. No way would the people of Ireland be allowed to reject the treaty a 2nd time.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Well the EU is a little ticked off,
and as it turns out Italy may be in the same predicament, so this could get bigger.

Ireland isn't doing very well either.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. why for heavens sakes, what a surprise! i thought ireland was just recently the poster child for
neoliberal economic models.

jeepers, you mean it doesn't work?
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. The EU wlll survive,
as it has many other problems.

Whole world is in a financial crisis, not just the US ya know.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. yes, i know. but you seem to have missed my point.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Which is?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. ireland was recently touted as a "miracle" of neo-lib economics.
neo-lib economics = fraud.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Um, the whole world was booming then,
so naturally they were too.

Like I said, it's a world financial crisis.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. um, you still miss the point. possibly because you have insufficient background.
Edited on Wed Feb-17-10 04:37 PM by Hannah Bell
ireland's "boom" was bigger than any other country in the eu & this was attributed to its low corporate tax rate; lower than other countries in the eu.

it basically served as a low wage, low tax manufacturing platform for the eu as a whole, & for uk/us industries as well.

now the boom is over, & ireland is in worse shape than most of the eu.

i was aware of the world financial crisis long before you told me, twice, thanks all the same.

ireland is now the second most unequal country is europe where the distribution of wealth is concerned; its "prosperity" went mostly to the top.


Tuesday July 14 2009

IRELAND has moved from having the second lowest unemployment rate among the EU-15 countries two years ago to the second highest, calculations from the OECD show.

Joblessness has risen faster in Ireland than anywhere else, reflecting the sudden collapse of the building boom.

The 11.7pc rate recorded for May is 85pc higher than the average for last year.

Among OECD countries, Ireland is followed by Spain, with a 64pc increase, and the USA, where the jobless rate is 62pc higher than a year ago.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Ireland was booming same as everyone else.
Ireland is now in a crisis, same as everyone else.

That is true for every country in Europe, and also for the US. There is nothing unique about Ireland's economy.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. uh, no, it was "booming" more. mainly from off-shored industry moving to its low-wage,
Edited on Wed Feb-17-10 04:48 PM by Hannah Bell
low-tax environs.

not that i expect you to acknowledge it.


What happened to Ireland in 2008?

What a difference a year makes! Between 1994 and 2007, Ireland had the highest annual GDP growth rate among the 17 comparator countries. In 2008, the Irish economy contracted by 2.7 per cent. Ireland is reeling from the global economic crisis and a meltdown in its domestic property market and construction sector. Ireland became the first EU country to fall into a recession in 2008.

Irelands fall from grace, however, should not detract from the real gains that it has made in its standard of living. In the 1970s, Irelands level of income per capita was the lowest among the peer countries. In the 1990s, however, its economy was ignited by foreign investment in high-tech industries. Ireland thus transformed itself from one of the poorest countries in western Europe to one of the wealthiest.

http://www.conferenceboard.ca/HCP/Details/Economy/gdp-g... .


please note that the wealth of a country doesn't map with the wealth of its citizens. ireland's poverty rate is still among the highest in the eu.

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:UkKuV2Xg2l4J:www.g...

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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I have no idea what your problem is with Ireland,
or capitalism or whatever it is you're on about here, but the topic is Greece losing it's vote.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. i don't have any problems with ireland. i think you must be talking to the person in your own head.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Greece. Vote.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. excuse me, but you're the one who decided you wanted to debate my comment.
if you're finished, just stop.

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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I have no interest in Ireland, or what you're calling
'neo-liberal' economics.

I'm talking about Greece and the EU.

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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. To be accurate, you were the first to mention "Ireland isn't doing very well"
in reply #2, and HB replied to you on the topic of Ireland's economy. That was after another poster mentioned the referendum in Ireland, but not the economy. HB's replies seem on topic for the sub-thread, to me.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. No, several of them aren't.
They are called PIIGS...Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Huh? Did you mean to put this reply somewhere else?
'Them'? There's nothing in the plural in my post. Or in yours before that.

So what does "several of them aren't" mean? Aren't what?
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Why is it so difficult to post a simple news item here???
There are several countries in trouble...Ireland is only one...they are collectively called PIIGS.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. But you told us you aren't interested in Ireland
Should we just ignore those posts in which you try to say Ireland isn't the topic, and go back to it now?
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Is English anyone's first language here?
I said several countries...2 of which were Italy and Ireland. Collectively they're known as PIIGS

The one in trouble today is Greece...the actual topic here.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. So, after being interested in Ireland in posts 2 to 16, then uninterested from #20 to #25
then being interested again in #32 and #37, you're now switching back to saying we shouldn't discuss Ireland at all?

I don't think you have any right to question someone else's English when you introduced a 'them' in post #32 that had no reference to any plural earlier in the sub-thread.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. I've been here too long for hazing. Give it up.
:rofl:
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Not gonna happen.
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Imajika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
63. You are correct Hannah...
I just want you to know I got what you were saying about Ireland right from the beginning, and you are quite correct ;)

That back and forth sure did turn into a real train wreck eh?

Lol, sometimes sarcasm and a quick bit of witty banter just don't work on internet forums. Can end up with 2 people who may not even disagree on completely different wavelengths.
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smiley_glad_hands Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
65. Pay no mind, this person has an agenda.
What it is, i haven't a clue, but i'm sure it involves pro china economics.
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Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. Why would a country even want to be a part of a supranational organization like the EU?
Why would you want to give up your sovereignty to a bunch of power-hungry globalization pushers in Brussels? Makes no sense to me.

What is the actual benefit of belonging to the EU? Anyone? Bueller?
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. ?? Same reason all your states united!
Better off together than separate.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. and , combined, their size & clout was bigger than the US....but
Edited on Wed Feb-17-10 04:18 PM by SoCalDem
now that everyone is pinched financially, it may all crumble into petty squabbles..

People will gladly share their pie, when there's a LOT of pie, but when it's down to that last slice, they no longer want to share
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Anything's possible, but we've been thru
tough times before.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
11. Perhaps the EU admitted too many countries, too quickly
There are MANY countries that have many monetary problems, and those chickens are coming home to roost... The EU many not be around much longer if they can't come to grips with the money-issues..
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Been putting it together for half a century.
Can't go much slower, countries are lined up to join.
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Don Caballero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
17. The European Union will have its ups and downs
but in the end the unity of the countries will make it a stronger bloc. The United States should look into forming a union with Mexico and Canada. That would help the economy without question.
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
18. could cause the EU to unravel if Greece tells EU to jump up their ass.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. EU won't unravel over one country.
At the moment they're trying to ascertain the damage.
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roamer65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
26. Greece needs to leave the currency union.
Edited on Wed Feb-17-10 05:05 PM by roamer65
Greece is in desperate need of a currency devaluation and they cannot do it within the Eurozone 16.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
28. The Eurozone needs to continue political consolidation
The rest of the EU can dissolve. The European Union has too many small countries in it, and it has several, like the UK, which would rather see it fail.

Even the Eurozone might do well to trim its membership. Greece, Cyprus, and Malta, for instance.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. They're moving to Europa bit by bit.
The UK isn't in the eurozone.

Cyprus and Malta don't seem to have a problem, at least that we know about. It's the PIIGS that do.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Very, very difficult to separate a country from the Euro without destroying its economy
If it's separating because it's weak, you'll see a stampede to Euro-denominated banks in other countries that will make the Wall Street Crash look like a hiccough. Everyone will want their money held in banks that won't convert. Every Greek (or whereever) bank would go under.

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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. They did it before when the Euro came in.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. No, they joined them together; that's different
They had criteria for each economy behaving like the others, and converging rules on deficits, and target bands for the currency rates which contracted. So the economies and currencies became more and more stable, and then they froze the exchange rates.

For instance, Greece didn't join the Euro when it was created; it had to wait, because its economy wasn't in line with the others, at first: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/777035.stm

Doing it in reverse would need the economies to be behaving like each other. Since the whole point it that they're not, you can't do it. Announce the very first stage, and there'll be a rush to get out of the part perceived as weakest.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. It's been done step by step.
The UK doesn't use the Euro for example.

However Greece could be dumped in short order
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. No; no country has ever left the Euro
so it has never "been done step by step".

I've already explained that joining is done when the economies are a close match; dumping a country in trouble is completely different. It cannot just be done 'in short order'.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. LOL go strangle a vole.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. The UK never did use the Euro. It didn't pull out, 'step by step' or otherwise.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. I didn't say it did!!
I said they're building Europa step by step.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. You need to use less pronouns
because the closest thing to 'building Europa' was in reply #29 which no-one replied to. You can't say 'it' and expect us to know what noun in your many replies you are referring to.

Again, 'building Europa' is not the same as detaching a country from the Euro. It's almost the exact opposite.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Get that vole yet?
You sure haven't gotten how to follow a thread.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. You haven't a clue how to reply in one
It's notable that you've confused others with nonsensical replies in this thread as well. If you want people to take part in your threads, you're going to have to talk to people as if you're having a conversation with them, not sticking your replies and ideas at random all over it, and changing your mind constantly on what is the 'right' subject.
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
34. Ambrose Evans-Pritchard = RW tinfoil nutjob
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrose_Evans-Pritchard

Ambrose Evans-Pritchard (born 1957) is the international business editor of the Daily Telegraph. A long-time opponent of the EU's constitution and monetary union, he was the Telegraph's Europe correspondent in Brussels from 1999 to 2004.

During his time as the Sunday Telegraph's Washington bureau chief in the early 1990s, Evans-Pritchard became known for his controversial stories about President Clinton, the 1993 death of Vincent Foster, and the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing....

He is the author of The Secret Life of Bill Clinton (1997) which was published by conservative publishing firm Regnery Publishing. In this book, he elaborates on assertions that the Oklahoma City bombing was an FBI sting operation that went horribly wrong, that warnings by an ATF undercover agent were ignored, and that the Justice Department subsequently engaged in a cover-up.

During his time in Washington, his stories often attracted the ire of the Clinton administration, and on Evans-Pritchard's departure from Washington in 1997 a White House aide was quoted in George saying "That's another British invasion we're glad is over. The guy was nothing but a pain in the ass". The pain was felt most acutely in the Foster case, in which Evans-Pritchard was almost as much a player as he was a reporter. His efforts in ferreting out the witness, Patrick Knowlton, whose last name had been spelled "Nolton" in the Park Police report on Foster's death, resulted eventually in a lawsuit by Knowlton against the FBI and the inclusion of Knowlton's lawyer's letter as an appendix to Kenneth Starr's report on Foster's death. In his book, Evans-Pritchard responded vigorously to White House charges against him.


:tinfoilhat:
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Look elsewhere then
After meetings this week in Brussels, the ministers made the usual expressions of "confidence" and "support" for Greece but said if the austerity plan targets aren't met, additional measures could be forced on Greece using a clause of the Lisbon Treaty. Greek policymakers would be excluded from the vote, they said.

Such a move would mark an unprecedented loss of sovereignty for Greece, since in effect other European finance ministers would be voting on Greek spending policies in which the Greek government would have no say.

http://imarketnews.com/node/8861

The EU ministers have reserved the right to impose new austerity policies on Greece by invoking a clause in the Lisbon Treaty that would deprive Athens of a vote on new measures proposed by the European Commission.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/0217/1...

The European Union has stepped up the pressure on Greece to get its financial house in order, threatening some serious penalties if George Papandreou's government doesn't toe the line.

Last night the Europe told Greece it would not be allowed to vote at an upcoming EU meeting and could lose control over its tax and spending policies if it fails to meet a 16 March deadline on cost-cutting.

http://www.citywire.co.uk/professional/-/news/wealth-ma...
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smiley_glad_hands Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #34
68. The OP is militantly Pro China. So it explains alot. eom
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
41. Misleading article title, by a loony writer
Edited on Wed Feb-17-10 06:56 PM by LeftishBrit
The EU are making austerity demands on Greece *as a condition for a bailout/ continued trading* and will deny Greece a vote at *one* meeting, which even the writer concedes is symbolic.

Some countries want to give Greece some financial help; some, mainly Germany, don't, and are insisting on tough conditions for their agreeing to do so.

Ambrose Evans-Pritchard is loony-right even by the standards of the Torygraph, and tends to blame absolutely everything bad in the USA on Clinton, and absolutely everything bad in the UK or Europe on the eeeeevil EU. (The EU has loads of faults as an organization, but Evans-Pritchard regards it in pretty much the way that the American far Right regards the UN.)

What is happening to Greece is bad, but we should not believe all of Evans-Pritchard's hysterics. On this subject or any other.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Focus on Greece, FGS, and stop worrying
about the writer.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Then I suppose it would be perfectly OK to quote Sarah Palin or Rush Limbaugh as an authority?
Greece is in a bad position.

The other EU countries, who are mostly in a just slightly less bad position, want to give Greece as little financial help as possible.

They also worry about being let down over trade agreements with Greece.

They are mostly being as selfish as you would expect of countries that are themselves teetering in a recession.

But no one is interested in 'stripping Greece of its sovereignty' as part of some evil plot.



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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. You missed it in the other news then?
After meetings this week in Brussels, the ministers made the usual expressions of "confidence" and "support" for Greece but said if the austerity plan targets aren't met, additional measures could be forced on Greece using a clause of the Lisbon Treaty. Greek policymakers would be excluded from the vote, they said.

Such a move would mark an unprecedented loss of sovereignty for Greece, since in effect other European finance ministers would be voting on Greek spending policies in which the Greek government would have no say.

http://imarketnews.com/node/8861

The EU ministers have reserved the right to impose new austerity policies on Greece by invoking a clause in the Lisbon Treaty that would deprive Athens of a vote on new measures proposed by the European Commission.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/0217/1 ...

The European Union has stepped up the pressure on Greece to get its financial house in order, threatening some serious penalties if George Papandreou's government doesn't toe the line.

Last night the Europe told Greece it would not be allowed to vote at an upcoming EU meeting and could lose control over its tax and spending policies if it fails to meet a 16 March deadline on cost-cutting.

http://www.citywire.co.uk/professional/-/news/wealth-ma ...
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. Most of this is about threats and arm-twisting - not that Greece has already lost sovereignty
The whole thing is very worrying, but little point is gained by sensationalizing it. The other articles you post are much more to the point.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Depends on what happens next I guess
I pick articles based on how much info they have packed into a single item

If it's news, it's news...doesn't matter who writes it.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
44. Financial responsibility.--the very idea!. The American system, where we actually
reward the biggest looters, is so much better
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #44
53. Yup, they have to behave or there are
consequences...severe ones apparently!
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
54. This is why alliances are dangerous
I wonder what palace intrigues are going on and what possible Greek kiss & tell investigations might come of this.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. LOL like the 'united states' for example?
That's an alliance.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. The history of Europe, not the Civil War really
Europe is the subject I'm referring to. And yes, the Civil War was hell come to earth.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
61. Okay, if nobody wants to be serious tonight,
we'll just leave this topic for now.

:eyes:

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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. DU kinda loses its shit
when economies and monetary policies come up. It is a subject most folks think they understand, yet rarely do.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
66. Now this is how bailouts should be dealt with - - not reaffirming the sovereignty of the corporation
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smiley_glad_hands Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
67. Why not have the chinese bail them out?
You seem to think they are the best thing since slice bread. I do enjoy your anti American rhetoric scattered throughout this post though. Very telling.
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