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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 09:05 AM
Original message
You lost your house - but you still have to pay
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- As terrible as it is to lose your house to foreclosure, at least it's a relief to put your biggest financial headache behind you, right?

Wrong.

Vanessa Corey
Former homeowners may still be on the hook if there's a difference between what they owed on their mortgage and what the bank could sell it for at auction. And these "deficiency judgments" are ticking time bombs that can explode years after borrowers lose their homes.

It can even happen to people who got their bank to approve them selling their home for less than it is worth.

Vanessa Corey, for example, short sold her Fredericksburg, Va., home in April 2008. She and her husband built the house in 2004, but setbacks, both personal (divorce) and professional (housing bust), made it impossible for the real estate agent to keep her home. So she negotiated the short sale and thought that was the end of it.

"My understanding was that the deficiency was negotiated away," she said. "Then, last November, I got a letter from a lawyer telling me I owed my lender $65,000. I had to declare bankruptcy. There was no way I could pay it."

http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/03/real_estate/foreclosure_deficiency_judgement/index.htm
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. Shame, Fear and the Social Management of the Housing Crisis
Excellent and informative paper on the role of shame, guilt and fear and it's use by government and the financial industry, credit reporting agencies, etc. to manipulate borrowers onto bearing the brunt of the cost of the housing collapse.


Arizona Legal Studies
Discussion Paper No. 09-35
Underwater and Not Walking Away: Shame, Fear and the Social Management of the
Housing Crisis
Brent T. White
The University of Arizona James E. Rogers College of Law
December 2009


snip

But lenders, of course, do not operate according norms of personal responsibility, and seek instead to maximize profit (or minimize losses). Indeed, to the extent that the lender is a corporation, the directors and executives of the corporation have a legal duty to shareholders to maximize profit and/or minimize losses. Appealing to this duty, it has been suggested that, given the great cost to lenders of foreclosure, they have an economic incentive to modify loans for homeowners in danger of default. This argument has flown in the face of the reality, however, that lenders have been reluctant to modify loans, even for borrowers in the pre-foreclosure process.

Recent studies seeking to explain this apparently irrational behavior have shown that lenders are simply operating to maximize profit and minimize losses, just as they would be expected to do. First, lenders know that borrowers with high credit scores are unlikely to default even at high levels of negative equity. To modify loans for these homeowners would be to throw money away – and to encourage more homeowners to ask modifications. Second, a significant number of homeowners who temporarily default on their mortgages “self-cure” without any help from their lender – though self cure rates have dropped precipitously in the last two years. Again, to modify the loans of individuals who would otherwise self cure would be to throw away money. Third, homeowners with poor credit, or who end up in arrears because of “triggering events” such as unemployment, divorce, or other financially devastating circumstances are likely to default on the modified loan as well. To modify loans for these individuals is to waste time and risk housing prices falling further before the lender eventually has to foreclosure and sell the property anyway.

Given these economic incentives for the lender, a seriously underwater homeowner with good credit and solid mortgage payment history who responsibly calls his lender to work out a loan modification is likely to be told by his lender that it will not discuss a loan modification until the homeowner is 30 days or more delinquent on his mortgage payment. The lender is making a bet (and a good one) that the homeowner values his credit score too much to miss a payment and will just give up the idea of a loan modification. However, if the homeowner does what the lender suggests, misses a payment, and calls back to discuss a loan modification in 30 days, the homeowner is likely to be told to call back when he is 90 days delinquent.In the meantime, the lender will send the borrower a series of strongly worded notices reminding him of his moral obligation to pay and threatening legal action, including foreclosure and a deficiency judgment, if the homeowner does not bring his mortgage payments current. The lender is again making a bet (and again a good one) that the homeowner will be shamed or frightened into paying their mortgage. If the homeowner calls the lender’s bluff and calls back when he is 90 days delinquent, there is a good possibility that he will be told that his credit score is now so low that he does not qualify for a loan modification. The homeowner must then decide whether to bring the loan current or face foreclosure. If the homeowner somehow makes clear to the lender that he has chosen foreclosure, the lender may finally be willing to negotiate a loan modification, a short-sale or a deed-in-lieu of foreclosure – all of which still leave the homeowner’s credit in tatters (at least temporary).

Most lenders will, in other words, take full advantage of the asymmetry of norms between lender and homeowner and will use the threat of damaging the borrower’s credit score to bring the homeowner into compliance. Additionally, many lenders will only bargain when the threat of damaging the homeowner’s credit has lost its force and it becomes clear to the lender that foreclosure is imminent absent some accommodation. On a fundamental level, the asymmetry of moral norms for borrowers and market norms for lenders gives lenders an unfair advantage in negotiations related to the enforcement of contractual rights and obligations, including the borrower’s right to exercise the put option. This imbalance is exaggerated by the credit reporting system, which gives lenders the power to threaten borrowers’ human worth and social status by damaging their credit scores – scores that serve as much as grades for moral character as they do for creditworthiness.

The result is a predictable imbalance in which individual homeowners have born a huge and disproportionate burden of the housing collapse.


Much more at the link.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1494467

Fear stories are essential to keep regular people from doing what is best financially for themselves and their families.
Take the time to read the study. You are being manipulated.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. FTA:
"In the case of foreclosure, lenders can pursue deficiencies in more than 30 states, including Florida, New York and Texas, according to the U.S. Foreclosure Network, an organization of mortgage law firms.

Some states, such as California, are "non-recourse" and don't allow deficiency judgments. But, even there, if the original loan was refinanced, some or all of it may be subject to claims...."
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Second mortgages too? Also investment property?
Anti-deficiency laws typically provide no protection for other than purchase money mortgages (such as a second mortgage obtained after the original acquisition) and there is no protection when the property is not used as the primary residence of the purchaser.

http://real-estate-law.freeadvice.com/mortgage_matters/anti_deficiency_laws.htm



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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. It varies widely by state
...which is my only point.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
19. Your post made me think of all those late night paid shows
showing people how they could buy many houses for no money down and then flip them for quick profits.

Haven't seen one of them for a while.
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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
4. What are they trying to get from the foreclosed people? Their blood, their gravity?
Edited on Thu Feb-04-10 09:21 AM by ck4829
If they had money, then they wouldn't be foreclosed on in the first place.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. They are waiting for a recovery. They may have years to file
Ticking time bomb
What can be scary is that the judgments don't have to be obtained immediately. Lenders or collection agencies may wait until debtors have recovered financially before they swoop in. In Florida, the bank can wait up to five years to file. Once the court grants a judgment, the lender has 20 years there to collect, with interest.

It doesn't have to be a large amount of debt for a lender or collection agency to come after borrowers. Richard Varno and his wife short sold their Nashville home back in 2004 after he lost his job.

It wasn't until 2008, when the second lien holder asked him for $25,000, that he realized he still was liable.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. The worst part is they often wait until people have recovered financially.
So you you get foreclosed owing the bank $250,000. The house gets sold at auction for $200,000.

The $50,000 gets sold to debt company.

They know you are broke so they "sit on it".

Statute of limitations varies by state but generally judgements last 10 years.

So in 4, 5, 6 years maybe you have recovered financially. Got better job, a little money in bank, maybe even got a newer affordable house.

Then a letter in the mail demanding $50,000.

Anyone looking at foreclosure should consult a bankruptcy attorney. It may be better to file bankruptcy in conjunction with foreclosure to actually get a clean start.

I am not a bankruptcy attorney, every state and situation is different so consult a professional for specific information.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
6. I've seen this posted on several Economic Formun topics.
The link was giving me problems, but today I was able to read it.

There are several issues here that may catch a homeowner who walks away and the banks forecloses.

A second loan on a house is frequently NOT a nonrecourse loan. Second mortgages are different than original mortgages and people would be wise to heed this articles recommendation about getting a lawyer or consulting someone before they walk away with a second mortgage still outstanding.

Another thing the article points out is people sign things they don't know what they are. If you negotiate with your lender for a short sale be careful what you sign. You may be giving the bank a second chance to come after you for the difference between the mortgage and the sale.

But walking away from an overpriced mortgage can be accomplished if you are careful.

These are all the mortgage walkaway trustee sale states, meaning they are non-judicial foreclosure states.

In those states, generally, when they foreclose on you, they cannot pursue you for their financial losses.

Many, such as California, do in theory allow a lender to choose judicial foreclosure but in those cases the lenders only do so if a borrower has significant other assets. This is the "one action" rule that lets the lender either pursue non-judicial foreclosure, at lower cost and less time, or judicial foreclosure that costs more money and takes more time but lets them go after you for their financial losses.

Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
California
Colorado
District of Columbia (Washington DC)
Georgia
Hawaii
Idaho
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana (as long as non-judicial foreclosure is used)
Nevada - note that the lender CAN get a deficiency judgment (See below)
New Hampshire
Oregon
Tennessee
Texas (but even in a non-judicial foreclosure, the lender can pursue a deficiency judgment)
Virginia
Washington
West Virginia

These are states that also allow non-judicial foreclosure, and/or where non-judicial foreclosure is more common and deficiency judgments can be obtained more easily:
Michigan
Minnesota
North Carolina
Rhode Island
South Dakota
Utah
Wyoming

There's a good video and more info at this link. http://www.mortgagereliefformula.com/recourse/

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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. And then comes IRS
The lender may not be have recouse in those states but IRS sure does. If your home loan was 250k and you short sale for 175K, IRS says that is equity of 75K and you will pay taxes on it.
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. If it's an FHA loan and the borrower
participates in their pre foreclosure program they are not responsible for the balance of the mortgage after a sale or foreclosure in all states.
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
7. Yep, not to mention what IRS
will do to you in the end. The lender may only get a judgement from you but if you have a deficiency balance, IRS calls it income and will get either your taxes or your blood.
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Not until 2012.
...there is no tax liability on “forgiven portions” of home mortgages under current federal tax law in effect until 2012.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1494467 page 35
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. HB 3648 applies to mortgages purchased from 2007-2009
Our old neighbors just got hit for 0ver 100k in tax liability. They purchased their home in 2006 and lost it in a short sale in 2009. They could afford it, but when the value dropped to below what they owed, they just walked away. Now they have to pay the piper.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Would not seem the tax liability would be higher that what they saved by walking away. nt
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. That is just the point.
They walked away and didn't have to.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. I'm confused. I don't think I addressed whether or not they 'had to' walk away
What I said is that even if they occurred a tax burden for walking away it was, likely, not as high as what they saved by walking away from the mortgage on the house that was upside down.
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. An awful lot of mortgages and
even with the irs tax most if not all would come out ahead when looking at the cost of staying in the mortgage.


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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
11. It depends on state law and the specific mortgage as to whether there can be a deficiency judgement
In some states, a mortgage for purchase of a personal residence is secured only by the property and it is not a personal debt of the borrower. These are "non-recourse mortgages", and they are the ones that homeowners in CA, NV, AZ and FL can and do walk away from without personal bankruptcy. Holders of second mortgages, re-financed mortgages, etc, in these states may not be able to walk away and should consult their lawyers.

In many other states, mortgages of any kind are not only secured by the property but they are also a personal debt of the borrower. In these cases, the lender can get a deficiency judgement against the borrower for the difference between the unpaid balance of the mortgage and the net proceeds of the foreclosure.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
13. she should tell em she is a corrupt dishonest wall street bank! then she can get a free bailout lol
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
14. Depends on the laws in your state
Some states only allow the bank to take the property and not come after people for the balance. Also, if short selling, it is important that your deal with the mortgage holder includes the provision that they won't come after you for the balance.

My state does allow them to sue for the balance but if we're planning to file bankruptcy anyway so that would just be added to it.

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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
18. Are "had to pay" and "had to declare bankruptcy" different things? n/t
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Yes, like calling it "your" house with or without a bank lien. nt
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
20. Similar to if you sell your home at a loss.
You have to make up the difference to pay off your existing mortgage.

The mortgage is say $200,000 and interest. Your home has depreciated to $125,000 and has an existing mortgage balance of $175,000. Even if you apply the full amount of the proceeds from the sale of your home, you still owe $50,000-plus to the bank/lender to discharge/satisfy the mortgage.
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
25. Here in Alabama deficiency judgements apply.
And a foreclosure can happen FAST.
the mortgage company has to advertise in a paper, in the county the house is in, for 3 weeks,
thatt it will foreclose, then it can sell the house at auction and come after you for the difference in the selling price and the mortgage.
No judge needed.
Unless the mortgage company screws up, which does happen, thus grounds to contest the manner of the foreclosure, all it takes is less than a month.

Sigh........
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
26. We are currently negotiating a short-sale on our home. We had to relocate to find work.
Edited on Thu Feb-04-10 04:42 PM by izzybeans
The lender had our home appraised independently of the sale at higher than our realtor so they have asked for the difference and then came to us just yesterday and asked us to sign a promissory note to pay this difference.

We currently have negotiated a cash settlement and have demanded a letter indicating that a deficiency judgment will not be pursued at some point in the future. We will see if a "deals a deal" in the coming days.

Our contact at the bank told us that these judgments are being pursued more and more everyday. PMI companies are worse, apparently. Our Realtor was able to help us with negotiation by proving their appraisal was less than honest. They picked comps based on size, specs, and age of the home but ignored location.
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