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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 11:26 PM
Original message
On some of the ahem discussions on Haiti
Well been thinking about it... either that or the flu is getting to me :-)

Part of the problem is communications.

You see when you say AIR DROP... those of us who have done this shit for real think of a C-130, or a few other cargo planes, large pallets, nets, and parachutes. Let's not get technical ok... but that is what comes to mind. And in these cases they are not done, unless somebody decides that your only choice is doing an EMRAT drop from high on... (Afghanistan was the last time it was done) and the packet essentially disperses and floats down on small chutes.

When you say clear an LZ for choppers, some of us immediately go back to... NETS and Vertical Hauling operations, and enough people hang on them, and they WILL bring a chopper down... why they are not done... and as is, in the best of circumstances they are VERY dangerous.

What of you think of Air Drops are technically speaking short haul, low level EMRAT drops... you know them as MREs which are still a last resort, and yes they do lead to some fights on the ground, and it is the way it is. It does not matter who is doing it.. And those are done... have been done, and will be done in any of these messes. You just need the physical capabilities to get on station. And yes they were done during Katrina... but on day five (which is part of me being critical of that response, should not have taken that long) and started yesterday and upscaled today, with Haiti. They were also done during the Tsunami, by the way.

So this is why these ahem disagreements are coming from... we are simply NOT speaking the same language. Yes we are talking English. But some of us are talking TECHNICALESE... which is a sub-branch of the language.

And yes some folks are having an issue with their own agenda but that is another story, and to a point I cannot cure the stoopid. If you truly believe they can move faster than they truly can, I can't fix it.

One lesson of this, for ALL, should be the same of ANY disaster... you should be able to fend for yourself for 72 hours. In the US, Katrina notwithstanding, that is the outside window for you to receive help most of the time. If you are in a hard to reach place or isolated area, make sure you can survive on your own for a week. That is my recommendation, even if 72 is the standard recommendation. I live in a city. My lesson is one week, and that is Katrina.

This is not being a survivalist. This is standard. This is foresight. For reasons that we try to explain every time, and we seem not to be able to get through, yes it takes that long to spin up operations. PERIOD.
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Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. good post, but ehm.....okay, let's say my family has "prepared" to survive
for at least 3-7 days on our own.

But then, as luck would have it, we're all 'fine'/outta the house, but our house (with the provisions in it) gets flattened in an earthquake, then what?

I mean, I don't want to be a contrarian t your good post, but how does one prepare/store for the unexpected/unimaginable?
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I've been thinking about
the very same thing and I've come to the conclusion that I need to have a sealed, weather and kid proof container outside, in the back yard. Yes there is still the chance that the house would fall on the supply container (my back yard is really just a small patio type yard) but it is the place most likely to escape a hit. The garage is no better than the house (actually a condo). I could put a small amount of water in the trunk of my car which I park away from the building. Other than that I can't imagine how else I could be prepared as far as supplies go.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. It is that time again
you know when you go through supplies, just happened to coincide

Me, this time will get USCG water... these small pouches have a shelf life of five years.

They are a quarter of a liter so calculate a liter a day\person, as a bare minimum.

I will probably do the back packs for the vehicles.
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. My wife and I set up a survival box
Along the back fence, about 25 yards from our house about 7 years ago. It is essentially a small storage shed available at most large hardware stores and is locked and padlocked. It has enough supplies, camping gear, clothes, extra meds, radio, solar chargers, water, water purification kits, etc. We learned that canned goods do not last as long as dehydrated and freeze-dried foods. You really get thorough when you have some years to contemplate what you store, and each year we empty it, examine the condition of everything, check the dates on everything, check that the batteries remain dry and intact in sealed bags, etc. We made an initial investment and feel that it has paid for itself several times by now, just with the comfort of knowing we could survive for a couple of weeks if we had to.

NYT had a feature on how few people are prepared at all. After Y2K we got serious as we live in earthquake/wild fire area here in the Bay Area.

It has been worth every penny and continues to be improved year to year.




Just my dos centavos


robdogbucky
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #7
37. Question:
Why do you store those things outside? Why not in your house?
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. Answer:
I was responding to Control-Z's post above herein. It was asserted that the house could collapse, hence was concerned as not having enough room in the backyard, the house might bury the survival supplies.

We surmized that, living in fire and/or earthquake country as the most likely disasters, and with living in the lassaiz-faire post-capitalist casino financial atmosphere, economic collapse and resulting disorder, we decided to put the survival box a safe distance from the house and garage complex to minimize the possibility of anything collapsing on our survival box. I do get the yips about our vehicles, as we normally keep them in the garage. I have reasoned that I could most likely dig the vehicles out from the garage roof timbers that might collapse, but that is the only thing that could collapse on them. I do consider keeping the SUV parked outside just for that contingency but so far have only done that in the summer heat. The 60-foot spruce and Monterey Pine in the backyard were also a concern, but not as much as the house collapsing under a 7.5 earthquake. The trees are green, would not burn easily, are certainly well-rooted and knowing a bit about fire science from having fought wildfires in my youth, we are not in a hot spot with lots of fuels to spread any wildfire, hence that risk is way down the list of considerations. I was living very close to the Oakland hills fire of 1991 that destroyed over 3000 homes, but that was on a heavily wooded ridgetop with lots of cypress and eucalyptus trees. We don't have that condition here.

Dealing with marauding, armed looters would be the greatest danger and the caching of firearms is the topic of many heated discussions here. I remain insecure about that possibility and even though our immediate neighbors are trustworthy and would never do anything criminal in a civil emergency, still knowing the protection we might or might not receive in the worst case scenario does keep me thinking. Also knowing human nature as I do, if the neighborhood ran out of food in a week and we were one of the few that had some left, I would not like my chances without a weapon to defend it. Pretty lousy stuff to contemplate on a Sunday morning actually.

There is some rain coming in today, reportedly a week's worth of possible Pacific storms to follow. I should get some dry firewood split in case we have to endure 5 days of the wet.


More centavos

robdogbucky
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. 3-7 WHOLE days???
Increase that by a factor of at least 20.

Even for a small disruption, you're looking at a couple of weeks.


To answer your question, one prepares for the unexpected by expecting the unexpected...and there's no such thing as "unimaginable" unless one has extremely limited cognitive capacity.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Of course, I am just going over the official recommendation
also it depends on your physical storage space.

But if you can, do so... of course.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Good
I'm not a "spend all of your money on dry goods and ammunition" survivalist...but I think it's both our responsibility and in our best interest to individually be prepared for 3-6 months of disruption...more, if reasonably feasible.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Oh we are talking of the civil war, for example, that I have suggested
is not that crazy...

Yes I do have an imagination... but that is acutally out of the scope of the official recommendations.

So would be a nuke... or two or ten.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Three airburst nukes spaced properly. The Yellowstone caldera letting go....
Hell, even a decent worldwide drought.


We're already on the edge. It wouldn't take much to tip us into chaos.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. The caldera goes off
I want to die, and fast... that is quite possibly an extinction level event.

:-)

Nukes, if I am far enough might be survivable...
:hi:

Either of these two though, are not within the scope of any planner. Don't care what are their chops... really I don't care...

There are some things I cannot prepare and stock up for.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. The "3 nukes" scenario is very survivable. The primary damage would be EMP-related, not radioactive
The EMP from 3 nukes could kill 80%-90% of unhardened modern electronics in this country.

No electronics, no power.

No power, no production or distribution.

No production or distribution, no food/medicine/utilities...thanks, in part, to the "just on time" supply system we use.

And things will get real spooky if the lights ever really go out.


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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Why I said as a planner when people say we are working a plan for this
I just laugh...

Then you are still on your own.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. The whole purpose of preparing is to be able to survive "on your own"...
...meaning "without the services that we're used to receiving from the government and/or private industry".


One doesn't have to understand the technical aspects of an EMP event, one just has to prepare to be self-sufficient for a chosen period of time.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #32
62. That is my greatest fear
A few EMP blasts would be worse than cities getting hit,imo.
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Electric Monk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. 3-6 months? Wow
Why not 3-6 years while you're at it?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. Actually, I'm good for 6-9 months...working on a year.
...and it's ridiculously easy (and inexpensive) to do if one has the inclination.

Most embarrassing scenario? Nothing ever happens and I have food, water, medical supplies and toiletries purchased a year ahead. There's really no reason not to do it.
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Electric Monk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Maybe I'm just scarred from The Day After
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085404 /

Saw it when I was a kid, wouldn't want to survive (slow victim) in the worst case scenarios imaginable.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. A lot of people would die...but I'd still try to survive.
I know a lot of people who want front row seats to a possible nuclear war...because they wouldn't want to have to try to survive the aftermath.


I understand that view, but I don't share it. I'd want to give it a shot.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
39. The truth is that we cannot prepare for an earthquake of this magnitude
5.00pm most people are just leaving work and most of the emergency supplies and documents are at home. The lucky people were driving and didn't get hit. We would have water and crackers in our car igloos but nothing else. If your entire home was destroyed, you'd be lucky to save your documents.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Of course, if the city collapses
like it did here, all that foresight goes for naught.

I know that

But the reality is that the old saying still works... be ready to be on your own for 72 hours.

Now you can prepare for this magnitude... and a 7 pointer is actually survivable for a city... no, not because of building codes... that helps... but most quakes, fortunately will not happen just under you on mostly sandy terrain. Which is what happened here.

It is not just the number in the Richter scale, but a shallow quake with a very narrow P wave will do a lot more damage than a deep quake with a wider P Wave and not under you. They also feel different by the way.

I mean I went through a few seven pointers, err all the way to seven point five in Mexico City while growing up. They stopped our hearts, they skipped a beat... but the damage was minimal. Trust me the shanty towns are not built on any construction code I know off. There was time for the wave to dissipate.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
2. Kick
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vixengrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
5. Thank you so much for providing these informative posts.
I find I've been seeking out what you have to say on the recovery and relief efforts because it is easy to suppose that the logistics are just: transport + supplies + people = help. You give a bit of insight on the obstacles and the actual work that goes into these efforts.

I sympathize with the people who want things to progress more quickly and expect that a coordinated effort to save people should show more, well, coordination. That every disaster has heart-breaking similarities, but ultimately is its own example, and that the many groups that want to help have to be to some degree self-coordinating, especially in terms of communications and working out language-barriers sometimes, are things that don't always occur to people.

Also, survivor-populations can behave in unpredictable ways, and depending upon the focal point of the disaster, there are geographic and population-centered logistical barriers. People who are shocked, hungry, thirsty, frightened, whatever, can fight over aid--this isn't a diss on those people. They want to survive and are responding naturally. It isn't fair, and it isn't great. It's human nature, though. As far as criticism of the relief effort goes, I totally understand *why* they want it to go faster--every hour is critical, especially with those trapped and needing medical attention. But it helps to not picture a "better" relief situation that works more smoothly, but to try and anticipate the many things that can break down and obstacles that can get in the way of the effort working smoothly--like closed roads, foundered bridges, limited landing spaces, poor infrastructure, and so on. That's when you really start to appreciate the work and the dedication of people who actually go and respond to these disasters.

Your post also puts me in mind of our failings up here in the Northeast. We have a great rush for the supermarkets when people talk about a snowstorm, that here in the mid-atlantic (not even the lake-effect areas) really isn't a show-stopper for more than two days. This suggests to me that people sometimes aren't ready in advance for a two-day "disaster". Me, I have candles, batteries, flashlights, and food saved for two weeks. And medical supplies. We aren't doing it for disasters though-- we're just real cheap and stock up. And I'm accident-prone.

I don't know what disaster would ever hit Philly--but let's say a major flood, since we have the Delaware and Schuykill. We have an aging infrastructure. We have had neighborhoods like Logan actually sink due to poor drainage, and nearby areas like Darby are always flooded. Even though neighborhoods like South Philly and Frankford have pumped out their basements well and truly on occasion, what if global warming actually bites us in the rear and we get a Hurricane Floyd, just a little more on our side of the Delaware? Lets say four or five inches of rain. With our population density, we'd have a real situation on our hands. Beyond the sump-pump. Where sewage actually is floating in our water, and we don't even want to touch it. Where row-home people take out their ladders and get on the roofs--

And hopefully have coolers of water and food to tide them over.

I could see disaster here. It doesn't hurt for people to imagine the possible disaster they could see wherever they live.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Philly
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 01:03 AM by nadinbrzezinski
you could conceivably see a hurricane, they are rare but they reach that far north. and a quake. the last one is not well known, but that has to do with the New Madrid fault. So preparing for the very unlikely event in your lifetime, but in geologic time, it will happen, is not crazy.

And the problem is that the Eastern Sea Board structures are not built for that. This is an emerging threat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
8. I have a sincere question...
... I asked this on another thread, but you may have missed it.

In your opinion, if a disaster the magnitude of Katrina were to happen to New York or Los Angeles, do you think the relief response would be the same (as Katrina) or different?

TYY
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Under the current group of adults in charge
it would be more efficient... and so would Katrina... if that happened NOW.

What happened during Katrina was a decision from the WH, and there was race involved as well as something else which is the true reason

During the 1990s FEMA became THE MODEL for civil defense all over the world. Yes they were that good. Government worked.

Katrina was about showing that government does not work... so there was race, but there was that as well.

Right now I am seeing competence come back and people who actually believe in government.

I had a small hand in getting teams in from abroad... and trust me, I had flashbacks to the issues at times I faced... when doing active search and rescue and all that.

Oh and yes, I suspect after somebody swallowed national pride, they would have said, YES to the help in oh 12 hours, not a week...

That stupid nationalism will get you in the ass every time... and the front line responders don't give a shit... like they don't give a shit about the color of skin or language, or religion or money status.
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Electric Monk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. "Heck of a job, Brownie"
I've wondered sometimes if he was picked for the post partly due his last name. Probably just coincidence though, right?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. With the bushes you never know
I mean the guy in charge of FEMA, today... he is a former firefighter... who might be a Republcian, but did this for oh 22 years in the field... So yes I don't care if he is a Republican. Knowing how military and fire \ rescue people think, mission comes first.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Also, getting rid of the poor (mostly,black) people in New Orleans
would leave it open for rich (whatever color) folks to do a makeover of New Orleans in a fashion which they preferred. Bush was even more beholden to the rich interests than Obama is and besides, Bush was and is a sociopath, so he didn't really give a damn anyway.

Remember, that was the same person who was more interested in getting revenge for those who destroyed buildings rather than having any empathy for those who died inside them:

I can hear you, the rest of the world can hear you and the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon.
George W. Bush
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PacerLJ35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Get rid of black people in NOLA?
Yeah, I'm sure that's why the US government told Katrina to make landfall there. NOLA is about 70% african american, and that's hundreds of thousands of people. Not to minimize the loss of life, but I don't think we even approached that number there. The projects that were destroyed in the 9th ward needed to go for a long time...they were already pretty much uninhabitable. I used to drive through that area often and it looked like a war zone even before Katrina. Don't worry, the city is still very much a majority african-american community, both in ethnic and racial makeup and politically.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #16
40. Not the hurricane
The slow response.
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PacerLJ35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
55. FWIW, the civil side of the government dropped the ball, not the military
We had aircraft down there the very next day evacuating people from NOLA. I wasn't there (I was in Qatar) but the rest of my squadron and sister squadron was there. They were put into bravo alert the day prior to landfall. I don't buy the thought that our government purposefully wanted to kill off minorities, because if that was the case then they wouldn't have sent the DoD down there the next day. It was simple administrative bungling and idiot administrators like Brown that cause mass chaos, primarily for the civilian aid workers (who had to work through FEMA...the DoD doesn't have to work through FEMA).
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
49. First of all Katrina wasn't what drowned the 9th ward
It was the sub-standard levy that broke because the Army Corp of Engineers built it in a way they knew was sub-standard. That's pre-meditated and willful incompetence knowing full well that people's lives were threatened because there were plenty of warnings that the levy would break.

Also all poor neighborhoods anywhere in the world need to go, and unfortunately they do when a catastrophe happens. And no one cares because they're poor people which is why Bush didn't care about the 9th ward in New Orleans. Or they brush it off the way you have as something that needed to happen anyway.

Your lack of sympathy is duly noted.

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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Just wondering when
the lessons are ever going to penetrate.

Right now I'm reading about Hurricane Camille (August of 1969).

Seems like the same problems that existed then just carried over...and will the same problems that existed before/during Katrina be allowed to continue. Especially since time has passed and life goes on, and it doesn't really seem to be a priority anymore...

:(






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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. I hope you're right...
Thank you for answering so quickly, considering your 'flu' status.

I really hope you are correct about an improved response time over Katrina. Hard to believe it could get much worse than that clusterfuck, but you never know. My concerns about disaster relief mostly apply to the United States since I live on a major fault line in Utah and it's way overdue for mass mayhem.

I'm beginning to think there might be more going on than meets the eye in Haiti. Have you ever heard of a journalist named Kevin Pina? Google him if you get a chance.

Hope you're feeling better. Try TheraFlu. It works. ;)

TYY

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Hubby got it last week so off to teh doc we went
and I am taking Tamiflu already.

Due to the diabetes I cannot take theraflu, way too much sugar, and I should go to bed I know...

His was "pretty mild" by flu standards, he is almost out of it... and I am hoping I feel much better faster than he did, since I started taking the Tami almost as soon as it started... only missed one dose of the active sick dosage.
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Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
83. +1
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:15 AM
Response to Original message
11. Actually, I think they are doing an amazing job
They are doing much, much better than in New Orleans and in a much more primitive situation.

It's very hard to be here and watch how long it takes, even knowing it can't happen instantaneously. It's human nature to want the pain to stop, for them, and, to be honest, for us. Anybody who can be honest with themselves, knows that this feeling of helplessness is emotionally painful. Plenty of people respond by getting angry and lashing out at the people they perceive to not be taking that feeling away. It isn't right but it isn't unusual.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. It is also a reaction to Katrina
and you and I have an education on this... so for us this is going amazingly well... good news for future disasters in the US as well.

But the point of reference for that abject failure IS katrina... so part of the lashing out is that.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. Katrina Was More A FEMA Fubar
I haevn't seen any FEMA people involved in this...primarily USAID, the Military and NGOs. From what I've seen, this response has been very well executed. You provided some very valuable insight into what has to take place and we're starting to see some movement on the ground.

Looks like electricity and cellphones are starting to be restored which should help clear up the communications log jam.

The difference in Haiti is you had a dysfunctional government that all got blown apart in a matter of seconds when the ground shook. With Katrina, you had beaurucrats fighting over turf...needless hours and days that passed while Brownie was doing a "heck of a job".

The other difference is that Haiti is a natural disaster...while it's lack of infrastructure hampered the early efforts, in some ways it also prevented even worse. In the 1906 SF Quake, it was the fire that followed from ruptured gas lines that did the greatest damage...there were virtually no fires in Port Au Prince. Thank goodness for that.

Also Katrina was a man-made disaster...especially where New Orleans is concerned. The city weathered the storm, it was when the surge came up the Mr-Go canal that the nightmare began. It was letting the wetlands vanish to blunt the surge and then the poor construction of the levees that turned that Monday morning in NOLA into living hell...and could have been prevented. And that doesn't take into account the mismanagement of boooshie's FEMA and "Homeland Security"...

Again...thanks for all your informative posts and insight.

:hi:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. That's easy to explain
FEMA is for INTERNAL response and if they do get involved here would be in such a tertiary role you'd never hear about it.

USAID is for INTERNATIONAL response...

That is why you are not seeing National Guard troops responding here either...and very technically they had to get permission for regular army troops to go into Katrina...

That is way too much inside baseball of alphabet soup... and the only reason I know I guess, is I talked to FEMA managers and others way back in the way back machine.
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. I'm pretty sure...
... FEMA is already involved in Haiti.

TYY
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. In a very tertiary role
lead goes to USAID.

FEMA has logistics officers... so does USAID... but they can use a hand.
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Remember the toxic trailers?...
... I think those might be headed to Haiti... :(

TYY
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #31
42. I doubt that... mostly they have dstroyed them mostly
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Hope you're right... there're 15,000 of them available...
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 12:26 PM by TeeYiYi
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. Don't know how tertiary this is...
... I doubt it's the only deployment:

Beach-based FEMA rescue team heads to Haiti after delay

By Cindy Clayton
The Virginian-Pilot
January 15, 2010
VIRGINIA BEACH

An urban search-and-rescue team based in Virginia Beach is leaving todayfor Haiti.

The mission marks the first international deployment for Virginia Task Force 2, part of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. The unit includes 83 firefighters, physicians, structural engineers, a veterinarian and dog handlers from across the region and the Navy.

The team was expected to leave Thursday, but was delayed. The Air Force has agreed to fly the team and supplies to Haiti this afternoon using two C-17 airplanes, according to the Air Force.Virginia Task Force 2 is expected to be in Haiti for seven to 10 days. The reason for the delay was unclear.

The Virginia Beach-basedteam will search for victims trapped under the rubble of buildings that collapsed in Port-au-Prince during Tuesday's earthquake.

More at: http://hamptonroads.com/2010/01/beachbased-fema-rescue-...

TYY :shrug:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #36
43. Deploying as FEDERAL and under USAID Authority
so?

We have deployed, last count four DMAT teams... this is what this is.
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #29
38. Uh oh. Katrina redux? - "Private security firms sent to Haiti..."
Not only is FEMA already there, but so are the "private security contractors":

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Deju Vu all over again?

TYY
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #38
44. No, but if you want to believe that, nothing I can tell you
will assuage your fears.

By the way private contractors deployed from word go... who do think the Security teams going with top notch reporters are? (Why Sanjay Gupta staid behind when those doctors bugged out, and it is still something a hero does... even if he had WELL ARMED security with him)
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. I agree they're serving a purpose up front...
... but I also remember the "armed mercenaries" on the ground during Katrina. :(

TYY

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
45. Shame on me for being homeless and not able to store everything needed for that many days.
I should be allowed to die.

Shame on me!
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. Here are the other purpose of those supplies
it is not just self rescue, but COMMUNITY rescue. I cannot guarantee that others will share with you, but that is part of the intent.

I know I would, mostly I have.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. Yes, we homeless people see so much of that.
Hell, they don't even care about our physical safety in GOOD times.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. I am telling you the intent...
and beyond intent planners cannot go...

But those recommendations are to keep a community going until the cavalry shows up
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. Which is why I've tried for YEARS to get you "progressives" to understand reality for the rest of us
THE "PLANNERS" LEAVE US OUT.

Unless you start thinking differently, and begin FIGHTING for us, you follow right along and leave us behind.

HELLO!
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. I did this in Mexico and yes we assumed that we wold have to take
care of a whole slew of the population, REGARDLESS of status... house, no house, money or not.

The last time we had a large disaster in San Diego... yes the City Plan actually took care of all, regardless again of house, no house, or whatever... in fact, that was one of the complaints from some of our middle class families at the Stadium, that they had to share the space with them icky illegals and homeless... so be it...

But if I have a community that is CUT OFF and it will take me 24-72 hours to reach the location, it is a fact of life that I am not reaching you, or those with a house or not a house... that is a fact... so my only hope is that the COMMUNITY pools down resources and helps each other and does self rescue. This is not going to change if I cannot logistically reach the ciudad perdida due to the floods, or La Jolla California...

Now that is where human nature comes in, read the stadium situation. All the city could do was bring a few cops to protect the at risk population from any violence from our very angry... MY GOD we have to acknowledge their existence, middle class people. That speaks more about the US as a society, than anything else.

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. WEll, you can hope. There's a lot of that going around.
OR, you can become activist, and actually VOICE the needs that are being ignored.

And, no...it's not "human nature"....there are plenty of societies that DO take care of their own... that DO automatically look out for others.

This is about the Rugged Individualism of the 'Murkins. It is NOT universal.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. You are talking day to day
I am talking disaster relief... these are two very different animals.

By the way, the situation I described at the stadium... never in my experience in Mexico did I see it.

Hell, people tried to FEED US, the RESCUE WORKERS and AID workers, from THEIR meager supplies. I used to tell my people... don't, eat your MREs... and give these peoole bags of rise and beans, and clean water to cook it with... and all that. MREs were simply not familiar to the people we worked with.

And day to day, something gotta give... because this society is so fucked up... it is not even funny.

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. You CAN speak up about remembering us for "disaster" planning.
Or not.

Your choice.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. What part of we did, and you are, are you missing?
I know where you are, we have talked in the past, but you are really confusing day to day with disaster work

Here is a free clue... after a disaster... it is not just you who is homeless.

So try to understand that we take care of EVERYBODY and nobody cares if you pray to a god or not, or you are homeless or not. We deal with it.

Tell me... if god forbid something like this happened in Los Angeles... first a lot of the food stores that people were supposed to get who HAD homes, are going to be under tons of ruble, that is not reachable. You truly think an aid worker is going to aks you... bobbie did you have a home before this and send you away from the water and food because of that? Or go... ok one more set of hands, here you go, food and water...

I am betting on the second...

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. And here's the part YOU are not getting.
There are so many posts here at DU telling everyone it is their responsibiility to be "prepared"....and that is what you were talking about.

YOU can speak up and lend your voice to THAT....and stop some of the ignorance and blaming.

You know as well as I do that I can speak up until I run out of oxygen and pass out, and I won't be heard.

Or, you can remain silent about it.

Your choice.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. I don't blame you for not being able to
that is where SELF RESCUE AT THE COMMUNITY LEVEL COMES IN.

MOST of the people posting on DU, do live pretty much middle class lives who should be able to afford to do that... and chiefly SHARE in an emergency with you. They are not just ignorant about poverty problems in the US... if we use some pixie dust then we should have all those relief supplies in the middle of Port Au Prince and all will be fine with the world. A little more pixie dust and all the poverty issues in the States will be solved. So it is not JUST poverty or homelessness that they are ignorant about.

This self rescue as a community message is meant at THEM...

That is the part you are purposely missing.

But any disaster plan worth it's salt has a chapter on vulnerable populations.

Civil Defense does NOT care about color of skin, religion, language spoken, or status before the quake. or at least SHOULD NOT.

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. You know, I appreciate that your heart seems to be in the right place.
But leave your blaming "That is the part you are purposely missing." You are purposely saying stuff like that to get me angry, and I ain't biting.

You KNOW that unless someone like you VERBALLY points out this:
"This self rescue as a community message is meant at THEM... " that they will NOT hear that... it is NOT in their minds.

Again, I say.... you can SAY it is pointed at THEM, and remind them they have a responsibility to the rest of us, or you can blame me and stay quiet.

YOUR call.





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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. I have
but that's ok.

Every time we have a disaster I do...

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. Then thank you. All I asked is that you use the voice you have to speak out on our behalf.
Like the animals that some prefer to care about, we homeless people have NO VOICE.

We depend on people like you to remember us and to speak out, because we are hurting very deeply from being constantly ignored. I can't even begin to tell you what it does to our spirits, and I can't even begin to tell you the fear that overcomes us when we hear of a disaster like this one, and all these "be prepared" pronouncements. No wonder so many of us have the symptoms of PTSD... its a continual wearing away process of our very beings.

I am hurt that you would stoop to saying something as harsh as I "Purposely overlook"...blah blah blah. And I have given up on DU saying that I'm hurt by things, because then I'm mocked for expressing pain. Do you begin to have an inkling now of what I'm contending with? Damned for every possible move and every possible expression.

If you all could just walk in our shoes for even a short time....
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #74
79. Here's what I ask..... read through these many posts today about being prepared,
and being responsible, and pretend you are poor and/or homeless, and not able to do what is being demanded.

Note how it makes you feel.

That's what I'm asking of all of you.... walk in our world for a while.

How quickly we have forgotten that what happened to the people of The Super Dome happened because they had not the resources to "be prepared" or to leave.

Are/were they not just as worthy as the rest of you?
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #45
54. But for anyone who has a home, they should have the water on hand
the homeless are a different story, but the shelters should be so equipped.

In any zone where earthquakes or hurricanes can happen.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. And you assume that everyone has a space in a "shelter"...full of disease, and
low-nutrition food.

I really wish there was some way to educate "progressives" about the realities.

MY POINT..... its so easy to make these proclamations.... so look at who you ignore without even a THOUGHT.

YOU ASSUME EVERYONE IS LIKE YOU.

YOU ASSUME THERE ARE RESOURCES THAT DON'T EXIST.

LEARN TO THINK OF OTHERS BESIDES THOSE JUST LIKE YOU.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. That's unfair
I believe I did say the homeless obviously were exempt from having to keep these survival things, and that the government should have the shelters provide those things.

I can't see what you'd advocate about that which would be different.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Yes, its unfair. Its unfair that WE don't even enter your minds.
Its unfair that we can say things to raise awareness politely, and get ignored.

Its unfair that then we can speak up louder (as Malcolm X did, btw), and get dismissed for being "angry".

What does it take?

May you walk in our shoes and experience that unfairness for yourself.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #61
73. You really are determined
I said I agreed with you.

WHAT THE FUCK MORE DO YOU WANT!!!

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #73
80. What the fuck do I want?
For you to try walking in my shoes.... seeing my world from my eyes....

To stop yelling and try to open your heart a bit.

READ ALL THAT HAS BEEN SAID ABOUT BEING PREPARED, AND UNDERSTAND WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO NOT BE ABLE TO DO THAT, AND THE TERROR AND DESPAIR THAT IT CREATES.

Then reach out with some understanding and caring.

Or, just yell.

Whatever.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
46. I love that line from Men In Black: "You're everything we've come to expect...
"...from years of government training"
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
53. Californians know that too
There are guidelines for how much water to have, tinned food, radio with batteries, flashlight.

Every household should have that. A lot of people ignore that because so much time goes by without an earthquake. But they shouldn't. It could happen.

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #53
63. Its a damned good thing there are no homeless people in California who can't carry all of that
around at all times in a damned backpack, and not have the things in it they need THEN.

Whew...really damned good thing there aren't those pathetic kinds of people.
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #63
72. Suggestions?
Bobolink:

You seem pretty angry about homelessness. Are you homeless now?

Where? You seem to mention California a lot, is this because you are here or just a rhetorical reference?

I ask because I have been homeless myself, long ago. I was lucky and I know of what you speak in terms of feeling like no one is listening or no one cares about your plight. I do know what it is like not to know where the next meal is coming from or where I would sleep tonight. I also knew the fear of the police and of being a victim of random crime or of getting sick and not being able to receive medical treatment. Like I said, I was lucky and was able to finagle my way to health, financial security, roof over my head, job, etc.

I have volunteered and worked to supply homeless more resources. I have donated money and food for homeless efforts here in the Bay Area. When homelessness first became a big issue here, it was returning VN vets and the mentally ill that Reagan released when he was governor that spawned what it is today. There have been numerous efforts to deal with and/or eradicate the problem here, good and bad, effective and not effective. Unless we eliminate the reasons for homelessness (not a great probability in an unplanned lassaiz faire economy) it will be a constant in modern day USA. Our politicians resonate to those that constitute voting blocks, not to welfare mothers, the disabled, or the homeless, the young, the disenfranchised of any sort, etc. I feel what you feel and yet I am at wit's end to know what to do to either eliminate the causes for it in our current economic system or to implement measures that would stem the tide and help those that are homeless, to get shelter, jobs, healthcare, etc.:


History of Homelessness and San Francisco City Policy

During the 1980s, homeless people began appearing in large numbers in the city, the result of factors that were affecting the country at large combined with San Francisco's attractive environment and forgiving policies: economic and social changes, the popularity of new addictive drugs, and the wide dispersal of Vietnam veterans are often cited as reasons for the growth of the problem. Mayor Art Agnos(1988-92) was the first to attack the problem, and not the last; it's a top issue for San Franciscans even today. Agnos allowed the homeless to camp in the Civic Center park, which led to its title of "Camp Agnos." The failure of this lenient policy led to his being replaced by Frank Jordan in 1992. Jordan launched the "MATRIX" program the next year, which aimed to displace the homeless through aggressive police action. And it did displace them - to the rest of the city. His successor, Willie Brown, was able to largely ignore the problem, riding on the strong economy into a second term. Gavin Newsom, while working to increase the amount of supportive housing, is attempting to solving the homeless problem by making the homeless as uncomfortable as possible so they are forced to utilize services (even though there are currently not enough services) or leave the city.

Through increasing use of homeless sweeps, property theft, and anti-homeless police citations, the city of San Francisco has made a notably aggressive attempt over the past three years to decrease the visibility of homelessness. Homeless people are routinely displaced and told to "move on," as an attempt to make them less visible. Large-scale homeless "sweeps" are frequently used as a tactic to accomplish this.

Newsom Administration

2004: Care Not Cash is passed and General Assistance checks are cut from $349 a month to $59 a month. Anti-panhandling legislation is passed, though city officials say social workers will be sent to help panhandlers instead of giving them tickets. Social workers were out on the street for less than a week. Street cleaners begin washing the sidewalks of the Tenderloin (Market to California) three times a night with powerful hoses. The street cleaners spray the homeless while they are sleeping. The homeless are required to be fingerprinted in order to stay in shelters and there GA checks will be cut to $59 if they choose to stay in a shelter. Changes in homeless policy have led more homeless people to migrate to different neighborhoods or to squat in houses of people on vacation or abandoned buildings. The city begins to work on creating supportive housing for the chronically homeless.

http://www.welcomeministry.org/resources/history /


Just my dos centavos

robdogbucky

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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. It doesn't matter
There is nothing you can say.

I knew there was a reason I used to have this poster on ignore. Unfortunately I cleared the list.

What a fucking tool. How to erase sympathy for even the homeless, by claiming to be one and then rejecting all other people.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #72
77. It doesn't matter
There is nothing you can say.

I knew there was a reason I used to have this poster on ignore. Unfortunately I cleared the list.

What a fucking tool. How to erase sympathy for even the homeless, by claiming to be one and then rejecting all other people.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #63
75. You are sick
You are determined to make everything about yourself and to be a victim no matter what the other person says.

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #75
81. Thank you for being such a compassionate "progressive".
All of you who can't understand what it feels like to be bombarded with how we should be doing more to take care of ourselves, whose hearts have shriveled to the point where they can't even spare a bit of understanding are the sick ones.

Yes, I mean that.

You are the ones who need therapy to figure out why you have built walls so high that you can't let in the pain of others, and feel a need to try to demean them in public.

Now THAT is sick.

Worthy of the Falwells and the Robersons and the Limpballs.

SICK.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
82. I agree with you
Each disaster had it's own element of difficulty and each response has to be tailored accordingly.

Katrina was a debacle because the city, the state and the government had a 5 day lead to to force evacuation and they failed. Knowing that much of the population relied on city transportation that same transportation could have been used to evacuate the citizens.

I think that 3 days worth of supplies is not adequate I think it should be a minimum of 5 because that has been the average of when help has gotten to a lot of areas.

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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
84. So, Pararescue? SEAL? Green Beret? Delta Force? Or is it just toooo soooper-sekret for you to tell?
"But some of us are talking TECHNICALESE... which is a sub-branch of the language."

:rofl:
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. *Kick*
:kick:
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