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Seems my taxpayer money will be sending many more to private schools....

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 12:07 AM
Original message
Seems my taxpayer money will be sending many more to private schools....
even religious ones. Doesn't appear I have a choice about it. My taxes are paying not only for charter schools in Florida, but now they are adding to the already existing vouchers for private schools.

Florida legislature to consider dramatic expansion of vouchers

They will probably get the expansion through. The media is not covering the use of public money going to private and religious institutions. They are totally silent on the issue.


Mary Lynne Duet teaches a class at Tampa Bay Christian Academy in Tampa. The school has 42 students on tax-credit vouchers, a program lawmakers have proposed expanding

About 25 of the 70 students at Gulf Coast Christian School in St. Petersburg have a big chunk of their tuition paid for by taxpayers, courtesy of a private-school voucher that's worth $3,950.

Plenty of other families want to enroll, but they can't afford the difference between the voucher and tuition, which ranges from $4,650 to $5,500.

"That's a frequent thing people say: 'I can't afford the rest of it,' " said principal Linda Smock.


Some lawmakers want that to change. And soon.

Under a comprehensive bill filed Wednesday — and with fair odds of getting bipartisan support — Florida lawmakers are poised to consider a dramatic expansion of the state's voucher program for low-income students, including upping the voucher's value.


I have heard that argument way too often. It is a misleading one...few families can afford full payment to private schools. It will only allow a few to go.

I don't want my money going to private schools or religious schools. I will be given no choice. My taxes are also going to charter schools which are not regulated and which are run by private companies.

I want my taxes to go for traditional public education. I am not given a choice.

There is not a good track record for many of the schools formed in Florida to get state money. One example is the principal who had once been tried for murder.

Of course no one in authority realized it because there was/is little oversight.

BARTOW -- The private-school principal accused of stealing state voucher money via the now defunct Faith Christian Academy had once been tried for the murder of her husband in Arkansas.
Betty Mae Jives Mitchell, then Betty Clark, and Louise Henry were accused in 1987 of poisoning Mitchell's former husband, Thomas Joseph Clark, with arsenic in Crittenden County, Ark. The trial ended in a hung jury, and the state dropped its case against the pair.

..."The group is accused of bilking the state voucher system, the federal school lunch program and a scholarship funding organization out of about $200,000


Though I firmly believe that public monies should not be benefiting religious institutions, it does not matter what I think.

It has gone so far that many religious schools are deliberately becoming charters to get access to taxpayer money to ease their financial problems

PALMETTO - Starting next school year, the Bibles, crosses and religious pictures will be removed from Palmetto Christian School.

In addition, the school will take on a new name and receive its funding from a new source: Florida taxpayers.

The K-8 school -- operating in the same building with most of the same leadership, staff and students it has now -- will become a charter school that could receive more than $1.7 million in state tax dollars.

The move was unanimously approved by the Manatee County School Board last week, despite contrary advice given by the board's own legal counsel. State law prohibits private schools, that fund themselves, from switching to charter schools that receive state money.


Palmetto Christian joins at least 7 former Catholic schools which are following suit. Public money will rescue their schools while our public schools go wanting for resources. The religious schools becoming charters to get public money apparently will also benefit by deriving income from their properties.

And so, the Archdiocese of Miami will begin its experiment with charter schools this fall. What was intended as a pilot program at one parish – Corpus Christi in Wynwood – will become, for financial reasons, the norm at seven more. Charters also will open in August where five other Catholic schools closed this June: Sacred Heart, Our Lady of Divine Providence in Sweetwater, St. Francis Xavier in Overtown, St. Stephen in Miramar and St. Clement in Fort Lauderdale.

A seventh charter will open at St. Malachy in Tamarac, which opted to close its school before its financial situation deteriorated further. And an eighth charter will open in Miami Gardens, in the building used by St. Monica School until it closed in May 2008.

Charter schools are free, funded by public dollars, so religion cannot be taught during the school day. Unlike traditional public schools, however, charter schools operate independently of the local school board and have more leeway in managing day-to-day operations.

Because the parishes are leasing their former school buildings to the charter schools, they are deriving income from the properties. The amount ranges between $150,000 and $350,000 this first year,
“depending on the size, capacity and condition of the facilities,” according to Fernando Zulueta, president of Academica, a company that provides management and support services for most of the charter schools opening on archdiocesan properties.


Florida and Georgia are trying to increase the vouchers to private schools as quickly as they can. I would imagine other states will be following suit.






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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. How much longer before Florida goes down the tubes.
Where it becomes too expensive to live there?
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EmeraldCityGrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'd move before I'd let my taxes subsidize religious schools.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 02:18 PM
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glinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
3. Citizens should demand a public vote or maybe you should really move.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Moving would accomplish nothing...the voucher movement is spreading.
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glinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Stuffing the Private Schools with kids will turn them into overcrowded pseudo-public
schools with Bibles. then they can just say "oh well, we will just have the Bibles in all schools". This is a ploy and a set up IMHO.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 09:02 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 05:10 AM
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yeah Ron Paul isn't going to be President
Edited on Thu Feb-11-10 05:19 AM by AllentownJake
As I look outside at two feet of snow, I'm happy I sacrifice 1% of my money to the township to pick up my trash and plow my road.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
7. Has any of this been run through the court system?
It might be, if you can find a cheap, sympathetic lawyer you could take this to court and get it overturned.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. FL teachers' union sued in 2008 to keep 2 dangerous items off ballot...
If I remember correctly, they won. These would have in effect opened the floodgates for public money to go to private religious schools. Now the state is having to be more "creative" to get the same thing accomplished.

Teachers' union to sue over two voucher amendments on the Florida ballot in November

These are two amendments that have been worded in a tricky way, and are actually meant to harm the public school system here in this state. Glad to see the teachers' union is fighting these amendments.

They are Amendments 7 and 9 and would actually strip parts of the Florida constitution.

Amendment 7 would repeal the "Blaine amendment," an old part of the Constitution that prohibits the use of tax dollars in support of religious institutions.

Amendment 9 would reverse a court ruling saying that Florida has an "exclusive" duty to run public schools. That would seem to mean that the state could use vouchers to educate kids, too.


Plus one form of vouchers was ruled unconstitutional.

"Journal Articles; Reports - Descriptive
Abstract:
A brief narrative description of the journal article, document, or resource. Florida's voucher program for students in the lowest-rated public schools is unconstitutional, the state supreme court ruled early January 2006 in a 5-2 decision that friends and foes of private school choice are scrutinizing for its potential impact on voucher debates nationwide. Chief Justice Barbara J. Pariente of the Florida Supreme Court wrote in the majority opinion that the vouchers violate the state constitution's provision that requires a "uniform" system of public schools for all students. The court sidestepped, however, the issue of whether the program violated the state's so-called "Blaine amendment" barring aid to religious institutions. In doing so, the justices appear to have effectively blocked an avenue of appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court by voucher supporters, who would like to challenge such language on federal legal grounds. The decision will likely force many of the roughly 700 students who attend private schools with state money under the program, known as Opportunity Scholarships, to look for other educational options after this school year. The statewide program has provided about $4,350 per child in tuition aid for eligible students to use at secular or religious private schools.

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ739311&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ739311

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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
8. SOmeone must open a Madrassas and see how that goes.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. Good thinking. I like it! nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 02:10 PM
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alp227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
40. There was a controversy over a Muslim-oriented charter school in Minnesota
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
11. Muslim School getting funding would fix that
Madrassas, like the poster above said. eom
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
12. "it does not matter what I think"
The Rock agrees with you.

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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
13. K&R . Thanks for highlighting the very sad trend. Privatizing public education. //nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 02:14 PM
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4_TN_TITANS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
15. Charter schools will be long expensive detour
down a destructive Conservative path.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 02:01 PM
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cjbgreen Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Durak think about this
Your heart is in the right place Durak, but think about this, what if those tax payer dollars were spent on really improving inner city schools? What if class sizes were reduced, teachers had adequate time to prepare lessons, after school programs were available, and all children had access to health care?

Another great thoughtful post by Madfloridian
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 02:27 PM
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JustAVet Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. Where is the money now?
If I'm understanding this, the money will be pulled from public schools and used to increase vouchers for private schools - is that right?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 05:56 PM
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JustAVet Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Thank you for the explanation
I would think that the fixed portion of each student allotment - physical plant, utilities, etc., would stay with the school, while the rest might go to the voucher.

The reason I asked is because of the post asking "What if..." on a number of issues. It seems to me that the money is already in the school system, and it is not reducing classroom size, increasing teacher pay, etc.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Yes, that is right.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. I taught over 30 years. Thanks for making my point about letting schools deteriorate
Yes, teaching is hard.

That is what I am saying...they are giving public money to other forms of education and letting public schools deteriorate.

You said:

"The states let the schools deteriorate so much... let some escape and have a better life. Those that don't will at least have less crowed rooms."

Heh, I assume you mean crowded.

But you did help my point.



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 02:29 PM
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 02:36 PM
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24. I get it.
And I am saying good-bye to you and updating my list. Life is too short for specious arguments that mean nothing.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 02:45 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 02:52 PM
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. You are also missing the point....
Those of us of other spiritual viewpoints do NOT want our kids indoctrinated in Christian schools.
There is supposed to be SEPARATION of Church and State.
WE, the taxpayers are NOT supposed to be supporting Churches.
Got it?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 03:57 PM
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cjbgreen Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Democracy Now discussion on charters
Edited on Thu Feb-11-10 04:29 PM by cjbgreen
Durak,
Thanks for keeping this conversation going and I agree it shouldn't be hostile, the topic is complex and too important to dismiss. I don't think tax dollars should be spent on for profit organizations running charter school or to pay for religious schools. Democracy Now has a great discussion. I do not believe that heads of schools should make three to four times as much as teachers. I also think that public schools still serve a more diverse student population and provide more options and that parents who attempt to send their children to charter schools are more likely to be positively involved in the charter schools. I also know that for many children large public schools are overwhelming, intimidating, and trigger responses that interfere with learning.
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/2/11/charter_study
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 04:45 PM
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Well I do not see a single pagan school getting any funding...
nor have I heard of any muslim schools etc being funded..so yes this certainly is an act that seems to be favoring the Christians only.

As to counting on the courts to uphold the law...I guess most of us realize by now that isnt going to happen anymore with the judges that are now in power.

the judges were at all honest that we have now..Americas government wouldnt have just been sold to the highest bidder. Under their last ruling...Corporations have the right to buy our representatives now.
Does that also strike you as maybe being a little wrong?

I am not hostile, I just refuse to let my hard earned money go to religious institutes that are against a lot of what I believe in.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 04:56 PM
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JustAVet Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. I wonder if any vouchers are going for Muslin or pagan schools?
Doesn't seem as though any accredited school could be denied the voucher funding.
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JustAVet Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Oops, just re-read and realized I wrote "Muslin" instead of "Muslim"
Too late to edit - my bad.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 08:27 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-12-10 12:09 AM
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-12-10 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #28
51. The long stated agenda of the right wing is to destroy public education . . .
and eliminate the Department of Education --

They've been open about it -- as open as they've been about destroying our "people's"

government!!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-12-10 02:18 AM
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
33. K & R
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
34. Time to sue...
separation of church and state, and all that shit.
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alp227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-11-10 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
41. Government bails out religious schools but not public ones.
They also bail out Wall Street but not Main Street. Notice something?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-12-10 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
46. Obama is also continuing support for "faith based religious organizations" -- !!!
I think we need a citizens class action lawsuit against this -- !!!

Or has that already been tried and I've just missed it?

This is yet another way to milk the government/taxpayer and destroy democracy!!

Grayson in 2012?



:evilgrin:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-12-10 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #46
53. He is enlarging these groups....empowering them more than Bush did.
There is still faith-based hiring and firing.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-12-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. Remember reading a few months back that Catholic Church was being investigated
for having used the funds given to them for their "faith-based" religions

to pay for their pedophile lawsuits.

Have to try to check on what happened with that--!!???

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-12-10 02:03 AM
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bandit599 Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-12-10 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
47. Lots to think about
That's a lot to think about.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-12-10 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
48. I've always been against vouchers, but when I look at the pic in the OP
I can't help but wish those students well. Sorry, but the public schools in Florida have failed a LOT of students, particularly minority students. Some of my cousins have gone through that system with horrible results. So good luck to those students. Hopefully the public schools can be fixed as well.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-12-10 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. The public schools didn't so much "fail" as they were destroyed by right wing . . .
and lack of funding --

As I understand it, there were times when the Federal Education budget contained

CIA funds for covert activities which amounted to 50% of the education budget!!

This was racism pure and simple which motivated this destruction!!

Racism and a desire by the elite that the masses NOT be properly educated except

to serve corporations.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-12-10 01:40 AM
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-12-10 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. The public schools are being systematically dismantled.
On purpose.

I wish all children well, but I do not want to pay for them to go to private school. I could never afford private school for my own kids on a teacher's salary.

I definitely do not want to pay for them to go to religious schools.

Public money should be used in secular ways.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-12-10 02:05 AM
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-12-10 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #52
59. IMO, this is simply more betrayal of the public trust by Obama ...
a lawyer who supposedly at one time taught the Constitution -- !!

:eyes:
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-12-10 04:51 AM
Response to Original message
57. Don't worry about it, most of your tax money goes to the military anyway.
And being tried for a crime is no crime - was the principal convicted?
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