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This is the one difference between splinterists and loyalists.

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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:17 PM
Original message
This is the one difference between splinterists and loyalists.
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 02:18 PM by LoZoccolo
The splinterists are concerned about the party becoming more right-wing.

The loyalists are concerned about the government becoming more right-wing.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. Loyalists are irrelevant and don't understand how politics works.
If pols know you are going to vote for them, then they don't care about you. This has always been true.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. That is true.
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Why would a politician stick their neck out to support a position...
... if splinterists can't be counted on to vote because they didn't get exactly what they wanted? It cuts both ways.

If politicians can't count on your vote they don't give a shit about your position.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. If a politician can "count" on your vote (no matter what) you cease to exist.
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 03:22 PM by anonymous171
Politicians want your vote and will do anything to get it. If they can count on your vote, they stop doing things for you and try to secure the votes of other groups, even at your expense (because you are going to vote for them no matter what they do, because you are a loyalist.)
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. If you don't vote you don't exist.
Refusing to vote only tells politicians that you and others like you are a group that should not be taken seriously. It's easier for them to court groups that consistently vote than those that take their ball and go home. That's why our government is so rightward leaning. RWers vote consistently.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. What is your OP concerned with?
:)
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. I have a splinterist in my finger but can't afford to see a Doctor
SINGLE PAYER NOW
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I'm glad you didn't sit on a wooden park bench, leftstreet.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Very good.
:hi:
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The Midway Rebel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. In that case, what are those concerned about
both the party and the government becoming more right wing?
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
6. Have you now replaced "purist" with "splinterist"?
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 02:30 PM by rug
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Apparently that's the new meme
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. I've been using that word for almost five years.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Yes.
It's a shit statement.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. there's 2 types of democrats
those who divide democrats into two types, and...
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
11. What keeps government from becoming more right wing is preventing those who are in
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 02:57 PM by Solly Mack
government (elected from political parties) from becoming more right wing to begin with

See, the way government works is those elected to office (from the party/parties) set policy, make laws, etc.. So preventing the government from becoming more right-wing starts with preventing a turn to the right at the party level. It also includes not electing right-wingers to office. But if a party becomes more right-wing and is elected to office then their policies and laws will reflect that turn to the right - causing the government to be more right-wing....so preventing that turn at the party level helps to prevent it at the governing (government) level.


So, really, your statement doesn't make any sense......since to prevent a turn to the right at the government level, you have to prevent a turn to the right at the party level.(as well as not electing right-wingers)






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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Your statement does not make any sense.
Say we have a situation like this.

left <------------------------------------------->
right
        F   A   E   C                  B     D G

A is the Democratic presidential candidate from year N.
B is the incumbent Republican president.
C is the Democratic presidential candidate for year N+4.
D is the Republican presidential candidate for year N+4.
E is one Democratic candidate for the primary in year N+8.
F is another Democratic candidate for the primary in year
N+8.
G is the Republican presidential candidate for year N+8.

At year N+4, a splinterist, by your definition (not allowing
the party to go right), would let D take office because C is
to the right of A.

At year N+8, the splinterist would be constrained by
principle from voting for E in the primary, or in the general
if nominated (effectively increasing the chances of the
government being turned over to G); the loyalist could
support either.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. lolololol
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 03:17 PM by Solly Mack
"splinterists" isn't my word and I never once offered up a definition for your term.

But I do thank you for a more honest explanation of what you really wanted to say in your OP.

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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. I may have been confused, but you offered this strategy in counterpoint to my post.
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 03:20 PM by LoZoccolo
"to prevent a turn to the right at the government level, you have to prevent a turn to the right at the party level"

I demonstrate that this is not the case.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. No, you offered up justifications for becoming more right-wing to get elected
Which is hilarious considering your consider yourself a "loyalists" - and by your definition means you are concerned with the government becoming more right-wing. Absolutely no one concerned with government turning more right-wing would ever support a turn to the right by any candidate (party level).

LMAO



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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I'll leave my argument there for anyone who wants it. n/t
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. It makes a lot of sense to those of us who are coming from the perspective of WE, The People.
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 03:15 PM by bobbolink
For corporatists, it probably is very confusing.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I'm sure it makes a lot of sense to people who don't understand game theory or strategy. n/t
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Oh, good... the superiority card.
That does ever so much for the unity you say you want in the party, doesn't it?
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. I fail to see what's difficult to understand in my diagram.
Feel free to ask questions or offer criticism.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. There is no point in discussing much of anything with someone with a superiority
complex.

One thing I've learned being homeless... those who consider themselves above others and constantly remind them of that, are able to hear NOTHING.

All they have is what the RW has... jeers, sneers and jabs.

Good luck to you.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Try me.
If I act as you predict, then you can have a superiority complex all your own.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Many of us have tried and learned our lesson.
Sometimes you really can't fool people twice.

You're quite transparent.

There are those of us who care more about the people and the country than the corporations, and the corporatists will never understand that.

Oil and water.

So, go peddle your argument with someone who gives a damn.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. You mean the loyalists? nt
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. Feel free to kick dents in my strategy all you want. n/t
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. It's not a strategy. It's an attempt to make what is actually very simple seem very complex
If you want liberal government, you vote for liberal candidates. If you want a liberal party, you vote for liberal candidates. It's that fucking simple. Any time people pull out faux mathematical expressions they are just trying to muddle the facts.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Let me know if you change your mind. n/t
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. No, it makes no sense at all
But then I haven't seen any posts from you that make any sense. The idea that you can prevent the government from moving to the right while electing right wingers is asinine. You cannot allow the party to move to the right, elect those right leaning politicians and then claim that you want the government to move to move to the left. Right wing politicians of ANY party move the government to the right. And if you need something as simple as that explained to you then you have no business trying to pretend you understand game theory or strategy.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Is there any particular part of the scenario I describe that's logically impossiblee?
I could see if I said that A is to the left of B and B is to the left of A, where that could be a mess, but I don't think I did that. Did I miss some point where I did?
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
26. By any label, your conduct is not conducive to party unity on any issue.
We're a big tent, and we don't agree on every issue.

For at least the past forty years, the party has had a liberal wing that tries to keep it honest. That's the wing that DU represents. Those people are loyal to the ideals of the party. They are loyal to the party, and are more loyal to the party than many who are elected by the party.

To you, a splinterist is anyone in the party who disagrees with you, and a loyalist is anyone who agrees with you. This is something everyone but you can see.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. The difference is that I may argue...
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 03:38 PM by LoZoccolo
...but I've only failed to vote Democratic twice in the last ten years, and once was for a Green Party candidate. As I said in another post, I have never threatened to not vote Democratic here. I have never sought to irritate people for the primary choice, but have respected it. That cannot be said of the people I am arguing against here. I may express an opinion, but I have never advocated damaging the party or the party's choice to get my way; that is divisive.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
35. My party is filled with idiots, God bless us
such concern about right wingers lol
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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
38. Locking
Divisive, inflammatory OP.

Thanks,
petersond
DU Moderator
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