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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:05 PM
Original message
Whose Side Are You On, Anyways?
I really don't know what the Hell happened. Nine years ago this site launched, in a much cruder format, with a sign at an unConstitutional inauguration in protest of an illegal president. There weren't many of us back then, but there were some Damned good people - some with us, some gone - who cared enough about our country and its direction to voice unpopular opinions even when 90% of the population stood against us.

Those were some great conversations.

We stood together back then. Sure we argued and people were banned, some repeatedly, but for the most part this was a place where people who wanted the same things for our country could honestly discuss the best ways to get them.

Where are we now?

I really don't know what happened, but things have definitely gotten bad. Even in 2004 we didn't fight like this. Even after, when the entire Democratic party was ablaze with incrimination and self-doubt we didn't delight in hurting each other as we do today.

Does this help advance our agenda?

Why do we have sides at DU today? Why are there sub-forums dedicated to insulting posters who don't agree with us and planning the next attack on OPs with different beliefs? Why does half of DU think the other half hates our President while that other half thinks the first half hates everyone else?

Whose side are you on anyway?

I've been accused of hating president Obama because I strongly disagree with the direction he's taken us since his inauguration. I don't hate him, I'm frustrated as are so many others, including those who agree with him. But this isn't cause for casting insults and pushing good progressives and Democrats away from the party.

Shouldn't we be convincing each other instead of bullying them?

And that is what so much of DU has become, the site to go to when you want to bully others. I'm guilty, myself. I found myself overreacting to a poster this evening because I had just posted a list of facts only to be met with "You're stupid" by someone else. I've apologized but its made me think very strongly about what's happened to this site. I've given to and taken a lot from DU over the last nine years. I've posted, donated, moderated, looked to friends here in times of grief, and consoled many others when they've needed the same.

So what? Right?

What I'm saying is that I believe there should be no sides at DU, only Democrats and those who support progressive policy. No one should attack you for supporting the president and no one should attack me for pushing him as hard as possible to the left. Sure, we should disagree with each other because that's what makes this site interesting, but should we really be attempting to shut down the debate or shout down a different viewpoint?

I'm reaching out an honest hand and asking that we all think about what DU has become since this election. Why not join together in realizing that while we may disagree strongly on how to reach our goals, they are still goals we have in common.

We all want health care that covers everyone in need.

We all want a strong working class that does not have to live each day in fear of losing their jobs.

We all want equal rights for all people.

We all want our Constitution revered and followed.

And we all want our president to succeed in making those things happen.

Isn't it time we all agreed on this, at least?

Isn't it time for us to work together again?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
daleanime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's sad ...
that this needs to be said.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
56. Note first subthread.
:eyes:
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daleanime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #56
83. I guess I missed it....
any thing original? :popcorn:
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #83
88. Oh, I missed it too.
I just thought it a bit ironic. ;)
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
71. I think we would have better perspective,
if we had DU while the conservative Dems were wreaking havoc during the Clinton Wonder Years.

We could be more civil. We miss the opportunity to hear tone, observe body language and other forms of fleshing out of ideas. That leaves plenty of opportunities for misinterpretation and there are many other ways we are not communicating and connecting.

This op was enormously well written. I get it I really do. Interestingly at least for me I have fewer problems talking about Progressive ideas with real life average Republicans, Independents, and Democrats in person. Why is that? I am not sure. I do have ideas though. I use my hands a lot when I speak. I look people in the eye. I listen. I build on ideas the other person is saying. I share my enthusiasm. Some of that is hard to do from a keyboard. Taking its place may be angrier sounding rhetoric or other ways to express emotion that a more experienced communicator would avoid using.

The pressure on the lower and middle class is only going to get worse in the near term, so I expect people are going to be under more stress. I get it that some of you all are more schooled, more refined, more civilized, but I do think this is how democracy sounds.

I say this with love and understanding. I am angry though. And maybe you are too. I much prefer the ops that call for peace and forgiveness. Seems like those should accompany ops of this type.
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daleanime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #71
103. Nicely put!
although instead of peace and forgiveness, I would prefer understanding and effort myself.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-27-10 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #103
107. especially effort
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Tailormyst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. This is a really great post !
People should be able to talk without getting mean with each other.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
69. Agree with your sentiment. However, people are under increasingly enormous stress.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. Too many DLC trolls.
There used to be a lot of good moderates on DU along with us Progressives. Now it's just use versus DLC shills.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. There have always been DLC proponents at DU. There's even an avatar for them.
Neither they, nor we, have to shout the other down. If they're wrong, prove it with facts.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Some of us have tried... for months
and they call us names when they can't refute the facts. Annoys the daylights out of me to see DEMs using the tactic of trying to intimidate dissent by personally attacking people, it's such a neo-con tactic that it is really disturbing to see it here.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. That's why its time to reach out a hand.
The attacks, and I'm not going to say who's attacking whom, are out of control. There's no debate, only insults. A poster PM'd me saying someone had to make the first move. Here it is.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Lots of us have been doing that, and continue
and we keep getting bit. There are a lot of really fine, long-time DUers we don't see around campus anymore, or damned seldom. There is a reason for that.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. If anyone knows that some of the best posters are no longer here, I do.
I'm just trying to reach out. I hope some will join me in one more attempt.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
82. One more attempt? There will never be only one more fight.
Understand that all battles are waged on an unconscious level before they are begun on the conscious one, and this battle is no different. The power structure wishes us to believe that the only options available are those which they present to us, we know this is simply not true, and therefore we must redefine the terrain of this conflict, and clearly, it is a conflict of worldviews and agendas.

We have lost good comrades and we will lose more but we mustn't look back, it would do them a disservice. We should honor their memory.

There is no finish line.
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newtothegame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. We've been using those tactics for years.
Isn't that the entire point of using the word "racist" or "sexist?" To shut the other person up?
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #22
46. um, no, not always. There ARE racists and sexists out there
I'm all for calling them on their crap. But those who would silence honest, well reasoned criticism do tend to use the terms as part of their arsenal to intimidate others on our side of the aisle too.

In my years here at DU, I have been called all sorts of things. Amusingly, been called things which contradict each other by the same posters in the same threads or even same posts. They opt out of using logic and just start pushing hot button labels, not unlike the tactics of those we oppose. THEN it is a tactic to silence. That it happens on this forum seems to be part of the OP's point.

It isn't always a tactic though. Sometimes pointing out racism and/or sexism, or sexual orientation bigotry, even geography based bigotry is just the truth and an effort to focus discussion on a particular issue rather than go knee-jerk with personal biases.
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #11
33. +1

K & R
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
64. and they stalk and orchestrate flamewars with DUers who call them on their facts,
Edited on Tue Jan-26-10 04:52 PM by branders seine
and often with inside help, get threads locked and good users tombstoned. Then they celebrate, dancing on graves of great Democrats.

DLCers are fascists. It is now showing clearly.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
80. havocmom, I am on your side, but may I suggest that you need
to just get less sensitive.

The truth hurts. People who don't want to face the truth call you names because you speak the truth and it hurts.

Don't answer or defend yourself against petty posts. Consider the source(s). The people who snipe are frustrated because they aren't as smart and don't understand things as well as you do but aren't ready to admit it.

Remember. Even when Bush was terribly, terribly, obviously off track, a certain percent of his diehard-never-learn-never-face-the-truth supporters could not bring themselves to admit it.

President Obama at least has a mixed record. He handles dealing with foreign leaders well. He doesn't try to massage the backs of female leaders in front of running cameras. And I haven't seen him looking inebriated in public yet. (I'm not saying Bush was inebriated because I don't know, but sometimes he sure looked it.)

Also, President Obama's English is much better than Bush's. And President Obama's Supreme Court appointment was better than Bush's.

As for Obama's other policies, many of us who relied on his campaign promises in deciding to work for him and support him are shaking our heads in disappointment and disbelief. So you are not alone.

Some others, especially here on DU bought into the "Obama is the greatest meme" and just haven't faced the facts yet. And a lot of people are poorly informed.

Unfortunately, unless Obama adjusts his course, you will soon face little disagreement here on DU. It is just a matter of time. Until then, just keep on keeping on. And remember you stand with many of us who are true, longtime Democrats who shake our heads in astonishment at what a Reagan Republican Obama turned out to be.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #80
104. Thanks, but it is not that I am sensitive. It is that bullies try to silence people
I don't give a rats ass about things they say to me, other than finding the inconsistencies of the labels they try to tag me with rather funny.

I DO care, a lot, about the damage such tactics do to the totality of discourse. When voices are intimidated into silence, democracy fails. Democracy is NOT a spectator sport. There are elements that do not want wide participation. That so many should be working their shameful bullying on a democratic discussion board is really disgusting.
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kimmerspixelated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
66. You nailed it!
People don't have to call each other stupid!-Period!
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
47. Amen. This is not the DU I joined in 2001.
There was a thread last week that made it to the Greatest Page supporting the "Cadillac Tax" attack on the Unions.
There were DUers in that thread who supported the "Cadillac Tax" because "the Health Care benefits of Union members were too good", and the Cadillac Tax would make everyone "more equal".

Instead of bringing everyone in the Working Class UP to the benefit levels of Union Workers, they wanted to tear down all the advances the Unions had made (for everybody) over the last 70 years.
:shrug:

There have always been a handful of DUers who supported the DLC for "strategic" reasons. They believed the media driven fallacy that the US is a "Centrist" nation, and felt they had a legitimate argument for "Centrism". (They were wrong, of course.)

I have NEVER before witnessed a group of DUers who strongly advocated for the destruction of Union Benefits, and thought I never would.
Those who want to roll back Union Benefits ARE my enemies no matter which "Party" they say they belong to.


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone



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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #47
57. That DU was a whole other world, wasn't it? n/t
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Kermitt Gribble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #47
98. This statement says it all:
"Those who want to roll back Union Benefits ARE my enemies no matter which "Party" they say they belong to."

Best single statement I've ever seen on DU.
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
49. Yes indeed! I seem to draw a lot of comments from them these days...
Edited on Tue Jan-26-10 02:13 PM by cascadiance
It's harder to get in to friendly dialog amongst progressives here on DU any more.

I'd not really had any thoughts for years of taking any kind of leave of absence from DU until just now...

Perhaps I'll be calling DU RO soon... If not standing for "Read Only" maybe standing for "Republicrat Overground"...
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
54. That's a false dichotomy
Brought on by the assumption that anyone who doesn't rec the "OBAMA FUCKING SUCKS!" threads, or give pats on the back for the in-depth analysis of how we need to start electing republicans to "send a message" MUST therefor be a "DLC troll"

We can think they're idiots while thinking the same of the DLC, thank-you-very-much
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SanchoPanza Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
99. To the OP:
Edited on Tue Jan-26-10 09:31 PM by SanchoPanza
How are well informed people of honest intent supposed to say anything to steer the debate away from a circular firing squad when they're repeatedly accused of being DLC Trolls / Corporate Shills / Agents of RAAAAAAAAAAHM! / Part of a Cass Sunstein Daisy Chain?

The answer: You can't. They're too wrapped up in their own self-indulgent fantasies to be amendable to reasoned argument. And too many people want to ignore the fact that GD and GD : P are rapidly becoming similar to a particular forum on this site commonly referred to as "The Dungeon" that is almost entirely populated by paranoid conspiracy theorists. The primary difference is that the "K&R!!1!" echo chambers are a bit bigger here.
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. Excellent post - every DU'er should read this. K&R.
Hey last1standing - great post. I would have loved to have seen the DU of old, but alas I did not fully grasp the horror of our situation until 2004.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. They weren't perfect, but they were pretty Damned good.
Some of the best posters from that time, like Kephra, have passed away and others have just grown tired of the new DU, but some remain and lurk on the edges.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
7. Sorry. It was easier to fantasize that things would be different if only bush* wasn't president.
Now that it's become quite clear that it's all a fucking farce, conflict between those who have seen through the illusion and those who still cling to it are inevitable.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. +1
Goldman Sachs and Defense Contractors before the election and after the election.
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Kalun D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. In a nutshell
there's those of us who have woken up and there's those that still believe what the TV tells them. There's bound to be friction in a situation like that.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. It's fine to clash, its not fine to insult and bully each other in the hopes of pushing people away.
We've always disagreed at DU, practically from day one. We haven't ever had this insane division of groups who only care about hurting each other. I rarely see real policy discussions here anymore.
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
8. Great post. There are people plotting attacks? Seriously?
What douchebaggery.

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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. A-fuckin-min
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:17 PM
Original message
I am on the side of the AMERICAN PEOPLE
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
20. +1
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
61. Same here.
:thumbsup:
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
79. +1
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
10. And the first post is a deleted subthread.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. I'm not sure why that happened. It wasn't that bad.
It wasn't even a real attack. :shrug:
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
18. K&R & Thanks for your voice of reason
I hope that the vitriolic fratricide is a passing phase.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. It won't be a passing phase unless we make it one.
I'm going to try to do my part. I hope others join me.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
21. Thank you - Well Said!!!!
Edited on Mon Jan-25-10 10:57 PM by liberal N proud
I have been trying to say something like this for some time.

DU is no longer the place we once knew. People get defensive when you ask such simple questions as where did you get that information or where is the link.

People don't want to be called trolls yet they act like someone that at one time would have been tombstoned.

I don't think many understand what DU was create for and its true purpose has been lost.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I don't think DU's true purpose has been lost. I think its hiding.
There are some great posters out there just waiting for a return to real discussion and reasonable debates. But they've waited too long now and I believe many will go away for good if things don't return to normal soon.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #23
34. Yes they will.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
26. Voting for the demcratic party cadidate/s doesn't mean
We are all on the same side.

And that has to be ok.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. I think 'big-picture' we are all on the same side.
We just disagree strongly on how to reach our goals. Do we put our trust in a person who could work to attain them or do we push that person when he doesn't seem to be that interested?

I believe in pushing but I think we need to debate that with those who think otherwise, not personally attack them.
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rudy23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #28
65. I wish, but look at the shots the DLC is firing. In many cases they are directly opposing progress
That's where the split is. Compound that with the theory that DLC trolls don't give a shit whether this site is ruined, they get tombstoned, or Progressives stay in the party, and you've got the current state of DU, and the Democratic Party in 2010.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
27. It might be easier to reach-across-the-aisle than within our own party
:hide:

The 'big tent' party has moved too far from its working class platform. Independents want politicians to focus on economic issues, not bullshit God & Guns wedge issues.
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TomCADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
29. K&R! I Start To Wonder When You See Folks Pushing For The Loss of Democrats...
Edited on Tue Jan-26-10 12:09 AM by TomCADem
Some DUers were openly inviting a Scott Brown win to teach President Obama a lesson. Than when Scott Brown won, many folks dramatically announced they were quitting. I seriously wonder whether such folks are really Democrats. Activism is required to change things. I do think there is a concerted effort to depress activism among those on the left.

The answer is to get involved, not to disengage.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
30. K&R
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Ildem09 Donating Member (472 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
31. a to the men
read my tagline. we have to find someway to keep relative peace in the asylum lest the doctors come and give us meds
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 03:10 AM
Response to Original message
32. Thank you, this is really nice. KnR
:fistbump:

Hekate
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greenbird Donating Member (432 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 06:16 AM
Response to Original message
35. Thank you for this.
K&R
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
36. The reason is because no matter who wins elections,
the Republican political economic agenda advances no matter what it does to our domestic economy or Republican resistance is supported by some elected Democrats. The cause of higher living wages is not advanced and unions continue to be under assault. Rightwing radicals that should have been fought advanced through our court system including the Supreme Court. The miitary industrial complex continues to get bigger and programs to promote the general welfare are always trimmed or privatized. The GLBT discrimination remains and religious right agendas continue to advance. The general principles of Reaganomics remain strong and continue. The problem is that the DLC and the Blue Dog coalition advance the causes not congruent with progressive ideals and traditional Democratic Party values of representing the public good when challenged with multinational corporate interests, trade policies, the assault on civil liberties, etc.. As long as this persists, working together will never be easy.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
37. here's how i see the problem
In your own words: "...there should be no sides at DU, only Democrats and those who support progressive policy... "

With that one phrase you have summed up not only the problem at DU but also the problem with politics in general. You're confusing "Democrats" with "progressives". DU has always (and i've been here since early on) had serious contention between people who support the party and people who support progress. Those two things are mutually exclusive. The Democratic party is only the party of progress to the extent that it throws the masses of people a bone now and then (and often it's a poison bone, like HCR). Anyone who hasn't recognized that yet is either not paying attention or...well, in the spirit of your post i'll stop there.

I'll say it plainly: the democratic party is not the friend of the people any more than the Republican party is simply because they throw us a bone now and then. That bone-throwing is the straw that desperate people grasp at when they don't see another way to go. Bone-throwing is what the Democratic party does to maintain the status quo of govt of, by, and for the rich. To me, these are bedrock, non-negotiable facts. Anyone who doesn't see it that way, is not on the same "side" as me.

People who support the lesser-of-two-evils are not helping America or the world. The Democratic party IS the other side.

DU has to decide if it wants to be an organ of the Democratic party or if it wants to be progressive. That is what all the rancor is about. IMHO.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
38. Good post.
Only Nixon could go to China kind of thing, but good.
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DisgustedInMN Donating Member (956 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
39. K & R
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
40. wait a minute.... you call people or insinuate people are "cultists". FAIL
Edited on Tue Jan-26-10 08:40 AM by dionysus
:shrug:

OMFG is your hypocracy meter broken....

your post would be awesome if you didn't spend most of your time engaging in what you're decrying.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. I did say I was guilty as well.
Many of us, including you, are guilty of either opening with or responding to insults. I respond to them and I shouldn't. This is my mea culpa.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. fair enough.
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
41. Winning is the Worst Thing that can Happen to an Underground Movement
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
44. I have only one thing to say in reply: WELCOME TO THE INTERNET, MON! savvy?
Edited on Tue Jan-26-10 09:04 AM by Leopolds Ghost
:hi:
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
45. "Isn't it time for us to work together again? " K and Yes!
Edited on Tue Jan-26-10 09:16 AM by goclark
Excellent post
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
48. I'm on the side of humanity and the rest of life on earth. I oppose those who cause
suffering and destruction to both in the name of power and profit.
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SlingBlade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
50. ConservaDems ... Does it get any more disgusting than this ?
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
51. Too bad the President and the Democrats in Congress don't share your Progressive views.
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alberg Donating Member (324 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
52. I agree with your list of wants. I think part of the conflict comes from the deep feeling of Hope
that Obama inspired during the campaign and at the inauguration. The gap between all those speeches and the actions of the last 12 months has left people disoriented and distressed.

Some folks believe they've seen enough and have concluded that we've been bamboozled.

Other folks think we need to give Obama more time before we come to any conclusions.

The intensity level is so high because the expectations were so high.
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mochajava666 Donating Member (771 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #52
87. I totally agree with those assertions, except I would add
that there are also folks that believe there is no significant gap between his speeches and his actions. To me, these groups and others seem to represent the different stages of grieving. I fear we will all meet at the end with acceptance of the status quo.

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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
53. I've spent a lot less time here reading and posting
Firstly, because I've already seen this show before during the Bush Administration. U sed to come here to see what was going on. Now I come here to see how people are reacting to it.

Frankly though, one fact continues to be true- Most of DU doesn't like the truth, in whatever form it comes in. Every so often I feel the urge to be Cassandraish, and it's usually not appreciated. Torture, spying, wars, working class being destroyed economically...

My prophecies are really not needed, however. The truth is there for all to see.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
55. Here's the Problem: There Is No Excuse For Obama and the Democratic Party.
Edited on Tue Jan-26-10 03:30 PM by Toasterlad
We were told that if we elected Obama and gave him a majority in both houses, he would get things done. Instead, he has accomplished nothing of substance since taking office, and, more damningly, he has put forth NO EFFORT, to accomplish anything. And the pro-Obama faction, the one that thinks everything is simply swell, can't argue the merits of the actions Obama has taken, so they resort to sticking their fingers in their ears and chanting "I know you are, but what am I?"

I don't hate Obama (I don't know the man). I hate the job he's doing as President, and I'll feel free to categorize his performance using negative phrases, because that's not only my right as an American, it's my democratic DUTY to voice my disapproval with elected officials when they don't do what I think they should.

The Obama supporters tend to forget the first of Obama's many cop-out strategies: when he said that we had to "hold his feet to the fire". Perhaps they believe that means we should send polite letters to the White House expressing some concern over the way certain issues are being handled. And that's probably appropriate for an elected official who's doing pretty much what you want him to do, but is dropping the ball in a few areas.

Unfortunately, Obama is dropping the ball in almost EVERY area. More, he keeps dropping back to pass, getting sacked, and FUMBLING the ball. ALL THE TIME. The man in the White House is not the man who promised Change. He's not the man who promised to be a leader, and to get things done. There is no evidence that Candidate Obama and President Obama have anything remotely in common with each other. And because they can't produce any evidence of Obama's leadership, the supporters fall back on childish nonsense.

Yes, we SHOULD be able to discuss this country's many failures, and the President's lack of ability, judgment, and resolve to deal with them, without resorting to name-calling. But when one side has no logical rebuttal, but insists on arguing anyway, they're going to use whatever tactics they have left. Which isn't much.

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Myrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Well stated!
:applause:
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. This is why I can no longer get emotionally involved with a politician.
I have done my share of swooning over a politician who said the sweetest words I could ever want to hear--and I wound up rationalizing things I would NEVER have otherwise put up with just because the idea of finding out that I'd been wrong all along was too much to bear. It's humiliating, and people hate to be humiliated.

At this point I just assume that the only way a politician can make it to a national office is if he/she is willing to compromise away everything they supposedly stand for, and I don't let myself get too excited. The easiest way to avoid being taken for a ride is to refuse to jump on the bandwagon in the first place. I stand for issues, period. Equality, social justice, peace, and advocating whatever ideas stand a chance of significantly easing the miseries of the poor and the oppressed. I'll leave the flag-waving and torch-bearing to those who haven't yet been disappointed and let-down enough to be as cynical as I.
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RedCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
60. I only disagree with the 90% were against. Remember how Viet-Nam was so unpopular?
Overwhelming majority were against it, nationwide. If you were pro war, you were dead politically. Then what happened?

One thing I predicted. "Just watch. They will turn this huge anti-war sentiment into pro-POW sympathy." And those propaganda flicks came out.

Suddenly like good little Nazis we were being told to support the troops. These words muffled "Stop the war!"

And the news media helped. No longer direct bloody war scenes but they jumped in bed with pro military propagandists. The war was never properly covered again.

We wasted over a trillion dollars playing kill bin Laden and still we don't have the evidence on how one of the four trade buildings fell. But don't let that stop the warring folks. They only saw blood. And our Social Security was raped repeatedly by Bush to steal funds from working people to pay so his friends could get rich:

A) Arming Iraq to the teeth.
B) Bombing Irag to the Stone Age
C) Rebuilding Iraq's bombed infrastructure

and D) If nobody remembers or cares anymore, steal those cheap oil fields.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
62. I'm always on the side...
...of people who say "anyways".

It's just so cute.
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rudy23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
63. I believe many of the DLC posters are here to ruin this site. They aren't arguing in good faith.
I think there are some genuinely harsh posters on both sides, but there's something different going on from the DLC side. They don't have the burden of wanting to preserve DU, keeping fellow Dems on board, etc. They are happy that people like you and others are getting turned off to this site. That's why you'll see such vile words used to bash Dennis Kucinich or Jane Hamsher.

They're trying to demoralize Progressives, and turn us off to politics. Then we sit out elections, and more Blue Dogs get in. No, they couldn't care less about DU or the Democratic Party, so why would they care about civility on this board?
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
67. Pro gay marriage Pro choice Pro protectionism Anti death penalty Anti war Anti police state
That's the side I'm on.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #67
100. Tell it, TO.
:thumbsup:
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matt819 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
68. Lots of reasons
First, when you and I signed on here, there were 10,000 or so members. We had an easily identified and unanimously common "enemy" and objective. It was almost too easy. Remember the cry during the 2004 campaign? ABB - Anybody but Bush. That was pretty easy, especially when it was pretty clear from the outset that the smear campaigns generated by the right were going to work. It's relatively easy to be civil when positions were so easily definable. And, because there were so few of us, it was easy for a handful to stand out and keep us focused and entertained - newyawker99 comes to mind, as does nostamj with his toons, and a relatively small handful of others.

Fast forward to the campaign in 2008. All hell breaks loose. First, there are another 100,000 members. Inevitably there are going to be changes. A larger spectrum of political positions, Hillary camps, Obama camps, etc. So now not only was antagonism directed toward the right, but varied Democratic/leftist/progressive groups turned on each other. And where else are these discussions, rants, attacks, etc. going to take place if not here?

And now, with the Obama administration looking increasingly like a right of center group, the knives are out. The progressives wanted this, the centrists wanted that, the mainline Democrats wanted something else, and the RW has capitalized on these divisions and cheer on the fractures. Everyone feels betrayed, with the end result as you - and innumerable other posters - have described.

Solutions? None. The frustrations and despair are very real, and the President is really in a no-win situation, which, unfortunately, he's making worse. I imagine the best we can strive for is civil discourse, a laudable goal thwarted, sadly by the trolls and other nasties who really ought to wallow among their own. (I reserve the right to be civil to those I have at least a modicum of respect for, and republicans don't fall into that category.)
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undergroundnomore Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
70. I want my President to succeed
I want health care that covers everyone in need. What we need is a health care bill that will do just that. I don't believe the bill up for a vote does this at all. There are still many people who will not be covered and it doesn't cover things like abortion.

Of course I want equal rights for all people and I think that the people we helped put into office need to work with us not against us. Some are but there is no excuse for us not to have the health care that ignores so many people.
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Atticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
72. Thanks for a great post. Everyone has a bad day now and then and "goes off" on
someone. I have been guilty of that and I have been on the receiving end, also.

Your post is a reminder to all of us that passion doesn't require snark or ad hominem attacks. I'll try to just "walk away" from these more often in the future instead of responding in kind.

While we snipe at each other, the bad guys aren't taking many days off.
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
73. Hey there
:thumbsup:
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BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
74. I am a card carrying member of the Democratic Party

That's whose side I'm on.

I am a Democrat.




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the jungle Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
75. Do it
What all Democrats now need to do is go to as many republican events as you can and demand an answer to a simple question What is going to be done about healthcare. We need to be heard and demand that something be done for the working poor.
Be careful I was assaulted last Saturday for asking this question. Apparently republicans only like teaparties when they are holding um. Who knew.
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
76. k&r. I lurked for years before I joined DU and we have
lost way to many knowledgeable voices. Especially true in the 2008 primary season and now at the one year mark of this administration. I'm not so sure calling posters DLCers is helpful either. It just seems like another way to stop debate.
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cheapdate Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #76
90. There are still many great voices at DU...
and DU is still the first and the last place I check every day. I still find inspiration and intelligent argument from many of the passionate and articulate voices here like bigtree, swanson, mad floridian, et.al. Trolls and "centrist" democrats don't bother me. If they have something to say, great...if they don't, fuck 'em.
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #90
102. Yes, you are right there are still many great voices at DU. But
Many, many great voices have also either been purged, chased away or have left on their own in disgust. It is our loss that they are gone.
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cheapdate Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-27-10 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #102
105. Truly they are missed. n/t
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
77. I agree
although I try to just ignore the insults and learn from whatever substantive criticism I get. And I have learned a lot from reading posts at DU. It doesn't take long to get a sense of who is typically worth reading and who isn't. I have been guilty sometimes of playing the devli's advocate, but sometimes I learn how to improve my arguments when I do.
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gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
78. You have written a very ....
thoughtful post. This is the way I found DU when I joined last June, so I have no basis for comparison. I agree with you that we should be able to express a whole spectrum of views without having to be called names or lashing out ourselves. Like you I have been told I "hate" when I don't, and when I try to explain, I was simply called a "hater" over and over again.

I understand that a lot of the time we speak and react out of fear. I think that while Bush was in office we were thinking of the light of the end of the tunnel. We would pass through a period of danger and darkness and then it would be over and we would have a chance to repair and rebuild. But Bush was worse than we ever dreamed possible and even now when he is no longer president he and his influence won't go away. In many ways, to me, Obama seems to be continuing the worst of Bush and there is no light and no end. So we stay pressured. We don't know if there will ever be any release and our words and actions reflect it.

We need to try to pull together more, and to allow that we will always have differences. This is not bad. Nobody can bring about change without discussion and planning, and we have to try our best to reach out to each other instead of pulling back and trying to annihilate.
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hay rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
81. DU circa 2010.
I won't offer an opinion on the early days since I wasn't here, but looking back over the last year and a half, I see three distinct phases:

1) The Presidential primaries were acrimonious and resulted in a mix that was equal parts spirited debate and ad hominem attacks on everyone but the poster's preferred candidate;

2) The Presidential campaign during which hatchets were buried and DU was mostly united against the common enemy; and

3) Now- the Great Obama Disenchantment.

I am among the disenchanted and I think this is going to be an increasingly difficult time for the denizens of DU because it raises the fundamental question of what it means to be a Democrat. What do we really have in common and is it enough to keep us all together in one party? Obama may be trying to make the party tent bigger but I think he's going to find that the few people he picks up as he moves to the right are going to be more than offset by the people he loses on the left.

While I am very disappointed with what I have seen out of Obama lately, I have no complaints about the cacophony that is DU. Flames and "personal attacks" are just so many words in cyberspace- they can be cheerfully ignored. I sift through the dreck and still find much that is worthwhile here.
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igfoth Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
84. Blue Dogs are the Big Problem with the Dems
and really don't support the Dem Platform.

First if you don't agree 100% with the party platform go join another party.

That's the problem in a nut shell the Blue Dog DINO's.

Hate to say it but if the Dems really want to rule and make progressive change they have to first cleanse the party of the Blue Dogs.

The Pubs get props for keeping their members in line...look at what the Criminal Bush and the Pubs did without a 60 vote majority. Pubs toe the line or they are either redistricted out of existence or the GOP cuts off support and they lose a primary to a Pub who will toe the line.

The GOP used to have moderates but no more, Collins and Snowe got the message by seeing all their moderate breathren run out of office by their own.

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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
85. Well said. k/r
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DeadEyeDyck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
86. DU ain't what is used to be
and never was
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Slit Skirt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
89. DU is just a symptom of the real problem
We voted for change and we are not getting it. We hoped that Obama was shining a new light for the future, but that's not happening.
Our senators and representatives are acting like they really don't want to do ANYTHING that was talked about during the campaign. The question should be whose side are THEY on. Believe me, it is not ours. With Rahm, and many other of the old clintonian advisors...progressives are just screwed. They have no respect for us.

imho...all I see is a bunch of rhetoric. our children and their parents are still dying over in the middle east. We still have the patriot act. Millionaires are becoming billionaires and corporations rule the campaigns. It's ok to torture and they still have healthcare while we suffer.

employees in my company haven't had a pay raise in ten years...what was once a working wage for me has now made me part of the working poor. My company proudly flaunts their success, and it is well known that upper management gets large bonuses.

Are we manufacturing anything? Making anything? Has the rich had to pay more income tax? How's that outsourcing going for us these days? You know..the outsourcing that they promised to stop, slow down...do some damn thing. how about taking a scalpel to the budget and not an ax...don't I remember that from somewhere...??

here's what we should know....the powers to be want the right and the left to continue arguing with each other...then we don't watch what they are really doing up in DC. You know when we become effective...you know when the power structure is going to feel threatened? When we unite with the other side and get off our asses....that's when
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Neoconstipated Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
91. Fighting amongst ourselves...
Edited on Tue Jan-26-10 08:44 PM by Neoconstipated
is exactly what those right wing nazi bastards want.

We need to fight the fascists with a united front.
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Slit Skirt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. read above.... we need to stay tight
we need to stay united and we need to hold these people not only accountable...but make them really, really uncomfortable.

damn fascists
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
93. I'm on OUR side :)
there should be no sides at DU, only Democrats and those who support progressive policy. No one should attack you for supporting the president and no one should attack me for pushing him as hard as possible to the left. Sure, we should disagree with each other because that's what makes this site interesting, but should we really be attempting to shut down the debate or shout down a different viewpoint?


It is said that a fool and her money are soon parted, and believe me, I'd easily part with a generous amount of my money, just to be able to recommend your thread a thousand times.

Thank you!
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
94. I remember the DU table at the illegal inauguration protest in SF.
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

Seriously though, the tent had to get bigger to accommodate former republicans and "new" democrats. No single purpose, not anymore. I do believe the site should always be anti-fascist in whatever form it takes, but that's just me and it ain't my site. :hi:
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
95. I agree, except for the part that this is new, DU has always been like this imo
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
96. Looks to me like ALL of DU understands we need to move to the LEFT . .. .
EVERYONE HERE SEEMS TO BE MAKING THAT CLEAR!!!

I don't see the "two sides" you're seeing --

DLC is still with us, still pushing corporatism --

Not everyone here seems to have awakened to that yet!!

But from what I can see the majority is calling for the administration to

move to the LEFT -- just as MASS Election called for a move to the LEFT --

Just as most of us have understood for 40+ years . . . as the Democratic

Party has been corrupted and attacked by corporate $$ --
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Autonomy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
97. We lack a common enemy
which was our unifying force. Besides hating republicans, I don't have very much in common with most of you in regard to worldview. Well, maybe we do have a lot in common, but nothing to talk about except where we differ. We will come together again when we lose the majority and the presidency.

Just to pat myself on the back for prescience, I wrote about this very thing in mid-2006. Check my journal. I don't add much to it anymore, sadly.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 09:35 PM
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101. It says it all
that the first response to your OP is "deleted subthread."
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-27-10 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
106. co-sign
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