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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:42 PM
Original message
US accused of annexing airport as squabbling hinders aid effort in Haiti - The Guardian
The Guardian

US accused of annexing airport as squabbling hinders aid effort in Haiti

Priority landing for Americans forces flights carrying emergency supplies to divert to Dominican Republic

Rory Carroll, Latin America correspondent, and Daniel Nasaw in Washington
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 17 January 2010 21.56 GMT
Link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/17/us-accused-...

The US military's takeover of emergency operations in Haiti has triggered a diplomatic row with countries and aid agencies furious at having flights redirected.

Brazil and France lodged an official protest with Washington after US military aircraft were given priority at Port-au-Prince's congested airport, forcing many non-US flights to divert to the Dominican Republic.

Brasilia warned it would not relinquish command of UN forces in Haiti, and Paris complained the airport had become a US "annexe", exposing a brewing power struggle amid the global relief effort. The Red Cross and Mdecins Sans Frontires also complained about diverted flights.

The row prompted Haiti's president, Ren Prval, to call for calm. "This is an extremely difficult situation," he told AP. "We must keep our cool to co-ordinate and not throw accusations at each other."
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. The people of Haiti don't need the infighting, they need cooperation. Preval gave the US permission
to take over the airport.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Well you could argue that he gave us permission after we took it by
de-facto...

Oh wait, I might give some folks ammo... oh well.

:hi:
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
56. To be fair, Preval was put in power by the US Military
After we ousted the democratically elected Aristide for a second time... just saying. :shrug:
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happy_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #56
68. just a slightly important fact there
nt
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #68
108. If Hugo Chavez had said this, the result would be an outpouring of hate from DUers
who are utterly ignorant and unfamiliar with the history of US foreign policy and reliance on disaster relief for diplomatic cover in the caribbean.

Oh wait, there IS! In this thread! Against those scum-suckin' French and Brazilians and other nations not blessed with our military might!

See for yourself here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Historically uninformed citizens are the perfect patsies.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
140. The people of Haiti and the rest of the world don't need to
be bullied either. When a CARICOM team was turned back, that's beyond going too far. Haiti is a member of CARICOM.

Running the airport doesn't mean you own it and can decide that US interests take over in Haiti.
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LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. Somebody had to secure the airport... They had no tower left and there was absolute
chaos at the airport and thus no way to get flights in and out of the country safely.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Why not the UN forces who already had a mission there?
Do you think only America has crowd control skills?
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. the UN forces at most times are a joke, ask anyone who has ever worn the blue beret
they need to have the support and logistics of the professional militaries in order to run anything more than a roadblock, do you really think the UNFOR guys have the ability to do air traffic control for the airport at this time...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. USA! USA! The ICRC is also complaining that their flights have been diverted.
So, what we did is basically run over all the other entities already involved on the ground in our rush to make sure Aristide can't come back. Nice!

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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. so what, who else was in the area who could do the air traffic control, not the UN
if you need to pluck someone out of the ocean in the bering sea you want a coast guard helo, you dont use a help based in marseille just to be polite, you use the best assets on site. if the US military hadnt of taken control of the airfield there would be no aircraft coming in as you need more than a cellphone to land 50+ aircraft a day..
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Um, BRAZIL is leading the UN mission and they seem to land planes
just fine.

Seriously, there's a whole big world out there with a bunch of people who are skilled and everything. They have fire and use tools and have language.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. wow you dont say, i suppose they also have dedicated air traffic controllers and abilities that the
warships dont, you do realise that once again the best assets are the ones that you should use.. and the rest of the world out there understands that nothing beats a hammer for hammering nails...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. When all you have is a hammer . . .
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. and if you have one hammer and the other guys have 100 hammers and more experience
then you go with them...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. You realize that you're advocating "might is right" when Brazil
has all the skill and manpower needed plus they're not bogged down in two stupid wars.

Whatever.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. thats the point they dont, they dont have the experience of the US when it comes to airlifts, sea
lifts etc, tell me the last time that brazil did a massive airlift or sealift of equipment, you are blinding yourself to the fact that you want the people who have the experience to do this shit not somebody who theoretically might be able to do it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #37
57. I think that your nationalistic bubble is too thick to be penetrated.
And it's still Sunday here anyway. :)
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #57
61. what nationalistic bubble, i just know that if i want airlift or sealift then the US does it better,
PS i got my complaints about the US military as well, but i recognise the stuff they do well...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #61
69. You know, this really isn't about what we do well.
This is about playing well with others.

And it's about influence. It's a lot about influence -- which is right outside of what our military does at all. This is about State, imho.

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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #69
73. see thats the whole point its not about playing well with others, its about getting the aid in
if you are starving you dont care if the guys fixing up the runway and bringing the aid in have pissed of the guys who wanted to do it, you just want it done. There was no one else able to control the airspace in situ and with the experience, im sure next time an earthquake hits CA you woulnt care if mexico took over the aircraft control rather than NGO's etc if the US couldnt..
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #73
81. You're looking at it from the point of view of the victims
and not the government.

This isn't only about relief. It's also about an unstable political situation. And our government hasn't allowed that in Haiti for 203 years.

No, when my condo liquifies on the San Francisco beach, I won't care who brings food in. But my government will not have the same priorities. :shrug:
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #81
86. and your missing the point the victims are all that matters not what you want politically to happen
ive yet to give aid to someone to have them say i dont agree with your politics can you take it back and get someone french or brazilian to bring it to me...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #86
153. No, they're two separate but related issues. You're thinking
either/or and I'm considering both. Chewing gum and walking. I'm not having paroxysms over either issue but simply watching them both. I must be doing a really bad job of communicating that. Whatever.

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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. Yer jus' workin' yer ass off to paint the US effort as wrongheaded, aren't ya?
Lord, give it a rest.

It ain't working.

:eyes:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Sure. Me and the ICRC, Doctors Without Borders, Italy, France, Brazil.
We're just trying to tank DU.

:rofl:
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. Except for Brazil and France, it's hearsay. Some guardian writer sez they complained.
And you sucked it all right up!!!

And you're kicking this thread because you love the drama...

But you're alone in this, look around.

:rofl:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. France did file a complaint with State
but flights have been tasked and diverted from word go. Hell the Mexican Air Force had two of its flights diverted to Puerto Domingo and could not come in for 12 hours. And a US Rescue team is still stuck in Sacramento...

No this is the usual crap that shows about now in the timeline.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. Yes, that is true. My hearsay comment referred to Doctors Without Borders and the Red Cross...
the article claims that they also complained.

Well, even if they did I'm with you, Nadin, that these things become a little territorial, it's just the way it is.

But I haven't heard anything from Medicins San Frontiers or the International Red Cross about complaints and I'm not going to take the guardian's author's word on it.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. The ICRC, if they did, will not make it public
after all WE transported their MASH unit from strategic reserves in Panama to DR and it was trucked in overnight.

Don't know about Doctors without Borders, but the ICRC keeps these things pretty much under wraps... so the reporter has a pretty damn good source.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #47
141. Then you should look around a bit
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MUAD_DIB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Somewhat sad, isn't it?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #44
63. What is really sad here is the myopia that believes
the Pentagon is the solvent of all things.

THAT'S sad, especially considering what a corrupt institution that is.

Sad, indeed.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #63
80. no what is sad is that you would rather lambast the pentagon ans see it fail
than see it get the airlift and sealift up and running, whether you like it or not there is no one on the planet better at moving shit loads of stuff into the worst areas than the US military, who else could get fecking coke machines right up to the FEBA...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #80
154. You're attributing wishes to me that I don't have. n/t
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #41
53. jeez, will you stop your ridiculous ad hominem attacks already?

:thumbsdown:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #41
55. Right. Nobody agrees with me so I should hurry to another position.
lol

There's going to be a lot of tension in Haiti, especially because this State Department has been so hamfisted. This may well be the best relief effort we've ever mounted and it still operates in the shadow of our history and of our current agenda.

That you find any of that funny says a lot about you. :)

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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. every one of you experienced in running airlift operations with assets in place.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #42
60. Right. Doctors Without Borders, the ICRC have never operated
under crisis.

France, Brazil, Italy -- amateurs!

You're hilarious.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #60
67. okay once again which one of these has operated an airlift of the size we are going to need
if i need stitches ill go to the docs, if i want an airfield and port up and running and hundreds of flights a day to land at a one runway airstrip ill go with the US military, once again when was the last time France or Italy ran an airlift operation, and as to brazil forget it..
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #67
71. Which is basically a rationalization for stomping all over
the other actors on the ground.

Needless conflict in an already tense situation.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #71
77. or youstomp all over them to get it done, sometimes to many chefs spoil the broth
wait until it all settles down and you will see all the NGO's fighting with each other till doomsday, sometimes you need the biggest guy just to take charge and get shit done...
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #67
97. While you building your airfield,
people are dying. After it's built it will be too late to do what it is being built for, assuming the purpose is to save lives.

Of those 200 flights that are landing, some could wait to make room for those orgs which are urgently needed right now. Clearly there is enough of an airfield to land those flights, and it should be used right now to get in as many life-saving organizations as possible. Priorities. They can improve the capacity of the airfield AFTER everyone has landed.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. there are already orgs on the ground, im not running the ramp there so i dont know whats coming in
neither do you, supplies are what is needed now, there is a short window in which to get food and water in and i think they may be starting to do triage and be planning to save the greatest numbers, remember this is unprecented a disaster, so many people in such a small area, they may be looking at numbers now and be planning for the worst...
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #98
105. Well, the number of people complaining, especially
major organizations like the Red Cross and DWB, suggests that there are not nearly enough orgs on the ground. And the cries for help from those taking care of the wounded, many saying they expect their charges to die before help arrives, seems to say the nothing is more needed than those groups the U.S. has refused to allow to land.

Of course I don't know what's coming in. But I know that the complaints are coming from some very reputable and experience people and I imagine since THEY seem to know what is coming, they would not lie. The World Food Org. has said that the U.S. military operation is 'all about security' while they are 'all about feeding the hungry'. I think they know more than either you or I.

As the complaints increase, (and really, who put the U.S. in charge of other countries and orgs,) I hope the State Dept. or the administration will re-prioritize the goals of the military.

As I mentioned below, I have read that the very size of the U.S. operation is slowing things down. I'm sure they are planning to save lives, but it is now six days since the earthquake happened. There isn't time to plan, it is way past time to act and that is what those Orgs and Countries were prepared to do. Why stop them, it doesn't make sense as I agree with you on what is urgently needed. But you are speaking as thought the U.S. alone can provide it and that is simply not the case.



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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #105
106. yup i ahve a feeling that they are trying t get numbers in so when the aid starts to roll in
they can control it until saturation point is reached, it can get very scarey when aid first starts to roll out until you get to the point where everyone is being provided for, you lose people in the short term but the ability to control the roll out mean more survive in the end, its not nice but when you are dealing with numbers like this it can become a numbers game...
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #106
114. Well, there are many rescuers already in the country who
got there before the U.S. started blocking people from entering. Spanish crews, Venezuelans, Chileans among others have been there saving lives from the first day. All I'm saying is that there is absolutely no reason not to give priority to those experienced organizations from various countries and provide a few spaces out of all their flights to get the help in that is needed.

I just read below that the U.S. is being accused of evacuating Americans, taking up airspace that other countries need to get to the victims. If that is true, then that is a horrible decision. Diverting needed aid to the Dominican Republican from where it will take precious time to get to the victims, instead of diverting the evacuees to the Dominican Republic whose needs are nowhere as great as those buried under the rubble, that is unconscionable if true. It reminds me of the Belgians being evacuated from Rwanda, leaving behind those poor people most of whom were slaughtered later.

France, apparently, has filed a complaint.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #114
117. this is common they just throw them on the empty planes leaving who have brought aid in
its actually pretty common in every disaster, you can bet every french aircraft or any other nationality that brings in aid will do the same...
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #117
130. Then why would France file a complaint if they themselves
were doing it? We don't know if they sent special planes to evacuate Americans. I don't understand why other countries would be complaining if it is a routine practice, and not a special mission.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #130
131. tell you what you keep on with the conspiracy stuff, you do realise that they dont need special
planes there are 200 planes a day leaving empty to throw people in, you need to go back through history there has never been a disaster where the west especially but everyone else does it throw their citizens into the aid planes to get them out... sheesh you think this is the first time there has ever been a disaster...
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #131
134. If a conspiracy theory consists of saying 'we don't know all the facts'
I will certainly keep doing it until we get the facts. What we do know is that for some reason, other countries are being prevented from getting into Haiti since the U.S. arrived and so far, at least one of them has filed a complaint against the U.S. for using the supposedly limited airspace to evacuate Americans.

If what they are doing is standard procedure, then no one would be complaining, would they? This is called a 'deduction' based on the facts we do know. So, at this point, with the facts we do have, the only logical deduction is that what is happening is not standard procedure.

You, also based only on the facts we do have, have come up with your own deduction, or conspiracy theory if you like.

The bottom line is that the U.S. has pushed everyone else out of the way and taken control of the airport. Before that people seemed to be getting into the country without any problems. Countries seemed to be cooperating with each other.

If let's say, France or any other country had taken over the airport and stopped American aid from getting in, Americans would be screaming about it. And rightly so. Do you think we are somehow superior to other nations? Because that is how you are coming across. As if we rule the world and therefore do not have to cooperate with other countries. I know that's how it was under Bush, but we no longer have him as an excuse for behaving like this.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #134
136. lol im telling you that every plane that ever lands in sits like this gets people thrown in it and
evacced, you do know that there are french citizens who have also been evacced in this manner and probuably every other westerner that turns up at the airport as well as shitloads of haitians, its standard operating procedure to get mouths out of the area on the empty planes, but if you believe that these planes are carrying american business owners in to check on their factories you just keep on going...
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #136
138. See my response to your last comment.
Seems like we were all wrong, and you were right about the evacuation situation. :hi:
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #138
139. thanks, just talking from experience of how crazy these things get...
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suzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #134
164. I think we're superior to the French.
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suzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #130
148. Why should we pay any attention to France?
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #130
171. Because France has a special relationship with Haiti.
They may not have colonies, but they try to maintain a paternalistic relationship with their ex-colonies.
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suzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #171
178.  I don't know that making former Haitian slaves repay their slavemasters
in France by forcing the new nation at gunpoint to agree to a huge debt to France that would take over a century to repay, that in many years cost 80% of the Haitian government's income, and that kept Haiti from being able to invest in its own economic development--I don't think that I'd call that a "paternalistic relationship".

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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #97
170. The problem is we're arguing from silence.
What are the 200 flights in per day? Food? Water? Security? Equipment for helping to clear roads? Generators? Medical supplies and equipment?

We hear that some (not all) French flights or MsFrontieres flights are rerouted. We don't hear what's going in instead. We hear that American flights are postponed. We don't hear why.

We hear how horrible it is that there are flights taking Americans out. What else should be on the planes? 200 flights a day, that would be an awful lot of Haitians, mostly unskilled and without much education, to take those high-paying H1-B jobs in the US and comparable professions in Germany. Cheaper and less disruptive--to them--to let them be displaced in their own country, at least they have friends and family and know the area.

We do hear that there were a handful of flights going in a day or two after the quake and that planes were parked in strange places, the control tower wasn't in operation, and for hours a plane was blocking the runway. Nobody was stepping up to assume control. The UN didn't. The Haitians couldn't. The Brazilians weren't there moving the plane and imposing order.

The problem isn't that there's order. The problem is who's imposing order. Anybody but the US can do a better job, even if they do a worse job, because they're not under suspicion.
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suzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #60
147. Again, France.
You are so ridiculous citing France.
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suzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #35
146. France. The nation that bankrupted Haiti, that destroyed their chance for any kind
of development for their populace.

You want to cite France as complaining about the U.S. in Haiti?

France should just send money and try to get everyone else to cancel Haiti's debts.
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malletgirl02 Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #146
151. Didn't you get the memo?
:sarcasm:Everything France has done since it was formed was good, every thing the US has done has been bad? :Sarcasm:
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #21
59. YES, Brazil has dedicated air traffic controllers and abilities that the warships don't.
They don't have all their planes tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan like the 87th Airborne.

Check and mate.

You do realize that Brazil has a modern ATC infrastructure... as or more modern than FAA.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #59
66. You do of course realize that the USS Vinson has its own command and
control and tower.

And this is not about the Brazilians not being able to do it, they did not have the people THERE. The USCG, for other reasons, was closer and was capable of taking initial tower control.

There is an old adage in disaster (and military) response, authority by position.

Now we'll see what happens tomorrow morning at the Security Council.

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suzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #66
169. Thank you, nadinbrzezinski, for bringing the common sense of someone
who's been involved in disaster relief to the discussion.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #59
70. rofl mayby brazil does have them, but its hard to control aircraft from the control tower in brazil
thats landing in haiti, much better to let the guys there handle it..
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #70
72. Brazil is leading the UN mission in Haiti.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #72
89. so what, what assets do they command that could get the job done quicker
i dont why you think the UNFOR is in any position to get this job done, its not... you need a hell of a lot of assets and the experience to use them and unless you are going to take the US military on the scene and make them blue berets and give an american commander authority over them then you are not going to get better than the US forces in situ..
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #89
93. If Brazil is leading the mission, then Brazil has command and control. They decide.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #93
96. no they dont, they have control over the UN side and thats it,
unless all the others coming in get blue berets they stay under their own command structure... or do you really think that say a brazilian colonel should be given command over a couple of divisions, a carrier group and all the other assets, that would be like making you mayor of NY....
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. um ... the "UN forces" are drawn from the professional militaries of cooperating countries:
they are no more or less of a "joke" than the militaries of the countries that are supplying the UN troops
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. The State Department apparently doesn't want Brazil
calling the shots in Haiti.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #28
64. Because State Dep wants Haiti to be US Puppet State, like the guys on the "Haiti 51st State?" thread
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 12:13 AM by Leopolds Ghost
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #64
99. So i guess as long as their not a puppet state then if they all die it dosent matter????
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #64
177. You mean President Obama and SOS Clinton
want Haiti to be a US puppet state?
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. and you do realise that a lot of the countries supplying the forces have joke militarys
or do you really believe that all militarys are at the same level of professionalism.. hell only a handful of militarys are professional most are conscripts ot militias at best...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #34
65. You mean "joke militarys" like the ones that produce Lindy Englands?
What are we talking here?
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #65
84. lol yes if you think she is the sum of the US military, theres a 100 better examples in just about
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 12:37 AM by vadawg
every military in the world, but outside of the first world and a few exceptions the militarys of the world are jokes... you need to spend some time with other countries militarys to see just how bad some of them are...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #84
161. I have intimate and personal experience with the armies
of third world nations, thanks.

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PacerLJ35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #161
172. So do I, and there's a reason why many of them are mostly good on paper...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #172
181. No one can beat the Pentagon for being good on paper.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. First they were decapitated
second they did not have Forwards Air Controllers....

I am sure you understand this.

If the UN mission was manned by Canucks (who have FACs, as an MOS) I am sure they would not have had a FAC either... that was not their mission.
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MUAD_DIB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. The UN Forces were seriously F'ed up in the quake. Their HQ is in ruins,

and their command structure took a beating.



So, yes the Americans were there to take control.


Seriously WTF??!! Just a few days ago DUers were crying that the US wasn't doing enough, and now they're doing too much?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. The two top guys in the mission died in the earthquake.
An awful loss.

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MUAD_DIB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Certainly it is. Haiti is also going to be feeling

this awful loss for some long time to come.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Yes, I know. I was in Berkeley during the Loma Prieta quake
my house slid off of its foundation, downtown Oakland was flattened and the Cypress Structure pancaked (a route I'd used only a week before to commute to work). I had a weekly commitment on the other side of the bay. My 40 minute drive took 2.5 hours each way. And that's a small thing in a much smaller quake. But it took literally years to recover from that one.

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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
158. Because the US is *always* bad
no matter what it does, especially by armchair quarterbacks who are sitting comfy at home & have absolutely no fucking clue what they are talking about.

dg
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
127. Crowd control????
If the Brazilians wanted to be a helpful force, first they would need to get themselves out of the same mess the rest of population is in.

The point is not crowd control; the point is air traffic control. No one on there at the time had the capability. The US military came in and brought the capability with them. Could any other military have done it? Absolutely, they could. However, we got there first and we did what was needed. And now, according to other posts, there are 200 planes coming and going safely.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
150. UN operations hit hard in Haiti - Summary
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. Here is what is going on, truly
things are going on actually very well.

This kind of finger pointing starts by day two when things are not going well.

When they are... this starts by day four.

It is predictable... and it is like clockwork in any disaster.

This is the stoopid of nationalism coming out and rearing its ugly head...

and this is what the people working in the field want to do...

:banghead:

Just a I am not surprised or shocked at all. Oh and once the port comes back on line a lot of this will more or less take a back road, as one ship can transport a lot more stuff than a C-130... they just take longer to get there.
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MUAD_DIB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Seriously, this is laughable.

Does anybody even try to think for a few minutes before they post?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Mostly I have experienced it
and seen it.

As in the field.

Have you? And as a provider, no less.
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MUAD_DIB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I am speaking relative to this place called DU and the reactions here.

Why aren't we helping them yet?

Why hasn't everything been fixed yet?

Who do we think we are that we can do that?



Which leads me back to my query: does anybody think before they post?

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Oh that, well if the pixie dust and the teleporters are found
:-)

You may laugh, and Orrex posted a good one, but no link to that...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. It's an article from The Guardian
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 11:45 PM by autorank
(Edited for, uh, stupidity)

Go read the full article. It's interesting.
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MUAD_DIB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
39. I will, and I wasn't refering to you.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. I stand corrected
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
20. That doesn't answer the question of why
aid from other countries is being diverted ~
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. they are prioritizing the aircraft as they come in, which ones have pertinent supplies and people
which ones can and cant be diverted, not all aid is equal.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
38. Doctors Without Borders are an experienced
organization well prepared for situations like this. As is the Red Cross. They were diverted. Those organizations should have been given priority. This is reminiscent of what happened in NOLA, when vital services such as trucks loaded with water were blocked from the city.

The Red Cross and Mdecins Sans Frontires also complained about diverted flights.

Lives hang in the balance. More than anything, Haiti needs doctors and food and water. Why can the U.S. not make sure these reputable organizations get into the country and work with them?

Flights seeking permission to land continuously circle the airport, which is damaged and has only a single runway, rankling several governments and aid agencies. "There are 200 flights going in and out every day, which is an incredible amount for a country like Haiti," Jarry Emmanuel, air logistics officer for the UN's World Food Programme, told the New York Times. "But most flights are for the US military. Their priorities are to secure the country. Ours are to feed. We have got to get those priorities in sync."


Up to now, reports have been that the country was relatively calm considering the devastation. Naturally as people become more desperate, that could change. What is the best way to prevent that? I would think it would be to get in as much help as possible as fast as possible. 'Securing the country' ~ what does that mean if they are preventing the much needed help which would make 'law enforcement' far less necessary, from getting to these desperate, starving and dying people?
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #38
75. UN World Food Prog: "(US ATC) priorities are to secure the country" w/military. Not "to feed".
Straight from the source.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #75
85. Yes, I read that and I hope that Obama will pay attention
to these protests. Otherwise, it will seem to the world that Hugo's concerns may have been justified after all.
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #23
101. The French govt claims that the US has in fact prioritized evacuting Americans at
the expense of aid flights from other countries. They have filed an offical complaint.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #101
107. Wow, that would be unforgiveable if true. I did wonder
how so many people were being interviewed here who had 'just arrived from Haiti'. But I assumed they were going to the Dominican Republican and leaving from there, or being taken out, if they were injured, by helicopter.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #107
109. this is common, theres no point in flying out empty planes and its less mouths to feed
every country does this,
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #109
129. Well, it looks like France isn't doing it.
I'm also wondering how many flights are bringing in American business owners to oversee their 'interests' in Haiti ~

And maybe those flights should be evacuating injured Haitians rather than those who were not affected and could wait a few more days to get home.

We'll have to wait and see, but if the priorities are not to get to the injured and hungry first, there will be International outrage over the US taking over the only airport where orgs were getting into the country before they did so.


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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #129
132. lol its not even worth arguing this one with you
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #132
137. It's not worth arguing when you don't know what prompted
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 03:26 AM by sabrina 1
the complaints. So, rather than continue to speculate, I have looked for some more information on the evacuation complaint. It seems that you may have been right about other countries doing the same thing.

However, the complaint arose from an assumption that the U.S. was evacuating Americans but preventing France from evacuating their citizens. The U.S. has denied that.

According to the reports I read, contrary to claims that everything is running smoothly, it seems there is chaos at the airport. That sounds a lot more realistic than the claims I've seen here and it makes it more understandable as to why planes are having a problem landing.

The French plane with the field hospital did eventually land after all, and apparently some of the French citizens finally were evacuated. Some of those evacuated were in a state of trauma having survived when others did not.

It appears all the frustration on all sides is due to a very difficult situation, rather than hubris on the part of the U.S. and, if the reports are true, the fault lies with the horrific conditions in the country with everyone becoming frustrated and doing the best they can under the circumstances.

Here is a link to one of the reports I read ~

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/afp/20100117/twl-haiti-quake-u...

So it seems we were all wrong. :-)

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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #137
160. Its hard to come to any conclusions. For instance it is only today

that US has agreed to give priority to humanitarian aid rather than to US military.


snip



ROME The U.N. food agency reached an agreement Monday with the U.S.-run airport in the Haitian capital to give humantarian aid flights priority in landing - a deal that came after the U.S. military was criticized for giving top billing to military and rescue aircraft.

An air slot system, similar to one used during the Indonesian tsunami emergency and the Pakistan earthquake, has been established to make sure that planes carrying food and medicine get priority in landing, World Food Program executive director Josette Sheeran told reporters.

"Even though the slots are limited and the need is great, we now have the co-ordination mechanism to prioritize the humanitarian flights coming in," Sheeran said.

Over the weekend, the aid group Doctors Without Borders complained of skewed priorities and a supply bottleneck at the U.S.-controlled airport in the Haitian capital of Port-au-Prince amid reports that U.S. military flights were getting priority.



http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/...
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #129
157. You do know that US flights are taking Haitians
for treatment in Florida... oh you mean you did not realize this?
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #107
133. Its hard to know what to make of these reports.
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 02:54 AM by snagglepuss

snip

- NYT reports on aid delivery problems: "Even as the United States took a leading role in aid efforts, some aid officials were describing misplaced priorities, accusing United States officials of focusing their efforts on getting their people and troops installed and lifting their citizens out...There are 200 flights going in and out every day, which is an incredible amount for a country like Haiti, said Jarry Emmanuel, the air logistics officer for the agencys Haiti effort. But most of those flights are for the United States military. He added: Their priorities are to secure the country. Ours are to feed. We have got to get those priorities in sync."





http://www.webofdemocracy.org/haitis_temporary_sovereig...
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #101
156. And they are wrong
or I would have imagined the Mexican Government, the Canadians and others evacuating their own nationals.

This happens every time. Some of the children play politics every time.

Dime on the dollar that if SOMEBODY ELSE controlled teh airport would be complaining. The same happened in Mexico City... and for god sakes that was an Airport the size of JFK, with the same capacity... and yep, right on schedule, by day four different nations started accusing the host nation of playing favorites for landing rights.

Bear in mind that airport was NEVER closed for civilian flights either.

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suzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #101
163. The French, you're kidding right, you want us to listen to the FRENCH, about
Haiti?

It's the poorest nation in the hemisphere, BECAUSE OF THE ########## FRENCH?

Or perhaps you don't know about the history of France trying to bankrupt Haiti, into the late 1940s?

Try this link. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_amer...

Or the shortened version. France made Haiti pay for the freedom of its slaves and for French property until 1947. At some times, the payment on the debt was 80% of the tiny nation's income.

In fact, maybe you want to make it an OP. "How much aid should the international community levy upon the French for what they did to Haiti?" The "celestial French"?

But by all means, please do not tell us what complaints the French have against other nations trying to aid the Haitians.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. The US is firmly in control in Haiti it's just out in the open now
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 11:23 PM by EFerrari
as far as I can tell.

And France, Italy, Brazil, Doctors Without Borders and the ICRC can just fall into line.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. Yes, and people had a problem with the concerns expressed
by Ortega and Chavez ~ I'm sure those two leaders just voiced what many others are saying privately. It is now up to Obama to order the military to allow orgs like Doctors Without Borders and the Red Cross into the country as soon as possible. Time is running out for the wounded and anyone still alive under the rubble.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #25
79. No duh. Haiti is and was a US-UN Protectorate, not an independent state!
Just backing up what you're saying. :hi:
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #25
103. +10,000!!!!!!!!!! makes me sick..people are dying damn it!..thousands ! eom
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
46. Simple, one airport, that can handle on a good day
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 11:51 PM by nadinbrzezinski
70 airframes.

They have over 200 coming in.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. Did you read the article?
Most of the those flights are U.S. military flights. Why? I think I have confidence that organizations experienced with these kinds of disasters know what they are talking about. Certain life-saving, reputable orgs like Doctors Without Borders and The Red Cross should have been included on the list of flights. I'm sure some of those U.S. flights could have made room for them. It looks like many countries and organizations believe that also.

'Security' V 'Feeding and caring for people'.

When people are getting the help they need, security will be less of a concern. The best people to provide those services have been prevented from getting into the country. That makes no sense at all. Priorities seem to be out of order, as many are saying and I agree.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. Simple we have 7000 airframes
that we can launch... no other air force can launch that many airframes, they simply don't have them. Look this may not be popular but we are putting twice into this pot than all other militaries combined, by quantity. Some militaries, in percentage of population, economy and military budget are putting in the same to the effort. This runs down for Mexico, for example to a few air force and Navy missions, and two ships, as well as 80 on the ground specialists... or a few more, and supplies of course.

So we flying the bulk of the missions of course we are... we have most of the logistical capability and this is not going USA, it is reality. Hell we are even flying them for other organizations like oh the ICRC.

I wish they could do more, and that the airport could handle more...

Now to security you scoff... but it is essential. It goes hand in hand... human nature gets to be really ugly when you do not have food, water and shelter...

And they are already providing food and water... no, not just the US Military either.



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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #54
76. First priority should be to save lives.
Before the U.S. got there, others managed to get in, like Venezuela eg and who knows how many lives they have saved?

'Not popular' ~ it's not a question of popularity, it's a question of priorites. Just being the 'biggest' doesn't mean the 'best'. In fact, I have read that the very size of the U.S. operation is what is slowing things down.

It's great that they are there. And I admire the soldiers, many of whom have already said how much they prefer this kind of humanitarian mission than Iraq or Afghanistan eg. But I'm sorry, the U.S. is NOT the only country capable of doing what is needed there. Bringing in massive amounts of equipment doesn't save lives in the short term. And this is an emergency. The window for saving lives, with simple things like water and food and doctors, is closing fast.

If someone is crying out for help you don't stop to go find a perfect piece of equipment knowing that by the time you get back, that person will be dead. Time is of the essence, and as a I said already, right now according to just about everyone who knows how to handle these kinds of disasters, the U.S. is wasting precious time by preventing them from getting to those in need.

Maybe they need to scale down their military operation until all the smaller, life-saving organizations are on the ground. And it is not clear at all that what Haiti needs right now is a military operation. What they need is humanitarian help.

I'm hoping that Clinton and Obama will intervene since other countries and organizations have protested.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #76
82. How many teams are on the ground right now?
30 last count.

What do you think these teams are doing?

Here is the problem for the people on the ground.

If you are going to save lives you need to bring your search and rescue people and medical people... but it reaches a point when you actually bring in more food, and delay a medical hospital. It is a damn balancing act...

It comes down to... to simplify this... if we have 1000 gauzes, but no food...

Look I did at a place with FAR LESS resources than the US...

But I am also aware of the damn fucking poltics that this is. As we used to put it, egos come in and the children start fighting. This is so damn predictable.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #82
94. I understand your point and I believe that those teams are
doing a good job. But as you point out, no matter how good any one group is, they will run out of supplies at some point. I am not suggesting that the teams who are on the ground not continue with their work. But 200 flights a day, most by the U.S. military are not bringing in teams, like Doctors Without Borders, or other groups whose expertise is in providing food and medical care and are equipped to do so. I'm saying as is apparently everyone else, that some of those flights could wait so that the more urgently required orgs can be accommodated.

As for politics, sorry, accusing these groups of politics is just wrong. Many of them are people who have dedicated and risked their lives to help people in disaster areas. They have every right to be frustrated that ONE COUNTRY is preventing from getting to the people who need them. If anyone is playing politics it looks to be the U.S. right now, attempting to control everything. It is coming across as arrogance and we have enough of an image problem around the world without turning this disaster into another reason for people to be angry at the U.S.

It's simple, work with other people for a change. We are not the rulers of the world, much as many Americans seem to think so, nor the only country that is capable of understanding and providing services in a situation like this. All delays mean loss of life. That is what matters.

Spanish teams, Venezuelans, Cubans and Chileans all have been there since day one. If the U.S. had arrived first, none of those teams would have been able to save the lives they saved. Fortunately they got there before the U.S.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #94
159. You are aware an American C-130 flew the ICRC MASH unit from Panama
And they are bringing people, and taking people out.

I know people are not seeing the whole picture, but my educated eye tells me this is PURE and SHEER politics and it happens when things are going RIGHT by day four... when things are not going right by day two.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #54
83. The only ugly human nature I am seeing is goons hired by elite shooting at scavengers.
Haiti's elite spared from devastation -- "We are fine. We just need security. Send in the Marines, OK?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

US Marines are being brought in to continue those efforts, not put a stop to them.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #83
88. given the Marines are not going to be doing that
ok.

As to the elites... and what is new?

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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #88
92. You can't focus on security without shooting at people unless aclimate of security exists.
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 12:38 AM by Leopolds Ghost
If a climate of reasonable security exists then the first priority should not be security but (as you and Selatius and others with relief work experience have pointed out.)

1. search and rescue.

(we missed out on this phase, the other nations are mostly doing this and the time window is almost over. the only US teams sent in to do search and rescue I've heard about are focusing on US nationals in the Montana hotel, etc.)

2. Food and water

3. recovery and removal of bodies in an organized fashion

(yes, the bodies after Katrina were bloated too, I don't think they dumped them haphazardly in piles or burned them in place)

4. Health care

5. Clear major roads.

6. Security (next to last on the list)

7. Set up internal displacement camps.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #92
173. It rather depends.
The UN peacekeeping mission there had trouble establishing order before the quake over some parts of the urban area because of gangs. Now, send in medical teams and food that would threaten those gangs' authority and what do you have?

Many of those areas are the poorest, most crowded, and most shoddily built. They're going to have some of the worst problems to deal with.

For some, this is a crisis that is too good to waste. In such cases, unless we're really into sacrificing people to maintain an a priori ordered list, we move security up a bit. The list is nice is general, and may even be useful in some settings. But not all.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #173
182. Bingo, why Resscue teams
had security with them, CNN even showed it today by accident I am sure. They showed the IDF medics handing a kid over to their crew. The cameraman got the security guy, a trooper with a shotgun and an assault rifle

The Mexican press reported the ERUM team, the Civil Defense Team and the rest had UN protection, as in armed protection.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #52
58. exactly. +1
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #52
90. That is not the priority of the current US Admin. Note they have no problem w/ how Katrina handled.
They even put the architect of the Katrina debacle and his predecessor in charge of the relief effort -- (who are both personally responsible for ousting Haiti's last demnocratically elected leader, and want to make sure it remainds a US client state, keep Brazil/Venezuela out, that is the source of their experience.)

They didn't even bother to visit NOLA after the election, endorsed the Republican governor's plans to tear down and sell off much of NOLA's public housing and other public infrastructure (I attended one of the meetingsa on Capitol Hill) and thseir only concern is security. If Katrina happened again the response of the Obama Admin would be to militarize it.
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EmeraldCityGrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #20
100. It's called Disaster Capitalism.
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 12:52 AM by EmeraldCityGrl
Read Naomi Klein's book, "The Shock Doctrine." Disasters create opportunities for the corporatists.

I't's never merely about the people on the ground. Everyone want's a piece of the pie and this is a big pie.
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suzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
180. I think it's difficult for a lot of people to grasp the significance of the
fact that there's only one runway and no taxiways at the airport.

Or how important the port being out of commission is if you're dealing with a disaster on an island.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. .
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
27. OMG! While people are dying, folks are squabbling and pointing fingers.....
THE EARTHQUAKE THAT OCCURRED IN HAITI,
a country without infrastructure,
is what killed Haitians!

and all anyone is trying to do is to help.
It ain't gonna be without flaws...

but this bullshit here is not required....really. :grr:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Maybe you should repost that to the Pentagon.n/t
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. Oh it happens every time
here is a story that actually happened during the Mexico City quake... and has been kind of kept hush hush for now decades.

I don't know who was the brilliant one who assigned the same building to the IDF team and the Jordanian team... words were exchanged... suffice it to say the Mexican army had to separate the fist to cuffs.

It is telling WHEN it happens. If it happens early, usually there are screw-ups of major proportions. If this happens by about now, things are actually going pretty well, all things considered.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
33. Better to be accused of this than
being accused of not helping. The people of Haiti need help, not bullshit bickering.


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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #33
50. That's correct
I think Nadin has it right on this but we'll know soon enough.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #33
74. Isn't this the same argument you used against Howard Dean?
lol
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #33
152. Correct - even if the 'death to america' crowd here does not understand
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
49. It certainly seems that the U.S. is showing arrogance and demanding superiority.
The world policemen have spoken. No one else counts. Invasion is the name of the game. I hope I'm wrong.
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
51. US Contingency Response Wing sent to Dominican airport to prepare as secondary location for
incoming aid since Haiti airport overwhelmed with traffic.

Nearly 50 members of a Travis Air Force Base unit were headed for the Caribbean Sunday to aid in ongoing humanitarian efforts in the wake of last week's devastating Haiti earthquake, Air Force officials said.

The 615th Contingency Response Wing stationed at Travis left early Sunday for San Isidro to help prepare the Dominican Republic location as a secondary position for humanitarian relief supplies in the region, Travis Air Force Capt. Paradon Silpasornprasit said.

With the heavily damaged Port Au Prince International Airport in Haiti overwhelmed since the 7.0-magnitude quake, the 615th -- one of two contingency response wings in the Air Force -- will bolster airfield operations in San Isidro for the expected increase of air traffic in the coming days. http://www.news10.net/news/story.aspx?storyid=73470&cat...



The wing was sent to a second location due to the overwhelming traffic at Port-au-Prince International Airport.

The 615th will assist airfield operations at San Isidro. The team consists of aerial port operators, air traffic control, air transportation and maintenance personnel. http://www.kcra.com/news/22260177/detail.html


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DeadEyeDyck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
62. the best thing to do when they bitch
is to back off and let them have it. Water wil find it's own level when left alone.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #62
78. That will never happen here. The US wants to stay in control
of Haitian politics.

Period.

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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #78
95. Keep in mind that Brazil and Venezuela are our strategic rivals in the Caribbean.
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 12:43 AM by Leopolds Ghost
US Dept of State cannot allow them to make major investments in Haiti's infrastructure.

They are comparatively left-wing, while the US Gov't is explicitly right-wing on foreign policy.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #95
167. Yep. That's it in a nutshell.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #62
91. problem is if the US just went home, then it would be a total disaster
for all the hatred towards the US military on here there is no one else who can do an operation of this magnitude, simply no one..
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happy_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
87. What is interesting is that this is an article from the Guardian UK which includes facts....
and yet the same group people of defensive people are yelling that it is just DUers complaining and their 'go to Haiti yourself' BS...this is an article people...with facts....the other countries are complaining, not DUers.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #87
143. Shouldn't we ban articles that use facts? They might force some DUers to leave because facts
sometimes contradict our illusions and that's no fun.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #143
174. Facts are nice.
Just a few, not so much.

I ran afoul of my advisor once when he showed me the draft of a paper he'd written. I had just read up on something similar for my own research, and could cite him chapter and verse on data he left out. He'd relied on just a couple of sources that he assumed were complete. They weren't. Once you included all the data, he had no argument. His argument depended crucially on an incomplete dataset.

This happens a lot. He'd even cited the more comprehensive data sources, but because this research perfectly supported the conclusion he'd reached in another article he was biased. He was pissed. He'd also received the journal containing his article (with the offprints) a day before.

The Guardian has a viewpoint. Strict adherence to all the facts that might be relevant and a discussion of their relevance, interrelatedness, and reliability in order to establish a nuanced, comprehensive understanding of a situation while discussing the pluses and minus of alternative understandings is not one of them. That, oddly, seems to be the goal of no newspaper--and precious few scholars--that I know of.
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PacerLJ35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #87
179. What makes it a fact?
Because a paper said so? Because someone they interviewed said so? Here's a big fact:

AT THE REQUEST OF ICAO AND HAITI'S NEIGHBORING STATES IN SUPPORT OF EARTHQUAKE RELIEF OPERATIONS, THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAS ESTABLISHED TEMPORARY AIR TRAFFIC FLOW MANAGEMENT PROCEDURES FOR FLIGHTS INTO MTPP. ALL FIXED-WING AIRCRAFT FLYING TO MTPP ARE REQUIRED TO BE ON AN ACTIVE IFR FLIGHTPLAN AND PRIOR TO DEPARTURE OBTAIN ARRIVAL SLOT TIMES FROM THE HAITI FLIGHT OPERATIONS COORDINATION CENTER AT 001-850-283-5477. ARRIVAL SLOT TIMES ARE VALID +/- 20 MINUTES OF THE SCHEDULED ARRIVAL TIME. IF UNABLE TO MEET SCHEDULED ARRIVAL SLOT TIMES, CONTACT THE HAITI FLIGHT OPERATIONS COORDINATION CENTER OR YOUR CONTROLLING AGENCY TO COORDINATE NEW SLOT TIMES. DEPARTURES FROM MTPP MUST COMPLY WITH NORMAL ATC PROCEDURES. ALL OPERATORS ARE ADVISED THAT FUEL AND OTHER GROUND SUPPORT SERVICES MAY BE UNAVAILABLE. WIE UNTIL UFN. CREATED: 16 JAN 16:00 2010
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
102. meet the press discussed this Sunday, and said there are many complaints that 200 flights are
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 01:20 AM by flyarm
landing , mostly US military..many of the food groups ( UN World Food )said they can not go in and land when people need basic nessesities..that the USA was more worried about securing Haiti militarily instead of the basic needs of the people of Haiti , that need food and water and medical supplies.

That was on Meet the Press Sunday morning , i am just watching the re-run of it.

And anyone questioning the French Air Force and their ability..they had more aircraft In Afghanistan ..That would be The French Air Force ..than the US did for numerous years while we were busy bombing the shit out of Iraq!
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #102
104. problem is they dont have a good airlift capacity, i would be surprised if it was more than 20 frame
no point using a mirage to try to bring aid into haiti...
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #104
111. get fucking meds in there..and docs and water and food before the fucking military i just saw
marching at the airport on my Tv..get the nessessities in there damn it!

The basic human nessesities! Fuck the security..nessessities first damn it!

or you can sit here and say..aint it great..the US secured the place but most of the country died, for lack of food and water and medical care!
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:40 AM
Original message
The Military is whats needed. That was the lesson the current Admin learned from Katrina.
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 01:41 AM by Leopolds Ghost
Why do you think they failed to prosecute the officers who shot at people trying to violate the military quarantine by escaping the city on foot?

That is the ONLY lesson they took away...

Fuck the poor and starving... as DUers keep saying "there's no good outcome, many more will die, the number one objective is to ensure security. What if the relief workers have to shoot to defend themselves? It would look bad for us!"
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
116. dude with all due respect have you ever even been in the black sales to see what crowds can do
now think of 3 million plus in that crowd and even you can see the nightmare scenarios that are going to come up.... that is a hell of a big crowd...
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #116
120. don't worry they will all be dead ..secure but dead from lack of H2O and food and medical care! eom
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #120
124. yup its called triage, you look to save the greatest numbers you can
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #116
149. yeah, I have as an overzealous group thinks they're going to get the great sale
However, I also saw what happened in NOLA--there were people helping each other after the catastrophe, while they were pleading for water, for food, for help. THREE fekkin days--by that time, I'd be angry. People watching their loved ones die of thirst, die with no medicine--something that could have been avoided. * treated it like some kind of fekkin war--gotta secure, gotta secure. Most of the reports of guns being fired were for our benefit--"see how dangerous it is in NOLA" like some fekkin foreign country.

You get rescuers in, you get doctors in, food in and especially water-then, most of the populace won't feel so helpless, angry. The more you delay the priorities, you are elevating the condition--and may actually exasperate the growing unrest.
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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
135. Please...
just go here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... and read the whole damn thing.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #111
113. problem is and i know you dont want to hear it that you need security in place
or you can end up with even more serious problems, the numbers involved in this are staggering to begin with, try feeding 3 million or more people at the same time, its not going to happen without the liklehood of control of the aid being lost and major violence. I am sure as hell glad im not going to be the one on the ground on this one, its got a lot of potential to go real bad.. Think about how people in the states react to a sale on TV's now times that by 1000's looking for food and water and you can see the potential for disaster..
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #113
122. let me tell you something..I lost my home and everything in it in the Northridge earthquake..
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 01:58 AM by flyarm
i didn't give a fucking shit about security..I did give a shit that my son had food and water ..in the heat of Los Angeles..it was 16 years ago yesterday..and I am here to tell you when we were getting fucked by a major fast food chain..we took care of it ourselves..we didn't need any government security..we needed food and fucking water..and medical care!

I gave a shit that my neighbors child was trapped in their home..not security..rescue..that is what we needed rescue and food and water..and medical care!

all the rest is a bunch of bullshit..people need the basics for life..for survival.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #122
126. and was there three million or so people, in a society that had collapsed
your line there about taking care of it yourself is the exact reason that they are worrying, imagine if the 3 million or so did the same with the aid stations, how many would die, were next would they go the airport and then what, this is the scenario i can bet that is worrying people on the ground..
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Duende azul Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #126
144. If you leave the people without water, food and medical care, prioritizing the military,
sure there will be unrest.

That way you produce the justification for the militarization. Isn't that too convenient? "See we were right to put the military first. These people just don't have manners"

No one argues that - given the lamentable lack of transport capacity and heavy equipment outside the military - the military should bring what's needed to rescue people.
But what's arguable is to bring 10.000 boots on the ground instead of the basic needs for survival.
When you finally bring in the equipment and medical care, lots of people who could have been saved will be dead.

But I imagine you knew that before.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #144
175. There was unrest before the quake. n/t
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 06:53 PM by Igel
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #102
110. Fuck Meet the Press. They obviously have it in for Obama. What do they know about airlifts?
:sarcasm:
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #110
118. or hunger and thirst or arms and legs being amputated because of massive gangrene!
setting in because of no medicines or doctors!

:sarcasm:

Get the basic human necessities in their first damn it!
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1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
112. is it any wonder why relief is so hard to provide?
everybody has an issue...

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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #112
115. Isn't it interesting that the military is the only institution in the world permitted the resources
for disaster relief?
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1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #115
121. because they can deploy *snap* just like that. and they know what they are doing...
disrespect them all you will, buddy.

but those fuckers you hate are the exact same fuckers that save lives in a situation like this.

heh. loser...

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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #121
125. the aircraft is circling and having to turn back or divert with medical supplies and doctors and
and water..they are nit being allowed to land , because our military is controlling the airport ..and landing 200 flights a day ..with military ..for security..........

while we watch daily hospitals that have no medicine..or antibiotics or doctors for gods sake!
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1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #125
128. its a fuckedup situation. wouldn't it be all pretty, in your delusional world...
when everything just works all pretty and right?

wouldn't it?


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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #128
142. my delusional world has lived through a bad earthquake..in fact the worst
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 08:00 AM by flyarm
$$ disaster in US history until Katrina..and i know damn well what it is like to be hungry and thirsty and have nothing available for a few days..this is going on a week..and i know that translates to dead bodies from wounds , that do not need to die..if they could get medical help and the basic human needs met.

What we went through in the Northridge can't even come close to the magnatude of the disaster the people of Haiti are going through.

But through the disasters this country has been through ..are there truely people left in this nation that don't know the importance of Water and food ..and medical care being the most important basic needs nessessary for life and death in a disaster of this magnitude?

all the bullshit in the world isn't going to change that.

I live near McDill AFB now, and a medical team that has been on standby since Last Tuesday is just getting deployed today! They have just been sitting here..you know..that is Centcom! They are our finest "mobile team"

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/press/release.cfm?...

Doctors Without Borders Cargo Plane With Full Hospital and Staff Blocked From Landing in Port-au-Prince
Demands Deployment of Lifesaving Medical Equipment Given Priority


Port-au-Prince/Paris /New York, 17 January 2009Doctors Without Borders/Mdecins Sans Frontires (MSF) urges that its cargo planes carrying essential medical and surgical material be allowed to land in Port-au-Prince in order to treat thousands of wounded waiting for vital surgical operations. Priority must be given immediately to planes carrying lifesaving equipment and medical personnel.

Despite guarantees, given by the United Nations and the US Defense Department, an MSF cargo plane carrying an inflatable surgical hospital was blocked from landing in Port-au-Prince on Saturday, and was re-routed to Samana, in Dominican Republic. All material from the cargo is now being sent by truck from Samana, but this has added a 24-hour delay for the arrival of the hospital.

A second MSF plane is currently on its way and scheduled to land today in Port- au-Prince at around 10 am local time with additional lifesaving medical material and the rest of the equipment for the hospital. If this plane is also rerouted then the installation of the hospital will be further delayed, in a situation where thousands of wounded are still in need of life saving treatment.




spare me the bullshit..this plane should have had the highest priority to get into Haiti..all the excuses are just nothing but a crock of shit!
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #142
162. The problem is that THEY ARE bringing things in
they are prioritizing, and using DR as a secondary access point

And the quake you went through PALES in comparison to this and THERE WAS infrastructure.

I have been through a few on the disaster manager end, and these complaints ALWAYS happen when thing are going well by day four. It is egos, they are predictable. They show up by day two when thing are going badly.

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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #112
119. there should be one issue and one issue only..basic human needs! First!! eom
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1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #119
123. and that is the issue that is being addressed. saving lives...
do you have a problem with that?

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Duende azul Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #123
145. Huh? How is that addressed by not delivering first what's needed most?
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
155. Given the history of Haiti, which do you think would be given priority?
1.) The suffering masses of Haiti

2.) The property of the Haitian upper classes

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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
165. Many of these flights should be diverted.
Heavy equipment is what is needed to get the aid from the airport to the people because roads are blocked and the only way to clear them is with heavy equipment NOT more aid piled up at the airport.

Heavy equipment is also needed to knock out another runway or two to increase capacity.

The U.S. military is really the only organization with the heavy equipment and airlift capability to move that equipment so it should be getting first priority and should be taking refugees out of Haiti back to the U.S. in every return flight.

Once roads can be cleared and aid can make it from the airport to downtown Port au Prince then the priorities can be shifted back to civilian aid flights.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #165
168. CNN on Friday and NPR just now reports that the roads from the airport to the city are clear...
and unobstructed.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
166. "But most flights are for the US military.
Their priorities are to secure the country. Ours are to feed. We have got to get those priorities in sync."

People starving and dying of thirst have to be the priority!!! K&R of course
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #166
176. What do you think the military's transporting?
100 cargo planes full of tasers and handcuffs per day?
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #176
183. Troops...
did you watch Democracy Now today?
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