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How many of you are pissed off at Obama for escalating the stupid war?

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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:38 AM
Original message
How many of you are pissed off at Obama for escalating the stupid war?
I am. I cannot think of a single reason why this might be a good idea. In fact, I can only think of very negative reasons for escalation of the idiotic war in Afghanistan. All I can figure is, it's all for huge profits for the asshole branch of our government.

Mr. Obama, I voted for you, not with visions of a shining city on the hill, not with blinders on, not with rose colored glasses, but because you kept saying it's time for a change.

Now I'm just pissed off at you, and I'm not afraid to say it.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:41 AM
Response to Original message
1. For profits and politics.
And, death left in the wake. I am sickened by it. How many more have to die for a failed war?
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Many assume there will be a happy ending, but there won't.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
119. Afghanistan NEVER has a happy ending.
Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
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SnakeEyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #119
193. Afghanistan hasn't had a happy ending.
You're assuming that the future will always mirror the past. Learn and a future outcome can be different.

Even the Lions win a football game every now and then.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #193
195. Let me rephrase: Afghanistan has never had a happy ending.
It's like the old adage: a broken clock is right at least two times a day.

No it isn't. It's still broken and nonfunctional. It only appears right twice a day.

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TK421 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
219. Say hello to the next Vietnam....cause that's what we're looking at
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #219
343. Perpetual war chasing terrorists when we lived with Russian nukes for 30yrs-BOO
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #343
344. War profiteering not democracy.It's destroying the USA.No one wants to believe it.
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SergeStorms Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #344
380. Hey.......
death and destruction are our major export. Just think what the unemployment rate would be if the military industrial complex came grinding to a halt.

But I'm willing to chance it.

Our country lost it's moral compass about 60 years ago. I fear we'll never get it back. There's just too much damned money to be made (for some) using the broken compass.
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azmesa207 Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
204. Afghanistan war make
Obama a hypocrite and as he made a big deal out of Clinton voting for the Iraq war and that how he won Iowa .So now you people that called Clinton names because she didn't say she was sorry enough to suit you got what you voted for just another Bush lite .
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AusDem Donating Member (219 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #204
387. does it? didn't he say he would focus on afghanistan?
i don't agree with the decision, think its a mistake, but i'm pretty sure he's not a hypocrite. never said that he wouldn't have gone to afghanistan.........
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Naked_Ape Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
254. Sorry, He did the right thing.
I don't envy the mess he was left to deal with, a lost war, wrecked economy. But seriously, in your heart of hearts, you know what would happen if we just walked away. There is no good answer. At least this wasn't the wrong one.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #254
339. Sure it was .A nation of tribes about to become a civil war.Eternal war chasing 100 al qaeda
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #339
341. You know nothing about it but just don't want to admit Obama is fucking up
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #341
342. $1/mil per soldier per yr.=30,000 men for 2yrs=$60 thousand million he could drop on them and no dea
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #342
360. Don't forget the cost of the troops already there staying too.
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emald Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #254
345. what would happen if we walked away???
What ?? Please explain this oh so earth shattering event, which only you seem to be able to foretell, that is worse than the killing of innocent civilians right now? Heart of hearts, what the fuck is that? Fairytale land? Jeez, like we have all the answers.
A-pak has always, ALWAYS, been an armpit of a place with near neanderthals clubbing each other over supposed differences. But, oh my, if WE, the almighty fine United States of Military Profits, were to walk away than the universe might explode. He did the right thing, the right thing for the MIC.

Fool.

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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #254
358. Yeah it will happen now or 3 years and $150B later
The only difference is more American deaths, and the troops will have a weaker country to return to.
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Sherman A1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #254
385. Agreed & Well Said
I am not pleased at the need to send more troops and more money, but I am pleased that we are sending "A Plan", which has been sorely lacking.
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greyghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
367. All wars are fought for money - Socrates
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. Here. Time for another march? nt
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. we must!
nt
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
58. oh for sure, we can't let this go on forever.
enough with war!!!!
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
71. Absolutely
We must do something! I sent an email to the White House yesterday, I guess that is a start.
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obliviously Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #71
314. No not a dreaded email! How could you?
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MissDeeds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
148. I'm ready n/t
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
211. yes
please.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:43 AM
Response to Original message
3. We wanted a FDR...we got a LBJ.
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 07:02 AM by YOY
Pissed isn't the word...disappointed and disillusioned.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #3
25. Do you remember this?


Does Obama?

I'll never forget, the picture of a broken man.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #3
38. Wait a sec
I wouldn't call him an LBJ until he accomplishes something. LBJ got Medicare passed. How's that health care reform of Obama's doing??
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. True...but Medicare is not what he is remembered for.
n.t.
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #40
240. And that's a damn shame because every senior and the children of
every senior owe a huge debt of gratitude to Johnson for getting Medicare passed. Imagine if seniors or their adult children were stuck with their Medical bills. Only the very richest wouldn't go bankrupt.

The lousy Vietnam War will always be Johnson's legacy, and it's a pity, because on domestic issues he was one of the greats.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #240
255. Exactly!
I totally agree. I am now caring for my 87 year old father, and Lyndon Johnson's Medicare is a godsend. With Daddy's supplemental insurance... I had no out of pocket expenses for a recent hospitalization. NONE, ZIP, NADA. I hope I live to get that kind of Medicare. Real health care reform with a real Medicare-like public option is what Obama should be doing with the money he's about to commit to that empire-busting sink hole known as Afghanistan...

Anyway, thanks for the reminder LibDemAlways. And thank you, LBJ; your legacy for me will always be Civil Rights and Medicare!
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TK421 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #38
221. +1
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
47. I'm afraid we didn't even get LBJ - given the trash that is "healthcare reform."
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #47
103. Health care Deform, rather.

Given that it only strengthens the position of parasitic for-profit corporations and amounts to a massive regressive back door tax on struggling middle/working class.

It's NOT a step towards true Universal Health Care, it's a step backwards. Just another way to screw over an average American and enrich corporations. More upward transfer of wealth, Wall Street bailout style. x(
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #103
108. What you said.
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irislake Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #103
287. Agree --- you are so screwn.
Also LBJ apart from Vietnam was a good president. Obama isn't going to do you any good at all.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
117. Sorry, but LBJ actually DID some things
Sure, he escalated Vietnam, but we also got Civil Rights, the Great Society and Thurgood Marshall on the Supreme Court. In your wildest dreams, can you imagine Obama doing even one thing at that level of progressive leadership? I can't.
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apnu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #117
160. True but LBJ didn't have Pelosi and Reid selling him up the river either
Plus LBJ had 4 years do do all that, Obama's been in the oval office for not even one yet. Bring this back in 4 years and we can compare, otherwise this is pure speculation.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #160
189. Oh please. LBJ had the Dixiecrats to contend with.
And Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act on July 2nd, 1964 -- after only 8 months in office and DURING a presidential campaign.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
217. Yeah - Obama is busy carpet bombing Afghanistan and sending in 500,000 troops
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 06:29 PM by jpak
and drafting kids and spraying Agent Orange all fucking over the place.

The historical similarities are just unfucking canny!!!111

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DumbBassRepublicans Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #217
312. Due to Dubya....!!!
GOOD point, jpak....

Funny, too...!!!

But I guess the results WERE predictable, when you took over from
george w bush - the MOST PATHETIC, MOST INEPT, MOST INCOMPETENT,
MOST DISHONEST, STUPIDEST person EVER to occupy the Oval Office...!!!!

He was SURELY the WORST president EVER...!!!

Oh-oh...!!!

I HOPE I didn't speak too soon....

Especially with Palin lurking out there in the Alaskan wilderness...!!!

LOL..!!!!!

:)



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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #217
346. Vietnam started with smaller troop increases
And the carpet bombing didn't start until later. You've got nothing to be smug about.
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
222. Those Two Words Are The Ones I've Used MOST Lately AND I Can
honestly say that I don't want to. I can't say I felt that Obama could clean up the mess that was dumped into his lap very easily or quickly, but I NEVER thought he was going to be so Center/Right as he seems to have become. I NEVER felt he was a LIBERAL at any time and knew campaign rhetoric is ALWAYS used.

We worked hard to elect Democrats so that it might make it easier for him to govern with a stronger hand. By holding the cards (so to speak) he had some extra opportunity to push a stronger Progressive agenda. I could live with not seeing a great deal of Liberalism, but I'm really upset that what I'm seeing is a lurch to the right.

People say he's calm and cool, but for me it's coming across as being much too accommodating and one would have thought by now he should have realized that the OTHER side wants nothing to do with working with him or Democrats. I just wanted to be part of fighting the good fight for "we the people" and I'm not seeing it, just NOT seeing it!

What he's going to say tonight is almost the same thing LBJ & Nixon told us a long time ago. And for those of us who remember, that didn't turn out so well back then either! And no, I don't know exactly what he's going to say, but I'd bet money that it will sound a lot like it!


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scentopine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
275. We have far, far less than LBJ. -nt
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
4. I feel some sort of need for a time of deep mourning
very dark days indeed. This president has now proved beyond a doubt that he is not a great leader. He has sunk the knife further in the hearts of peace loving people around the world.
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I'm beginning to think he's 'one of them'
As in imperialist Americans.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
63. I think that is obvious.
I'm beginning to think he's 'one of them'.

Will he enjoy being called "The War President"? because he certainly is now. x(
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #63
88. yeah--now! However, the alternative would have been far worse
Let's continue to let them all know this is not acceptable--even though they have a boot on our necks.
It's the least we can do
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
81. That became clear when he began surrounding himself with DLCers
as soon as he was elected.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #81
84. Sadly, yes.
Chief of staff pick was the first "oh shit" moment.
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #84
115. Exactly! For me, too.
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #84
224. Don't Forget Geithner Too... A Fine Mess We Find Ourselves In, It Seems! n/t
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #224
264. And Arne Duncan. nt
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #84
262. same here
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seabeckind Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #81
171. Ditto. n/t
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #81
325. And it kind of makes you wonder who surrounds whom?
Did Obama elope into the White House with the DLC and Wall Street --

Or was he already a captive of DLC and Wall Street?

Anyway -- what's Plan B?

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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
197. "BRING EM ON" shouted the PRESENT OCCUPANT
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
6. Here
I am so dreading this speech tonight.
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I no longer feel like he's on our side.
Anger, disappointment and dread all around.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. Not on this issue
I still think he might do some good things. But not in Afghanistan.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #6
61. me too,
I just fired off an e-mail to him and saying why does he have to give this speech at WestPoint, seems Bush like to me. His approval ratings are going to tank.
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MissDeeds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
153. Same here
I get knots in my stomach thinking about it. What a disappointment.
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monmouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
10. Before you start twisting that knife any further into the President's back,
how about listening to the speech first?????? You're clueless as to what he's going to say, guessing, dooming and glooming. I have a feeling he knows what he's doing a hell of a lot better than you do.
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Escalation is indefensible.
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MissDeeds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
155. + 10
Most here would be screaming their heads off if * or McCain was pulling this. :thumbsdown:
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
300. +11
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
326. +12
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leeroysphitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
36. Oh stop it. Please. For the love of god will you people please stop the cheer leading BS?
An escalation is an escalation. What frickin difference can the pretty speech make?

We know President Obama is an effective public speaker. The question is when does he become an effective Democrat?
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monmouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #36
46. What cheerleading BS???? I'm just saying listen to the speech first
before the gnashing and wringing of hands...
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:22 AM
Original message
Quite frankly, I am SICK of the pretty speeches. Followed by bullshit ACTION.
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salguine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
54. +25
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
74. +1 What's next? "Let's see how history writes about the war?" n/t
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
228. Pretty Speeches, Pretty Speeches... More Speeches! Reality Can't Be
swept away by Pretty Speeches! More War is MORE WAR, and this country needs so much MORE WORK HERE!!

Screw the speeches, words are ONLY WORDS!
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #46
82. You know, I only read transcripts of his speeches
these days. I find his dramatics to be less than honest, and usually self serving. So it is much easier to read what he is saying than glean it from his sermon. I dislike the manipulative style of his presentations. The use of language in unclear, misdirecting ways is not amusing to me.
I say no one should listen to him, we should all, always read what he said, not listen to his wee one man play. Plus in this case, he is using the troops as a backdrop or set piece and that is always a thing I avoid, from Bush, the other Bush, Clinton, Reagan, all of them. Speaking to me with the troops as a shield is just sort of naff. So by reading I do not give him what is not his, the troops, the lights, the music, and leave only the words. If they can not stand alone, they are without value anyway.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #82
120. Completely agree.
What he says is much more important than how he says it.

What he does is much more important than what he says.

What he's doing is awful.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #82
122. Damn that's well said.
There are certain politicians I cannot listen to because I can hear the lie beneath the words. It's actually unbearable. Obama used to be tolerable but now his "great oration" will be read like the others. nt
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #82
127. Good post.
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #46
203. Fine, listen. And then pull out Bush's speeches for justification of
his wars and look at the similarities.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #46
327. Forget the speeches . . . focus on what's actually being done . . . !!!
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #36
49. +1
RL
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #36
86. Amen. nt
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #36
125. +1
The question is when does he become an effective Democrat?

:applause:
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #36
131. I'm wondering when he's going to start becoming a Democrat.
Bailouts for bankers, very little leadership on health care reform (which looks like it's going to be a giveaway to insurance companies), an ineffective "stimulus," and now more war......

If this is the agenda of a Democratic administration, this country is in very very deep shit.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #131
200. I'm wondering if he ever was a Democrat.
:shrug:
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #200
232. I've Had That Thought A Lot... What Shall We Do??? n/t
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #232
328. We should work on a Plan B . . . !!!
Doing the same thing we've been doing over and over only gets us and the Democratic

Party moved to the RIGHT -- !!!

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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #232
362. The only sane thing to do is to fire every incumbent who isn't a fighting progressive
Talking progressives aren't. If we had some progressives with the conviction to do what is necessary, as the Right Wingers do, we'd get some accommodation too. I have a dream that the '10 elections will be the last time Progressives are taken for granted, or aren't we fed up yet?
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #10
83. There's no doubt he'll make another pretty speech,
but there's no way in hell he can justify continuing the occupation of Afghanistan. It was wrong when Bush did it; it's wrong when he does it. It's his war now.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
109. Actually, you got that completely backwards.

It is Obama who's backstabbed us repeatedly and now is twisting that knife in our backs.

And they are not done yet; wait for the "Entitlement Reform" and cuts on domestic "spending"; hold on to your seats little people.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
134. If Obama told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it ?
Because that's basically what he is doing right now with his current strategy.
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AndrewP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #134
212. Exactly
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
182. Thank you - that's what I have been thinking all week.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
207. There is nothing that he can say the will justify escalation.
Period. end of story.
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TK421 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #207
226. Bet you $1000.00 someone here will come up with something.....
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #226
363. We heard the speech, pay up
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TK421 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #363
388. Oh....I'm terribly sorry! I shouldn't have placed that bet...you see, I'm unemployed!!!
damn me...I almost left out that important fact!!! :D Sorry! I really hate to put a fellow American out of a $1000.00 bet but hey....shit happens, right?
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liquid diamond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #207
284. Not even Al-Qaeda being a direct threat
to America? Thank God you people aren't in office.
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #284
364. Al-Qaeda ain't shit.
Cheney's fucking boogymen. There are probably a couple of hundred hard core lunatics who would love to wreak havoc.

If our intelligence agencies weren't useless fucking idiots, we could figure out who they are and plan surgical strikes to eliminate the threat.

Massive occupations and civilian slaughter is counter productive to say the least.

I'm not afraid of fucking Al Qaeda. They can kiss my fucking ass. It's sad to see this whole country full of fucking wussies, shaking in their little booties, scared shitless of a small bunch of assholes.

The USA is nothing more than a third world shithole and a hoax. I'm certainly never going to vote again and likely will be getting the fuck out of this idiotic country.
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
285. I did listen to his speech
and a few times I wanted to laugh out loud (better than crying). If I had a drink, I could've played the * drinking game every time 9/11 was mentioned. The Taliban is now merging as al quaeda. Remember * met with the taliban before 9/11 and apparently gave them money to not grow poppies. At least that's what we were told. The taliban told * that they would give us OBL if we had proof that he was the one who committed 9/11. Why didn't we take them up on their offer?

What I saw tonight was an articulate *. I laughed when he said that we weren't in Iraq and Afghanistan for their resources. And it was truly hilarious talking about democracy building when we have aided and helped elect some of the most ruthless right wing wacko dictators. Hell, wasn't Karzai (Karzai of Unocal?) appointed by the * administration?

What I see is that the MIC has a strong hold on this country, and has had it for a long time. We just shovel our money and our family's lives serving their interests. Not our interests, but theirs. Maybe there should be a draft-then all people will be more involved and interested in what's really going down over there. We have soldiers that have served over three tours-they're exhausted. But, one thing they learned from Vietnam, is that an all volunteer military will get ya less protests. And as people lose more decent jobs, guess where they're going?

With privatizing more aspects of the military, corporate soldiers who apparently don't know about the Geneva Convention , corporations doing shoddy building, giving our soldiers tainted water and substandard food, forcing labor by gun point--yeah, this is a most corrupt war.
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irislake Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
291. Don't need to listen.
Wake up and smell the coffee.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
336. Obama, the DLC, Wall Street + insurance companies have been "twisting the knife" ...!!!
What can you say when the final punch line is "I'm continuing the war and escalating it"?

"Doom and gloom?" Is that some cruel and stupid joke?

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Xicano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:51 AM
Response to Original message
11. I just finished rereading "Confessions of an Economic Hitman"
And I look at Obama and his cabinet full of lobbyist and wall street'ers and I have to shake my head in disgust.


:(
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. An excellent book. Obama's cabinet is not a surprise, though, not for
those of us who were paying attention. We all wanted him to be more than he is.
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AndrewP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #19
52. There is an interesting article about this in the current Rolling Stone Magazine
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
24. Great! But in his other business Perkins claims he can turn himself into animals, trees, cure cancer
Afaik, Perkins lost all credibility when he claimed to be able to turn himself into a jaguar and cure cancer.

When he's not an "economic hitman" he's a "shapeshifting shaman." Now, I don't believe either.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. he's a trot, too. & a millionaire.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #24
301. And every time someone mentions Perkins book, you bring that up
as if it had any relevancy to what he wrote about. It doesn't. How about refuting what he wrote about if you can? He's certainly not been discredited by anyone with any credibility so far. In fact he's been backed up by many very credible people.

We all know that he has spiritual beliefs. Obama believes, eg, that a man was able to rise from the dead but what does any of that have to do with their politics?

I think this is only the second or third time I've come across you in a thread and here you are like a broken record, repeating the same old story as if it meant anything.

I guess instead of discussing why I don't agree with Obama's Afghanistan policies I should just say 'you know that guy believes that people can rise from the dead' from now on. it would be about as relevant as your lame attempt to change the subject.
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dgibby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #301
333. Thank you!
Great retort!
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #301
370. A guy who says he can turn into a lizard has little credibility on other issues
Edited on Wed Dec-02-09 01:29 AM by HamdenRice
And, moreover, I knew lots of people in the international development bank sector and never once heard the term, "economic hitman" which he says was common. He also doesn't seem to know the difference between the CIA, which among other things, enforced economic arrangements, and the NSA which strictly does signals intelligence (international wiretapping).

My guess is that Perkins initially wrote the book as a novel and someone convinced him to market it as non-fiction.

Religious people by contrast talk about ancient unbelievable legends. I don't think Obama says he can turn himself into a lizard or raise himself from the dead.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
323. Don't stop there . . . start working on Plan B . . . what is it?
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:52 AM
Response to Original message
13. Me.
If he does this, he will be another LBJ and a ONE Termer.

And that will be GOOD - because he deserves only ONE Term if he does this...

Unfortunately, we'll be stuck with another Nixon/bush*...
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Loge23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
14. Riches to rags
...and that's not just a commentary on the economy. It is a commentary on Obama's fortunes.
In one year, Obama has gone from a shining star of hope and promise for a new beginning to his current standing as yet another tool of Wall Street and the Military/Industrial complex.
It has been said that he has no choice; that he will find himself a martyr if he swims against the corrosive tide of greed and ignorance that has engulfed our country - and that may be so. But that was the image, if not the platform, that he ran on.
Today, with the escalation all but officially announced, he finds himself as a lame duck.
Granted, it's still early. But what would have to happen between now and 2012 (forget about 2010) to turn this around?
Economy, economy, economy. Fighting this war does nothing for that prospect.
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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
15. I'm pissed off, but in this case, he actually kept a campaign promise n/t
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 06:57 AM by katkat
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
274. Actually, he doubled down on one. How many escalations does he get? Infinite?
First escalation: 20,000 in March 2009.
Second escalation: 34,000 in December 2009.


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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:57 AM
Response to Original message
16. I've disagreed with many of his personnel choices and his coziness with...
...big business and lobbyists but this goes way beyond that.
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blueknight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. he is done
as in one and done. i have 5 kids in college, and none of them will EVER go to fight in a senseless, crazy war. we now have another bush presidency, war, big business and lobbyist, did anything change?
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. Yep, both parties are owned by corporations and the military industrial complex now. nt
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #23
76. Minor correction. We fully realize it now.
A healthcare bill that couldn't have been written better by the insurance companies, and now this.

Which party won the election?
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #76
99. A party in name only. nt
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #23
101. and don't forget the elephant in the room, Wall Street.

Everything points to the fact that Obama is a corporatist president and a tool of Wall Street.

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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
139. Did anything change? Hell, no. Meet the new boss.....
same as the old boss. There are two major political parties in name only. The heads of both parties are the CEOs of major corporations and the joint chiefs at the pentagon.
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TK421 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
229. You should cling tightly to those kids of yours n/t
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
20. Raises hand.............
Caving in to the fucking Generals who just turn the handle on the meat grinder of the Defense Department.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
335. Obama should have fired that creep McCrystal . . . is that his name???
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
21. I am. I don't see the point and it's not like this country has money to piss away
on the continuation of George's Big Adventure, Part II. I know Obama planned to "finish the job," but the "job" isn't worth "finishing."
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Wwagsthedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
22. Because of his war,
Obama's is now a failed presidency. It didn't have to be that way. Despite all his promises, fulfilled or not, we all expected that he would make intelligent decisions.
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
26. Yep
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RedCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
27. Give me my "V" mask now!
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #27
77. Remember, remember the first of December... n/t
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The_Commonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
28. "...it's all for huge profits for the asshole branch of our government."
I actually had someone say to me last week that "we need to get the job done in Afghanistan."

I laughed, and laughed, and laughed...
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
30. escalation in afghanistan makes the nobel peace prize a joke
another sad day in america. 30,000+ men and women sent to a war that will never be "won".

so much for those grand speeches about change.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #30
91. Has there even been a nobel peace prize recall I wonder?
He could be the first there, too.
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #91
257. If they didn't recall Kissinger's they won't recall Obama's.
Kissinger is widely viewed as a war criminal, but he still has his prize. (I'm not saying that Obama is a war criminal although I profoundly disagree with his war policy.)
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #257
270. Good point. What a world. nt
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Iwillnevergiveup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #257
359. The Nobel Peace Prize
SHOULD have gone to Greg Mortenson for the schools he's built in Afghanistan & Pakistan. Wonder if Obama has read "Three Cups of Tea." That's how one wins hearts and minds.
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oedura Donating Member (347 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
31. My opinion of the Republicans...
...is so low that before the election I would often say that the Democrats could nominate a houseplant for the presidency and I'd vote for it before I'd ever vote for a scumbag Republican.

I'm starting to wish that I'd had that option. The plant would probably have made better decisions.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #31
65. You and me both.
:hi:
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maxpower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
32. Way beyond pissed
Kick


Peace,
Max
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yellowwood Donating Member (550 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
33. Very sad
I've been following Obama ever since he ran for Senator in Illinois. He was against the Iraq invasion. In the beginning, that was what made me support him.
I know that he's been faced with overwhelming challenges. I'm willing to cut him some slack for everything except war issues.
I'm glad that I voted for him. He's still better than McCain and Palin.
But I'm feeling a little disillusioned.
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leeroysphitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
34. Pissed off? Yes. Surprised? No.
President Obama is what we though he was: The least objectionable of a bad lot.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
35. Not Me. My Understanding of Afghanistan was Deepened after I Read This Thread. DUers Please See...
This Thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

And then you might think of a single reason, or at least appreciate how complex this matter is.

Read the responses there and here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Also, remember that the MSM doesn't have time or interest, or the capacity or motivation, to explain Afghanistan to us.

So, ya know, we need to educate ourselves, no?

:donut:
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Loge23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #35
42. So what's the end game?
grantcart argues that Vietnam wasn't a "loss" for the U.S.
55,000 dead young Americans were worth the outcome?? What is it that we actually accomplished there?

Afghanistan, whatever it is or wants to be, is simply a bridge too far for America to be this invovlved with at this stage of our history. Grantcart eloquently argues that we will need to provide social security in the way of roads and infrastructure to the Afghans. He repeats the pie-in-the-sky mantra of teaching the Afghans to defend themselves, while all the while - they are!
Our country is literally falling apart! Our education system is decrepit. Health care continues to erode. Jobs are gone forever. And we have a responsibility to rebuild Afghanistan?
This is a political game over there and one that we neither have the will nor the resources to fight anymore.
What is the end game? Will Afghanistan become the sixth borough? Some NY'ers may argue that it already has!
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. End game, a stronger and legit ANA, bread not bombs, shifting from Opium production, stronger border
The end game is in grantcart's piece, though perhaps not explicit.

The best I can do is use a termite analogy.

If you're a homeowner who's ever had a termite problem, it might make sense.

Basically, running away from termites doesn't work.

It's oversimplistic, but apt.

:donut:
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Loge23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. We have to hope you're right...
...but we also will have to deal with the cost and decide whether it was worth it.
IMO, it is not.
...but thank you for your courteous reply! I appreciate your opinion.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
37. pissed beyond measure. nt
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
39. Not pissed off. Worried, a little sad. I believe he's truly doing what he thinks
is best for the country and for the troops already in harm's way, though--despite the cynical motives being tossed around. We'll just have to see if he is right.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
41. Pentagon is happy
And the pentagon has more power than DU does.

Too, the rich people who are making money off war are happy.
And they have more power than all the lefties in the world.

So, no, none of us really factored into the decision.

We don't matter. We, the people have lost our power.
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xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #41
50. you got that right..nt
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #41
69. We matter in that it is OUR sons/daughters/loved ones who are sent
and OUR tax $$$ that are squandered. And that is ONLY how we matter. Nice, eh? x(
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #41
138. You've got that right. And there are people on this site who
are cheerleading this obscenity.

Go to any defense contractor website and look at job listings for Afghanistan. Huge unemployment here and Obama apparently wants to fix it by sending civilians over to Afghanistan to get shot at alongside the military. This is one colossal fuck up.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #138
201. Cheerleaders for War like the Chicago Cops in 1968
Head busting slime bags hiding behind badges
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
43. Same shit ...just a different skin color. He got my vote and will never get it again.
Kucinich 2012 = real change
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waiting Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
45. Obama always said that Afghanistan was the good war.
I despise war, but if he is going to stop extremists from getting nukes or actually capture or kill Bin Laden, I'm all for it. It is our mess, and we can't just walk away and pretend that there aren't risks and very big ones if we did. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt and waiting to see what his strategy is. Becaues I still trust the fact that he has brains and wouldn't just bend over and let the MIC run the show. I am a liberal, so please don't accuse me of being a rightie or a war monger.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #45
51. There isn't a real threat of extremists getting nukes.
And, I don't think one man(OBL) is worth dragging a war on indefinitely.
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waiting Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. You don't think that Pakistan has extremists
in the government or the military? I think that this is as much about Pakistan as it is Afghanistan, if not more. Pakistan has nukes. And a large number of Islamic extremists. As for Bin Laden, that would be a psychological victory for us. Maybe after 8 years of doing it wrong, it would be good to have a strategy so we can get it to the point where we can leave. We can't just pack up and leave now. It takes time.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. Pakistan's nukes are protected and watched.
There isn't a real risk that they will be stolen or detonated by extremists.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #55
93. Yes, half of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence are AQ sympathizers.
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 10:27 AM by MilesColtrane
Hell, they helped Bin Laden escape Tora Bora.

The increase in the number of troops in Afghanistan is just as much about Pakistan and Iran than it is Afghanistan.
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Flaneur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #93
150. Oh, goody, and future wars to look forward to, too!
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #93
308. The presence of the US in Afghanistan is about OIL and nothing
else. We need bases there and a pipeline and bases in the countries north of Afghanistan to control the route to the world's last oil resources. Of course, no one knows for sure if there really is that much oil in the Caspian Sea, but that is the reason we are there.

I just wish they'd tell the truth so that people would nto be making up fairy tales about Al Queda and Osama Bin Laden or falling the stories told by their lying government. Most of the rest of the world knows this, as do the people of Afghanistan who want us out.

If there is a threat to this country, we cannot protect it, can we, if our military is not here to do so. That should have been clear after Hurricane Katrina. It make no sense to send your troops out of the country if you really believed the country was threatened. They do not care about Americans dying these warmongers. They let them die in NO, and they are letting tens of thousands die every year rather than spend all that war money on healthcare. Anyone who believes otherwise, hasn't been paying attention.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #55
100. The presence of the US Military in Afghanistan...
...is contributing to the radicalization movements in neighboring countries.
The SAME would happen here is we were invaded and occupied by a foreign superpower.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #55
382. So what do YOU suggest we do?
Edited on Wed Dec-02-09 05:11 AM by Enthusiast
You want us to invade Pakistan? Tell me your plan to secure the nukes in Pakistan?
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #51
66. isn't OBL dead anyway?? so many factors could be involved with
this escalation there is a pipeline involved. unfortunately.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #45
331. It is a mess which we created based on lies . . .
What extremists?

Alleged Saudi hijackers?

The people who did 9/11 were inside our own government -- !!

You may be a liberal, but support for perpetual war is a right wing concept.

And these wars were given to us by the right wing --

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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
53. Extremely
and he lost my vote.

One term and out.

RL
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
56. It's "Bring 'em on!" and "Smoke 'em out" sung by a different singer.
And, a chorus of "Falling Dominoes" and "Peace with honor".

But, now it's chic and fashionable for some to be hawks because "our guy" is in charge of the killing.
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waiting Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #56
60. We have been at war there for 8 years. I really think that he is
looking for the best strategy to end this. People that think we can just simply walk away are being naive. Allowing extremists to get control of Pakistan is a very real threat to the world. No, I don't think that we should have handled Afghanistan in this way at all, but after 8 years and the instability that we have caused in the area, it would be criminal to simply pull out. We did that in the 80's and it led us directly to 9/11. Smart exist is the best exit. And I trust that Obama is smart, and not a war monger. I am not a hawk. But I'm not naive either.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #60
67. We're going to get out, or get thrown out. The war is lost.
It's now being fought for PR in an attempt, a vain attempt, to avoid the embarrassment of acknowledging another lost war.

Obama isn't a war-monger, he's a politician playing politics with people's lives in order to assure his reelection.

The horror scenarios of Taliban controlled nukes is nonsensical on the face of it and all too reminiscent of the "bloodbath" in Vietnam, and the falling of Thailand to the commies that we all heard about when another president faced the wrath of the public over another lost war.

And, some of remember the Pentagon's pleas for more troops, more time, more money, and the light at the end of the tunnel for that war, the same song we're hearing now.

In the meantime, more people have to die to feed the ambitions of the politicians too cowardly to admit to the fact that we lost...again.
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gelinas Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #67
252. post-war deaths in vietnam
You got most of it right. Be careful with the argument that there was no bloodbath in Vietnam. There were thousands of summary executions and thousands more died in reeducation camps. Some sources claim large numbers of ethnic Chinese were forced to become boat people, who suffered high death rates. The government is said to have blamed the ethnic Chinese with economic sabotage. Some sources attribute the deaths of 'forced' boat people to the new government.
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #252
294. during our withdrawal from Vietnam, I'm sure some people died
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 09:31 PM by newspeak
but, was it more than two million people? Because that's about how many Vietnamese people died during our occupation-not counting Americans.
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gelinas Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #294
389. numbers....yuch
I hate to spit out numbers when talking about deaths, and worse, all the info are estimates, and I am sure politics intrudes in the estimates. I have seen 50,000 to 300,000 executions, up to 165,000 deaths in the reeducation camps, and up to 250,000 deaths of boat people blamed on the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Chinese. Deaths of 'voluntary' boat people weren't included in that number. Of course, Cambodia has its own story, with estimates of 1.5 million to 2.5 million in the Cambodian killing fields. Strange to think that Vietnam ended the killing in Cambodia when they invaded Cambodia in 1979, and then China started a border war with Vietnam in response to the Cambodian invasion. One messed up part of the world.
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
59. Now, now, now...
Obama is too busy polishing his Nobel Peace Prize to worry his beautiful mind with the cost of bloody, unending war.
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waiting Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. I don't believe that.
I think he is being a realist. We have already lost lives there, we are invested. and we need to end it responsibly.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #62
72. So you'll be volunteering to join the fight on the ground in Afghanistan, right?
:patriot:
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waiting Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #72
208. I'm too old for that.
This isn't a new war, it is a new strategy and a needed one. If people think it is as simple as pulling out all the troops and going home, they are very naive. Obama never said that he was going to pull out of Afghanistan, this is really quite ridiculous for all of you that are freaking out over it. There is nothing to be surprised about, that is the place where the people who planned the attacks on 9/11 are, and we can't have Pakistan as their new base of operations. They have nuclear weapons. Sometimes, you have to finishwhat you started, and then leave. He is going to talk about an exit strategy, and that is great. ai voted for him because he is smart, why does everyone all of a sudden think that he isn't?
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #208
305. No one is too old. I am sure you could convince a recruiter. You must try, it's a "just" war!
Finish the job, do your duty.
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
64. Not only pissed, disgusted. n/t
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
68. Kneejerkers run wild!
This place is embarasing. The difference between here and freepervile shrinks every day.
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #68
79. **** you
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #68
98. Do you even know what that man in your avatar stood for?
It wasn't for escalation of an unwinnable war and the reinstatement of the Patriot Act.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #98
112. you have a point ?
Cause your binary thinking doesnt even begin to intimidate me. It didnt with the looney right wing neocons and it sure as hell doesnt with the pacifist left either.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #112
118. It's far beyond binary.
But shit....if you want to think it is to prevent the world from crumbling around you...
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #68
104. Kneejerkers?
Warmonger.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #104
111. Warmonger?
Simpleton
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #111
113. Simpleton?
Doof Bunny.

:)
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #113
114. Doof Bunny?
Poopy butt!
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monmouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #68
184. I double-checked to see where I was. Disgusting....n/t
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stillrockin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #68
188. I'm not embarrassed to stand up for what I believe. War is wrong.
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
70. July 21, 2008: Obama says troop levels must increase in Afghanistan.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/20/obama.afghanista... /

Two things upset me in the 2008 campaign:

1. Obama's proposed massive escalation in Afghanistan and
2. Obama's ludicrous blaming of Russia for the Georgia war

Both were clearly wrongheaded.

But it was either accept the bad with the good or let an old idiot and Caribou Barbie take over.
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #70
73. The warmongers on DU
have been using the meme that "Obama campaigned on wanting to end the job in Afghanistan". That is true, but campaign promises kept do not equal good policy. I disagreed with his policies on Afghanistan and Pakistan when he was saying it during the campaign. But I liked a lot of other things he was saying, so I am not surprised but that doesn't mean I think it is wise policy, it isn't. And may be his undoing.
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #73
78. The window closed on Afghanistan seven years ago
It's over. Hopeless.

I clearly recall being angry when listening to Obama when discussing both Afghanistan and Georgia.
His positions and policies were wrong.

But what I find weird is that many act like this is the first time they're hearing about the Afghan escalation plans.
It's been the centerpiece of Obama's war policy for the last three years.
Did people think he was lying to get elected and would then negotiate a peace settlement?
I didn't.
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. Yeah it is no surprise
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 10:06 AM by spiritual_gunfighter
I thought it was very telling that during one of the debates Obama was asked a question on Pakistan and he was the only one on the panel that was for going into Pakistan. Even "never met a war he didnt like" John McCain thought that was an insane idea, it was and it is.
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dbmk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #80
176. No he didn't think it was an insane idea
McCain just found it prudent to lie at that point.

He would authorize attacks inside Pakistan in a heartbeat. As would any US president given intel on the position of high value targets (which I seem to remember being the premise for the answer).
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dreamnightwind Donating Member (863 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
75. Primary him
Count me in the pissed off crowd. Now what are we gonna do about it?
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #75
90. Hate to say it, but I think it's time for third parties. The repugs seem
ready to do it with their "teabagger" party, I think the time has come to admit that our efforts to reclaim the Democrats from the DLC. They no longer want to represent us. Unfortunately, no third party exists now that we could build upon (the Greens seem too disorganized). Maybe if Kucinich, Grayson, Feingold, Frank and others chose to break away...but that's a longshot. Shaking up the status quo seems nearly impossible in America.
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dreamnightwind Donating Member (863 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #90
372. Agreed...
but what's wrong with working within the Democratic party? We still have the primaries, that's what they're for. There's a huge hill to climb to get any serious 3rd party on the left. The right (and their faux populist friends, the Perot party, the new Tea Party) always has money poring in to back them, the left, not so much. So creating an organized party infrastructure and doing all of the signature drives to get on the ballot is a tough hurdle for us. I'd be all for a good 3rd party, but it seems easier to use the primaries for Progressive candidates.

And next time I hope to see more support on DU for progressive candidates, especially POTUS. We can hold our nose in the general if it comes to that, but the primary is where we get to exercise our conscience, whether the candidate seems electable or not.
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
85. I'm pissed and not at all surprised.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
87. surprised at how pissed I am today
kinda shaking mad . . . and I knew this was coming.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #87
126. I'm surprised that your pissed at being surprised...or something like that.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
89. Yep. I'll be scraping that bumper sticker off the car today
Maybe I'll just replace it with a Grayson sticker (he's my congressman). I truly wanted Obama to be one of the greats-a leader we could ALL be proud of- but he's proving himself to be nothing more than another stooge for corporate special interests.

:-(
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
92. what amazes me is how many people aren't
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
94. Obama is pulling us out of Iraq, and from what I read, he is
looking for an endgame in Afghanistan. None of us will know for sure until after his 8PM speech. It appears he has recognized a truth other nations didn't: Afghanistan never has had a powerful central government and doesn't want one. Work with the regional leaders, support them, empower them. Give them economic aid, give them training in policing, send in Ag agents to help rebuild their farms.

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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
95. Here here... n/t
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lovelyrita Donating Member (213 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
96. I'm pissed off.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
97. Sad. Very sad. So many more deaths..... and horrific injuries.
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 11:04 AM by BrklynLiberal
Whose child, spouse, or sibling will be the last one to die in Afghanistan?
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
102. Here
K&R
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Union Yes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
105. He's already lost my vote in 2012, that's how pissed I am. nt
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Peregrine Took Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #105
243. Me, too. I hope he doesn't run. n/t
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
106. Recommend
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
107. K&R.
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
110. K&R
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
116. Present. n/t
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
121. me . . . n/t
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dana_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
123. yep n/t
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Peace_Sells Donating Member (130 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
124. I'm not pissed.
I'm not pissed just a little bit disappointed. I know he said he would continue afghanistan but I honestly believed he would listen to us when we said NO MORE!
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lebkuchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
128. Maybe bin Laden has moved back to Tora Bora?
and Obama plans to "finish the job?"
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
129. +1 But this was expected.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
130. Yes, I am.
n/t
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Libertas1776 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
132. Pissed off and angry...
Check!!!
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
133. I'm angry about this escaltion, for sure.
I am disappointed about other things, most notably, health care **real** reform, but this war pisses me off.
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irislake Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
135. Totally pissed off. But not surprised.
Wake me up when American foreign policy changes.

Ho ho ho ho hum.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
136. Yup. Here's my rant:
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #136
190. Good rant, that
Hey, the underside of the bus just got a lot classier. Welcome!
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #190
218. Why thank you!
I appreciate your fine compliment!

:D
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
137. I am against all wars...so this escolation just pisses me off...
I want the change damn it! Where the hell is it>?
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greengestalt Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
140. Yeah, I loathe this war
Perhaps the charges of the radical right are correct, that Obama is just an empty shell, suit, puppet for the big corporations... As if McCain, Dubya and perhaps Pailin, weren't also


The only logical way I see this war continuing is the short term goals of the corporate elite followed by the rape of resources to feed the World Trade Organization. First the "No-Bid Contractors" will continue making at least a dime for every dollar spent on the war, in short $100,000 for every million spent on each soldier to begin with. Then, when the country is stable enough that a few gas lines and mines are protected (and the rest is violent warlord hell still) the multinationals get to take all the resources to profit off of them and blackmail the world with energy prices and the US will have to have troops standing by to take all the roadside bombs and harass the natives so the corporate execs can come by and watch the money being pumped out of the ground.


Even that I somehow find undeservedly flattering of the situation. I think the big corporations don't really have an agenda, beyond 3months profits, (Fiscal Quarter) so their lobbyists just weaken the government, giving insane idealists too much sway. So Obama's afraid of being unable to do anything and because his own party is too divided and bought out, is forced to go along with the rabid right who've deluded themselves it's winnable just to get anything done.
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redsoxrudy Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
141. Not Pissed Off..
I disagree with the decision but he has said all along from the beginning of his campaign that this was his position. Now some of his other decisions....
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1badjedi Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
142. Wait......
is he still playing chess? There is a grand scheme that is going to make all our lives better right? Right?


Ok nvm back to lurking.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
143. "Pissed off" doesn't begin to cover it
Obama has been a complete corporate lackey ever since he assumed office.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #143
309. "Fucking Livid" is the term you are looking for.
Welcome to my world, since 1980.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #143
310. dupe
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 10:28 PM by glitch
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
144. I agree. Not looking for a pony. Just wanted change. It hasn't come
I'm so disappointed that I'm headed back to third-partydom.
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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
145. Pissed. Afghanistan is a perpetual, druglord infested clusterfuck
not worth anyone's life.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
146. No supporter seems to be able to answer the question WHY
with a valid response. Lots of answers, none of them valid. Then the debate just becomes name calling. I see no benefit to this country staying in Afghanistan. All I see are more bodies and us once again propping up a corrupt government.
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
147. The CHANGE is that we're finally going to try to defeat the people that attacked us on 9-11. nt
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #147
149. So war is being declared on Saudi Arabia?
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Kermitt Gribble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #149
161. Lol!
Wait, I thought Iraq attacked us on 911? Now I'm really confused!
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TK421 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #149
238. No...we need THAT oil n/t
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
151. Right here!
When will all these STUPID FUCKING WARS end? Not with the Dems or Obama evidently. :mad: :grr:
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BREMPRO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
152. not happy about it, but don't blame Obama, and would like to hear his reasoning first
bush and co neglected Afghanistan for 8 years and we are reaping significant security problems caused by that neglect on the border of Pakistan. Pakistan is the real problem. I'll withhold judgment before i hear the details.
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DrZeeLit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
154. Yep, not happy. But..and I am certain of this. He never said he'd take us out of Afghanistan. So.
It's my wishful thinking that we can get out.
I realize many factors, such as what's going on in Pakistan and any jeopardy with nukes, are not available to me.
I am hoping this is why he's had to make such a move.

He said he'd talk with the people on the ground in Afghanistan. I don't like the general in charge, but the guy IS the general in charge.
I'm concerned about the leverage brought to bear by the military industrial complex.
I'd love to give him the benefit of the doubt. This is NOT an easy decision.
I hope nobody is that cavalier to think he jotted this on a pad of paper and checked it off like Santa. Some will pop that off the top of their heads -- duh, so easy when it's not my decision to make, right?
Nope. This was NOT EASY.
I saw his face the night those coffins rolled across the tarmac and again at Arlington.

And I'm out on a limb here, but I will never agree that Afghanistan is instantaneously his war. I don't care what anybody says. He didn't start it -- 8 years of crap doesn't make one decision throw it over to him.
But, no, I'm not happy.
I can never "endorse" war.
I just don't know how we get out -- short of walking away tomorrow or the next day. But... this is NOT the same situation as Russia faced. Russia wasn't trying to keep crazy bastards from a nuke bastion in Pakistan.
And Michael Moore is kind of wrong. I teach on a college campus where the "youth of today" could care less about this. It is NOT bothering them one iota. So.....

All around, a sad day.


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seeinfweggos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
156. i knew it when i voted for him, mainly because he repeatedly said he would
did you think he was lying or were you not aware of his position on the issue when you cast your vote?
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onethatcares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
157. count me in the against column
what good is war?
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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
158. I'm Pissed
But I didn't vote for Obama - I thought he was an illusion and/or he was being 'manufactured' (a la Naomi Klein's logoing). Everything I've seen so far supports my original sentiments.
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Kermitt Gribble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
159. Throw it on the ever-growing pile of disappointments.
Yeah, I'm pissed, but this one issue of many I'm pissed about.
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sandyj999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
162. Whatever Is Beyond Pissed........I'm There
I knew it wouldn't be perfect but I had hope. It is no longer there. Same old crap.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
163. Me and the ten other things before this!
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
164. It is unconscionable
I don't support him on the economy, on health care, on the prosecution of war criminals, on the environment, on the escalation of illegal foreing occupations, or on his state dinner security.
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Myrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
165. Aye.
n/t
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Upfront Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
166. I am.
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Moostache Donating Member (905 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
167. Can not get mad until I get the knife out of my back...
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 04:34 PM by Moostache
In all seriousness, the Obama presidency is the greatest disappointment of my life to date.

Reasons I voted for Obama:
Change.

A new direction for the military.
A new direction for the economy.
A new direction for the health care industry.
A new direction for the environment.
A new direction for the equal rights of ALL citizens.

What I have seen to date:
NOTHING. WORSE THAN NOTHING - A TOTAL SELL OUT TO SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS AND A DAMNING OF THE PEOPLE WHO PUT HIM THERE.

- War in Iraq conveniently moved to the back pages.
- War in Afghanistan escalated and elongated to ensure troops on the ground 10 years after the mistake started.
- Banking system still unregulated, AND the criminals who stole the money from TARP in the first place flaunting it and giving themselves BILLIONS in tax dollars.
- Economy still shedding middle class jobs and hanging by a thread with a bleak future out look.
- Health Care Reform so watered down and impudent that we are getting nothing and giving up a mandate in the exchange.
- "Green" energy economy being largely ignored until gas rises back to $5 a gallon I guess....
- Gay rights "fierce advocate" seems to have misplaced his fangs in favor of worn down dentures...

This democratic administration is only reinforcing what I already knew deep down before last year's false hope - we have no democracy or real difference between the two parties any more. We live in a corporatacracy. George Carlin was right - we have no rights, we have privileges and we have no freedom, we have owners. When we put Obama in office, he kindly slipped those campaign promises into a back pocket and forgot all about them.
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dbmk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #167
179. Like the promise to escalate in Afghanistan?
He seems to be doing rather well on that one.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #179
272. Apparently the escalation is neverending - don't forget he already escalated in March 2009
I guess every escalation he does from now on is a-okay since he said he would on the campaign right? Sky's the limit, it's all unlimited blank checks.

:puke:
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dbmk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #272
376. Hey, I was not making a judgement on whether its right or not.
Just wondering why some are talking about broken promises when in this case he is doing exactly what he said he would.

Be it right or wrong.
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Mira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
168. Pissed off is only the very beginning of a steep hill of negative emotion K&R
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condoleeza Donating Member (464 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
169. Yeah, me either.
I campaigned for him all year, met the whole family and "believed" and hoped that his stand on Afghanistan was only a talking point. Apparently there is more at stake that we the people don't know about, as is what happened with LBJ. At my age I frankly don't expect anything good to ever happen as far as our gov't is concerned. My preference would be that we pull out of every world conflict right now and let the chips fall where they may. Having lost a fiance in VietNam and seeing the constant BS this country involves itself in, I am just done. If I could "unproduce" my children and now grandchildren I would. It should have ended with me. Humans suck.
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debunkthelies Donating Member (290 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
170. Second That......
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
172. Disappointed, broken-hearted and angry here.
This escalation is completely unnecessary, immoral and wrong.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
173. pissed, not surprised
I'm holding onto a sliver of hope he knows what the fuck he is doing
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
174. Not me, I knew he would send more troops to Afghanistan since he told us so during his campaign.
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LastLiberal in PalmSprings Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
175. More numb than pissed
I think I used up all my "being pissed off" brain cells during Bush's reign. Every time I thought it couldn't get worse, it did. This is beginning to look like a continuation of the past 8 years. Shit.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
177. I just had a friend of mine who turned Republican post 9/11 tell me he thought it was the wrong move
It's the wrong move.
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relayerbob Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
178. Guess you weren't paying attention ...
during the campaign.
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #178
180. Amazing how many have no clue as to what Obama campaigned on.
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stillrockin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #180
187. He already sent in extra troops. That's the only pass he's getting from me.
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
181. K & R
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edc Donating Member (407 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
183. The survival of the American kleptocracy
depends upon maintaining the fiction of popular sovereignty while selling out to 1% of the people while conning at least 50% of the rest into voting for either party's candidates each election cycle.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
185. Aye here
44 oz in the hold as a result

We're all fucked
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stillrockin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
186. We've been suckered from the getgo.
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
191. I'm with ya. nt
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
192. Rec #180 I'm sad to say. This decision makes my heart ache, but we should have seen it
coming.
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lillypaddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
194. I'm very disappointed
and now we will eat our own, just like the rethugs. What now?
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
196. Well, yes, but...the generals wanted 80,000/McCain would have sent 200,000
I think that this is an international problem that needs MANY solutions as well as some personnel to carry the policies out.

I am opposed to any increases but understand why, to some extent, it might actually be an intelligent war strategy (and why it might not be).

I want tio hear what he says.

Then i want to see what he does.

Afghanistan would, in my opinion, be better off without a war and no weapons at all. But there is a war and it is not all on our side...
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #196
365. Hardly, after the 30,000 we only have 20,000 left in the states should Canada attack.
With normal rotations to support and stop loss ended, and the existing force already having spent more time in actual harm's way than any previous war, our troops must be running on fumes.
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DebbieCDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
198. Me too
Vietnam Redux
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BobRossi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
199. "Change" baby!
Change you just can't fucking believe!
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ohheckyeah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
202. I don't get why people are so pissed off that he's
doing something he always said he would do. Did people really not hear him when he talked about Afghanistan? Did they note read his Renewing American leadership? Did they only hear the "Hope and change" part?
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Cheviteau Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #202
213. Folks here have very short memories.
I'm an old guy (70),a Vietnam combat veteran turned peacenik and DFH in the late 60's - early 70's. I'm also a lifelong democrat who voted for Obama. As much as I hate war, I knew what I was getting with my vote. And I'm damn sure not going to start whining about his decisions. I'm willing to give him a chance to clean up the biggest mess ever left to a president.

Jump over to "The Rude Pundit" blog and get a load of reality from his post of today. Maybe that'll ease your lamentations and gnashing of the teeth.
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ohheckyeah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #213
237. I'm not lamenting or ghashing my teeth.
I knew what to expect from Obama because I informed myself on his positions and read what he wrote.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #202
233. Bogus talking point - what part of 'you're killing children' don't you understand?
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DonCoquixote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
205. Checking in
I am, sadly.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
206. This is one more in a quickly growing list of disappointments.
There has been no change and it looks as if there won't be. We were duped.
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Knight Hawk Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
209. Not Good
Obama has been hustled by the military industrial complex and the average joe will suffer on account of it.
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
210. i'm beyond pissed
i'm very discouraged, somewhat heartbroken. there's another thread around here titled something like, "it's all bullshit," and that's kind of how i'm feeling. i didn't even click on it to see what it's about, just thought, yes, it is. sigh.

terrible decision. will cost and cost and cost. :cry:

why more WAR?!
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
214. I might be if I was the least bit surprised by it.
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
215. Don't worry. The energy companies will love him, the dead people can't complain...
.. and the Afghans he inspires to become martyrs and terrorists will be grateful that he gave their wretched lives purpose.
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #215
306. right on!!!!
+10000000 for the simple truth of the matter.
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mother earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
216. Pissed is not the word, outraged & in utter disbelief.
NOT IN MY NAME! Bring them home & stop this bleed of young lives & money, the only ones getting rich are the bastard Halliburtons & Blackwater (who's name change escapes me, they had to, Blackwater is too well known for criminal behavior).
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
220. FUCK!!!!
:mad:
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
223. Bush III
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jesus_of_suburbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
225. I'm pissed, but I expected it.
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BakedAtAMileHigh Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
227. Yes I Am
It sucks and is very, very stupid.
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gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
230. I am not happy ...
with Obama either. May I join you in your stated reasons? They are mine too, and my fingers are sore from typing them all over DU. Thanks for your post. You said it very well.
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
231. I will miss all my friends here on DU, but I think I will change to indepedent next year.
Is there an Independent Underground?

I will never vote for another Democrat. (or Republican)
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OKDem08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
234. "Yes We Can"...
Nice little marketing scam he pulled...I wish I could get my campaign contribution back. My money was wasted.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #234
236. I want my money back too! let's sue!
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 07:14 PM by grahamhgreen
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
235. perpetual war for perpetual profits....
eom
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
239. For the record. nt
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
241. Shamerica. That's what this country is. So depressing. nt
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roamer65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
242. Just buy gold and sit back and watch...
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 07:22 PM by roamer65
as the the USA becomes a "rerun" of the USSR.
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #242
245. You Didn't See 60 Minutes
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #245
251. Not to mention the effects of mining
Gold mines are worse than coal mines, and their operators even more irresponsible.
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roamer65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #245
253. Tell me what gold doesn't have the "taint" of human greed to it.
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 08:06 PM by roamer65
Gold, diamonds, oil, etc are all in the same boat on this one.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
244. Pissed off doesn't even begin to cover it.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
246. Yes, these are wars for profit and profit only.
Obama is perpetuating the bullshit...
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DontTreadOnMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
247. I just finished watching the speech
It is now Obama's War.

And he has lost my support.
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N_E_1 for Tennis Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #247
386. I agree
Obama took over ownership of the war last night.
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La Coliniere Donating Member (581 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
248. Count me in!
but not surprised.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
249. He's doing what he said he would do, but it still sucks. n/t
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
250. Disappointed, of course. Not surprised.
but, Obama did criticize Bush for not finishing the job in Afghanistan and for ignoring the calls for more troops there. So, I'm not surprised at all, as he is basically doing what he said he would do.
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theFrankFactor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
256. Tremendous Disappointment!
I posted a new episode to my podcast, The Frank Factor | Liberal and Proud!.

Please click the link below to view it.
http://thefrankfactor.podOmatic.com/entry/2009-11-30T16...
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ColonelTom Donating Member (415 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
258. Yep. I'm done.
Between this and the health-care "reform" debacle, I'm finished. Dean 2012, anyone?
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louis c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
259. I'm giving this President a chance
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 08:04 PM by louis c
I, too, am against this war. However, I trust this President and I know he's the best we're going to do. If he loses the support of people like us, we're all doomed.

I lived through the sixties and seventies. I remember LBJ and the Viet-Nam War. I can quote the Geneva Accords and give you the year of Diem Bien Phu (1954). I read the letters John Foster Dulles sent to Eisenhower. I was on the streets protesting the war in 1968 (I was 16 years old).

What we got for all our trouble was Richard M. Nixon.

My advice. Be careful.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
260. Pissed off here.
Even knowing it was coming, it's still a shock.
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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
261. Tonight America Needed a Hero
but Obama failed to live up to the expectations. I know there were advisors that showed him how ending this failed occupation in Afghanistan could prove to be polticial gold. Ending a costly war. Cutting the Budget Defecit, Bringing the Troops home, Solving the energy and healthcare crisis we face.

Doesn't Obama remember that waging WAR is what brings down every President that has tried it, war brought down LBJ, War Brought down both Bush's.

Obama's Presidency has just been tainted he is now the wager of war. Humanitarian no more, to accept the Nobel Peace Prize at this point smacks of Hypocrisy.

Tears tonight....it is a very sad day.
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peace frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
263. Shit, piss and corruption
I've moved from disappointment to dismay to outright disgust.

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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
265. Not me. I know hen/t did not decide to do this lightly. I trust his judgement on this. n/t
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Eatacig Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
266. Won't be pissed off
x( I won't be pissed off if he doesn't give the Military Contracts to Dick Cheney's Companies so the jobs can be outsourced. The jobs are the least we deserve.
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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
267. That's why no one voted for you for President.
I didn't hear anything in the speech that indicated he thought this was a 'good idea'. Only the best of a lot of bad alternatives.
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
268. None of you on this thread should be surprised or disappointed...
During the whole campaign last year Obama said at least a hundred times that he would send more troops to Afghanistan, that he would finish the war in Afghanistan, and that we should never have taken our eye off the ball in Afghanistan.
And now most everyone here on this thread is acting like you've never heard what Obama said before you voted for him!
What the hell is up?
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sheldon Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #268
348. Some of the whiners here
Would make excellent teabaggers!

Yeah, it sucks we are still stuck in Afghanistan. But I'm pretty sure leaving immediately would be a bad move. I'm encouraged by Obama's rational approach.
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zorahopkins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
269. Plenty Pissed Off!
I am very upset.

I am crying as I type this.

I am so upset and disappointed.

And angry!
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
271. After watching Obama's..
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 08:26 PM by sendero
... handling of the economy and health care reform, my bar was set to "one half inch higher than Bush".

I knew he was going to do this, complete with the long drawn out "consideration" that to anyone with a clue the result was a foregone conclusion.

Obama is the "play is safe" president. He has no chance of making any kind of historical mark, he is a political milktoast who goes along with the crowd.

Too bad.
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michaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
273. It is just plain wrong to send the same soldiers to this war 3 & 4 times.
Do people understand what it does to them, physically and mentally? It is just plain wrong!!!
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
276. I can hardly believe that these people dare to say there is not enough
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 08:41 PM by MasonJar
money for universal health care. I just want to know one thing. Would he send his dayghter over there? If so, I can accept it. Easy to answer. He doesn't have to.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
277. All the people cheering this war need to sign up for it. PERIOD. Keyboard commandos make me vomit.
And saying withdrawal in 2011 is somehow a good thing is doubleplus vomit, you sign away a year of your life in Afghanistan and then get back to us.

Anyone cheering this escalation needs to be responded with: Sign up.
No discussion, no bullshit rationalizations.

:puke: and re :puke: because apparently, that's all we've got.

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DumbBassRepublicans Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #277
280. ATTEN-HUT...!!!!!
A-M-E-N, glitch...!!!
My feelings EXACTLY....
I'm STILL waiting for Limbaugh, and Hannity,
and O'Reilly, and Beck, and Cheney (especially Cheney)...
to sign up for active duty in Afghanistan...!!

WE CAN CALL IT.... "THE CHICKEN HAWK BRIGADE...!!!"

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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #280
302. Welcome to DU! Chickenhawk Brigade, Keyboard Commandos, whatever.
They won't sign up and they won't shut up. They'll just keep... typing.
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Clear Blue Sky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
278. I vote aye...nt
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
279. Considering Obama recieved more military industry campaign contributions than McCain
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 08:48 PM by balantz
I guess it isn't a huge surprise that he is escalating there:
http://www.southernstudies.org/2009/12/the-campaign-cas...

Not to mention he campaigned stating he would focus more on Afghanistan.

And as a senator he consistently voted for Iraq war funding.

It's all just plain disgusting.



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Flatulo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
281. I think he's doing the right thing. nt
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liquid diamond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
282. I'm not.
I'm proud of him for not bowing down to irrational extremists.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
283. I'm pissed and outraged even though I knew that this would happen since the primaries.
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 09:10 PM by earth mom
I'm listening to the speech now on Cspan and all I can think of is propaganda to the nth degree.

The speech is exactly like what the world has heard from every slick and full of shit politician this planet has had throughout history. :grr: :puke:
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ncteechur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
286. I'm not--I think he made the best decision based on all information.
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irislake Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
288. Hate to say it but-----
I hope your"Empire" goes so broke that you can't do any further damage in the world. Pissed off does not begin to describe the way I feel.
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earcandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
289. I'm in.
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webDude Donating Member (830 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
290. Si!!!
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
292. Not totally ticked off.
I believe that we as a nation are responsible not only for ending these damned fool wars, but also returning some sort of order to the governments and infrastructure of the nations we've meddled with. It's the "fixing" part that I never saw in Iraq but still hope to see in Afghanistan.

Dropping everything and walking away is probably the best path, but I figure if anyone can rebuild three nations at the same time, it's our guy.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
293. I hate to point this out
but Obama NEVER said he was going to end that war.

He called it a NECESSARY and JUST war during the campaign and where he was going to concentrate efforts.

So in this sense he did not deceive you.

And yes I get the anger, I don't like it either, but deceived. I knew when I voted for Obama that an escalation was coming.
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irislake Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
295. He's a pod president.
When he opens up his mouth to explain this disgusting betrayal a high little squeal is gonna tell you where your country is headed.

A-a-aay-e-e-e-e-i-i-i-eeeeee.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
296. Philosoraptor - count me among your supporters k*r
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marcmanv007 Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
297. He Won't Get My Vote Again..
If he renigs on the three year timeline. He has already pissed me off by supporting and carrying on many of Bush's crimes against America. He had better do some serious appeasing in the coming months to we progressives if he wants a second term.
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Techn0Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #297
299. Probably not mine either :(
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #297
368. Can't make a 12-month timeline in Gitmo, so how is a 3-year timeline credible?
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PatrynXX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
298. I'm not. It's not a stupid war. They attacked us.
Bush ignored it for 8 years running. I'll give Obama his 3 years. But after that he's on his own. He needs to get to Pakistan. Severely. I'm not anti war. They attacked us. Yes it's time for change. Pull the fuck out of Iraq and get to the real war.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #298
303. "They attacked us"? Who. al Qaeda ? There are like 100 left.
How much money are you willing to spend to kill those 100 men? How many innocent lives are you willing to sacrifice? Are you willing to destroy our economy to get them? And how well is it working? And what is the possibility for success?

"They attacked us" so we have to be tough and kill, kill, kill. That's Cheney speaking.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #298
304. The REAL war is on poverty.
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #304
318. bingo!
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #298
311. Yea right ...the Taliban attacked us ...or was it a group of criminals from Saudi Arabia?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #298
322. Who attacked us?
Alleged hijackers who were Saudis?

Or treasonous leadership within our own government?

Have you ever heard of perpetual war --

Vietnam --

WWII . . . which took less than 5 years to fight?

If you're not pro-war, then you need to search out Brig. Gen. Stanley Darling Butler

and read his comments in "War Is A Racket!!" --

After that, move on to Henry Kissinger's brutal, but honest comments about soldiers!!

And then stop being naive --

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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
307. k/r
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pitchforksandtorches Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
313. He has no balls.
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
315. His speech tonight brought me back
After spending a couple of very active years on DU - I have been off the site since Obama's election; choosing to focus on local politics and issues, but with no less passion.

The sadness and bewilderment I feel regarding his capitulation to the industrial/war complex brought me back to DU - if for no other reason - to express my outrage. Good to see many here still share the same compass bearings.

Where to go from here and what can I do? New questions I must ask myself.

peace~
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
316. I notice he has drawn the line at three years.

Meaning that he'll declare victory and leave in October 2012.

I am very disillusioned with Obama.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
317. We have Bush's Goldman-Sachs domestic policy and Bush's Rumsfeld-Gates foreign policy.
And the Reverend Rick Warren to pray for us at night.
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colsohlibgal Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
319. Perpetual War
When is this craziness going to end? We'll accomplish very little over there except further enriching contractors while killing and maiming our soldiers and others while creating even more people who would love to slit all our throats.

There has to be something in the air in Washington, something a few people are immune to but most are not, something that turns your brain to mush if you spend too much time there.

I worked hard to help elect this guy but he has been an enormous disappointment. I will not even vote for the man in 2012, I'll vote for whoever is running for the Green Party if nothing else develops. More and more I am becoming more positive that to change much we will need a viable third party to challenge the two party status quo.
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nightrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
320. Pres Obama, return the Nobel peace prize, your actions don't deserve it
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
321. More perpetual war-game playing . . . and Obama is now dealer . . .
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 10:46 PM by defendandprotect
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nomaco-10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
324. I'm so disappointed......
Tonight's speech was UTTER FUCKING BULLSHIT.

I bought into the whole nine yards, hook, line and sinker. I really loved him and his whole "CHANGE" presidential candidacy.

What a disappointment.

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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
329. I voted for hope not war, and all I got was this stupid DU thingie
:wtf:
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annm4peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
330. I'm more sad than angry
I don't think it is the real Obama but our "powers that be". I think it will take House of Reps and the people to end this war.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
332. Here! Very dissapointed, but not suprised.
Balls have to be shown.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
334. The PEACE symbol is back . . . shouldn't everyone be wearing a "END the WARS" button . . . ????
At least --

Why don't we all show every day how we feel about this -- ???

:eyes:

Every day we should see buttons which say MEDICARE FOR ALL --

Get Wall Street out of the White House --

Down with the corporate-DLC --

End the MIC --

whatever . . .

I'm sure we can think of a dozen more!!

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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #334
337. Somewhere around the house I have an old button with a peace symbol on it and the words
"Out NOW!". It's at least 40 years old. I never really expected to have to dig it out again but I think it's time.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #337
338. Well, I don't get why we go to DC when neither Congress nor Obama is there . . .?
And we are encouraged to protest -- but we don't do the easiest and most

obvious thing to do -- proclaim what we are thinking to each other!

That's what needs to be done.

Whether it's MEDICARE FOR ALL --

Or get Wall Street out of the White House --

Or any other dozen things we can think of --

beginning with Liberals/Progressives move in a BLOC -- ???

How about that?

Where's Plan B?

I've been saying this for months -- !!!

Just seems logical -- an extension of the internet whose main value is letting

us communicate with one another.

Wanna go into the button business?

:)
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
340. Saddened more than pissed off.
"Change" apparently only refers to domestic policy.
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NoUsername Donating Member (265 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
347. Hell, I'm beyond pissed.
And I didn't even vote for him.

I saw his pronouncements of "change" for what they were worth and thought they were completely bogus from the get-go. I voted third party. Better to vote your conscience than vote for a fraud. I do not, in any way, regret my vote.

My only regret is that Obama has turned out to be even worse than I had expected.

Much, much worse.

I knew he was a sellout but I didn't think he would sell us out this badly. And yet, before he even took office, his choices of advisers and various other Cabinet members more than confirmed my decision that I had made the right choice by not voting for him. Once I saw that Rahm, Timmy, and Larry were in the equation, I knew that we (the poor and working-class) were screwed. And somehow, with a Dem president and Dem majorities in both houses, they can't manage to pass a single-payer health care bill that covers EVERYONE because hey, competition would be bad for the free-market health insurance companies that give them $$$$$$$$$ in donations


I would love to be proved wrong on this but sadly, I highly doubt that will ever happen.

"Bush's Third Term" indeed.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
349. "not with blinders on"? What was it then, cotton wool in your ears?
He always said there would be an escalation in Afghanistan. I'm perpetually astonished at people's capacity for self-deception.
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sheldon Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
350. Here is a commnet from huffpo that I liked:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/01/obamas-afghani...
Our adult President spoke to us, and the world, as adults. Pakistan and Afghanistan are failed states, and Pakistan has nukes. The Bush Wars must be cleaned up - and the endless war-machine-trillions must stop.

McCrystal (sp?) has to stand and deliver his mission -with an end date and with a budget. Congress must provide the budget. The rest of the World has to step up too - nukes are in a scary place.

The three-pronged approach: a diplomatic, civilian, and military 'surge', has a shot. It's not the Texas Cowboy approach, it's an adult approach. The President is not trying to turn these countries into new democracies - he's trying to secure a world peace free from Nukes - especially those threatened by fanatics. And don't forget India, and Iran...

I stand with my President. And, if Congress would get over the election, and start thinking about saving our economy with healthcare reform, infrastructure rebuilding, education availability, ad infinitem, along with ending these Wars, then there is a real shot at saving our entrance into the 21st Century.

The goal is peace with economic power. If you can do a better job, have at it.
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swag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
351. You voted for him even though he told you exactly what he was going to do
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/14/opinion/14obama.html

And now you're pissed.

You weren't paying attention?
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #351
352. Don't worry. We won't make that mistake again.
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swag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #352
353. I've heard that before.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #353
354. I bet you have. It sounds like you'd rather progressives didn't vote for Democrats.
And you're doing a good job of making that a reality.
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swag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #354
355. Your reply is a non sequitur and is nonsensical.
Edited on Wed Dec-02-09 12:05 AM by swag
Did you vote for Obama?

If so, were you just uninformed?

He told you exactly what he was going to do in Afghanistan in July, 2008. In the New York Times.

If you voted for him, then, why?
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #355
356. Are you really that obtuse?
Or did you just recently come out of a coma? If so, let me refresh your memory: there were two viable candidates in last year's election. One, a crazy, stupid warmongering nutcase with an apocalyptic illiterate for a running mate and ... Obama.

Now, I ask you again: would you rather all the progressives had voted for someone other than Obama? In other words, would you rather John McCain was president right now? And would you rather Mitt Romney wins in 2012? Cuz that's what everyone with your ridiculous attitude is going to bring about.
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swag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #356
357. Yes, I am really that obtuse when reading comments as obscure as yours.
Sorry, jgraz, I don't read much that you or anybody else posts on DU. I just think it's stupid that anybody's bitching about Obama doing exactly what he said he would do, and getting all pissed off about what he said in tonight's speech since it's what he has been saying for more than a year.

I voted for Obama twice. He was the best person running for the job. I don't agree with a lot of what he is doing. I had no delusions that he was a progressive. It's funny and sad that "progressives" thought he was one of them, when he so obviously was not. (Can anybody fucking read any more?)

So your point is that you support the President? What is your point?

Help me. As you said, I'm obtuse. I don't follow your posts, so I don't know who you are.

Thanks!
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #357
361. I never thought Obama was a progressive.
Of course, the hardcore Obama boosters swore up and down that he was the most progressive guy ever to run for office ever. They knew they couldn't get Obama elected without progressive support and they had no problem lying through their teeth about their candidate.

And their candidate had no problem lying -- or at least implying -- in order to get elected. Obama co-opted the language of the left in order to hint that he really was with us. Many of us hoped Obama was more progressive than he was letting on, but we were all prepared to work to pull him to the left.

That's what's happening now. People are desperately trying to be heard by the president who promised he would listen. We don't feel betrayed because he's escalating the war. We feel betrayed because he's made it clear he has no interest in even listening to progressive viewpoints.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #357
383. oh, bullshit bullshit blather blather blather--we are not those rigid, blinkered voters
you think we are. So he's "doing exactly what he said he would do"--that doesn't mean we can't hold him to a higher standard and be disappointed that he STILL has not seen the sheer stupidity, the folly, and the evilness of this course?

But you've convinced me--I will no longer be voting for anyone who makes even one statement or advances EVEN ONE policy with which I disagree. That way, I will have no grounds to bitch.

Your entire premise is total bullshit. You're saying, either vote for the guy and shut up, or don't vote for him at all. I WILL be choosing the latter course of action in 2012. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, after being brainwashed by the PTB and his own eloquent but ultimately meaningless bullshit, but he has betrayed my trust by revealing his true loyalties so as far as I'm concerned he is not a worthwhile candidate and will not get my vote again.
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #356
369. The lesser of two evils is evil, evil get's no more of my support
It's that kind of triangulation that has screwed us for the last 30 years. It's OK to be a liberal, most people would support our policies if we weren't so afraid to give them a chance. If our policies aren't championed, what good is picking the letter in the parenthesis? (R) (D) no diff, our vote doesn't count.
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dbmk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #369
377. So if it ends up with a choice between lesser and greater evil
You will not care which one it will be?
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bigjohn16 Donating Member (747 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #351
378. He was wrong then and he's wrong now. nt
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Bluesbreaker Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
366. Be careful what you say . . .
"Now I'm just pissed off at you, and I'm not afraid to say it."

There should be a knock on your door shortly. It will be visitors from the agency that monitors anti-American troublemakers. They will escort you to the re-education facility near your neighborhood. Welcome the Bush regime reincarnated.
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 02:40 AM
Response to Original message
371. anger requires failed expectations. the bright side? today marks the death of America's Empire.
disappointed, but not surprised. yet it is a good thing for our empire to die, it is about time. it will be unpleasant though, so anticipate a roller coaster ride of epic proportions. might i recommend storing preservable food stuffs and tradable goods.

sleep well everyone. it will get better. just not for the next few years.
:grouphug:
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Bushknew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
373. Looks like DU has run out of Obama Kool-Aid. This is promising for our country.
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tomm2thumbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
374. locking
Not helpful at this time.

(lol - just had to be said)
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 03:27 AM
Response to Original message
375. is it rank stupidity, cowardice, corruption/greed, or con artistry that drives him on this?
whatever the reason, I saw through his hypocritical, smooth-talking, empty rhetorical BULLSHIT quite a while ago. I won't be voting for him again, so he can go to hell for all I care.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 04:02 AM
Response to Original message
379. We need to face the facts.
The president has no REAL power. All the power is wielded by the corporations. Every decision made on the part of the legislature and the executive is made on behalf of these ultra powerful entities.

During the Bush years massive profits were shoveled to well connected business cronies in energy, the MIC, insurance and banking. This massive resource was in turn used to amass even more power and influence. I could see and feel this happening during the Bush Administration-it was tangible. It is "what happened" to our nation, how it was destroyed from within.

Now, the question is what to do about it. People will have to get a whole lot more uncomfortable before there is a popular uprising.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
381. With massive U.S.
Edited on Wed Dec-02-09 05:11 AM by Enthusiast
intelligence resources we should have completely infiltrated Al Qaeda by now. We should be privy to every nuance of their plans. We should know their every location at every given moment. If we don't have this information U.S. intelligence should be considered suspect.

Funny how the U.S. government chose to look at every bit of private communication by its citizenry yet can't determine the plans and objectives of a few terrorists. I call bullshit on that - total bullshit.

U.S. intelligence has the most incredible UNIMAGINABLE technology at their disposal yet we are scared to death of Al Qaeda? This, the country that until recently had to deal with the threat thousands of intercontinental ballistic nuclear missiles? Give me strength.

It's all a lie, people.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:43 AM
Response to Original message
384. and how many are going to vote for him in 2012 anyway? nt
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