I just want to get something straight

[AllentownJake]

In 1933, after the nation's economy imploded due to bad banking practices we got a tough commission that recommended sweeping financial reforms which were enacted and led to an explosion of the middle class, social security, and initiatives that strengthened organized labor and our political opponents called us socialist.

In 2010 after the nation's economy imploded due to previously banned banking practices that were banned after the 1930s crisis, we are getting a commission to look for ways to cut social security and medicare (two systems that Americans are directly taxed for and the money has been funneled to other projects for over 30 years), very weak ineffective financial industry reforms, and free trade agreements that are destroying organized labor and our political opponents are calling us socialist.

Might as well give them something to call us socialist over :shrug:

Just want to make sure I got that right.

[laughingliberal]

1. Sounds about right to me. Horrible but correct.

Any thoughts on why they would keep moving us closer to the cliff? I keep guessing at reasons but haven't settled on one yet.

[AllentownJake]

4. They are greedy and think they can

:shrug:

[asdjrocky]

2. Correct.

Questions?

[Orrex]

3. I think you're being grossly unfair

I mean, social security and medicare are both directly and principally culpable in the unrestrained and unregulated behavior of Wall Street for the past 10 years, so it's only fitting that they'd be the socialist programs to bear the brunt of the responsibility for the clean-up.

[ThomCat]

11. You're joking, right?

:shrug:

[Orrex]

40. Well, yeah.

:eyes:

I tried to make it unmistakably over-the-top crazy-obvious that I was joking, but here we are...

[WilliamPitt]

83. Sarcasm tags are your friend

:toast:

[Orrex]

88. Au contraire--sarcasm tags are the enemy

:toast:

[WilliamPitt]

27. Wha?

[inna]

48. humor? sarcasm? critical thinking?

:hi:

[Dr.Phool]

30. Say what?

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

[pangaia]

33. HUH!

HUH!!!! Teabagger, are ya?

[Gormy Cuss]

47. Damn straight. That's why we don't need the government butting into health insurance.

We need less socialism, not more.






n.b. Yes, like Orrex I'm kidding.

[tblue]

5. Obama knows this.

Doesn't he? Shouldn't he? I thought he was a student of past presidencies.

Unless, as soon as he was elected, someone representing the Powers That Be sat him down and said, "Now that we've let you win this thing, let me explain to you how the world really works....".

I can't think of why else he'd want to take this route you've described and not the one his supporters thought he'd take.

[AllentownJake]

6. Remember the trip to Canada

For assurances his NAFTA talk was campaign rhetoric in the primary, the FISA vote, and a whole host of other warning singles....

There wasn't a person from the democratic wing of the democratic party on the ballot in the primary with any money (and by democratic wing, I mean people who have a problem with thinking Ronald Reagan wasn't such a bad guy ideologically).

In order to win, you need money, in order to get money, you need to be what Roosevelt wasn't.

[saracat]

37. Perfect and succinct!

[unapatriciated]

72. I remember that well and was one of many reasons,He wasn't my guy in the primaries

[rhett o rick]

78. I am sure he is aware oh this. IMHO, he has no choice. He is being blackmailed by

wall street.

[Snow Bird]

7. Very well stated ATJ

I always enjoy your posts at OldElmTree.com. I guess I didn't realize you were here too. Big thumbs up dude.

[AllentownJake]

9. I cross post from time to time

The climate right now is calm enough here right now, where debate isn't being stifled by screaming and name calling. When that changes, I take a leave for a while.

[MadHound]

8. What, you expect him to look after America

When he is wanting to sacrifice more blood and treasure for this

[AllentownJake]

10. I saw that

had to leave that one alone. I want a definition of "win" and I also want a definition of "war"

Constitutionally, we are not at war.

[MadHound]

14. I'm with you on wanting some definition, though they'll not be coming

This president is going to rah-rah, win one for the team just like the last president.

You want a DoW, so do I. Haven't gotten a single one in my lifetime, and that's at least three major wars and God knows how many "skirmishes", "police raids" "rescues" and what not.

I grow more and more cynical as time goes on, we're going to go the way of many empires, spending our resources on empire abroad while neglecting the people at home. Republican, Democrat, it doesn't matter, war is their ultimate business. Eisenhower spilled the beans fifty years ago and the only reason he wasn't shot is because he was leaving office and knew far too much.

I am weary unto my soul of death and war, greed and avarice, in the highest offices in the land.

One good thing for the youngsters, they won't have that much invested in Social Security when it's taken away from them.

[AllentownJake]

16. The youngsters aren't going to have much of anything

and they are going to be very angry wanting to know why, my fear is what reason is given to them and what enemy most be punished for it.

[havocmom]

12. a-yup

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[ThomCat]

13. That is what our party has become, the ones who enact Republican goals.

:(

Republicans should for years about the need to do something unimaginable, like decimating social security or medicare. Or in the past it was Public Assistance, Bankruptcy laws, Free Trade laws, etc.

Then the Democrats come in behind them and actually do it, trying to prove to big business, "see, we have your interests at heart too."

Our party, the party that claims to represent the people, is the party that succeeds in doing what the republicans want. Our party throws people off of public assistance and increases poverty. Our part creates unrestrained globalization and opens the doors for jobs to be sucked out of the country. Our party rigs the bankruptcy rules so that people are fucked and corporations can take more of our money.

And now our part is going to do it again by proposing to destroy social security and Medicare, two of the Republican Party's biggest ambitions for the past few decades. :grr:

[TexasObserver]

15. Recommend

[jotsy]

17. I don't care what you call it, as long as it upholds the principles laid out in our

'foundational' documents, and I don't think we could be a whole lot further from what we're supposed to be.

Welcome back Mr. Jake.

[tomm2thumbs]

18. K&R

[nashville_brook]

19. good to see you again ATJ -- absolutely correct.

anyone who isn't concerned by the swipes at SS and Medicare, isn't paying attention.

[AllentownJake]

20. The funny thing

Is when this was being discussed 2 months ago, everyone who brought it up was a liar trying to smear the administration.

[Dr.Phool]

31. Amazing how many Republican policies can be implemented

When Democrats hold power.

[Jakes Progress]

35. It took nixon to go to china

It took this administration to go neocon.

[saracat]

38. Ain't that the truth? And some still do!

[DisgustedInMN]

21. Seems to sum up..

.. current policies fairly correctly.

[bvar22]

22. I don't care what label is attached.

I joined THIS "Democratic Party" 42 years ago:

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being."--FDR

If the "Democratic Party" no longer STANDS for the above values,
then I'm in the wrong party.

[Fire1]

23. I don't mind being called a 'socialist.' n/t

[fascisthunter]

24. you got it right, unfortunately there are too many who get paid for being wrong

and others are too fucking stupid to even consider your point of view.

[ProSense]

25. Social Security isn't going to be touched

The Senate voted "To protect Social Security."

The commission is going to look into wasteful government spending, not Social Security.

Great stories about tax time

[JDPriestly]

75. The commission will look into saving costs on Social Security and Medicare.

That is what it is for. And my Congressman said last Thursday that the Senate health care reform bill will means test some of the Medicare coverage. We paid for the right to Social Security and Medicare. That's a done deal. The average Social Security benefit in December 2009 was about $1,064 per month. Some got less. Some got more. That is not a lot of money. Social Security cannot be cut, not for the seniors today, not for the seniors of tomorrow.

And raising the age at which you take Social Security is ridiculous because employers discriminate against older workers to an unbelievable extent. Employers want happy, smiling, energetic, young faces in the workplace.

The Death of the Salesman is still a reality.

[Mithreal]

82. From the bill

(b) WAIVER.--This section may be waived or suspended in the Senate only by the affirmative vote of three-fifths of the Members, duly chosen and sworn.

[gtar100]

26. Wow. And that with a Democratic president and congress.

Unbelievable. For a country so filled with pride, we sure seem to show a lot of hate for its people.

[mmonk]

28. Nailed it.

[winyanstaz]

29. exactly...and its time we made things right again....

[Enthusiast]

32. And this isn't even news worthy.

They are destroying the nation right before our eyes and blaming it on us.

[Dave From Canada]

34. It's simple math. There were 16 workers for every retiree in the 30's, there's now only 2 workers

for every retiree. It's not hard to figure out why social security is in serious trouble. People are living much longer, and there aren't enough workers to support them.

[Jakes Progress]

36. It is simple math, but not yours.

SS isn't really in serious trouble unless you use the funds to finance bail-outs, tax cuts for the rich, and two wars. And the reason there are fewer workers is that there are fewer jobs because the people who give us bail outs, wars, and tax cuts are shipping jobs overseas and destroying our manufacturing base.

Now it's time for you to start attacking unions. That would be next on the list.

[Dave From Canada]

59. That's not true. Social security has already begun to pay out more than it takes it. You can't

argue with math and science. People are living much longer than ever before. There was a baby boom in which there is now many more people retiring than usual. There are only a couple of workers for every retiree. That's a fact. It has nothing to do with wars, or tax cuts, or bailouts.

Btw, I never ever started attacking unions. Unions aren't the reason social security is in trouble.

[Jakes Progress]

69. Okay, I agree with economists. You have pop media on your side.

Just saying "That's a fact" doesn't make it a fact. You are spouting all the rw talking points about why we need to privatize SS. Talking points aren't facts. And a series of statements that are fact don't lead to the conclusions you have been told to think. Yep. People are living longer. Yep. there was a baby boom. Those don't lead to the conclusion that grover norquist want's to you draw.

Suppose I say you can't argue with facts. There is a war that is costing more than the need for continuing SS. bush cut taxes worth several years continuation of SS. The bailouts are symptomatic of a government that will spend SS funds to do what it wants without honoring the contract it made. Those are facts. You want to brush them away, but it's a rw broom you are using.

[AllentownJake]

39. Even with all them women folk working now?

They are also taking more taxes (Reagan) and they are spending the money on things that are not social security well they've been doing that for years.

I wonder what kind of shape we'd be in if in 2001 we used the money to pay down debt instead of cut taxes and invade Iraq in 2003.

[Dave From Canada]

60. It still wouldn't solve the population issue. 2 workers for 1 retiree, instead of 16 workers for

every retiree back in the 30's and 40's.

[AllentownJake]

62. The fund was robbed

It would have been well funded with COLA until my grandkids retired if it wasn't robbed.

[laughingliberal]

43. There has been more than enough money going into SS for years to cover the obligations

Because there was a surplus the government has been taking it and using it for other purposes (like war) and leaving IOU's there for the money. Now it's time to pay it back and they don't wanna. This is why it's in trouble. They want to keep the money they 'borrowed' from us.

[Mithreal]

50. Blah blah blah

:thumbsdown:

Sure got yourself a keeper there. Too bad it is seriously under limit.

I don't come to DU for such blatant conservative shilling.

[Dave From Canada]

61. What am I shilling? Do the fucking math yourself. How many workers per retiree were there when SS

first started??? Now how many workers are there??? Math isn't ideological. Math is facts. I'm sorry you don't like to hear facts. Continue to keep your head in the sand.

[Mithreal]

63. Listen, oh Obi-Wan. Your math failed because your work was incomplete.

[Jakes Progress]

70. You let karl and grover do your math.

You like trotting out what you call the answer. In real math class you have to show your work and your sources.

[DesertDiamond]

41. Dang, AllentownJake, you frickin NAILED it!!! Hear hear hear hear hear!

Who the F cares if they call us names???? We've got a job to do. They are calling us names so we can't get it done. So as you say, AllentownJake, let's do our job so we can earn the name!

[Nikki Stone1]

42. Where is the DU expert on Roosevelt?

;)

[gleaner]

44. Sounds right to me, too ...

We need jobs and higher taxes for the rich and larger corporations for an infusion of cash into the economy.

Let's be real socialists. All over the country we have damaged highways, bridges and other infrastructure because of the neglect they suffered while the Republicans danced their little jig with the rich. The government could create jobs, like FDR did and put them to work fixing up the things that need to be fixed. Taxes on the rich could pay for it and people would benefit across the board. that is only one thing, but it is the first to spring to mind.

Good post, true and it captures well how dismal life has become here. K&R.:kick:

[laughingliberal]

45. Spot on as usual, ATJ.

We so wish we had a Roosevelt right now. Either Roosevelt, actually.

[inna]

46. +108, and it's just insane.

Obama could be actually practicing some truly progressive policies, and still he'd be called all the names ("socialist" etc.) that he's being called right now, when his policies are nothing but corporatist.

[Mithreal]

49. That's because wealthy folks rolled over for belly rubbins in 1933.

And there was just one happy party back then and a President the likes of which legends are made.

We should show proper respect for our betters.

Next we'll be putting parking places up front for the new super citizens and their loyal minions.

Someone needs to start a corporate scouts program for the youngsters too. Don't you know it, little ones look cute in suits and can't get them started early enough.

All the wealthy folks want is to be left alone with your money, can you really blame them?

No offense to the responsible ones but the crooked ones are making your whole class look really bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk47saogI8o

[HughMoran]

51. Never mind

You're lost. :eyes:

[Mithreal]

52. Tell us, oh Moses.

Hi Hugh, a substantive response might be more helpful than rolling the eyes. I know you are capable. If there is something wrong with the view the op presents, engage debate, please. That is one of the main reasons I come here, to engage others in a lively debate of ideas. I am sure I am not alone in that.

If there is an angle that is skewed, why not help straighten it?

[HughMoran]

53. It's too obvious

Clearly anybody can spin what's going on in a negative way. Emphasize the negative and hardly mention the positive. Anybody can do that - that takes no skill at all. Arguing with people pre-disposed to negativity is fruitless and depressing. I've been here long enough to know where the dog died. Words are not required nor are helpful. The shark was jumped so long ago.

[Mithreal]

54. Ok, maybe next time. Take it easy.

[donco6]

55. So, you got nothing?

"Look at the positive"? That's what you've got?

Pfft.

[deutsey]

57. Figures.

:eyes:

[AllentownJake]

58. I guess we can sing Always look on the bright side of life

From our crucifixes



If you care to refute my OP, you are more than welcome.

[Mithreal]

64. That just won't do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBiLNN1NhQ

Some things in life are bad
They can really make you mad
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you're chewing on life's gristle
Don't grumble, give a whistle
And this'll help things turn out for the best...

CHORUS

If life seems jolly rotten
There's something you've forgotten
And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing.
When you're feeling in the dumps
Don't be silly chumps
Just purse your lips and whistle - that's the thing.

CHORUS

For life is quite absurd
And death's the final word
You must always face the curtain with a bow.
Forget about your sin - give the audience a grin
Enjoy it - it's your last chance anyhow.

CHORUS


http://www.thebards.net/music/lyrics/Always_Look_Bright_Side_Life.shtml

[Jakes Progress]

71. Then why pipe in so shrilly?

Don't you have better things to do with your big old brain than snark other people's posts? People might get the idea that you really don't have a point other than to be contrary. Or they might think you just like appearing smugly above it all. Or they might think you hope that people will think you know what your talking about without your having to actually make a point.

Brevity is only a virtue if it contains wit. Not the case in your post.

[inna]

85. .

:spray:

:thumbsup:

[ProSense]

74. Here is an entire thread based on a premise that isn't real

The Democrats have not plans to cut Social Security.

[Mithreal]

81. So you have one counter-argument and dismiss the entire as not real.

Did the op say something untrue? No.

What you produced was an amendment to a bill, about to be signed that states passing anything that the commission recommends should have a higher threshold than a simple majority? Is that correct? I can see for myself it is.

(b) WAIVER.--This section may be waived or suspended in the Senate only by the affirmative vote of three-fifths of the Members, duly chosen and sworn.

How we frame debate matters. Cutting entitlements should be as clearly off-the-table as impeaching W, looking back, "re-litigating," and universal single payer.

So, please stop misleading fellow DU'ers. A lot of people take what you have to say as some sort of gospel. I am not one of them.

Fwiw, thank you for posting the amendment link anyway.

[inna]

86. "A lot of people take what you have to say as some sort of gospel."

Please tell me you were joking.

:scared:

Who could those people possibly be???

[Jakes Progress]

89. Neophytes? nt

[ProSense]

92. "Did the op say something untrue?"

Stop kidding yourself. The claim that social security was on the cutting block was a bogus rumor.

"A lot of people take what you have to say as some sort of gospel. I am not one of them."

Wow, something bothering you?



From President Obama's budget:

Protect Social Security.

Protect and Improve Medicare.

[Mithreal]

93. I will repeat. Did the op say something untrue?

[Caretha]

56. What Mithreal said

I don't need rolling eyes. I need perspective. If you have a different one my friend, belly up to the bar and spit it out.

[Odin2005]

65. I am getting increasingly frustrated by the ConservaDems.

What is the difference between the DLC and the Republican Party? None that I can see.

[defendandprotect]

66. "Welfare for the Rich, Free Enterprise for the Poor" . .. and nothing less!!

[pansypoo53219]

67. the bakers do not care.

THEY didn't lose money. americans did. the world did. they have eerythig exactly like they want them. so they can steal with impunity.

[Mithreal]

68. ack

:donut:

I do it all the time. When I first read it I thought of which Baker you were talking about, then shamefully, I must admit I thought what does bread have to do with this mess. I really am that slow sometimes. That is why I sometimes respond oddly to comments, misunderstanding.

[KoKo]

73. Socialist Dems BAD! Socialist Reaganites for Corporations..GOOD!

n/t

[Mithreal]

80. +1

[Glidescube2]

76. The thing is that the greatest two

things we actually pay money on and run up the deficit is the Military and Medicare. If the tea baggers will tell us which one they wish to get rid of to balance the budget then at least we'll know where we stand.

But of course if we abolish the military we are anti American, if we abolish Medicare we are monsters and if we abolish Social Security, the only program that actually directly pays for itself, they would blame the liberals that grandma is now homeless on the streets.

These people want a pie in the sky America financed by tax cuts and they are too ignorant to realize this is impossible

[WillyT]

77. K & R !!!

:kick:

[slipslidingaway]

79. Missed the rec period - but I would say you got it right! n/t

[Kablooie]

84. I would expect the weak finacial reforms to be overturned soon anyway....

with moneyed interests now being given the golden keys to the kingdom they will reshape it in their own image with breathtaking aplomb, I'm sure. It has already started with the rich Republican corporate interests forming a 'think tank' cabal.

[nc4bo]

87. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours.

Although I'm sure there's tons of waste within the Medicare/Medicaid system and it truly does need to be addressed but so does our healthcare system.

Leave SS alone FFS.

What I don't understand is why the foot dragging on our financial system re-regulation?

Actions ALWAYS speak louder than the mere word.

[havocmom]

90. Seems much waste and fraud in Medicare is from corporations fraudulant billing tricks

Sometimes it is the small time corporation of a single practicioner, but to pull off really profitable fraud on a large scale takes a larger corporation. Like former senator Bill Frist's family business.

07/29/09 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/29/federal-agents-raid-houst_n_246883.html

MIAMI — Federal authorities arrested more than 30 suspects, including doctors, and were seeking others in a major Medicare fraud bust Wednesday in New York, Louisiana, Boston and Houston, targeting scams such as "arthritis kits" – expensive braces that many patients never used.

More than 200 agents worked on the $16 million bust that included 12 search warrants at health care businesses and homes across the Houston area, where the bulk of the arrests were made.

Federal authorities say those businesses were giving patients "arthritis kits," which were nothing more than expensive orthotics that included knee and shoulder braces and heating pads. Patients told authorities they were unnecessary and many never even received them. But health care clinic owners billed between $3,000 to $4,000 for each kit.

Houston's other scam involved billing Medicare for thousands of dollars worth of liquid food like Ensure for patients who can't eat solid food. Authorities said clinic owners never distributed the food to patients. In some cases, clinic owners billed patients who were dead when they allegedly received the items.

October 07, 2005 http://mediamatters.org/research/200510070002

Out of hundreds of newspaper stories on Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist's (R-TN) stock sale currently under investigation by the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and the Justice Department, only a handful have noted that, in December 2002, HCA Inc. -- the company whose stock Frist sold off before share prices dropped sharply -- agreed to pay the government $1.7 billion in fines and penalties related to 14 counts of defrauding Medicare and Medicaid. HCA Inc. is the for-profit hospital chain founded by Frist's father. The total in penalties is the largest settlement ever recovered by the federal government in a health care fraud case, although many observers -- including a prominent Republican senator -- criticized the Bush administration's withholding of information in the case and aired concerns that the government may not have been adequately compensated.
...

Robert Dreyfuss | September 28, 2005 http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=frist_things_first

In 1993, Frist, then a millionaire heart surgeon whose father and brother were billionaires, was hardly on the political radar in Tennessee. At the time, the Volunteer State was represented in the Senate by Jim Sasser, a wily Democrat who'd established himself as a leading expert on health-care policy. In the spring of '93, Sasser began holding investigative hearings into Medicare fraud by doctors, hospitals, and other health-care providers. Medicare fraud was becoming an enormous issue, one that generated the creation of special FBI task forces and other investigations, and Sasser wanted to know the extent of the problem.

Little did Sasser know that the very biggest offender was none other than Tennessee's own Hospital Corp. of America. HCA didn't figure into Sasser's 1993 fraud hearings, simply because he -- and the FBI -- didn't know about the vast thievery being committed by HCA. For years, HCA and its predecessors, including a smaller hospital firm also founded by the Frists, had rigged Medicare billing systems to charge the federal government far more than was justified for treating ordinary ailments, a practice known as “upcoding.”

The charges began to surface late in '93, when the U.S. General Accounting Office began to uncover a pattern of Medicare fraud involving HCA. Throughout the decade, charges snowballed against the firm. Eventually HCA would emerge as arguably America's most egregious corporate criminal, accused of having bilked U.S. taxpayers and the Medicare system out of billions of dollars. In a desperate effort to restore its good name, HCA would agree to three settlements between 2000 and 2003, paying civil and criminal fines amounting to $1.47 billion. Although several HCA officials were indicted, the settlement allowed HCA to escape further government action against it. Even the enormous fines paid by HCA may suggest a sweetheart deal between HCA and the Bush administration's Department of Justice, because under Medicare rules HCA was liable for treble damages for the fraud it engineered -- which would have cost the company many billions -- and could have been barred from doing business with Medicare. It wasn't.

The public knew nothing of the HCA scandal in 1993. The Frist family, on the other hand, as HCA's founders and major stockholders, must have known that Sasser's investigation could, at any moment, explode their company. The Frist family suddenly decided to run one of their own, Bill, against Sasser. According to Tennessee Democratic sources, Frist was a political unknown, but there were suspicions that the Frists were pushing Bill's Senate race in order to get rid of their nemesis, Sasser, before he could uncover HCA's criminal fraud. The Frists spent millions of dollars to back Bill's '94 Senate bid -- and, in a stunning year in which the GOP seized control of both chambers of Congress, Sasser was defeated.

So if the neo-cons wanna talk waste and fraud, BRING IT ON. There's a awful lot about fraud that did not get nearly enough attention, and it was a bunch of fat cats that were most involved in prepetrating, then covering up that fraud.

Regulations and oversight would save the taxpayer billions, and perhaps even make a lot of crooks get real jobs instead of sucking on the working class/middle class jugulars.

[Mithreal]

91. +1

:applause:

The real defrauders are are at the top.

[havocmom]

94. And that is why their paid for pols know fraud happens

it's all part of the gang activity that is corporate sponsored politicians.