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It's now a week later in Haiti. And millions still have no water of food

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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:44 AM
Original message
It's now a week later in Haiti. And millions still have no water of food
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 10:48 AM by Cyrano
I'm sure there's an explanation for this, but that explanation doesn't help if you are sitting on the ground dying from lack of water.

Many countries have sent people and supplies. But isn't it up to us, the "Greatest Country In The World," to do everything possible to fix this?

We "beat" Iraq in less time than it takes to deliver water and food to people who are dying.

Where's the urgency? Where's the sense of this being a life and death EMERGENCY. Where's the sense of a disaster that requires warp speed help?

In the not-too-distant future, we will view this as a fuck up on the same scale as letting New Orleans drown after Katrina. This was not the intention of our president, our government, or others who were trying to help. Nonetheless, the outcome has been worse.

Can anyone doubt that human beings must find a way to solve this ongoing, unacceptable response to human need, misery and death wherever and whenever it occurs? We've got the technology. Could there possibly be a lack of will somewhere along the line?
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. Stupid post, yet just another of many similar posts we must endure daily.
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NutmegYankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. +1
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. +1
Saved me the keystrokes.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. I'm beginning to truly despise the idiots penning this moronic shit
lazy little fuckwads sitting cozily at their keyboards and doing jackshit criticizing the people doing everything they can.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #14
31. it took me FOUR days to get to the point of despising them. but here i sit
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 11:16 AM by seabeyond
with you

the arrogance that somehow these people are more concerned about the suffering of those in haiti even more so than those that are doing the work, smelling the smells, experiencing the pain, seeing first hand on suffering.... just boggles the mind
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Jazzgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #31
89. I am adding to the +1 crowd.
n/t
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #31
122. +1
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
78. +1
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. +1
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:57 AM
Original message
+1
Endless stupidity.
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grytpype Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
30. +1000
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grytpype Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. It's because Obama is a sellout.
And he doesn't really care.

If he cared, like you, everything would be great.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
38. +1. nt
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Jane Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
45. Especially since it's NOT
a week later!
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #45
81. It was Tuesday
today is Sunday. Good point. Some people can't read a calendar (among their other failings :rofl:)
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
80. +1
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shawcomm Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
98. Yeah, really...
Wish we could unrec more than once.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
105. +1 ...rank idiocy
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Crabby Appleton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #105
120. +1
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
2. turn on your teevee, i think the world is doing all it can.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. how much water have you delivered? hmmm nt
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Uben Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
5. Its hard enough to accomplish that in the best of times
..but when there is no infrstructure, it compounds the difficulty. Remember, the roads aren't passable, the port is unusable, and the airport had to be repaired. These things take some time. Were it not for the U.S., where do you think they would be?
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Reply to #1 - 5
Try sitting around for five days without water. I'd like to see what you post after that.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. why aren't you there, honey ? seeing as you know just how to do things.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
79. Maybe we can just miracle water and food to everyone who needs...
short of that, the logistics of this rescue are moving as quickly as they possibly can.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
99. Try flying down to Haiti and take control
of the situation. Report back when the mission is accomplished!
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
104. I'm fairly certain those actually working their asses off in Haiti
are even more aware of that fact than you are. Have you slept since Tuesday? Those whose boots are actually on the ground haven't, so get off your damn high horse & either put up (by leaving for Haiti post haste) or shut up.

dg
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monmouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. How much longer does DU have to put up with crap posts like this????..n/t
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liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
7. Jesus Fuck.
No further comment. :eyes:
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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
8. It is the worst earthquake the UN ever experienced
a disaster of epic, historical proportion

why dont you get off your ass and go fix it?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
53. Not only that but their leadership was killed in the quake.
The two top people died. Terrible. :(
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
9. a little fyi re: aid workers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

wanting to do the right thing,and doing it are 2 different things.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. Sorry to hear this kind of reply from you, Cali
What was really needed in Haiti was one general who knew how to kick ass, and get things moving.

Sorry to disagree with everyone on this thread, but we should be able to do far better than we did.

But I'll tell you what. Let's see what is being said about our rescue effort a week from now. My guess is that there were major fuckups that will be revealed. And the finger pointing will start.

But back to my original point. Try sitting on the ground for just three days without water. Finger pointing doesn't do much good when you're dead.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
64. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
65. Ummm...Bush planned for YEARS to invade Iraq. There was no warning in Haiti
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 12:16 PM by jpak
Obama sent a fucking carrier group and a MAU AND the 82nd Airborne to Haiti in days on no notice.

Just how long do you think it takes to send those ships from their homeports to Haiti?

Jesus H. Fucking Christ - the whining on DU is unbearable.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
71. You mean the GENERAL who lied through his ass the other day on the TV?
Two critical points of what he said...

Patients were never abandoned...


No sir, they were, and you were IN CHARGE.

Oh and I would send people without security....

Well Sir, given you went in AFTER FOUR DAYS, with the 82 and 101s... now I don't know about you, but those two units strike me as truly a hell of a security team.

Oh and there is more of what Mr. liar Honore, with short term memory due to politics, said that those with a memory would be able to catch.
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Retrograde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #18
95. Yes, a general who had the foresight to know when the quake was coming
and to have stockpiled food, water, medical supplies and security forces in the right places ahead of time.

Haiti's infrastructure - what there was of it - is gone. Both (yes, both) of its firehouses were destroyed: that should give some idea of how little prepared they were for calamities. They are depending on outside help, and it takes a finite amount of time to get there - once they've cleared places to land planes (and do something with them once they've landed) and removed all the wreckage from the port so they can actually get the ships to do something useful. This isn't like Iraq (and I'm assuming you're referring to the first invasion - we seem to be mired down there right now) where an invasion could be planned in advance, or even Katrina, where we could see the storms approaching.

You're right: Haiti needs a strong person in charge who can get things moving. But they don't have one, and they didn't have one before the quake, when they should have been doing emergency preparedness planning. Hindsight's great, but there are real thorny logistics problems than need to be solved in real time, and that's rarely as easy as it sounds.
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happy_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
100. I hear ya Cyrano
and I think DUers responses would be quite different if a Republican were in charge.

During Katrina DU had the most useful information about what was(and mostly wasn't) being done to help.
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
110. Another post linked to a Greg Palast piece which criticizes the US efforts.
That poster has also been lambasted unfairly. I for one completely agree with your remarks.
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #12
28. actually, I think it's a realistic comparison
after all, we had six months to prepare for the Invasion of Iraq, six months of flying in supplies and troops, building infrastructure and getting everything into place. six months. we've had 120 hours to respond to Haiti. to an event no one saw coming, in a place no one saw coming.
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
13. If Obama were more like LBJ this wouldn't happen.
(I'm assuming that that's the answer. On DU it usually is. That, or "Dennis Kucinich".
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Fire1sKid Donating Member (223 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
88. LMAO!!!
:spray: :rofl: :applause:
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
17. Not quite 5 days
The frustration that many of us have felt with the progress on the ground in Haiti, is not directed at the boots on the ground. It is directed at the decision makers and the politics. It is widely known that the politicians for some reason always screw up everything they touch.

We have a military that we spend trillions on. It is advertised as the mightiest and the ablest ever. So when we see that other countries have landed their forces and gone to work on the streets, when we see search and rescue teams from other countries on the streets, and then we see none of our military forces on the streets, delivering aid, clearing rubble or making security, it rightly pisses us off.

Our frustration is born of recent history. And we are ashamed of that history. We don't want to be ashamed again, so we rightly call for more, faster and better action from our politicians and military brass.

Common sense tells us that within 24 hours air drops were possible.

People are starving and thirsty and there was no relief in sight. Finally, we see helicopters making air drops, water being delivered.

Our choppers must look like angels from above to those on the ground who are afraid of being under a roof.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #17
40. Geez, more US-centric crap...
There are MANY countries involved in this, not JUST the U.S. so if you are going to say this is "fucked up" (you are very wrong, imo)then put the blame on ALL the countries involved. Your deliberate lack of comprehension on the logistics of providing aid under the current conditions of the near total destruction of major areas of Haiti is pathetic, to say the least.

OH, and those helicopters that are providing aid, BIG revelation here, are NOT just US helicopters they are from other countries as well. Oh, and those doctors helping out are NOT just US doctors, I could continue to list who are NOT Americans and are helping out but that would be like talking to a brick wall it seems.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. BeFree talked about the efforts of other nations. Did you misplace
your post?
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. If YOU have read BeFree's posts it is all about US embarassment...
US leadership, US failures but I guess you missed those, too bad. You might want to take some time to do some homework, it would be helpful to the debate.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. You didn't address my point. You accused BeFree of
"US-centric crap" where BeFree's post was nothing of the sort.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. It certainly was US centric but I understand why you cannot see that...
it is not a rare occurance.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. Well, no, it wasn't:
So when we see that other countries have landed their forces and gone to work on the streets, when we see search and rescue teams from other countries on the streets, and then we see none of our military forces on the streets, delivering aid, clearing rubble or making security, it rightly pisses us off.

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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #61
68. You left out the rest...

"Our frustration is born of recent history. And we are ashamed of that history. We don't want to be ashamed again, so we rightly call for more, faster and better action from our politicians and military brass.

Common sense tells us that within 24 hours air drops were possible.

People are starving and thirsty and there was no relief in sight. Finally, we see helicopters making air drops, water being delivered.

Our choppers must look like angels from above to those on the ground who are afraid of being under a roof."


This is all about the US as if the US is the ONLY country that can deliver what has yet to reach the Haitians. "Our choppers...." hmmm, and you don't see why I made the point there are OTHER countries with "choppers" as well.

I have read BeFree's other posts and, much as you want to try and pretend they have NO relevancy to his/her's post in this thread, it is very much relevant to my US-centric post.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #68
84. No, I didn't leave out anything.
You claimed BeFree didn't take other countries into account, a claim which is observably false. And now you claim that this is "all about the US" when BeFree was talking very carefully about how Americans feel or might feel about our own nation's response. Good grief.

If you're carrying over some grudge from other threads, I'm sorry but that's a hobby you'll have to tend on your own. Have a nice day.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #84
93. LOL, and you have a nice day as well! n/t
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #84
113. "ou claimed BeFree didn't take other countries into account" Where?
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #52
112. delete, you got into it elsewhere with someone else over same thing
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 11:52 PM by uppityperson
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #40
109. According to news reports the French have lodged a formal complaint
(I can't think of the exact phrase)with the US, accusing the US of using the Haitian airport as an "annex to Washington". American forces controlling the airport are giving priority to evacuating US citizens and then to US missions rather than giving other countries permission to land. Alot of countries are pissed off it seems with the US handling of the situation.
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
41. Thank you, BeFree, for the bit of perspective you have added to this thread
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #41
59. Hey
All of us have been frustrated. After all this is the biggest human crisis in our lives and each of us cares very much. We just see things differently and let our emotions direct some of our words.

I hope we can, now that emergency supplies are being delivered, turn our focus toward making sure that our government reforms its attitude toward Haiti, and in the rebuilding help Haiti to become a much better place for everyone.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. Agreed. n/t
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Thanks
And thanks for standing up for me. :blush:

Not going to argue with any of that stuff anymore.
Time for some progress. Time to make lemonade from this lemon.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #67
77. Life is too short.
:hi:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #17
49. Once again, were the marines off shore? Then you'd have a reaosn to gripe
and there are teams from EVERYWHERE. It is still easier to move the Fairfax County Search and Reescue... they are there by the way, than to move the 22nd MEU.

The troops you are seeing there are UN Blue Helmets... it helps to be already THERE.

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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #49
63. Still want to fight, eh?
No reason too. Emergency supplies are being delivered.
Food and water drops are taking place.

The military has come thru.

My focus is on the long term now. And Peace.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #63
69. I am not fighting, just correcting you
perhaps for the INCIDENT where you live, you will have a clue and perhaps listen and be ready to be ON YOUR OWN for at least 72 hours. 72 hours is the recommended time by the way.

We do not have pixie dust to move anything faster than the laws of physics and our current assets permit.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. Peace.
None of us is perfect. None of us is always right.

Let it be.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
85. Maybe it is a joint effort and those other countries going in first is
part of the plan? Do we have to show off? And all of us are helping people here!

Geez, do you say blame the doctors if they give you pill that don't solve everything immediately? Blame teachers if a kid has a struggle understanding something that is not resolved immediately?

If someone stops and helps you change your tire out of sheer goodness of heart, do you complain they don't do it fast enough or encounter obstacles?

:banghead:

I thought I had seen all unreasonableness DU was capable of on the HCR bill! Now along comes this and we can't even get credit for generosity that will never be repaid!
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #85
90. The US
From here on, I hope, the US be seen as Angels in Haiti.

Basically, the frustration of the first few days is passed.
And our government, lead by Obama, will regain its status as the leader of the free world.
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
106. Maybe you're not seeing our troops on the streets because
they're back at the airport & offshore, repairing it & keeping it running so that the other countries' groups can get out to help.

dg
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
19. if only those damn relief workers werent lying around getting a suntan.... nt
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. No one is blaming the workers. It's the lack of organization that's the problem
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. bet relief workers wouldnt see these less than 5 days as wasted time.
total chaos like never seen before and you expect, demand, insist on instant orginization.

reality and you do not meet.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
86. This cannot be easy to organize
And is beyond the scope of anyone who has the time to post on DU.
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Electric Monk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
20. In my universe, the quake happened on Tuesday, Jan 12.
Maybe our definition of week is different?
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Okay. Try going five days without water. And try reading some of
my previous replies.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. are you suggesting there is a single person on ground so callous that they have less concern
than you, providing water.
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Jesus fucking Christ. How many times do I have to tell you I'm not
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 11:07 AM by Cyrano
blaming the people on the ground.

Since you've chosen to use a Jedi avatar, perhaps you can use the Force to fix it yourself.

Either way, I'm through defending myself to you.

On edit: And I'm through defending my opinion to the rest of the people on this thread. If you all think we've done the best we can, so be it.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. yes... i think they have done their best and will continue to do their best. the u.s., obama
does not rule the world. we are a part of a world effort. this is not all about the u.s. and not all about obama. the world is in this. and yes.... i think everyone is doing their best.

is it as good as everyone would like, no.... everyone would like every one found instantly and cared for instantly and sheltered instantly. but not gonna happen.

and i am certainly not going to tell them what they have done wrong when i am clueless.

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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #29
39. In other words,
you've been taken to task - out-argued and lost - so you're running off like a whipped puppy.

See ya.
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #39
54. I'll tell you what. Let's revisit this issue a week from now after
emotions have died down and reality starts to filter in.

My guess is that there will be a total reevaluation of command and control operations.

As far as my "running off like a whipped puppy," no mature individual capable of a cogent argument would ever use a phrase like that. So I'll tell you what. I'll respond to any further posts of yours when you are either old enough, or thoughtful enough to act like a rational adult.

Over and out.
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Electric Monk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. Yes, less emotion and more reality would be a good thing. Try it.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. Your OP was nonsense. You've been taken to the woodshed.
Deal with it.
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Electric Monk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #58
96. You'll love this
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #54
82. After action reviews are not done until WELL AFTER the end
of actual operations... oh in this case that includes the RECOVERY phase, which will last at least nine months. So yes, they will revisit this... it is standard procedure. It will include INTERNATIONAL representatives... and it is ALWAYS done for lessons learned.

If anything I am betting one of those lessons learned, which is obscure to you... are common refueling nozzles for military craft.

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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #54
114. OK, a week from now things will be different and they will have had a week more
to get more supplies in, people cared for and out, etc. Of course there will be re-evaluation in a week. Good grief.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
87. So then why did you feel the need to expand the real number of days?
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
24. Unfortunately, not all problems are easily or quickly solved.
The logistics and security concerns are very real, and damn near impossible to overcome in the time frame needed to save lives.

It's just that simple. It's a nightmare to witness, but some things are just plain fucked up, and there's not a damn thing anyone can do to fix them.

This planet is a little sketchy to inhabit. It will throw you for a loop every once in a while. The power of natural forces on earth are so awesome that man is sometimes overwhelmed and helpless to defend itself from them.

Nobody is to blame, with the possible exception of The Almighty Dog. :shrug:
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
26. Do you want us to occupy an independent country in the name of helping people?
guess who will get blamed for anything that goes wrong in an occupation - even if for the good of a country
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:03 AM
Original message
Do you have food and water? Why haven't you sent it to Haiti yet?
The infrastructure in Haiti, or lack of infrastructure, is the major impediment to recovery right now.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
27. Five days does not equal one week
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global1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
34. I Think They Should Put You In Charge - Since You Have It All Figured Out......
and would make this relief effort run flawlessly.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
35. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
36. As you say, 'Millions are without food and water' . This is a huge disaster.
What we need to adjust to is the fact that it takes time to organize and deliver relief. In this country we are instructed to have a week of food and water on hand in case of an emergency. In the poorer sections of our country this is not always possible. The point of individuals and communities being prepared is because in large disasters it will take time to deliver services. This is not a movie, this is real life...and death.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
37. Of course there's a bloody explanation
Haiti's infrastructure was very poor before the quake and is now almost entirely destroyed. The airport in Port-au-Prince has ONE functioning airway and no refuelling capacity, and has been prioritised for medical aid flights. The roads from the Dominican Republic are very poor and there are collapsed bridges and 200 miles to cover. The port is closed to shipping. It's a simple question of logistics; how do they get it there? (Simple mathematics for you, by the way, to illustrate the scope of the problem: the average adult human requires approximately two litres of water a day. Let us estimate there are three million people in the affected areas. So we're talking about a water requirement of six million litres. Per day. For drinking alone, not counting other uses like washing and cooking. The USS Carl Vinson has a desalination capacity of 85000 litres per day, which is nowhere near enough; the logistical nightmare of getting anything into Haiti makes shipping that much water in bottled form very difficult. Really, I'd like to know what you'd propose to do. It's easy enough to make criticisms when you're ignorant of the scale of the problems involved.
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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #37
44. But how can I show that I care more than others if I can't
whine about why the US hasn't fixed everything yet? :sarcasm:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #37
48. I heard yesterday that they're distributing tablets to (sterilize?)
water because it's easier than hauling water. I'm sorry, I can't think of the right term but the tablet makes water safe to drink.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. Iodine-based tablets or crystals.
I've used them camping. Lots of times there's a second tablet you add after the iodine has worked; the second product takes the iodine taste out, as it's fairly unpalatable.

Works like a charm and cheap as hell.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. And a lot lighter than water. n/t
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #48
83. Water Purification Tablets
and I highly recommend you have a bottle of those in your disaster kit.

They can be bought at a store that sells camping supplies, are cheap and have a shelf life of five years.

After the Mexican Quake in 85 I fed exed a case of those to my parents to distribute to family, friends and others.

I still remember the cost too... 120 dollars... it was a LOT of money... did not care.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
42. One airport, lack of trucks, noh functining sea port...
this is what I wnat to do

:banghead:

It up tempoed yesterday, it will up tempo more today... as more lift capacity comes in

And unacceptable, only to those who have NO CLUE of the challenges on the ground...

I'll put it to you this way... the ahem bickering and finger pointing has started, so of course that means things are actually getting that much better...

But here is this for you. Think of trying to reach the end of one city from another with roads blocked and little trucks or drivers.

You try.

And it takes the Marines. who ARE coming, physical time to get from the US... take a map and look at it.

And no, it is not up to the greatest nation in the world... bullshit.

By the way... you know HOW LONG as in actual MONTHS, close to a year, it took to get ready to attack Iraq? You saw the end of a LONG LOGISTICS chain...

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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
47. Wow! How long did I sleep? nt
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
50. What a stupid self serving post. UGH.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
51. FAIL OBAMA!!1 Everyone - especially progressives - knew there would be a devastating earthquake
this week in Haiti - I saw it at Firedoglake!!111

BOOOoooooo Obama!!1111

FAIL!!11

FAIL!1

FAIL!11

:sarcasm:

:puke:

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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #51
74. I have not blamed Obama for anything
But anyone who doesn't think there's a command and control problem that needs to be fixed is kidding themselves.

It doesn't take much to grasp that what's going on in Haiti exists because no one is in charge.

Someone, or some entity, needs to step forward. Someone or some entity needs say "I'M IN CHARGE."

The U.S. is the only such entity with the power and resources to do so. But our reputation in the world has been so crushed, that there is no way we can do so without causing wide wide alienation and bringing down worldwide condemnation.

Thank your George W. Bush for having placed us in this situation.

However, when people are literally sitting on the ground, dying from lack of water and medical help, it's time to act, regardless of world opinion.

And how can there be any doubt that we have each and every resource to provide that help. We have the bulldozers to push the rubble (and, yes, bodies) out of the way. We have the military power to put a halt to rioting. And, most importantly, we have the supplies, equipment and people to deliver whatever is needed to put an end to the incredible nightmare of death that is still occurring at this very moment in Haiti.

I find the criticisms on this thread either uninformed, or/or intentionally mean spirited. (Not what you'd expect on DU.)

But regardless of anything else, this has not been our finest moment. As much as we are doing, we must do better. And we've got to do it right this very instant. Would you want any less if you were sitting in dirt, waiting?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. Your expectations for Obama's response is "either uninformed, or/or intentionally mean spirited."
yup!
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #74
92. You have no fucking clue what's happening on the ground...
...the resources available, or the logistics of and yet you feel qualified to criticize, and then whine at others when they point out that you're uninformed.

Out of curiosity, do you know the type, number, and lifting capacity of the helicopters carried aboard the USS Carl Vinson? Do you know how many trips per day they're capable of making, gross weight delivered on each trip, and the gross weight of the food and water required to sustain 3 million homeless Haitians? The availability of MREs and/or standardized humanitarian rations, relative to demand?

Do you know the runway requirements of C-130 and C-17 transport aircraft, or the flight range of Chinook heavy-lift helicopters? Do you know how much aviation fuel is available in the forward area, how quickly it can be replenished, and what limitations that puts on flight operations?

Do you know how many troops have been deployed on the ground, and the rate at which additional troops will arrive? Or what rules of engagement said troops are going to operate under for crowd control? The difficulty of coordination efforts between hundreds of different aid agencies and SAR teams from dozens of different countries?

Or are you simply one of those people who gets a "gut feeling" and then ignores any contrary information in order to justify your holier-than-thou attitude?

Some of us on the other hand actually have an understanding of logistical math.
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #74
126. Are you out of your mind?
The Bush Administration spent months planning the invasion of Iraq -- the Haitian earthquake happened with no advace warning of any kind.

Secondly, if the object is to blow up everything in sight and ask questions later, it's obviously a little easier to invade a country than to get aid to a city stricken with a natural disaster.

There are a million or more people effected by this. Let's assume that they need 64 ounces of potable water each day. Now in the one week since the earthquake, that would mean a need for 3.5 million gallons of drinking water. That would be something on the order of a Supertanker loaded with drinking water -- you just don't get that out of the garden hose.

And then there's food. We're talking about thousands of tons of food, which isn't laying around somewhere waiting to be shipped - and even if it were, it's not laying around within 500 miles of Haiti and even if it were, there aren't enough C-17's available to get it there. At least not within the timeframe you're talking about.

Criminy.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
60. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lebkuchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
72. Great post
Obama said there would be frustrations. Knowing that Doctors w/o Borders field hospital wasn't on the priority list to land, I'm wondering if Obama isn't trying to fulfill his own prophecy
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JBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. This deserves serious discussion. You should make an OP out of this.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #72
115. I htought MSF had a field hospital there already, or was this another one?
I read they were already in Haiti, had a field facility open when the quake hit. Is this another set of hospital/etc?

Did Pres Obama not allow them to land? How is he responsible for that?
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lebkuchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #115
125. The US is in charge of the airport
Our military. Obama is in charge of the military.

I just heard on the news that the US doesn't even have its own field hospital up. We're getting bad press from the medical tents screaming for assistance. The Israelis have their poop in one pile, though.
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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
75. The many posts saying "see how much better than Katrina the response is?" led to raised expectations
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #75
91. Except the response is 100x better than Katrina.
It's just that the scale of the disaster in Haiti is so incredibly large that there is no such thing as fast enough or responsive enough, especially with the lack of usable infrastructure in Haiti.

The military, the NGOs, the government here and other governments around the world are doing the best they can, but they just can't save everyone. The disaster's too big.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. Not to mention, this is a fucking FOREIGN COUNTRY.
It's not like we have local law enforcement, total knowledge of the country and infrastructure, communication methods, nearby airbases, highways, easy access for supplies, etcetera the way we did with Katrina. This is more like threading a needle while holding it at arms length.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
97. Not only is this post stupid, but the facts aren't even correct.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
101. Shameful. Disgusting. Not only should you be banned from DU for this post
but your ISP should disconnect your Internet service.
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perro azul Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
102. What exactly should "we" be doing that is not being done, in your expert opinion?
What technology that you say we "have" would "fix" the problem?
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
103. Well, one reason we "beat" Iraq faster is
we went in with guns blazing, hell-bent for leather, & blowing up everything in our path. Would it make you any happier if we started bombing Port au Prince?

Now, if you know how to do this job better than those already on the ground, please leave for Haiti immediately.

dg
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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #103
107. Entropy.
It's much easier to destroy than to build.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #103
108. Not to mention that we were putting military assets and plans in place for months
Whatever you think of the Iraq war, there is no doubt that we spent plenty o time preparing for it and had an entire invasion force wound up and ready to go on command...indeed, one of th legitimate objections to the war was that we were building up that force before we there was any kind of authority or consensus (even a sham one) to declare a state of war (well, technically an AUMF, but you get the idea).

We only see the landing and fighting part on TV. We don't see the months and months of preparation for launching such an operation - not least because it's not very interesting to look at - and so some people like the OP assume that large operational forces are just sitting around ready to go at a moment's notice, all the time.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
111. Everyone should read this:
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
116. What part of "the infrastructure is in ruins" do you not understand?
Have you seen the pictures of Haiti?

There are tons of rubble all over the place.

You can't just wave a magic wand and clear it.

Yes, there are people dying there, and yes, it breaks my heart, but geez, there are some very real obstacles that the rescuers and helpers have to deal with.

How about giving the people on the ground there credit for the incredibly difficult job they are faced with, and stop bitching at them because they can't do things as fast as you think they should?

You think they are unaware of the fact that people are in desperate straits there?

You think that it doesn't matter to them?

Posts like this piss me off!

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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
117. Good grief. No, it's not a wk later, no we didn't "beat" Iraq in less time, yes, there is a HUGE
sense of disaster and a whole hell of a lot of stuff going on.

"the outcome has been worse" than....the aftermath of Katrina because...no one cares enough to do anything quickly enough?

O.M.G.

I'm sure there's and explanation for this.

It hasn't been a week. We didn't "beat" Iraq after many yrs. It isn't up to the USA to do it all. Many many many countries and groups and people are doing as much as fast as they can.

No, there isn't a lack of will but this was a FUCKING HUGE DISASTER! The airport is barely functioning, the docks are not attached to the shore any more, the roads are impassable in much of the area, good grief.

What "technology" have we that we aren't using?
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AusDem Donating Member (219 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
118. nature fucked up
it seems like people are actually doing a decent job. Haiti has no infrastructure, no functioning government, and no resources. What has been sent by the international community is actually quite a bit.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 05:15 AM
Response to Original message
119. I know it's hard to sit here and watch this
They are actually doing an amazing job and having been involved in much smaller disasters, I know how disorganized it looks from here and it probably feels even worse there, but they really are doing the best job they can with what they were handed. If you can send money, send it, if you believe in God, pray for them, both the victims and the helpers who are both dying minute by minute. If you can't do either, breathe. And know that anyone who can feel is hurting just as you are.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
121. Unrec. Gawd this shit is getting tiresome...nt
Sid
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
123. Now that Bush is fundraising co-chair, everything will be better /nt
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 08:04 AM by Bragi
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
124. How much power brokering is going on behind the scenes by the powers that be?
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 09:11 AM by earth mom
I'm with Naomi Klein on this-disaster capitalism is in high gear in Haiti as we speak.

The Haitian people are nothing more than cogs in a machine set up to pay dividends to the rich and powerful. Nothing more.

So pay attention, because so are we.
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Electric Monk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
127. Now that it's REALLY a week later, let's look at the news
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8469058.stm

Eleven thousand American soldiers are now playing an active role in the relief effort in Haiti, according to the White House. It represents a huge and swift build-up of forces for a nation already fighting two wars.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8468367.stm?ls

US troops fan out as Haiti aid efforts gain momentum

...

He said the UN was in discussion with member states, and he hoped to have the extra troops and police to deploy soon. The UN mission in Haiti currently numbers about 9,000.
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