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ChoppinBroccoli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 11:53 PM
Original message
The Propaganda Is Taking Hold
Tonight my wife came home after spending the evening with her parents (her father is one of "those" old people, who does nothing but watch Faux News all day and then get upset about everything they say because he believes it--he also believes that Bush was the best President this country ever had, just so you know where he's coming from), and out of the clear blue sky, turns to me and asks, "Is it true that for a family that makes $80,000 a year, healthcare is going to cost $10,000 a year? Because I don't think we're going to be able to afford that. Is that really Obama's Healthcare plan?"

My only response was, "Let me guess where you heard that."

Let's just say this isn't the first time I/We have had to endure the "Fox News said.........." reports from her father. He's never gotten over the fact that, in his eyes, I turned his only daughter (an ex-Republican) into an evil liberal (a position my wife finds incredibly insulting, since it essentially means that he believes she's not smart enough to make up her OWN mind on these issues, and must just be following me blindly), and so he thinks if he constantly attacks our beliefs (using only what he hears on Faux News, of course), he can change our minds. I used to debate the stupid shit he spouted, and since he's one of these people who's unable to have a civil discussion if you disagree with him, it ended up with us storming out of the house with hateful epithets being hurled at us from inside. Since then, I've given up trying to point out the stupidity of his beliefs and have just opted for the "don't even discuss it with him" route, in the interest of keeping the family peace. But now it's becoming clear that he knows he'll get nowhere with me, so he's going to throw some shit at my wife while I'm not around to see if any of it will stick.

This isn't the first time my wife has come talking about some stupid shit her father said during her visit. He's even got that healthcare chart that Boner unveiled on the Senate floor printed out and hanging on the refrigerator. So I responded by printing out that spoof chart someone on this board made immediately after and hanging it on MY refrigerator. Apparently, whatever money the health insurance industry has paid to spread fear and propaganda about healthcare reform is having its effect. He actually believes that this healthcare reform will bankrupt the country (although he doesn't ever take much convincing--if Faux News says it, it's gospel to him).
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. Clearly you havent been reading the moaning here today
Edited on Thu Dec-17-09 11:56 PM by Egnever
Obama has betrayed us dont ya know. The propaganda is doing wonders all over the place.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Oh, precisely!
Couldn't have said it better.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Of course you could have
You always say it better.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Not always ...
... and not here.

You said it all. :patriot:
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
16. Say it ain't so.
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 07:48 AM by sendero
... tell me you don't support this abortion of a corporate giveaway "reform".

If you do I'd love to see one of your fantastic essays. I don't think you can convince me but I'm listening.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's not taking hold, it's embedded. I think there is no cure.
My bro has the same disease. It's not fixable and not worth trying.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
4. I don't understand your post
A family making $80k a year will likely pay over $10k a year in insurance. That's less than $1000 a month and most families who aren't getting insurance through work are likely paying more than that already.

Rates going up when insurance companies get their mandate is sadly predictable.
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Journeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. $10,000 a year? I'd be ecstatic if my healthcare costs were so cheap. . .

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SB37 Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. Is that really true?!
Holy shit! I wasn't strapped enough! That's more than DOUBLE what I pay now for my family....
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
5. I swear Capn Sunshine's post said the subsidized annual cost was $9000.
The true cost was closer to $20,000. That was for a family of 4 making $54,000 IIRC.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
6. Wouldn't your wife's father be on Medicare?
Just asking, as you called him old.
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ChoppinBroccoli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. I Think He Might Be
He's 69 years old, so certainly he's eligible. I never hear him talk about Medicare, so I don't know for sure. A couple of things I DO know about him, though: he's got more money than he knows what to do with (he retired years ago after working for--get this--the State of Ohio Health Dept., and gets a monster retirement check every month from them), has had many medical procedures over the years (including a knee replacement over the summer), and never complains about his own health care. Come to think of it, I may have overheard him talking about Medicare paying for part of his various medical procedures recently.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. If he's 69, he's on Medicare. Could be a good question to ask him.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
9. Is he wrong?
(And my husband and I, self-employed, pay 12,000 a year for insurance not including our copays and deductables.)

Here is Marcy Wheelers two scenarios of what The Health Insurance Protection Act would cost:
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/12/16/the-mybara... /


Im going to do two scenarios one for someone just above 300% who will receive subsidies and have a premium limit, and one for someone just over 400%. While that artificially calculates the number for those who would be in the worst case scenario, as far as benefits (meaning they make just enough to miss out on some subsidies), it does give a basic idea of what this will do to middle class families (though it is inaccurate in that those over 400% of poverty have no cap on premiums, so those numbers could be higher). Since subsidies are figured on silver plans which allow actuarial values of 70%, this is what might happen to a family incurring around $39,666 in medical costs over the year, in which case they would pay the full out-of-pocket costs for their income level.

301% of Poverty Level: $66,370

Federal Taxes (estimate from this page, includes FICA): $8,628 (13% of income)

State Taxes (using MI rates on $30,000 of income): $1,305 (2% of income)

Food (using low-cost USDA plan for family of four): $9,065 (14% of income)

Home (assume a straight 30% of income): $19,275 (30% of income)

Health Care: $14,477 ($7,973 out-of-pocket + 9.8% of income; totals 22% of income)

Total: $52,750 (79% of income)

Remainder for all other expenses (including education, clothing, existing debt, transportation, etc.): $13,620 (or 21% of income)


401% of Poverty Level: $88,420

Federal Taxes (really rought estimate based on this page, includes FICA): $13,263 (15% of income)

State Taxes (using MI rates on $45,000 of income): $1,957 (2% of income)

Food (using low-cost USDA plan for family of four): $9,065 (10% of income)

Home (assume a straight 30% of income): $26,526 (30% of income)

Health care: $20,565 ($11,900 out-of-pocket + 9.8% of incomethough note there is no limit on premiums for this income level, so this could be higher; totals 23% of income)

Total: $71,376 (80% of income)

Remainder for all other expenses (including education, clothing, existing debt, transportation, etc.): $17,044 (or 19% of income)

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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. ont know but the CBO seems to think he will be better off
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/11/cbo...


In a letter to Senator Reid on November 20, the Congressional Budget Office (the official government scoring agency) reported that they estimated the cost of an individual low-cost plan in the exchange to be $5200 in 2016. This is a plan with an actuarial value (roughly, the share of expenses for a given population covered by insurance) of 70%. In their most recent communication with Congress, CBO also projected that, absent reform, the cost of an individual policy in the non-group market would be $5500 for a plan with an actuarial value of 60%. This implies that the same plan that cost $5500 without reform would cost $4460 with reform, or almost 20% less. ...

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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Your grandfather said family.
The CBO addresses the costs for individual coverage.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 07:50 AM
Response to Original message
17. Why Single Payer, Public Option & Buy In Died...
The right wing hate machine got the jump on this issue...it wasn't hard...just make a lot of noise and say no. The healthcare fiasco was ideal for their liars and astroturfers as it played into many old memes that have been drilled into wingnut heads for over 30 years. On the other side was...Nothing. While the teabaggers got the teevee spotlight that led to a lot of lies becoming "fact", proponents for single payer and other alternatives were either too busy or didn't want to "lower themselves" to counter all this misinformation. It failed.

Faux and the rushpublicans know they have free reign to lie with no need to ever be held accountable. It's their standard technique of putting out a lie and by the time its refuted it's too late...the propaganda has taken hold. It's time Democrats realize this and start to develop far better communications and people to counter the lies. It's the one who gets their message out first that wins these days...all else doesn't matter.
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