Why not wait and see what's in the FINAL bill?

[iceman66]

Sure, the Senate looks like it is going to pass a shitty bill, but there's still a chance for significant improvements to be made in conference committee.

We really need to know what will be in the final bill before we know if it will be something that is worth passing.

[Faryn Balyncd]

1. because then it will be too late

[iceman66]

2. So better to "give up" now before the process is even concluded?

That is what many here seem to be advocating.

[Faryn Balyncd]

15. Nope. Demonstrate that we will not be played for suckers, & keep fighting for real reform, which...

...won't be advanced by a pseudo-"reform".

[rucky]

3. How do you see this being reconciled with the House version?

It's not even recognizable anymore.

Who's on the joint committee? Who do we need to try and influence for this outcome?

I'm ready to put my energy to good use, but I won't wait on the sidelines and trust these buffoons to do the right thing.

K&R, by the way - for refocusing.

[iceman66]

8. Once the Senate passes some sort of bill, that should all become clear.

[el_bryanto]

4. Quote by Jay Rockefeller

"500 things and you take one out and say, well, without that is this really reform. Could it have been better? Yeah. But it could've been so much worse if we'd just decided not to do anything because we didn't get everything we wanted."

He might be right. http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/rockefeller-its-still-real-reform-without-medicare-buy-in.php?ref=fpblg

Bryant

[iceman66]

7. He may be right, he may be wrong.

My point is that we won't KNOW until we see the final bill.

I have to think it will be at least somewhat better than the Senate version.

[Winterblues]

13. Yes you are right but is not what was promised..

Universal Health Care was what was promised. Lowering of costs and inclusion of all not now included. We will see if those things are in the final bill.

[el_bryanto]

16. I hope they are.

We'll have to see. Then again this might not be the last healthcare bill.

Bryant

[iceman66]

22. We do not have a strong enough majority for that.

We cannot insist on an 'all or nothing' approach with so many psuedo-Democrats in both houses of Congress.

Any bill that significantly lowers costs and expands coverage will be a step in the right direction, and should be considered a victory, even if it is not the Universal Health Care we all want.

[Raineyb]

31. That's easy for him to say isn't it?

He HAS health insurance and he's not going to have to worry about going without is he?

[el_bryanto]

33. I wonder if Dennis Kucinich has health insurance? n/t

[Tailormyst]

5. Because letting them know how angry we are just might change things

Waiting until it's done and decided to voice our opinions does nothing. By the time it goes to the floor they already know how they are voting. The "debates" are nothing but a show.

[iceman66]

10. Letting them know your angry is fine,

but this 'I give up" mentality only helps the insurance industry.

They WANT us to give up!!!

[Tailormyst]

12. They need to know that if they do indeed cave and pass this Ins giveaway

at the expense of the people that many of us who knocked on doors, made calls, donated money, etc. will walk away in disgust. Our politicians no longer fear we the people, they use us and they laugh at us, they need to fear us again. They need to understand they work for us, or we don't do any work for them.

[luckyleftyme2]

20. lets tell the truth for a change

here is what will happen abd it will only take 50 votes to pass it!
Edited on Mon Dec-14-09 09:17 AM by DeltaLitProf
Correct me if I'm wrong here:

If Reid removes the compromise from the current HCR bill and removes the public option . . . and if the Dems in the Senate all vote the resulting HCR out of the Senate, it goes to the conference committee to be reconciled with the House bill.

Then in the conference, let's say the terms of the House bill are superimposed onto the bare bones bill passed by the Senate.

When the reconciled bill is submitted for a vote in both houses, THERE IS NO ABILITY TO FILIBUSTER. Fifty-one votes wins in the Senate. Joe Lieberman and the other DINOS would be irrelevant.

So to say that Lieberman can stop real Health Care Reform on his own is to engage in untruth. What would stop it would be if Reid decides to stop trying after hearing of Lieberman's filibuster threat. If he refuses to try to pass a bare bones HCR bill, HE would be the one to sink health care reform. Since the option to add the goodies during the conference committee is always there.
this seems to be the way to go!
all for show!

[iceman66]

23. Thank you!

This is precisely what I'm getting at.

They have to pass SOMETHING in the Senate, even if its crap, to make it to conference.

[Tailormyst]

30. self-delete

forget it.

[TheCoxwain]

6. If they arent going the reconciliation route .. you are welcome to hold that bag of shit

[niyad]

9. are we to sit silently by, hoping that if we are good little children, they will be nice to us?

[iceman66]

17. No, but at the same time we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater

If the final bill contains some meaningful reforms, even if it isn't everything we want - I think we can take that as a given, actually - then we shouldn't be so quick to throw the President and the party under the bus.

Remember the corporate media and the opponents of reform WANT this thing to be perceived as a failure. They WANT Democrats to desert Obama, because the only way the Republicans win in '10 and '12 is if we do not show up to vote. So far the strategy seems to be working.

[debbierlus]

11. How's that strategy been working so far?

Cross your fingers and hope.

The dems are going to screw us HARD.

But, maybe that is what this country needs. A five alarm WAKE UP CALL.

[luckyleftyme2]

28. well debbie

you guys were in the drivers seat for the majority of the last 32 years- and you sure blew it!
ya ripped of the middle class-took most of the workers benefits and damn near bankrupted the country!
your last hope was a governor from Alaska that didn't believe in global warming while her legislature were trying to find ways to raise money to protect infrastructure that was on permafrost that was melting;and a senator from Arizona who flipped and flop with each poll the media presented!
we would be in the sewer with out a paddle if the electorate listened to you in 08!
Ur opinion is like Ur thoughts-better kept to yourself!

[laughingliberal]

14. Did you miss the reports that there, likely, will not be a conference?

There is a better than good chance they are going to ping pong this bill and bypass the conference. I have tried to hold out hope at each step that something would happen to get something into this bill that would prevent it from being the working and middle class soaking it is now. At each step the bill has become more industry friendly and more of a screwing of the American people.

[iceman66]

19. I really can't see this POS Senate bill even passing the House.

If they do that, all the naysayers will be proven right, but again we will have to wait and see.

[luckyleftyme2]

21. it will go to conference

Edited on Mon Dec-14-09 09:17 AM by DeltaLitProf
Correct me if I'm wrong here:

If Reid removes the compromise from the current HCR bill and removes the public option . . . and if the Dems in the Senate all vote the resulting HCR out of the Senate, it goes to the conference committee to be reconciled with the House bill.

Then in the conference, let's say the terms of the House bill are superimposed onto the bare bones bill passed by the Senate.

When the reconciled bill is submitted for a vote in both houses, THERE IS NO ABILITY TO FILIBUSTER. Fifty-one votes wins in the Senate. Joe Lieberman and the other DINOS would be irrelevant.

So to say that Lieberman can stop real Health Care Reform on his own is to engage in untruth. What would stop it would be if Reid decides to stop trying after hearing of Lieberman's filibuster threat. If he refuses to try to pass a bare bones HCR bill, HE would be the one to sink health care reform. Since the option to add the goodies during the conference committee is always there.
this seems to be the way to go!
all for show!

[laughingliberal]

26. Has the House decided they will not allow the ping pong? nt

[luckyleftyme2]

24. it will go to conference

Edited on Mon Dec-14-09 09:17 AM by DeltaLitProf
Correct me if I'm wrong here:

If Reid removes the compromise from the current HCR bill and removes the public option . . . and if the Dems in the Senate all vote the resulting HCR out of the Senate, it goes to the conference committee to be reconciled with the House bill.

Then in the conference, let's say the terms of the House bill are superimposed onto the bare bones bill passed by the Senate.

When the reconciled bill is submitted for a vote in both houses, THERE IS NO ABILITY TO FILIBUSTER. Fifty-one votes wins in the Senate. Joe Lieberman and the other DINOS would be irrelevant.

So to say that Lieberman can stop real Health Care Reform on his own is to engage in untruth. What would stop it would be if Reid decides to stop trying after hearing of Lieberman's filibuster threat. If he refuses to try to pass a bare bones HCR bill, HE would be the one to sink health care reform. Since the option to add the goodies during the conference committee is always there.
this seems to be the way to go!
all for show!

[SteelPenguin]

18. Where have I heard that before

Hey don't worry about the shit that comes out of committee, when it hits the floor of the house it'll get better.

Hey don't worry about the shit that comes out of the Senate committee when it hits the floor of the Senate it'll be better.

Hey don't worry about what the House passed, it'll get fixed up by the Senate.

Hey don't worry about what the Senate passes, it'll get fixed in conference committee.

Color me un-hopefull.

[luckyleftyme2]

25. yeppers the right lost

Edited on Mon Dec-14-09 09:17 AM by DeltaLitProf
Correct me if I'm wrong here:

If Reid removes the compromise from the current HCR bill and removes the public option . . . and if the Dems in the Senate all vote the resulting HCR out of the Senate, it goes to the conference committee to be reconciled with the House bill.

Then in the conference, let's say the terms of the House bill are superimposed onto the bare bones bill passed by the Senate.

When the reconciled bill is submitted for a vote in both houses, THERE IS NO ABILITY TO FILIBUSTER. Fifty-one votes wins in the Senate. Joe Lieberman and the other DINOS would be irrelevant.

So to say that Lieberman can stop real Health Care Reform on his own is to engage in untruth. What would stop it would be if Reid decides to stop trying after hearing of Lieberman's filibuster threat. If he refuses to try to pass a bare bones HCR bill, HE would be the one to sink health care reform. Since the option to add the goodies during the conference committee is always there.
this seems to be the way to go!
all for show!

[Faryn Balyncd]

29. Calling this a "bare bones bill" which will have all the details fixed in conference is a fairy tale

[backscatter712]

27. We know most of what's going in it. Still, pass the damned thing.

I know that pragmatism is unpopular, but I've got to say it.

Killing this bill will be shooting ourselves in the foot.

We damned well need to negotiate some improvements in conference, but at the same time, we need to remember that we've still got reforms like the ban on pre-existing conditions clauses, the ban on rescissions of the sick, subsidies, the Medicaid expansion, etc. fucking etc.

Ezra Klein was dead on when he said that the bill, even without the public option, would save 150,000 lives over ten years.

Now's the time when we have to grow up, swallow our pride, and do what has to be done.

[AllentownJake]

32. Why not wait till the signing ceremony to complain

Cheerleading idiots