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An Open Letter to President Obama from Michael Moore

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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 04:45 AM
Original message
An Open Letter to President Obama from Michael Moore
Dear President Obama,
Do you really want to be the new "war president"? If you go to West Point tomorrow night (Tuesday, 8pm) and announce that you are increasing, rather than withdrawing, the troops in Afghanistan, you are the new war president. Pure and simple. And with that you will do the worst possible thing you could do -- destroy the hopes and dreams so many millions have placed in you. With just one speech tomorrow night you will turn a multitude of young people who were the backbone of your campaign into disillusioned cynics. You will teach them what they've always heard is true -- that all politicians are alike. I simply can't believe you're about to do what they say you are going to do. Please say it isn't so.
It is not your job to do what the generals tell you to do. We are a civilian-run government. WE tell the Joint Chiefs what to do, not the other way around. That's the way General Washington insisted it must be. That's what President Truman told General MacArthur when MacArthur wanted to invade China. "You're fired!," said Truman, and that was that. And you should have fired Gen. McChrystal when he went to the press to preempt you, telling the press what YOU had to do. Let me be blunt: We love our kids in the armed services, but we f*#&in' hate these generals, from Westmoreland in Vietnam to, yes, even Colin Powell for lying to the UN with his made-up drawings of WMD (he has since sought redemption).
So now you feel backed into a corner. 30 years ago this past Thursday (Thanksgiving) the Soviet generals had a cool idea -- "Let's invade Afghanistan!" Well, that turned out to be the final nail in the USSR coffin.
There's a reason they don't call Afghanistan the "Garden State" (though they probably should, seeing how the corrupt President Karzai, whom we back, has his brother in the heroin trade raising poppies). Afghanistan's nickname is the "Graveyard of Empires." If you don't believe it, give the British a call. I'd have you call Genghis Khan but I lost his number. I do have Gorbachev's number though. It's + 41 22 789 1662. I'm sure he could give you an earful about the historic blunder you're about to commit.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mikes-letter/open-let...


Please, Please be the President of Change, Hope and Peace not War.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 04:48 AM
Response to Original message
1. Michael Moore under the bus by the corporocrats in 3--2---1 n/t
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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. He has been under that bus and resurrected many a time here.
but I'm sure I will get many who say I just don't understand it. Silly me.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. His bus status changes from one moment to the next. n/t
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
78. Schrodinger's Bus Wheels?
Have to look under the bus in order to determine who is, and isn't, there at any given point in time?
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 04:49 AM
Response to Original message
2. k&r
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 04:52 AM
Response to Original message
3. the k and the r
We the People tell the generals & the munitions corporations what to do. Theoretically. Let's make it real.
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 04:53 AM
Response to Original message
4. K and R
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 04:55 AM
Response to Original message
5. Hope
I hope the president is listening. MM is right.
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Just-plain-Kathy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
52. +1 ...K&R
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optimator Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 05:05 AM
Response to Original message
7. Also, show the left some respect by not trying to SELL it
We aren't republicans, so words about 9/11, al-qaeda boogeymen, terrorists hate us because we are free, dead or alive, finish the job, will not change 1 person's mind.
The bloodthirsty chickenhawks of the center and right are ALREADY sold.
So show us some respect for once and don't attempt to sell it to us.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
42. +1 'Don't attempt to sell it to us'
:thumbsup: Nothing worse -- and it reminds me too much of gw bu$h. :puke:
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #42
103. I expect President Obama to frame it
in much more intelligent terms than Bush did. This is because he plays to a different audience, a more knowledgeable audience.

It seems he hopes to connect with this real or imagined "great middle" of American politics. I don't think this war supporting great middle exists anymore, if it ever did. Most Americans don't buy into this scary terrorist image the Republicans attempt to create.

The Republicans will hate Obama anyway, no matter what he says or does.
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snake in the grass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 05:17 AM
Response to Original message
8. If you're dead set on...
...killing an empire, this is a beautiful place to do it.



If we are to trust history, then this will be the end of our empire. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
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Jkid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
49. I'll just leave this here.
I know you feel uneasy now
Like on a stormy sea
You are in too deep
I say the tide will surely turn
You say it is hard to let it be
Baby, holding on is the only way
Love will never make it if you should go away

Cause nothing's going to last forever
All we can do
Is to believe in love
Oh, nothing's gonna remain the same
Baby, you'll choose to
Live in this complicated world with me

We are a million miles apart
Like little stars in the dark
We don't realize it
I say distance doesn't matter at all
And you say it is hard to stand alone
Baby, holding on is the only way
Love will never make it if you should go away

Cause no one's going to be the same
All we must have
Is something we can trust
Oh, no one's gonna stay at the same place
Baby you'll choose to
Live in this complicated world with me

Cause nothing's going to last forever
All we can do
Is to believe in love
Oh, nothing's gonna remain the same
Baby you'll choose to
Live in this complicated world with me
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
62. I agree, Snake. But it's the collateral damage here at home that I'm worried about.
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snake in the grass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #62
107. I worry about that too, but...
...the concerns of people like us have historically never carried much weight. I met plenty of officers in the Army who were convinced we could win any conflict simply because we have the "biggest and the bestest" military ever to exist in the history of humanity. I'm sure Alexander the Great's generals said the same thing.

I do, indeed, worry about the citizens of this country, but too few seem to share that worry, which indicates that we haven't hit rock bottom yet. I've no reason to believe that our involvement in Afghanistan will end any differently than it did with the countless others, who attempted to conquer it. When our empire is finally broken, financially and morally, perhaps we can finally grow up and join the rest of the civilized world.
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sad sally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #107
116. "There never was a good war, or a bad peace"...Benjamin Franklin
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
70. +1
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Altoid_Cyclist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 05:59 AM
Response to Original message
9. Brief history of Afghanistan by Adam Ritscher.
Interesting history that includes how and why we became involved and why it might be best for all involved if we find a way out ASAP.


Excerpt:
The story of Afghanistan is in so many ways a very tragic one. Afghanistan is one of the most impoverished nations of the world. It is one of the most war-torn, most ravaged, and most beleaguered of nations. It is a nation that has been beset by invasion, external pressure and internal upheaval since before the time of Alexander the Great. Its people are a people who have endured more than most of us can ever imagine. In fact, for many Afghanis, all that has changed in the last one thousand years are the weapons which have been used against so many of them. It is therefore with great sadness and respect that I tell the story of Afghanistan.

First of all, who are the Afghanis? Afghanistan has historically been the link between Central Asia, the Middle East and the Indian sub-continent. It is therefore a nation made up of many different nationalities the result of innumerable invasions and migrations. Within its current borders there are at least a dozen major ethnic groups Baluch, Chahar Aimak, Turkmen, Hazara, Pashtun, Tajik, Uzbek, Nuristani, Arab, Kirghiz, Pashai and Persian.

Historically the Pashtun nationality has been the most dominant. The term Afghan, for example, generally is viewed by other peoples in the country to refer to the Pashtuns. The royal families of the country were Pashtun, and today the Pashtun represent about 50% of the total population. Tajiks come in second with 25%, and the rest make up considerably smaller percentages.

http://www.afghangovernment.com/briefhistory.htm

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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Glad you posted that.
As a whole, America is still stunningly ignorant of most other countries and people, which makes it so much easier to not care about who is gettng killed and maimed and damaged by our
aggression.
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Altoid_Cyclist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. The US does have a tendency towards tunnel vision when it comes to the rest of the world.
One size fits all doesn't work very well when it comes to trying to install our ideas of what every government should look and act like.

Maybe someday our leaders and our military will learn this.........?


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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
63. Second dixiegrrrl's comments.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 06:13 AM
Response to Original message
10. Obama promised during the campaign that he would increase the number of troops in Afghanistan
Where were the 'disillusioned cynics' then?
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Firstzar Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. "War of Necessity"
No one can say he deceived them!
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. does that mean you HAVE to agree with the stance?
If one actually voted for Obama (which despite some people's insistence is NOT a mandatory requirement for posting at DU) does that mean one is expected to not criticise any policy of his. Interesting view of democracy that one.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. No, but it is disingenuous to suggest that Obama supporters would become
Edited on Mon Nov-30-09 08:09 AM by Freddie Stubbs
disillusioned cynics if he keeps his campaign promises.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. The party is a coalition
Part of the coalition will be OK with this decision, part will not.

There was no viable no war choice in 2008.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. The lack of a viable "no war choice" shows you which part of the coalition is stronger
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. The 25% that has no problem voting GOP
Edited on Mon Nov-30-09 09:54 AM by AllentownJake
However, the left is the traitors.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #25
55. Obama got over 50% of the delegates
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. Yes, many moneyed "blue dogs" are invested in the War Machine's private corporations
up to their eyeballs. All those BILLIONS speak loud - Money TALKS but good luck with getting us peasants to send our children to go KILL and DIE for oil pipelines and natural gas, i.e., geopolitics.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
56. If most Democrats believed that conspiracy theory BS, Obama never would have won the nomination
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. Withdrawing is the ONLY choice. Congress has NOT declared war.
Think LBJ if you don't think this will affect Obama. With or without a Universal Draft. :grr:
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
60. Does It Matter If Things Have Changed Since The Campaign?? More Than Ever
people should by now have realized how very corrupt Karzi is. They have an election, then there's protest, they decide to have a re-do, the opponent then capitulates and it's Karzi all over again.

Even IF people who voted for Obama only stick to "what he said at the time" you CAN argue that he hasn't flip-flopped or something. HOWEVER, is it not understandable that when things change, and not for the better but for the worse, that one might want to reconsider decisions previously made?

What has ever been accomplished in Afghanistan by MORE WAR?? I can't even fathom what it's like to be a native of this war torn country. I saw a documentary about a year ago and it broke my heart when I saw how they lived. To think that we can turn that around when MOST of the country is rural and tribal and very poorly educated seems folly to me. Do I sound heartless, I guess you could say so, but I sincerely don't think we can change what has been such a fractured place for decades and decades.

I doubt anything we do will make that much difference, because in the end the amount of corruption there now will probably ALWAYS be there in some form or another. It's been that way since Alexander The Great so I've been told!

So do we tear apart our country even more, trying to succeed when so many before us have failed? Our own country is falling down and yet we think we can go off and try to fix what seems impossible. Catching clouds seems an easier task. Will we ever learn?

Beware... The Military Industrial Complex! And we all know who said that and it seems nobody was listening!

JMHO


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OhioBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
69. exactly. n/t
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. The "disillusioned cycnics" thoght it wrong then and thus have not chnaged.
And what was the choice? McPalin?

I know you're not stupid, but that assertion you're trying to make IS stupid.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. So, they must have been quite cynical to vote for a candidate who did not share their views
If they are now disillusioned it is because of their own actions, not President Obama's.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. I think the expression was in 2008
Edited on Mon Nov-30-09 10:06 AM by AllentownJake
He's better than the alternative. Of course if they had voted the other way to a Nader or other third party, they would be villified for handing the election to John McCain.

Lose-Lose 25%ers win in directing party policy once again because they have demonstrated their willingness to walk in the past.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. Obama didn't become the nominee by accident
He won a majority of Democratic delegates while campaigning to increase the number of troops.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. He sure did while hammering his only viable opponents
for voting for the Iraq War.

Stop trying to re-write 2008.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
57. He stated that the war in Iraq was a mistake and that the war in Afghanistan, although poorly waged,
needed to be won. How does that differ from his current policies?
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. I was among his supporters
You see, I'm a dumb-fuck, yellow dog, base Democrat.

The world is compromise. Obama was my compromise. Actually, he was the best left standing at the end. My first choice never got into the race at all, not even an exploratory committee. So I really did have two choices. Obama or nothing. I chose to vote Obama. That doesn't mean "my actions" cased us to be where we are today. It is HIS actions that are causing us to be here today.

By the way, you would be really good at Fox Nooz .... being adept at rewriting history and all.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #45
58. What specifically am I rewriting about history?
Obama ran on a platform of increasing the troops in Afghanistan in order to win the war. That stance did not cause any other candidates to jump into the race or boost the prospects of any of his opponents.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. He was remarkably non specific.
But in the end, so what? Here we are and some people are cheering his march to war. Many more are defending it.

I'll be on the sidelines, thanks.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #58
101. Freddie, Obama won on hope, youth, diplomacy and the economy, stupid
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 04:22 AM by Mithreal
It was not a mandate for the AfPak. Maybe it was clear to everyone that Obama would increase and continue to heavily rely upon mercenaries, and maybe they all knew he would allow Blackwater and others to fight in Pakistan, but maybe they didn't. I for one was more worried about whether the Republicans would steal another election than whether we could have an honest policy debate about Afghanistan or anything else.

When I was handing out campaign literature door to door for Obama, I don't remember any of it explaining what was going on with Afghanistan. The complexities of Afghanistan were minimized during the campaign and we focused on the economy and McCain's weaknesses.

Hope was the bigger message, and youth was nearly as important. Also diplomacy, there were stark differences between Bomb, bomb Iran McCain and statesman Obama.

Not having any difference in policy on a particular topic takes it out of the debate if everyone agrees, even if it is a cynical ploy to control the issues being debated.

No one fought over the Afghanistan debate and I think you may have drawn the wrong conclusions from that.
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #45
61. And Now It Will Be "His War!" And The Election Is Over! None Of Us Dared
vote otherwise and to keep saying "would you have preferred McPalin" is moot! We voted, some would have wanted another, but in the end Democrats voted for THE NOMINEE! It's really that simple!

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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
51. He's already increased the troops, putting an additional 24 000 of them there.
he doesn't need to KEEP doing it, unless the whole notion of that war is flawed.

Which it is. Like Michael Moore says, "you should call Genghis Khan but I have lost his number."

That sums it up!
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Apperently he does not believe that the notion of that war is flawed
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #54
115. So? "Yes, We Can" or "I Got This"? Can't stand the folks who
want to take "we, the people" out of the equation.
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
71. I am happy to say that I did not donate a penny to him.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
73. You are still an asshole!
Oh and I can't believe I let you slime off IGNORE!


Sorry, my bad, you are now ---- VANISHED!


PS~ You are correct about Obama and that's why I voted against the war monger in the primaries. Too bad most Obamaniacs were so dull to not catch what you and I both gathered during the primaries. I opposed his policies while most doe eyed little Obamanuts thought he was an anti-war presidential candidate. He was never an anti-war candidate by any means.

Sadly you are probably the most accurate observer of Obamas policies here.
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
74. Obama also said he was against DUMB wars.
It was obvious to me that Afghanistan was a DUMB war in 2001. By now it should be more than obvious to anyone with a functional brain.
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
81. I'm sure that's what got him elected...
:eyes:
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 06:18 AM
Response to Original message
11. Despite rhetoric, any & all US presidents are hired/installed to be the next "war president."


K&R for MM!
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 06:33 AM
Response to Original message
14. President Kill has no interest in hippie talk.
nt
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
21. So who should we believe: Michael Moore or Pres. Obama?
Edited on Mon Nov-30-09 08:45 AM by QC


I rest my case.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. That is a little over-simplistic, aye. The FACT is that al Qaeda is no longer in Afghanistan.
Remember fellow American, it was al Qaeda NOT the Taliban who attacked us on 9/11. We've WON ... unless we wish to morph our enemy into "the hotel keepers." If we allow Mission Creep, then we can pour another TRILLION bucks into the MIC. Mission Accomplished for the power elite contractors! :grr:

If President Obama truly believes that Afghanistan is the *good* war, then pull all the troops out of neighboring Iraq and FORCE the Congress to declare war. That way we can implement a "universal draft" and give all we've got to win Obama's *GOOD* war.

If we learned nothing else from the Vietnam War it's that that half-measures only keep us within a quagmire.

Come on patriotic Obama Supporters, go down to your local enlistment offices and SUPPORT your *War President?*
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Dr. Strange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. Well, let's see...
one has won an Academy award and the other has won a Nobel Peace Prize. Hmmm....
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #21
35. LMFAO!
:rofl:
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #21
36. Michael Moore

At least he gives a damn about the working class.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. Yes, but he's certainly not as dreamy as you know who! n/t
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. Let them eat Job Summits!
nt
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DerekG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
48. Could someone tinker with QC's picture?
Make it look like Obama's wading in blood.

You know, to fit the occasion.
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #48
80. done
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DerekG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #80
88. Much obliged, wuushew
Oh my stars and garters! Aren't you glad that this fine specimen is the one bombing wedding parties, instead of that crusty codger McCain? (I bet he has manboobs.)
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #80
113. I would dearly love to see that as an OP
It would be a powerful statement of the dream acceding to blood-soaked reality.
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scentopine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #80
118. wow - quite excellent. perfectly captures the moment.
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
76. How about believing history
Edited on Mon Nov-30-09 11:07 PM by tinrobot
No empire has survived a conflict in Afghanistan, why should we think we're any different.

Besides, we don't have any good reason to be there. We went to capture Bin Laden. Apparently, he's not there anymore.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #76
85. Was just reading an astonishing comment about a report on the BBC . . .
as I recall it, large numbers of Afghanistanis were rounded up and moved off

and then the food supply was cut off?

Anyone see anything like this story?

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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
28. This will be the final nail of hubris
that puts the US into the coffin of second tier nation. We will follow France and Britain, condemned by our ego and self-delusional sense of superiority.
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Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
30. Repubs are Counting On Obama Increasing Troops To Ensure Can't Lose Status For Them...
A surge of US troops into Afghanistan will likely be ineffective without a corruption free government there to implement any gains the troops on the ground make. (On that point see Compendium on Historical Soviet Victories in Afghanistan --a remarkably short read).

What it will do is eat up any funds that might be used to increase job production and rebuild the economy WITHOUT imposing a large tax increase to pay for it.

You can just imagine the Repub attack ads in the next election cycle. Obama is raising taxes, his plans to reinvigorate the economy have failed, unemployment is still rising, and deficits are exploding. And don't forget how Obama has mismanaged the Afghan War.

Sometimes the hard decision must be made. Let's hope Obama makes the right one.
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #30
50. Do you mean his hard decisions
to raise taxes, fail to reinvigorate the economy, raise unemployment, and explode deficits while mismanaging Aghanistan?

Which choice has he made right so far? Are we really to the point that Hope And Change means we Hope He Gets One Right For A Change?

Pretty sad
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Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #50
112. Its no secret Bush/Cheney destroyed everything and now Repubs are blaming Obama for it...
Just imagine where we would be if Repubs were in control of the WH and Congress.
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babydollhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
31. kick
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AVID Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
37. K&R
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newtothegame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
38. Obama can do what he wants. He made history. All the magazines say so. n/t
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
39. K&R for MM.
Speaks for me.

As this thread demonstrates, The Pro-War "Centrists" are running out of credible arguments to support their position.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
40. Kick!
:kick:
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
41. It is not your job to do what the generals tell you to do. We are a civilian-run government.
amen!
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
43. It ain't just the generals we hate, Michael.
Take a closer look at that link you posted within this sentence:

There's a reason they don't call Afghanistan the "Garden State" (though they probably should, seeing how the corrupt President Karzai, whom we back, has his brother in the heroin trade raising poppies).

Hell, it doesn't take that close a look to see who's really greasing the bro's palm. Just read the title:

Brother of Afghan Leader Said to Be Paid by C.I.A.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/28/world/asia/28intel.ht...

Well, well, well! But of course, it's all a coincidence, it's not like the CIA is profiting from the global drug trade or anything like that!
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
47. final nail
meet coffin
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Krashkopf Donating Member (965 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
53. # 90 rec . . .
and proud of it. Thanks, MM!
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Clear Blue Sky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
64. Excellent!
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scentopine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
65. War - The Stimulus Package for the Rest of Us
Wall Street gets trillions, the rest of us get fucked. Obama is so busy proving himself worthy of being called a republican I cannot hold back my contempt. The pentagon thinks he's a "pussy" so they pick on him - he rolls over, right wingers think he's a "pussy" so they pick on him - he rolls over, and so he's doing nothing but trying to prove he's not a coward.

They say its realism. I say its real cowardice.

Fuck all you corporate centrist republican wannabees who will turn tail and vote for the next republican pretty face who isn't a walking lobotomy. You really won't be happy until we are a third world economy. Two goddam wars in Asia, trillions of cash handed over to Wall Street with no questions asked and now this. Outsourcing is accelerating, wages dropping (except for CEOS) and health care? Oh its just tooo hard and toooo expensive. Torture? Oh - it just isn't realistic to prosecute, on and on.

Fuck every last one of our democratic leaders and unprincipled centrists and "realists". Just switch parties and make it official. Trotting out a few wedge issues that Democrats disagree on with republicans doesn't hide the fact that there is now one party in the USA and it is the Fortune 500 war party. Everyone else is simply meat for the free market.

What the hell is going on here? Where is the party's moral center? Peace prize my ass. Democrats won the election and are trying to be more republican than the last republican. And we twitter and patter on about history. Yes, a black man can be president and protect and favor the wealthy just like a Caucasian. This victory should have been more than just a victory for race, it should have been a mandate for real change.

This is a great era for a single man, a great loss for justice and the 95% of Americans who aren't rich. Watch as health care reform out does S&L reform, energy reform, wall street reform, Middle East reform, and all the other free market reforms being spread by cold blooded and murderous centrist/realist cheerleaders.

Kissinger was a realist. Nixon was a realist. Bush was a realist. I'm fucking sick of goddam realists and need to see real leadership vision and change that doesn't take more money and blood from me to the 5% run the nation. Everyone one of these political fuckers is just lining their own pockets with fortune 500 cash.

Wall Street has their stimulus and now we have ours - complete with an all expense paid trip to Afghanistan to collect it. Obama the war president, impotent against corporate influence and abuse and torture - now he's ready to open a can of whoop-ass overseas. Jesus, it just never ends.

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thegoodfight Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #65
89. Cannot stand the word caucasian
Human genome studies have proven that there is no single genetic equivalent to 'Caucasian'. People with less melanin in there skin will do just fine or white if you please :) Or...how about the human race!
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scentopine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #89
117. You know you are right - my fingers were flying, its quite awkward -nt
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dreamnightwind Donating Member (863 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #65
91. +1
Nice, I enjoyed that, speaks for me.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
66. President Obama, if you're hellbent on listening to the generals, here are two you should
hear out before you make your decision: Smedley Butler, Holder of the Brevet Award for Heroism and TWO Congressional Medals of Honor, and incidentally the man who saved FDR from a coup, AND Dwight Eisenhower, Allied Supreme Commander in WWII and two-term President of the U.S. General Butler wrote the book "War is a Racket" describing how America fights wars on behalf of the war profiteers and war materiels producers--not for freedom, democracy, etc. As General Eisenhower left office in 1961 he warned the American people of the Military-Industrial Complex that had insinuated itself into every town, state, and into the highest reaches of the nation. Neither of these men had anything to gain by saying what they did.

There have been so many wonderful replies in this OP that I wish I could acknowledge them all. I can't, so here's a gigantic REC and kick.

Thank you Unapatriciated.
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woodcarver Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #66
75. Allegedly, Eisenhower's original speech script was written...
..."the Military/Industrial/Congressional Complex" but he was persuaded it would be to "impolitic" to include Congress. I don't know how true this is and I haven't found a reference to it (haven't looked real hard), but true or not, the statement is certainly true.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #75
86. As I hear it ... it was the MIIC . . . including "Intelligence Complex" . . .
Also now hearing a story about Obama being connected to CIA thru Business International?

Anyone seen anything on that one????

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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #86
102. Connected to the CIA? Even if true, unsure what it means.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #86
110. If not "connected to" the CIA certainly influenced heavily by it. As is every President
since Eisenhower--and especially Kennedy.

Read "JFK and the Unspeakable; Why He Died and Why It Matters" by James Douglass if you want the definitive analysis of CIA influence over Presidents.

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unkachuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
67. K&R....n/t
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bluesmail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
68. K&R
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mullard12ax7 Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
72. but EVIL lurks everywhere and we need to point big guns at herdsmen!
and the Asian and European heroin crop needs to be threatened so the completely discredited and failed capitalist system in the U.S. has some leverage in the area.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
77. Great letter-but Moore forgot to ask Obama to give that so called "peace prize" back. nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #77
87. Amazing that you can run two wars and get the "peace prize" . . .!!!
And stoke 'em up some more with fresh troops - !

:eyes:
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #87
94. The kicker is: 100,000 troops to chase 100 al Qaeda members in Afghanistan & 300 in Pakistan
The thread below shows what the "war on terror" is REALLY all about:


The Washington Post reported that there are 100 members of al Qaeda left in Afghanistan and about 300 in Pakistan. With Obama's troop increase to about 100,000, that will be 1,000 troops per terrorist in Afghanistan or 250 per terrorist in all of the ''AfPak'' theater.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #94
98. Plus US/CIA created Taliban/Al Qaeda . .. financed it . . . used it to bait
Russians into Afghanistan -- US was in there 6 months before Russians came in --

evidently, they "hoped to give Russians a Vietnam type experience" -- !!

And we were financing Taliban/Al Qaeda up until just before 9/11 -- and who knows

if we ever stopped?


Different subject . . .

Did you hear or read anything about a large number of Afghanistanis -- presumably homeless -- being

moved off somewhere? And the food supply then being shut down? Starved?

Read something about it at Common Dreams and think it was a BBC story -- ?????

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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
79. Democratic Kick.
:dem:
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
82. Thanks for posting this...
I'm hoping he's the president we want him to be, not the president some people thought we MUST have wanted him to be because of the rhetoric of the campaign trail.

GET THE FUCK OUT OF AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ. We're beginning to bleed all over the fucking country.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
83. Comments from . . .
another website --

3 pages of them -- and NOT good --



by justice --

Mr. President, do you realize that you are a war criminal, subject to prosecution?
Do you realize that you are continuing to shred our constitution?
Do you realize that our country is being controlled by corporations, and not by we the people?
Do you care, or are you complacent, in the destruction of our country?
We the people are fearful that we are losing our constitutionally limited democratic republic. and you are allowing this to happen.




abvodvarka@yahoo.com November 30th, 2009 8:55 am

Mike, get a grip, you speak as though we had some small degree of democratic leverage on our hood ornament in the White House. That was gone long ago, Buddy. When JFK was ambushed in Dallas in the most suspicious of circumstances and we were in a land war in Asia within a year and a half, what did we do? When leading political figures of the sixties were gunned down in succession, King, RFK, Malcolm, Wallace, what did we do? When our industry was being whittled down to nothing by NAFTA and other "free trade" treaties and most of our fellow citizens were being forced into debt peonage, what did we do? When our election in 2000 was clearly stolen by the "Supreme" Court, what did we do? When our Constitution was rendered voluntary by the panic created by an "attack" that still has no rational official explanation, what did we do? When we entered into a permanent state of war for reasons that were proven to be total lies, what did we do? Pardon the repitition but the time to speak of this problem as though electoral efforts might solve it is long past, might have been able to do that forty years ago. Now, if there were any hope of waking our sleepwalking fellow citizens from their consensus trance, the solution is not in electoral politics but in boycott, non-cooperation and the general strike. Good luck, Mike, you've done your best, much appreciated.
Tony Vodvarka
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #83
99. And just a PS on the second comment . . . "What did we do?" . . .
should echo in our ears every time one of these subjects arises -- !!!

I expected all of the US to be out in the streets as W stole the 2000 election -- !!!

Who else thought so?

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
84. Nice try, Michael --
But I think it's obvious that we can no longer presume any president is a free agent

who will do the will of the people.

And fascists don't listen --


What we have been doing in trying to change the Democratic Party isn't working --

We can't continue to do the same thing over and again and expect different results!


Michael Moore has provided excellent leadership -- as far as he can go.

Many are expecting him to be another Martin Luther King -- could happen but if so,

don't think he's ready for it yet.


The need to stand up against the fascism which crossed the threshold of our nation long ago

is becoming more obvious. Do we wait until most of us are homeless and starving?

PLEASE . . . what's Plan B, folks?

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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
90. Could someone please post one of those lists of all the great things Obama has done because I'm
feeling rather cynical and disillusioned
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
92. It may be a mistake to think common sense or the rule of law have anything to do with this.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
93. Come on people! It's a CHESS MOVE!
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #93
108. Vulcan chess, no less! n/t
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earcandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
95. Well said! I totally agree with you.
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 01:19 AM by earcandle
Here is a song for your participation in this urgency to stop more war.

A Robert Wyatt cover Lullaby for Hamza

Thank you for your courage and commitment to the quality of all human life.
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dreamnightwind Donating Member (863 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
96. I'm confused...
How has the Afghan army persevered against the greatest force on earth for 8 years?
I imagine they'll surrender soon, though, especially with these extra troops we're sending. You go Barack, USA!

We're not fighting the Afghan army? I'm confused. I guess we're actually fighting against Al Qaeda, just using Afghanistan's territory to do it. Amazing how Al Qaeda has persevered against our military for 8 years, they must be an awesome force.

We're not fighting this war against Al Qaeda? There are only from 100 to 200 of them in Afghanistan? OK I'm really confused. I guess we're actually fighting the Taliban to save their women from oppression and to keep Al Qaeda from having a sanctuary from which to launch attacks on the U.S. Mighty kind of us, especially the part about defending women, who could be against that?

We're actually making payments to the Taliban, and saying we can work with them? And the Afghan women are little or no better off under the US-installed regime than they were before our invasion? I'm getting dizzy now. I guess we're fighting those vague but no doubt evil "insurgents" that pose a threat to the stability of the region.

Many of these insurgents are just opposed to foreign occupation? Well, imagine that, they don't like us running rough-shod through their country. Ingrates. After all we've done for them.

Al Qaeda's now in Pakistan in the uncontrolled territory near Afghanistan? And Pakistan has nukes? And Osama's supposedly in Pakistan, not Afghanistan? Confused again. I suppose we're fighting in Afghanistan so as to establish a territory from which to wage war on Pakistan? What, that's not quite right either?

I'm so sick of these wars that defy any straight-forward definition, whose real purpose is to use warfare as a means of controlling access to and power over a region's physical resources, and to dominate their political processes. It's evil, and we have no right to do it, whether our president has a D or an R after his name.

WMD, terrorism, domino theories, biochemical, nuclear, liberating the locals, liberating their women, preventing future atrocities their evil leaders might commit, stopping the spread of the godless communists, I've heard them all, and they were all B.S.

It's all about access to and control over resources, and the corporations our military really serves who demand access to those resources anywhere on the planet.

It's time to primary Obama. I know, good luck with that, but that's where my energy will go, hopefully I'll have lots of company and we can at least get a sizable portion of the electorate to stand up for what's right.

Not sure who should be the primary opponent, but we really need someone to get behind. I'll support Kucinich if no more viable candidate emerges, I was for him anyway last time, but this time it's more important than ever to establish an alternative to the war party.
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bring_em_home_bush Donating Member (263 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #96
114. this post is pure distilled awesomeness
nailed it totally.


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dreamnightwind Donating Member (863 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #114
119. Thank you, that made my day! eom
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Autonomy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
97. Silly Michael
Why is he pretending Obama did not run on a pro-Afghanistan war platform? (and that's not to mention the silliness of the rest of his argument)
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rollingrock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #97
100. It seems to be the only campaign promise
Obama has kept so far.
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Autonomy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #100
109. Untrue
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:25 AM
Response to Original message
104. I've thought about the Afghanistan
war many times. I can not see how the Afghanistan War and escalation is going to help us in the long term. It seems to me that our messing about in foreign affairs is what brought on the terrorist attacks to begin with.

There have been many undesirable unforeseen consequences to America's foreign policy in the past. Afghanistan and Iraq could bring about more of these.

The Vietnam War still haunts this country. Look at the pain and suffering it caused us even years after. I lost a friend to agent orange exposure many years after the war was over.
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yellowwood Donating Member (550 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:38 AM
Response to Original message
105. I Agree
Where will the Democratic Party get its enthusiastic supporters in the next election? George Bush must be smirking.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
106. Oy you too Mike?
Didnt anyone pay attention to the campaign?


We heard you say it but just didnt believe it!
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
111. So the generals are always for the war?
How many times did I tell republicans that because I was opposed to the war did not mean I hated the troops?

Now we see this theme that the generals are all bad. Guess so long as it's someone at the top.
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