Behold! A glimpse at the hell the Swiss have just avoided...

[Libertas1776]

Behold! A glimpse at the hell the Swiss just avoided by banning the construction of any new minarets in the country
Look at it, standing there in its infernal, Turkish made, plastic glory, defying everything that is Swiss-iness. :sarcasm:


What the Swiss people have done, via the "tried and true" democratic practice of putting a minority group's civil liberties up to popular vote, is say no to the "black sheep" that continues to invade and threaten the hegemony of the Swiss culturescape i.e. immigrants, and more specifically Muslims.

(Swiss People's Party 2007 poster "Creating Security")

In other OPs on this subject, I have seen some DUer's proclaim it to be a good thing. That they are simply trying to maintain and keep intact the architectural landscape of Switzerland, for the sake of tourism, historical preservation, identity, etc and so forth. Some have stated it is a rejection of religious architecture and it is a good thing. Really, then by that logic all of the quaint, picturesque church steeples adorning the Swiss countryside should be toppled to the ground because they were putting religion in people's faces. Others have said that "Well, the countries from which these Muslims originate from do not permit the construction of Christian steeples, Jewish synagogues, etc. so why should they yield to their demands for minarets?" Well, aside from the fact that most Muslims living in Switzerland originate from places like Kosovo and Turkey, both tremendously far cries from the theocracies of Saudi Arabia and Iran, this is still supposed to be a democratic country that enshrines human rights and religious freedom into its laws and traditions.

You don't gauge how to treat immigrants and minorities by how some societies that share their faith treat yours. You throw such preconceptions out the window and you afford these people the same rights and privileges that every Swiss born is guaranteed. That is what makes these societies better than any theocracy of any religion. And that is why people of all creeds and races flock to such places.


I don't know, maybe that is just the American in me talking. The American who was raised to believe that all are created equal and all have a right to religious freedom. I myself am an irreligious agnostic, but that doesn't make me intolerant of other people's beliefs, so long as they are tolerant of mine. I would hope for cooperation and friendship amongst differing parties, such as the one between Muslims and Jews in this Northern Virginia community http://wisdomofreligion.blogspot.com/2009/08/synagogue-part-time-mosque.html If more people could live their lives in such a fashion, this world would be a much better place. Sadly, there are plenty of my countrymen who would would not agree with my sentiments and who would happily jump on board the Swiss People's Party band wagon. That's the way it is, all over the world, but not always.

Well, now you may be saying "these minarets are interfering with my beliefs and my right to be free of religion." Well, I disagree. The real moral of this story is not a rejection of minarets, but rather an embracing of intolerance, xenophobia. The real outrage is that people fell for scary commercials and large posters with foreboding messages.
The referendum outcome in Switzerland was the result of, as stated before, bigotry and xenophobia, but also fear...especially fear, plain and simple. How do you get people on your side? You scare the shit out of them and you make posters like these...



Yep, a dark and ominous poster with a dark looking woman wrapped up in a dark burqua and of course, the dark, ominous minarets jutting out of a Swiss flag, like half a dozen threatening missiles. On top of that, you rile up the feminists and scare them with the bogeyman of sharia law and patriarchal tyranny, that these minarets (of which out of the 150 or so mosques and prayer rooms in Switzerland the incredibly high count of 4...count 'em FOUR...already exist and get this, they were planning on constructing 2 more of these minarets! And none of which emanate the call to prayer. My god, hide your children and lock the doors:sarcasm:) are just a stepping stone to theocratic rule, once again, despite the fact that...

"close to 90 percent of Muslims in Switzerland are from Kosovo and Turkey, and most do not adhere to the codes of dress and conduct associated with conservative Muslim countries." http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/30/world/europe/30swiss.html

Never mind any of those pesky "facts" and "rationalities," let fear and irrationality; xenophobia and bigotry prevail.

[eleny]

1. "Swiss-iness"

:rofl:

[Libertas1776]

6. Too Colbert-esque?

Hey, if truthiness is a word now, why not Swiss-iness? ;)

[eleny]

7. I like it - made me lol

:hi:

[laughingliberal]

26. Perfect! I'm still laughing! nt

[Historic NY]

59. Has lots of holes in it !

[alfredo]

2. Find the movie "Bread and Chocolate." It's very instructive.

http://www.amazon.com/Bread-Chocolate-Nino-Manfredi/dp/B00005U1YR

Editorial Reviews
Amazon.com
Nino Manfredi gives a wonderfully comic and sensitive performance as Nino, an Italian working as a waiter in Switzerland. Absent three years from his wife and children--for whom he is theoretically raising money to join him in Swiss prosperity--Nino is a little like David Bowie's dispirited alien in The Man Who Fell to Earth, an outsider too reinvented to return to his roots. Lonely, earthy, and clumsy among the polished locals, Nino has a series of Chaplinesque disasters that ultimately cost him his work permit and resident status. Instead of leaving the country, however, he sneaks back in and stays with a reclusive, beautiful woman (Anna Karina) with something of her own to hide. The adventures don't end there: like a modern Candide, Nino moves from one situation to the next, clinging to his optimism but also a strong suspicion he can never return home. Director Franco Brusati (Forget Venice) has made a rare comedy here that is both light and tough at the same time, with a hero whose clownish trappings don't so much soften his anxieties as make him more sympathetic for suffering them. --Tom Keogh

[Libertas1776]

13. Sounds like a great flick

I guess the Swiss have never really taken kindly to immigrants. Now that they are coming from Eastern Europe and the Middle East is probably all the more worse for them.

[alfredo]

15. They aren't treated too kindly in that movie. The lead actor

is the revelation. He's so good.

[krabigirl]

3. great post. That poster is scary....wow.

[BolivarianHero]

4. Between this and the gay-hate proposition in Merika, I have lost my faith in direct democracy...

Honestly, people are getting so stupid that Strauss is starting to sound more and more rational.

[Odin2005]

19. Prop H8 killed any respect I had for direct democracy.

Fuck the vulgar mob.

[StarfarerBill]

5. Xenophobish-ness and racism-ness; how quaint.

[imdjh]

9. If Islam were a new political party based in Idaho, how would people feel about it?

[StarfarerBill]

11. I imagine they'd be up in arms, literally.

[scarletwoman]

8. What civil rights have been denied? Mosques haven't been banned, they're still free to practice

their religion.

And I don't understand why Switzerland shouldn't have the right to restrict immigration.

sw

[Libertas1776]

10. The fact is the campaign

behind the ban was organized by a right wing isolationist Islama-phobic party. The real question wasn't about the aesthetics of minarets, since many Swiss locales already regulate the construction of such religious structures and how they fit the local aesthetics. The real question was about Islam and Islamic immigrants. This was a referendum about people's fears and phobias of Islam in their country all riled up by a campaign that only succeeded in restraining relations between faiths and minority groups.

[scarletwoman]

14. I know that it was a right wing campaign. What I don't get is why Switzerland should be under any

obligation to take in Islamic immigrants.

[Libertas1776]

22. Well, by your logic

why should they be "obligated" to take in Christian immigrants, or Hindu, Sikh, or Buddhist for that matter. What difference does that religion make. As a democracy, the state must be open to legal immigration.

[scarletwoman]

27. "As a democracy, the state must be open to legal immigration." Really? Who says?

That's a truly outlandish assertion, imho. A democratic state has the right to make its own rules for itself, doesn't it?

And no, the religion of any prospective immigrants doesn't matter one whit. However, it is specifically Muslim immigrants that are under discussion here.

It is certainly the perogative of ANY state to chose who is allowed to live within its borders. Do we in the U.S. not have immigration laws of our own?

[Libertas1776]

28. What you are speaking of

are the egregious practice of quotas on specific races and nationalities. Yeah, in the US we use to do that. We would limit the amount of certain non Western European people entering our country and when we reached the quota we would cut them off and send others packing. Or sometimes we would ban them outright. Like when we barred most Asians from immigrating to US from the 1920s until the 60s.

So evidently you espouse the return of racial quotas and outright bans on certain people's because of their place of origin. Nice, very nice:eyes:

[scarletwoman]

29. Oh, don't be ridiculous. Do we or do we not have immigration laws in the U.S.?

Having immigration laws =/= quotas. All countries that have borders have immigration laws. I can't just pack up and move to Canada if I feel like it.

[Libertas1776]

31. Of course we have immigration laws. All countries have immigration laws.

But that isn't what you said, was it. What you said was "What I don't get is why Switzerland should be under any
obligation to take in Islamic immigrants." You specified a certain group of people. If they, including as you like to put it "Islamic Immigrants," meet all necessary criteria, then they have the right to immigrate. Plain and simple.

[olegramps]

53. Should a country be obligated to take all immigrates?

Should a country have to take in immigrates who adhere to a religion that believes that the only valid form of government is a theocracy? Should a country have to take in people who refuse to assimilate, learn the nation's language, become citizens, etc.

I am not challenging you; just asking your opinion since it appears that you are pro-immigration without any restriction especially in regard to religion.

[LeftishBrit]

43. They';re not obliged to take in ANY immigrants at all; but discriminating on the basis of religion

is nasty.

[Ikonoklast]

20. Try moving to Saudi Arabia and build a cathedral.

Get back to me when the playing field is completely level.

[liberalpragmatist]

23. Yes, because Swiss Muslims are responsible for Saudi policies

You seem to think that all Muslims are the same and that any Muslim is responsible for the actions of another Muslim. You also seem to endorse some kind of creepy collective punishment.

The idea that something is okay because some other country does something equally bad or worse is the same kind of logic right-wingers use to justify torture. Since Middle Eastern dictatorships torture people, it's okay that the United States does it.

[Libertas1776]

24. Is Saudi Arabia a democracy?

NO. Like I said, we, as democracies, hold ourselves up to a certain degree where we permit all who wish to enter. We are not some theocratic dictatorial state, we are Western democracies, founded in the ideals of human rights and freedom of religion, regardless of the place of their origins.

[Chulanowa]

37. How about Swiss churchs have their steeples torn down?

Much more accurate comparison, don't you think? After all, we're talking about Swizerland. Not Saudi Arabia.

Oh, let me guess. You're someone who thinks that there is no poverty in America because Somalia is in worse shape, that gays should shut the fuck up 'cause Iran is worse for them, and that white people should be in charge because of Zimbabwe's current government?

[LeftishBrit]

39. So Saudi Arabia should be the standard?

Just because Saudi Arabia is run by bigots, that gives everyone else the excuse to be?

Swiss Muslims have nothing to do with Saudi Arabia in any case. Most are of Turkish or Bosnian origin.

[Chorophyll]

56. Right, because we in the west should enact our own policies

on a tit-for-tat basis with monarchies and dictatorships -- as opposed to leading by example. :sarcasm:

[ET Awful]

57. If the law were passed against erecting church steeples, what would your reaction be? n/t

[Ian David]

12. Snow White is gonna be pissed. n/t

[nemo137]

16. Yeah, that top picture just screams "Creeping Sharia" to me.

I mean, never mind that I'd rather spend my time with Kosovar Muslims than American Mega-churchers, we have to keep political Islam at bay.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Amazed that people do not

connect dots.

K&R

[Odin2005]

18. Europe is being overcome with "Eurabia" hysteria.

:puke:

[Turborama]

21. Islmamaphobic Right Wing bigots aren't the only ones who can make scary posters...

Buckingham Mosque ...what fanatics want to call the Palace

=snip=

“We find ourselves in the year 2009, waiting for Rome to fall, waiting for the White House to fall and indeed waiting for Buckingham Palace to fall.”

Choudary said that under sharia law the Queen’s official residence in London would have a dome fitted and a tannoy system to call followers to prayer.

The Palace would be used as a judiciary court for handing down sharia punishments and a detention place for “prisoners of war”.

In addition, the building would become the headquarters of the Islamic States’ supreme leadership and the Department of Information and Culture.

Choudary also called for the Crown Jewels to be melted down into “more appealing jewellery, free from idolatrous engravings or symbols such as crosses or human beings”.

Islam4UK’s website shows mock-up images of the Palace as a mosque and the Crown Jewels being melted.

Choudary added: “At present, Buckingham Palace is nothing more than a hollow building exploited by the rich and withheld from any real use.

“Under the sharia this would never happen, rather the British community would see it converted into a flourishing mosque which would be of a great benefit, not only for those residing in London but also the country as a whole.”

The Islam4UK movement is made up of leading members of the banned radical al-Muhajiroun group which was once led by Choudary. Around 15 per cent of people convicted in the UK of terrorism-related offences in the last decade were either members of the group or had links to it.

More: http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/2009/10/buckingham-mosque-what-fanatics-want-to.html

[Libertas1776]

25. Technically speaking

those fanatics are right wing bigots. That is the very kind of thing that we MUST be wary of. It is one thing to allow immigrants into one's country and allow freedom of religion and expression but it is a whole another thing to allow a minority group of religious extremists to undermine your country's constitution, democratic ideals, and secularism (Although, technically, the UK isn't a secular state what with the Anglican Church etc)

That is where all secular Western Democracies must draw the line. But it is also the fault of many of these governments in Europe failing to really work at assimilating these groups instead of packing them into housing projects and letting their anger fester and be manipulated by extremists.

[Turborama]

30. I've altered the subject line to correct the technicality

Adding Islamaphobic to it clarifies what I meant.

I agree with your answer. However, I know more about the politics in the UK than I do about Switzerland but I can hazard a guess that maybe they are watching what's going on in other European countries (e.g. the UK & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-inob20I_Y0">Belgium) and it makes the general public nervous that there's a slippery slope they don't want to go down. A nervousness which the Islamaphobic Right prey on to their own advantage.

I'm certainly not trying to defend the fearmongering right wing bigots, just trying to be objective and understand both sides of this very complicated argument.

[Libertas1776]

32. I agree,

I think you have summed it up quite well.

[LeftishBrit]

41. Yes, Muslim right-wing bigots can too. But there is a difference between the ravings of a small

banned group of lunatics, and a law passed by 57% of the population.

To mention the two in the same breath is like saying that it would be OK to ban all Christian churches because of the existence of the Phelps family.

[Turborama]

50. I was talking about the use of 'scary posters' by Right Wing bigots on both sides

The reason I mentioned the two in the same breath was to highlight that they are probably both as dangerous as each other.
That's my intended parallel and nothing to do with the analogy you suggested.

BTW did you read my follow up reply in post #30?

[LeftishBrit]

33. Great post; happy to k&r!

[Number23]

34. K&R There are some scarily narrow-minded and ignorant people on DU today.

[barbtries]

35. excellent op

i wasn't aware of the swiss issue. agree with you. find it sad.

[Touchdown]

36. I know I should be more caring, but I'm not.

I think it's refreshing to see a country respect it's gay people more than their religious fanatics.

But... I'm an American, where that will never be.:(

[cali]

40. I think it's dispiriting to see people

lumping all Muslims together as religious fanatics.

[Jester Messiah]

47. True, the muslims are being singled out.

Expand the ban to steeples as well.

[Touchdown]

64. Ok, let me lump Christians in there too.

Happy now?

[cali]

38. really terrific OP

wish I could rec it more than once. thanks.

[Firstzar]

42. Ya-HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOS!

Now we know where Cheney can flee if the legal system starts doing its job!

[Echo In Light]

44. K&R

[Catshrink]

45. What's the Swiss position on Golden Arches?

[burning rain]

46. Swiss tend to be pretty insular, not so keen on immigrants flocking thither in the first place.

They're anal about zoning, community standards, and respect for surrounding architecture. There's also the dislike of Islam.

I wouldn't say Americans are welcoming toward immigrants--just indifferent, as we tend to be toward fellow citizens, period. Come here; do what ya wanna do; sink or swim like the rest of us.

[TicketyBoo]

48. Maybe I just have too many other things

to worry about, but I'm trying to figure out exactly why I should care about this.

[BlueMTexpat]

49. I am a US national, resident in western Switzerland, and I have

commented on this result in another thread already.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7113534

In the three westernmost cantons, Geneva, Vaud and Neuchatel, the majority of voters did NOT support the ban. I am proud of those voters, as well as of those others who showed their tolerance even if they were in the minority in all other cantons. The Swiss are certainly no more xenophobic generally than any other "western" nation, although, in my experience, it is the Scandinavian countries who are clearly among the world's most tolerant.

While there is no good excuse for this result, the ban's being approved has badly shocked, shamed and embarrassed a generally tolerant liberal majority here, some of whom probably didn't even show up to vote yesterday. (This is one reason why I have little patience with those who say that they won't show up to vote in the US in certain circumstances. There is ALWAYS a choice, even if it IS the "lesser of two evils." If you don't vote at all, you have not put your money where your mouth is.)

I do not believe that this result will be the end of the story and am hopeful that it will lead to some teachable moments generally.

*******
Just a few thoughts for those who keep insisting on using the example of not being able to build a cathedral in Saudi Arabia as justification for banning a minaret anywhere else. That is a bit of a RW red herring and plays into the general ignorance of and bigotry towards Islam. The US generally seems to select as "friends" those countries whose governments, religious or otherwise, are among the most repressive, e.g., Saudi Arabia. We all witnessed how * and his band of Merry Halliburton cronies practically destroyed Iraq, one of the most laicized Islamic countries in the ME, with a significant Christian minority. Thanks a lot!
In several countries where Islam is THE dominant or A dominant religion, such as Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Turkey, Kosovo, Bosnia, Muslims and Christians have freely practiced their religions and lived together peacefully for centuries. In Iran, hardly a model of religious or political freedom, there still exists the largest Jewish minority in any country of the ME ... and most consistently refuse to emigrate to Israel. India has significant Muslim and Christian minorities and for centuries, they have generally co-existed peacefully. Many, including myself, still believe that the British did everyone a disservice by championing the partition of India and Pakistan. We are still living with the fallout from that terrible and arrogant miscalculation.
Two countries in the world with the most significant Muslim populations are not even in the ME, nor are the majority population Arabs. They are Malaysia and Indonesia. While the majority population in both practice Islam, both are also multi-ethnic and multi-religious to a truly enviable extent. We could learn a lot about tolerance from both.

[theblasmo]

55. Excellent Point n/t

[Douglas Carpenter]

60. this should be made into a separate post! thank you for your educational comments!! God Bless you!!

:yourock:

[Capt_Nemo]

51. K&R

[Rebubula]

52. On the flip side...

..people here would be ready to defend a Muslim nation that wanted to ban Christian churches or Western influences.


Just sayin...

[Chorophyll]

54. Well said. nt

[MindPilot]

58. This thread is just more evidence of how religion divides us.

Imagine....

[spoony]

65. Yeah blood's really being shed in this thread

If this is "division" what do you call Afghanistan threads? Apocalypse?

[Douglas Carpenter]

61. kick and recommend!!! kick and recommend!!!!

[marshall]

62. I don't believe the ban calls for the "toppling" of existing minarets

At least in the way it is worded, it restricts the construction of future minarets.

[Libertas1776]

63. Vatican and Muslims condemn Swiss minaret ban vote

Religious leaders across the world have criticised Switzerland's referendum vote to ban the building of minarets.
The Vatican joined Muslim figureheads from Indonesia and Egypt, as well as Switzerland, in denouncing the vote as a blow to religious freedom.

France's FM Bernard Kouchner expressed shock at the ban which, he said, showed "intolerance" and should be reversed.
But European right-wing groups welcomed the result, calling for other countries to take similar measures.

More than 57.5% of Swiss voters and 22 out of 26 cantons - or provinces - voted in favour of the ban on Sunday.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8385893.stm

http://www.dw-world.de/image/0,,4834590_4,00.jpg
Photo source AP

European politicians react to Swiss minaret ban

European reaction to the vote in Switzerland to the construction of new minarets has been mixed. Many leaders were critical, although some rightist parties said they wanted similar votes in their countries.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4946616,00.html

[Bluebear]

66. It looks like a motel. Thank God the Swiss are safer due to banning architectural highlights

[B3Nut]

67. Sicherheit Schaffen? Safety Sheep?

Are you KIDDING me? Ay yiy yiy...I guess Americans aren't the only people with a penchant for nomenclatural buffoonery...sounds like something you'd find on an idiotic safety motivational poster in a depressing workplace...

Of course, sheep are an apropos descriptor of those prone to xenophobia...

[from outer space]

68. Here's how they do it in Bad Voslau

Media driven hysteria is a poor substitute for experienced reason.
I thought you would enjoy the following, which popped up in my youtube inbox today: A solution to an Austrian mosque construction dilemma that took all points of view (how democratic!) and resulted in a very workable, albeit imperfect, yet fittingly elegant conclusion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCPpfSi71-Q&feature=sub