Money for Haiti but no money for health care?

[reggie the dog]

When the poor need money in the USA they are welfare queens. Here in France they are gutting our social services because there is supposedly no money. The poor in France and the USA are not worth investing money in as much as in the past yet somehow the same political parties that will not spend money on our own people are falling all over themselves to spend our money helping the poor in Haiti. For France it is especially insulting. Haiti won their independence FIGHITING AGAINST US FRENCH, now my taxes that supposedly are not enough to keep our health care, retirement, and social programs up and running well is going to go to people who won their independence from us. Am I evil? I don't get it. Why are the poor in Haiti more deserving of public aid than the poor in the USA or in France? The same govts that justify cutting spending on us spend money on others. Cant they get their feel good sense from helping the poor in our countries too? Does thinking like this make me an asshole? Am I just negating horror by reacting like this?

[closeupready]

1. Yes, it does. Step away from the keyboard.

Take a break.

[Warpy]

2. Apples and oranges

I have been without health insurance since the 80s through no fault of my own. I could afford it if anyone would write it, which they won't. This is an injustice that has to be rectified politically. Money is not the problem.

Money is the problem with Haiti. Those people don't need to be offered national health insurance (which, by the way, they had). They need everything, starting with the human basic need of water.

Please don't make false comparisons or offer false choices. They do reflect badly.

[reggie the dog]

42. Isnt the lack of health care in the states, which concerns my

own brother, just as important as helping people in Haiti? Where was the help for Haiti last week? Sure there was LESS suffering but it was already hellish.

[timeforpeace]

44. The inherent flaw of socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

[villager]

46. the inherent flaw in capitalism is that you eventually run out of earth to exploit

a system based on unchecked growth on a clearly finite planet, and all that...

[Spazito]

53. Pathetic but expected n/t

[CreekDog]

85. John Lennon wants his avatar back

:wtf:

[lib2DaBone]

91. This isn't about exposing the flaws in Socialism...

.. it's about exposing the hypocrisy of Corporate Kleptocracy disguised as Democracy.

"Trickle-down means they are peeing on your leg and telling you it's raining".

[reggie the dog]

93. you put it in so much better terms than I was able to

[virgogal]

3. Do the words "emergency" or "disaster" mean anything to you?

[reggie the dog]

18. yes

to me it is a disaster that we demonize the poor in the USA and France as welfare queens, lazy etc and the same political parties fall all over themselves to help the poor in Haiti. Why cant we help the poor in Haiti, France, and the USA?

[Earth_First]

4. BOO!

unrec'd.

[marmar]

5. But look at it this way, both France and the U.S. have played a big role in the shape Haiti is in

nt

[Earth_First]

7. Absoultely! +1 n/t

[reggie the dog]

16. You are 100% correct

[timeforpeace]

45. Dealing with crises these days starts with blaming somebody.

[marmar]

118. And sometimes the blame is well deserved.....

BTW, Lennon wants his avatar back.

[Blue-Jay]

6. Hell yeah! Fuck Haiti!

"Does thinking like this make me an asshole?"

Yes.

[blondeatlast]

13. +1. nt

[reggie the dog]

48. I never said not to help.

Just questioned why it is so important to help the poor abroad when we demonize them in my 2 home countries, the USA and France.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Well here you go, INTERNATIONAL response to Katrina

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina

This is what happens in MAJOR incidents...

And yes, I understand your anger... and no, you are not asshole... people react in different ways to these things

[villager]

9. It's true that people are helped more, or best, in an acute crisis, rather than a slow-moving one

It seems our species is unable to deal with "long range" or "big picture" policy making -- or kindnesses.

It's an odd contrast in "modalities," to say the least...

[LeftishBrit]

62. Very true,

[meegbear]

10. As long as homosexuals are allowed to have abortions in public schools these things are gonna happen

[LooseWilly]

122. Clearly homosexuals should only be allowed to have abortions in private schools.

Catholic schools, to be specific...

[sandnsea]

11. Dead people are piled up in the streets of France??

Oh my god, I missed that. Post reports immediately!

I have a French ancestor who actually fought in Haiti in 1803, do you? I'm ashamed. You should be too.

[reggie the dog]

35. No, but I am just as ashamed of my dad

having fought in Vietnam. Poor have been freezing to death here in France, yet it supposedly has nothing to do with our govt. cutting funding for building public housing..... and cutting social spending in general....and letting people live in sub standard housing because they are "roms" or "gypsies" and those people just like it like that anyway (sarcasm). The right wing here in France is so willing to help in Haiti, they should help in France too.

[mkultra]

115. you shoudl be ashamed of yourself

[polly7]

12. So ... are you upset they fought and won their independance?

There are people in Haiti literally walking through bodies. Small children without water, food, shelter .... people with horrific injuries and as of yet many without medical aid. People are still TRAPPED under tons of concrete, begging for their lives. And you're angry they won their independence FIGHTING AGAINST YOU FRENCH?

Borrow a little empathy and compassion. You never know where the big one will hit next. Sure hope it isn't France, and that not many have your attitide. BTW .... how many dead bodies are littering the streets in France, how many French people are currently screaming in agony under concrete and rubble? I'll google that, but I don't think it's happening.

[reggie the dog]

34. I never meant the post to say not to help Haiti, I want help

in France, the USA, Sudan, Afghanistan, everywhere, not just good photo ops for our greedy right wing UMP party six weeks before elections. Of course Haiti had every moral right to rebel, and their economy is fucked because ever since the first slaves rebelled rich white money has avoided their island like the plague, so they have had no real possiblity to sell their goods, develop or anything.

[zazen]

14. you aren't negating horror, but people here are too sensitive to address both now

I got flamed yesterday for asking a standard question in peak oil circles about human capacities to deal with immediate catastrophe vs. long term problems (such as were supposed to be addressed at the failed international Copenhagen effort), and I got called, let's see, a Freeper, compared to Limbaugh and Robertson, and then called a racist.

I saw that someone posting about Naomi Klein's disaster capitalism got flamed for being insensitive too.

It _is_ possible to address two issues at once, and it's not like those of us typing at this keyboard are down there taking time away from providing medical care to post on this board.

I personally don't think your ancestors were very nice to them, to put it mildly (and my ancestors were slaveowners, so I have my share of inherited guilt), so from where I sit it's hard to agree with that angle of your argument, but I agree with your overall point, that we somehow ignore the poor in our own backyards and yet are able to mobilize for a crisis like this.

What I intended yesterday and I think what you are intending is to say, let's KEEP doing a great job addressing THIS horrific catastrophe, but let's take the momentum and emotion and commitment that the international community is able to mobilize for this and figure out how to apply it to other seemingly intractable problems.

[reggie the dog]

31. My ancestors are actually not French

they are Italian, German, Polish, Austrian, Lithuanian, Prussian and American, but yes the people in the past in France where I have nationality now did enslave Haiti and that was horrible. I only wish the right wing UMP would fall all over itself to help people here in France instead of privitizing our public services, cutting retirment and health care, and saying they have no money to us but then suddenly feel moved to help in Haiti. They should be willing to help everywhere. And just before our March elections they are making themselves look nice and generous when they have been telling us for years that no money is left (after they cut taxes on the rich and on companies)

[KakistocracyHater]

123. the Right in France & America want to empty their nations coffers, people

here can be too emotional & cannot see the bigger threat implied by the very things you have noticed. My question is WHY do they seem hellbent on bankrupting their own governments? They MAY well intend to establish oligarchy-rule, or feudalism 21st Century-style; they seem to be empowering corporations to ignore nations, giving them their own private security forces, exemption to evironmental laws, etc., much like the old East India Co.
Science-fiction anticipated this in the 1970s, see Joan Vinge, etc.

[Texasgal]

15. Oh godammit!

Give it a rest already!

Be grateful that you have water to drink and a fucking internet connection!

[reggie the dog]

22. I am, but many people in France live in "bidonvilles" without water

or internet, more and more americans live like that too, ramshackle housing, no running water. Here they are called "roms" or "gypsies" and people just dont give a damn about them.

[Texasgal]

49. Cry me a fucking river.

[reggie the dog]

57. so the "gypsises" should just freeze to death over here?

Why not help them too? I never said not to help Haiti, just that I did not understand the logic behind a govt. that thinks helping its own people is a waste of time, and is helping less and less each day, actually being so willing to help other people, unless it is a cost effective way to look like they care before our upcoming elections in March.

[Kahuna]

17. Rush???? Is dat you? nt

[reggie the dog]

19. no,

just someone confused about why people are so willing to help Sumatra, Haiti etc when there is an earthquake, yet they hate helping poor in their own countries. I am not talking about most people on this board but the same UMP that tells me this morning that I have to work more years before retirement because there is not enough money is spending money in Haiti, they tell us in France that social spending is cut because the government coffers are empty (thanks to tax cuts for the rich) yet, like with the banks, they suddenly have money now. I am not saying not to spend money on Haiti, just that we should care about our own people too..

[blondeatlast]

24. Well, in the case of France--they pretty much made Haiti what it was on Tuesday.

Perhaps y'all should clean up your own messes before you bitch about your friend's housekeeping habits.

[reggie the dog]

27. France has blood on its hands in Haiti

We (the right wing govt here in France) even supports their dictator baby duc dulivar or whatever he is called. But why should the same UMP politicians that demonize the poor in France be so willing to help the poor in Haiti if it is not just for a feel good photo op? We have elections here in 6 weeks and the right wing is making themselves look generous when they are actually stingy with their own people.

[muriel_volestrangler]

117. You're saying that sending aid abroad is an election move, but spending it on voters wouldn't be?

That's got to be the most unusual election in the world. Everywhere else, spending money on humanitarian aid, rather than on people who can vote for or against you in 6 weeks' time, would be seen as a vote loser.

I salute the French electorate whom you describe as being truly selfless. And if the UMP is doing it to win votes, then at least they're winning the votes of good people.

[LeftyMom]

20. You left out the part about Hatians being enslaved to enrich the French.

Oh, poor poor France, getting picked on by those desperately poor Hatians. How dare they act like they're owed anything?

You, sir, are a spectacularly shortsighted asshole.

[reggie the dog]

23. which is why I asked, I wanted to be sure I was being an asshole

Haiti had a moral right to rebel against slavery. That cannot be denied.

[hileeopnyn8d]

And the part where

France made THEM pay reparations.

[reggie the dog]

37. and the dictator they support

funny that the current govt. is so eager to help. Is it because there are elections in 6 or 8 weeks?

[YOY]

21. Bitch about wars...not aid.

n.t.

[blondeatlast]

25. Best response yet. nt

[reggie the dog]

26. you are right, it is probably a better strategy

but it pisses me off so much to see my right wing govt. so willing to help the poor in Haiti, yet so unwilling to help the poor here in France, they even demonize the poor as "loafing off of the system" in France and now are all to happy to look like nice people helping the poor in Haiti..... It may be different in the USA seeing as the govt. is on the left an all, but when I lived in the USA I remember Clinton going on about "welfare queens" and gutting social spending..

[tekisui]

83. .

:thumbsup:

[undeterred]

28. The poor in Haiti needed aid before the earthquake.

[reggie the dog]

38. exactly, so did the poor in the USA and in France

at least we are helping in Haiti, but look at what the USA did for its own in New Orleans. Look at what France does concerning its own nomadic population, mostly it is to chase them on to the next town.

[cali]

29. sick and ugly post. puke.

[reggie the dog]

33. I actually vote on the extreme left and posted this

based mostly on the UMP party in France constantly telling us in France that there is no money, that social spending should be cut, and that poor people are lazy and loaf off of the system and now they fall all over themselves to be generous in Haiti six weeks before elections here in France. It all looks too staged.

[Blue-Jay]

39. Oooo! The extreeeeme left!

Nobody better dare question your judgment. You're leftier than the leftiest leftist. I bow to you.

[reggie the dog]

41. not at all, I am just not a Republican or a puke

I never said not to help Haiti in my post, never, I just dont see the logic of a stingy, social spending cutting (leading to more hardship in France) govt being so willing to help the poor somewhere else, except for the upcoming elections over here. I guess I am too cynical.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

51. Is that kind of like the people who eat the really, really hot hot sauce?

They prove their manliness or whatever, and then there's the ensuing toilet apocalypse.

[reggie the dog]

59. I dont know, but I do know that I participated in such a thing

on Reunion Island (France in the Indian Ocean) the food there is increadbly spicy and I kept up with the locals because I love spice, but on the way out damn that was rough.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. It's A Pittance What Will We Send Haiti

It would probably cover the cost of health care for all in one day;
















in the city of Columbus.

[reggie the dog]

36. well the media is all over talking about how much the

French are helping, letting the UMP fucks on the radio to say how much they care (yet they seem to despise the poor here in France).

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

32. Well now, let's see...

When the poor need money in the USA they are welfare queens.

You may have noticed that the same people who use that phrasing in the United States are also calling the Haitians "welfare queens."

Here in France they are gutting our social services because there is supposedly no money.

Unfortunately France is in a situation where tax revenues have decreased, spending has increased, and they are not able to engage in the sort of profligate deficit spending that characterizes US budgeting in these types of situations.

The poor in France and the USA are not worth investing money in as much as in the past yet somehow the same political parties that will not spend money on our own people are falling all over themselves to spend our money helping the poor in Haiti.

Allow me to provide you with a piping hot bowl of clue soup: The amount of money being spent on relief for Haiti is a tiny, tiny fraction of what is spent in a single month on social services in France. To compare one to the other isn't just comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing a single apple to a citrus plantation.

For France it is especially insulting.

Of course it is. :eyes:

Haiti won their independence FIGHITING AGAINST US FRENCH,

Well France did kind of dick them over. Just a little bit, y'know.

now my taxes that supposedly are not enough to keep our health care, retirement, and social programs up and running well

Again, it's that whole pesky decreased revenue vs. increased spending + inability to deficit spend problem.

is going to go to people who won their independence from us.

I'm not even going to bother with this part of your argument any more because I'm sure 100 other people in this thread will jump all over it anyway. But let me just say this: If you're going to invoke Haiti's fight against France as a reason not to help them, you'd best be prepared for others to invoke what France did to Haiti that precipitated their revolution.

Am I evil?

No, this is America. The evil people always have upper class British accents, not French accents.

I don't get it. Why are the poor in Haiti more deserving of public aid than the poor in the USA or in France?

Because the primary natural resource of the country of Haiti at this point in time is decomposing bodies.

As for the rest of your post it's just a rehash of your previous arguments, so I'm ignoring it.

[reggie the dog]

40. thanks for disecting what I said

just note "now my taxes that supposedly are not enough to keep our health care, retirement, and social programs up and running well

Again, it's that whole pesky decreased revenue vs. increased spending + inability to deficit spend problem." the current govt. is the one who cut taxes on the wealthy and on companies saying it would benefit everyone.

I know Haiti had a moral right to rebel. I need to give you the context. Guadaloupe, Martinique, and Reunion Island stayed in France and now, morally justifiably, get subsudised from the mainland, the trade off is that they are like Hawaii, they are not independent, which means I can go live there while staying in one of my 2 countries (I am French and American).
I think we should help Haiti, but not that it should be the right wing who is not willing to help the French.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

50. It needed dissecting. It was still squirming a bit.

the current govt. is the one who cut taxes on the wealthy and on companies saying it would benefit everyone.

So because your current government sucks, no aid should be sent to Haiti. I'm glad nobody over here used that logic when Stupid was president. And I don't give a fuck about what happened between your ancestors and Haiti hundreds of years ago because it's totally irrelevant.

[reggie the dog]

54. I never ever said not to send aid, never.

I concede that I was stupid when I talked about independence seeing as they rebelled agaisnt slavery. Aid should go to Haiti but the same govt. should also feel a moral need to aid its own people too.

[blondeatlast]

58. You resent that monetary aid is being sent to Haiti by the French government. You are French

as you've stated several times. It's your tax dollars that you resent sending there.

Yes, you were saying that aid shouldn't be sent (because the aid is your tax dollars). :banghead:

[reggie the dog]

60. no, I said why send my taxes to help Haiti if my taxes will not

help the poor in my own country? It is more of a call out of the hypocracy of telling us that there is no more money "les caisses sont vides" and then spending money abroad. The bastards can spend some more over here too and not cut our social services. I would support spending here, and abroad, even if it means paying more taxes.

[blondeatlast]

64. So I ask again, what do you want DU to do about it?

I really am :banghead: confused.

What influence do I have in France's government? What, exactly, was your point in the original post?

[reggie the dog]

66. The post is anger at my French politicians

and anger at my American politicians for both demonizing the needy in their home countries. Have the Democrats come out against Clintons "welfare queen" idea? and now he, the guy that hates spending taxes on "lazy welfare queens" is helping in Haiti. Am I the only cynic who thinks it is all a bs photo op to these people? medecins sans frontiers was on the ground already, for decades in Haiti, I think their motiviation is to help. When Cuba and Venezuela send help I think it is sincere, but I just do not get that vibe from my 2 governments.

[stray cat]

43. You can donate to health care programs here - go contribute and volunteer!

[reggie the dog]

47. why not just re raise the taxes on the rich

that were lowered, leading to the situation of not having enough money and the following cuts in social spending. the same govt that cut taxes on the rich in France is all to eager to help in Haiti, yet for us in France they say there is no more money.

[blondeatlast]

52. Why in the hell are you asking US? Your beef is with your own government. Suppose

I decided to support you and called your government, would that help?

I really, really don't think so.

[reggie the dog]

63. I have 2 nationalities, and 2 governemnts

and the Democrats under Clinton demonized the poor as much as is being done in France today. Clinton used the term welfare queens I believe. I grew up in the USA for 24 years and never understood why we basically told the poor within our borders to go fuck themselves yet were willing to help in other countries. Why not help in both situations? If the poor in the USA are welfare queens how are they not welfare queens in Haiti. Seeing as they are not welfare queens in Haiti arent they also not welfare queens in the USA? Not to mention the carnage the USA and France are doing to the Afghan people together.....but that is another can of worms. on edit, me calling my govt in France, or my govt in the USA really would not do anything either, seeing as both are corrupt and both work for the elite and piss on the average person in their respective countries. and suddenly these servants of the elite care about the less fortunate, in another country, more than they care for the less fortunate in their own country. I know Obama is in power now, I doubt he would wait 5 days to help New Orleans, but based on the last big natural disaster in the USA the USA does not even help its own people quickly (this is a reason to help US people more quickly, not help Haiti more slowly).

[blondeatlast]

65. What the hell is your point? I don't use that phrase, I have no beef with helping the destitute

long term or short term, and I have no idea what you want us to do about this.

[reggie the dog]

67. I want our governments to care about us

as they seem to care about the Haitians. I dont want us to stop the aid to Haiti, I want us to extend empathy to our own people. Many of us on DU seem to do that already, but many repubs, and many in govt. in both parties do not. It makes me think that this is all a big photo op to many of the people in the UMP, Democrats and Republicans.

[blondeatlast]

70. then I suggest looking at a history book of both France and the US. Offering aid to countries

in cataclismic disasters is rather common.

As for long-term aid--like I say, you need to lobby your own government as I do mine.

[reggie the dog]

75. do you think that we could both lobby to get debt for Haiti forgiven?

Sarkozy actually suggested it, I think to help the UMP in the March elections, but still he said it on camera and if we push with letters and blogging on newspaper websites do you think it will happen? That would actually be long term aid to Haiti. I will do my best with strikes, demonstrations, blogging and voting to get actual progressives in power in France adn will blog and vote in the USA (where I no longer live) to the same ends.

[blondeatlast]

78. I already have, writing my pathetic RW reps and Senators. Do you know about Jubilee.org?

Here's where you cna lend a hand:

http://www.jubileeusa.org/?id=112

[reggie the dog]

79. thank you for some weekend reading

I have supported dropping debt in general for a long time (yes even for the USA) because it is never the rich who pay it back, it is the working and poor who pay it back. Plus the interest paid often adds up to more than the original debt but I had not heard of this organization.

[rucky]

55. Wholesale suffering will always get more attention than the slow, gradual

slip through the cracks variety. We should have the foresight and resolve to address both when they happen. It should never be an either/or proposition.

[Posteritatis]

56. "For France it is especially insulting"

Do you expect me or anyone else to have the tiniest shred of sympathy for the French feeling insulted that aid is going to a country which threw them out of one of its slavery-based colonies two hundred years ago?

For Christ's sake. I need a microscope so I can find the necessary violin to react to that kind of bullshit.

Yes, thinking like that makes you an asshole.

[reggie the dog]

68. Ok, after actually thinking about what I wrote I agree that

the talking of the slave rebellion as adding insult was out of line. I leave it in the original post to not be like the pigs in animal farm, but I concede that that part is the thinking of an asshole. It just burns me that on of my 2 govts (I am French and American) seems more willing to give a helping hand to people who fought for independence than they do to their own people (who actually fought for independece too) after nearly 200 years of not giving a shit. It seems to fake, but if France's push to forgive Haitian debt comes out of this, photo op or not, it will be a great thing for Haiti.

[Posteritatis]

71. Can people not improve their attitude after two hundred years? (nt)

[reggie the dog]

73. you would think so

I was angry at my govt and typing with my head up my ass. It happens, be it rarely, and that is why it was serious when I asked in my op if I was being an asshole. I was on an angry rant and wanted to see if I was really out of line or not. In the case of the bs I said about the revolution i was clearly out of line for even thinking what I typed.

[LeftishBrit]

61. Apart from anything else...

do you seriously think that they should somehow be punished for fighting against the old imperialism? When I hear of a disaster in India or former British Africa or for that matter the USA, the LAST thing I think is 'Those rebels! They don't deserve any help from us!'

I'm no fan of Sarkozy, but what he (or New Labour or even Thatcher) have done to their people is NOTHING compared with the horrors in Haiti.

Tax cuts for rich people, and coddling of incompetent and greedy bankers, and (in the UK and USA, not France) war spending have certainly helped to gut public services. Aid to the desperately poor abroad is not a significant factor.

I would also add that public services in France even under Sarkozy, like those in the UK even under New Labour, are probably a hell of a lot better than those in the USA even under Obama.

[reggie the dog]

69. you are right, the Haitians rebelled against the same imperialism

I hate. I was totally out of line and had not thought about what I was saying at that point.

[Romulox]

72. Reggie, your post makes people feel guilty, which makes them angry.

People want to feel justified when they ignore poverty in their own country--even self-righteous! Posts like yours give this sort perfect cover.

[Violet_Crumble]

77. No, I'm not angry at sheer stupidity and ugliness...

I find the self-centred 'what about meee?' crap and the stupidity in not being able to comprehend that Haiti being hit by a devastating earthquake with a massive loss of life is a very different thing to poverty in the US to be pathetic and so Ugly American. Trying to do something about poverty and crap healthcare systems is a good thing, but when it's piggybacked on something as horrific as what happened in Haiti, it just comes across as freeperish in its ignorance....

I'm not at all sure why there seems to be a few DUers who think displaying such ugliness helps any cause. It doesn't...

[reggie the dog]

81. I never said me

I am middle class, I don't really need the services being gutted in France so that the rich can pay less taxes and so that we can go to war in Afghanistan. The retirement and health care effect me but only so much as everyone else. I am really concerned about THE POOR here in France being demonized as lazy and loafing off the system by the same govt. that helps the poor in Haiti. I want my govt. to help the poor IN HAITI AND IN FRANCE. Why is there not an uproar about terms like welfare queens, (feignants), ect? I can understand the wave of concern to help Haiti but just do not understand the lack of concern about the lot of the poor in France, the European Union, and the USA.

[Violet_Crumble]

86. Yr identifying yrself as French and a US citizen, so you are making it all about you....

If you want yr message to come across in a much less ugly way, then try starting a thread about poverty in the US and France. There's no need at all to try to clumsily link them with the earthquake in Haiti, and I don't understand the need of some to do so. Can you understand why it's coming across as pretty callous and stupid to try to link them? If not, I'm more than happy to explain it to you...

[reggie the dog]

90. please explain

hear me out and then rip me up if you think i am out of line. this is not sarcasm, I score nearly autistic on the many online surveys I have taken and sometimes I just dont feel right and my family says sometimes it is if I have no feelings, no soul.

I think we should help in Haiti, but I think we should be just as disgusted about the lot of the poor in France and the USA on a daily basis, as we should about the poor everywhere in the world. I see my French leaders telling us there is no money for our social services, yet just before an election they are willing to help in Haiti (they probalby would have even without the elections but whould they have had the same sense of urgency? (Remember France actually supported the Hutus in Rwanda). Also when I see Bill Clinton, who used the term welfare queens to demonize the poor in the USA I get the same bad feeling that they want a nice photo op with some poor non whites. I feel powerless to do anything to actually get the leaders of the world (bankers, the elite, and the politicians they own) to start to give a damn about poverty on a daily basis, clean water on a daily basis, quality life for all of us you know, and I get pissed off when the ruling elite give help with a smile in this really bad situation, but just forget less, how shall I say, media attention grabbing tragedy on a daily basis.

[hileeopnyn8d]

99. You are confusing Reagan with Clinton.

It was Reagan who used the term welfare queens. This is about the tenth time you've posted that in this thread, and I just couldn't take it anymore, I had to say something.

[reggie the dog]

104. Well I'll be damned, I hated Reagan already

it seems he did coin the term welfare queen, i got confused with Bill because "The Myth of the Welfare Queen is a powerful rebuttal of the specter that's been wielded by those who have worked to dismantle the welfare system: the welfare scammer. Ironically, it was not a Republican administration but Bill Clinton who dealt that system its most lethal blow. On August 22, 1996 Clinton signed the 'welfare reform act,' thereby eliminating 13 million people, including 8 million children, from the AFDC rolls. Author David Zucchino writes, "...few of the Senators and congressmen who voted for the welfare bill had ever met a person on welfare, and even fewer had attempted to find out precisely what welfare recipients did with their government checks."" http://www.meredithmaran.com/mag_chrn_queen.htm it seems that bill did not say it, but continued with the stigmitization. I thought he actually said it but it seems you are correct.

[Violet_Crumble]

119. I think the mistake yr making is linking the two things...

I think we should help in Haiti, but I think we should be just as disgusted about the lot of the poor in France and the USA on a daily basis...

I feel a lot of emotions when it comes to the earthquake, but disgust isn't one of them. Yr talking about two very different things and it does come across as just a bit disgusting to insist people have to feel the same about the poor in the US as they do about Haitan survivors and those still buried under the rubble. The poor in the US aren't in the same life-threatening situation that earthquake survivors are right now. Also, why is it that the people I've seen start threads like yrs weren't starting threads about poverty in the US before the earthquake happened?

[Fire1]

80. Why in the fuck would I feel "guilt" about ANYTHING in this

"country." The "poor" HERE are still better off than the poor in Haiti!

[reggie the dog]

82. but they are so much worse off than they could be

with all the wealth that exists in the USA. The poor in the USA could all be middle class if the wealthy were just a little bit less wealthy. And what about Americans who dont get health care and have cancer or aids? They are just as fucked as people in 3rd world countries.

[Fire1]

89. Sorry reg, you need to do some more research. The level

of poverty, desperation and despair in country's like Haiti is unparalleled.

[reggie the dog]

92. Afghanistan, Sudan,

there are other really horrible places, North Korea perhaps? I know the poor in the USA and France are better off than the poor in Haiti, but at the same time people can die for lack of health care in the USA too and that is just not right. We should work to help all people of the world have access to clean drinking water, food, medecine, shelter, and education. I think that would go much farther on fighting terrorism than bombing Afghanistan ever has. But are there enough resources on the planet?

[Romulox]

103. Well, guilt for some, "cover" for others. Interesting that you're so blatant about it though.

:hi:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

101. How far do you want to take "my own first" notion? You mentioned this in the 1st thread on the sub.

If people shouldn't donate to other countries if they don't donate to Detroit, why should people donate to Detroit if there is poverty in their own state? Why donate to other cities in their own state if there is poverty in their own town?


And none of those answers addresses the fact that there is a huge difference between ongoing poverty and a catastrophic event that kills 100 thousand people.

[Romulox]

105. I think it's a false dichotomy you posit. I find it the disparity in responses VERY interesting

however.

"If people shouldn't donate to other countries if they don't donate to Detroit"

Nobody is making this argument.

My basic question is why is it that mentioning domestic poverty in a thread like this so enrages so many?

It's not difficult to see--many of our "progressives" actually preach a sort of social-darwinism (e.g. "free trade", globalism, dog-eat-dog capitalism) at home, and something very different abroad...

[SemiCharmedQuark]

114. People aren't arguing that poverty in the United States is the fault of those who are poor.

They aren't arguing that poverty in the United States shouldn't be addressed. Comparing that to a catastrophe is not fair though.

Comparing this situation to Katrina or any other hurricane, earthquake, September 11, etc. would be fair. But for those things Americans DID open up their wallets as fast as they are now (probably even faster).

[reggie the dog]

106. people should donate as individuals where they want to

our governments should fight poverty and human suffering just as hard inside their countries as they do outside it.

[Fire1]

74. Pathetic post. Ignorant, too. n/t

[reggie the dog]

76. If I took out the bullshit about being mad about Haiti rebelling

would you think the same? I sometimes get angry, go off the deep end, and write or say really stupid shit and then when I actually think I am embarassed by what I thought and said earlier. Of course when I stop and think about it Haiti rebelled against imperialism 200 years ago, and that was a beautiful thing, so I should not be angry that my taxes pay to help former rebels if the French govt is not willing to help its own people too. That was a very stupid thing to say. The fact that they rebelled against the French showed that France was racist and did not give the same rights to non whites. It should never be used against the people of Haiti, like I said I typed an angry rant, angry at French politicians, without thinking.

[blondeatlast]

84. Someone upthread recommended stepping away from the keyboard. I do that frequently.

I've often realized I was going to post something that would be misunderstood or was even just plain stupid--and to my knowledge, I have no enemies on DU even among those I vehemently disagree with.

Like I say, I step away from the keyboard. Just sayin'.

[reggie the dog]

88. that can be good advice

but I was shown the really stupid shit I said about the rebellion by staying on. I was convince pretty quickly once my logic got the best of my emotions, but I think that I should probably step away when I see I am angry and ranting to avoid this in the first place.

[CreekDog]

87. You know how when you're stoned and think you are saying something profound

But everyone is laughing at you because you sound stupid?

:shrug:

(Yeah we help people...in this case unless you arwe without food and water get over it)

[reggie the dog]

95. I haven't smoked anything today, zilch

I also never said not to help Haiti, I just do not see why people care so much more about Haiti than they do about the poor in the USA. Go to the ghetto of any city in the USA and tell me there are not people living in despair, with no hope, in substandard housing, with lack of medical care, and shorter life expectancies. That stuff gets to me on a daily basis. Haiti is horrible, but I see horrible things all around me in France, in the USA. If only our people would be so willing to help their own less fortunate by chaning they sytem quite a bit I would not be so shocked when I see such a call for aid to Haiti.

[CreekDog]

100. Right now in Haiti is worse than ours or France's slums

without a system to provide shelter, food and water ASAP, millions face death within hours.

so that is different.

i agree we should do more for our poor and most people on DU support that as well.

but they aren't mutually exclusive and it's not as though we aren't providing any aid to our poor. The USA has a safety net with lots of holes and France has a better one. $100 million for Haiti is a fraction of what is spent on the poor here or in France.

and a disaster means you provide first you ask questions later. this is not the time to figure out what's fair or not --we just help.

it's *gauche* to gnash your teeth over what we are spending on Haiti right now. it really is.

[reggie the dog]

107. I gnash my teeth at the lack of

empathy I see within the USA and France, I wish we had the same empathy for the unfortunate here as we are now having for Haiti.

[hileeopnyn8d]

109. And I don't understand why you don't understand

that at this very moment, the reason everyone cares so much about the people in Haiti, is because they are DYING and trapped beneath the rubble of collapsed buildings.

We know what the approximate population was, we see how much damage there is, and we know that the death toll is going to be a number that is almost unfathomable. Possibly 50,000 or more people were killed in one day, and the others are without water and food.

[reggie the dog]

111. people have been freezing to death on the streets of our big cities

since what? November? why are we so callous to that? There is nothing wrong with caring about Haiti. Hell, it is normal to see suffering and to want it to end, but why is there not the same concern for homeless people freezing to death? or people not getting care for aids or cancer? or people killing their sick wife, shooting their horse, killig themselves at 69 years old, and then setting their house on fire the morning it was to be auctioned off?

[dionysus]

94. whoa. smoke a dooband reconsider that statement please.

[reggie the dog]

96. hash or not

I still dont get why people are so concerend with the deaths in Haiti, yet so unconcerned with the conditions for the poor in their own countries. Many of us here on DU probably care for both, but the general culture of France and the USA seems much more concerned about the Haitians than the poor here in France or in the USA.

[dionysus]

97. people take note of things highlighted 24/7 on the news. they don't see their own homeless on tv so

they don't think about them. i think that's the gist of it.

[reggie the dog]

98. I think you are on to something there.

[G_j]

102. answer:

[reggie the dog]

110. Doh,

the USA and France, my 2 countries, have way too much military pie.....

[lefty2000]

108. Chicken Feed

33 billion dollars one time is insignificant compared to Health Care costs. Not helping Haiti would not increase the availability of health care in the US.

[reggie the dog]

113. 33 billion would

largely fix the debt of my public health care system in France, then the right wing govt wouldnt keep saying "see its in debt, we should reform it and make people pay more when they go to the doctor"?

[mkultra]

112. i say with confidence that you are the biggest moron i have ever known

that is all.

[SeattleGirl]

116. Yes, a lot of people, myself included, have no health care insurance.

But we also aren't living in cities flattened by earthquakes. We aren't suffering a water shortage. We aren't in desperate straits. Not like the Hatian people are.

Sorry, reggie, but on this one, you ARE a dog.

[madokie]

120. wrong argument in the wrong place

take that somewhere else

[JI7]

121. WOW

what you said is just so fucked up

[kayla9170]

124. Unrec.............

And double :puke: :puke: