Are DFH DUers REALLY out of the Dem mainstream?

[placton]

During the longstanding, often vitriolic, discussions here about Obama and the current Congressional Dems approach to governing, it is often argued that DUers who (like myself) dissent from the current direction, just don't understand we are not part of the real party - which is more conservative.

It seems that is not true. Staying home in '10 and '12 is not some DFH option, only being considered by us purity freaks. A huge number of Dems are gonna do just that, if things don't change mucho pronto.

"Two in five Democratic voters either consider themselves unlikely to vote at this point in time, or have already made the firm decision to remove themselves from the 2010 electorate pool. Indeed, Democrats were three times more likely to say that they will "definitely not vote" in 2010 than are Republicans.
This enormous enthusiasm gap ... seems to make passing legitimate health care reform an absolute political necessity for Democrats. This polling data certainly should be something for Congressional leadership to consider, as they move along the legislative path.
The notion of an enthusiasm gap this year is not exactly new, but we haven't seen numbers quite this stark until now."

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_11/021197.php

It seems the arguments of DFH types like myself that Obama and his enablers are gonna screw the party have quite a bit of validity. One wonders WHY then, our leaders are not interested in getting re-elected? Do they have other, more important priorities? Strange.

[placton]

1. btw the poll is done by Daily Kos

big Obama supporters during the election

[spiritual_gunfighter]

36. I am with you completely

but I am no hippie fuck that.

[msongs]

2. so, what is DFH? nt

[placton]

3. DFH is "dirty fucking hippy"

and here is what Greenwald adds about Obama's approach:

Congress has an important role to play in checking presidential abuses -- a role they've clearly abdicated no matter which party was in control. He's also right that Presidents don't easily relinquish power. But it's hardly unreasonable to object when someone runs for high political office based on clear and repeated promises that they have squarely violated. Whatever else is true, watching Obama embrace extremist policies can still be "disappointing" even if one isn't surprised that he's doing it. I could understand and accept a lot more easily this blithe acquiescence to Obama's record if it weren't for the fact that progressives and Democrats spent so many years screaming bloody murder over Bush's use of indefinite detention, military commissions, state secrets, renditions, and extreme secrecy -- policies Obama has largely and/or completely adopted as his own.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/11/27/civil_liberties

[stevedeshazer]

18. Why didn't you just define DFH in the first place?

That doesn't seem to be a handle most people here would aspire to.

I really don't disagree with you, but when you use code language, you lose people.

[frebrd]

39. "Congress has an important role to play in checking presidential abuses"......

a role they've abdicated because they are too busy participatimg in Congressional abuses at the behest of their corporate masters.

:(

[kid a]

4. whew...thank you!

:hi:

[jaxx]

5. That's really too bad.

I always heard that if you don't bother to vote, you have no gripe coming. It will be quiet around here for awhile.

[BeFree]

6. Ahh, don't worry

Right now the teabaggers are in an uproar. They are enthused, it will fade.

And most of us Dems, after kicking and bitching about Bush for 8 years just want a breather.

But if you want to blame yourself, why, by all means, you are free to do so.

[placton]

7. sorry to bother you with facts

and seems that those of us criticizing are supported by millions

[SammyWinstonJack]

8. +1:

:thumbsup:

[BeFree]

9. Its cool

Criticize is alright, it lets the steam off, and there is plenty to be steamed about.

But to take as sacrosanct polls from a year away and posit that we are doomed is a bit much for this long time follower of polling.

YMMV. _{your mileage may vary}

What is critical is that we stay united against the real villains.

[placton]

11. and Dems are never "real villains"

no matter how many promises broken, and people screwed over?

[BeFree]

13. Whoa, sport

If you have a big bad bug up your ass about Democrats and you want to shit it out on this board, you may be in the wrong place?

Don't you have something better to do? Like convince your neighbors not to vote for pubbies so that you will have more power in the long run?

[ldf]

22. and don't YOU have something better to do?

like helping to convince our democratic leaders that if we wanted to vote for the republican agenda we would be republicans?

maybe our democratic leaders have acted like nothing BUT stool softeners. and we are reacting quite naturally.

you know what i mean, vern?

[BeFree]

24. Ganging up, eh?

Ok. Yes, I am always recruiting people to come away from pubbies and trying to convince Dem leaders to vote for the people's agenda.

To say that "nothing BUT" is quite mistaken. I feel your frustration, but it is misdirected, especially when pointed at me.

There are better targets, know what I mean, Verna?

[ldf]

28. verna?

now THAT deserves a "Whoa, Sport!"

true colors, and all that.

:shrug:

[BeFree]

30. Oops

Sorry, Vern. Don't know why I thought you were female.

I like you colors tho, good strong liberal colors. Don't let me ever dis-encourage you. After all, words here are mere electrons floating thru the net. Getting personal, imo, rarely metes progress.

[ldf]

44. no problem

i didn't check your profile either. i made an assumption, and shouldn't have.

[nashville_brook]

23. you're either with us or against us! b/c dems are incapable of putting politics/profit above people

[BeFree]

26. hmmmm

Now was that a slam on me or the other guy?

Anywho.... Saying "dems are incapable" is not quite true.
However: Saying "pubbies are incapable" is almost true.

[nashville_brook]

43. not a slam on anyone -- and, thank you for proving my point.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

38. I think he is in the right place

He just wants the Democrats in power to actually have Democratic principles and who are you to tell him whether or not he is on the right board?

[TankLV]

10. +1

I criticize because THIS IS NOT THE "CHANGE" I WAS PROMISED AND VOTED FOR!!!

[ldf]

21. i think that there is a sizeable contingent here

solely for the purpose of pushing the dlc line. and i think that should be expected.

they are so close to republicans in overall philosophy and thought processes that they think if they repeat something long enough, it becomes true. and WE are their biggest threat. so they keep repeating STFU to us, hoping to coerce us into doing just that.

polls (other than faux polls) obviously point out a disconnect between supporting democrats for real change, and supporting democrats who will go all out, invest all energies, leave no stone unturned, in their efforts to appease the republicans, being "bipartisan" (which the republicans define as, "just say no", and STILL vote against any democratic proposal), which has the effect of doing nothing but advancing the republican (which can now be described as nothing but Far Right) agenda.

sometimes some actions cause us to have hope, like limiting lobbyists. (money IS the root of this particular evil... bigotry is another issue altogether) but if they just create a loophole (with assenting votes from our dlc leaders) to continue business as usual, and then they are allowed to CONTINUE to do just that, or make the effective date so far in the future it will never happen, expect major "sit at home-itis", come 2010.

if they shout gleefully about finally addressing the healthcare debacle, and pass legislation that requires everyone to be insured (read, give the private insurance companies a WINDFALL of even more profits), and gut the legislation of any meaningful public option, expect major "sit at home-itis", come 2010.

if they, in the guise of passing meaningful health reform, actually REVERSE the rights of some women's choice, even though they pay for it themselves, through their approved insurance policies, expect major "sit at home-itis", come 2010.

mouth platitudes about repealing don't ask, don't tell, with no real progress towards that goal, expect major "sit at home-itis", come 2010.

and the fact that all of us are not willing to continue to sit at the back of the bus, hell, even say Thank You as we are thrown UNDER the bus, well, too. fucking. bad.

the "pick your battles", "keep our powder dry", "the american people aren't ready yet" are no longer acceptable justifications for anything. those are dlc platitudes.

they should pay close attention to 2010. of course by then it may be too late.

no, i'm not a single issue voter, but have you noticed that NOT A SINGLE DEMOCRATIC LEADER has actually put forth the arguement that HUMAN RIGHTS are NOT to be decided by a popular vote?

that is a real biggie for me. but the others are just as important. so, as a whole, the path the dlc is taking us down is not an option.

and i am NOT going to STFU.

[BeFree]

29. Good stuff

But, I tell ya what.... I won't beat up my sister because my neighbor hates Obama.

You have every right to be frustrated. People are not being treated fairly. Never have been, but if we all keep pushing hard enough and keep from beating up our own families, we may just see the people's agenda overcome those who would make slaves of us all.

[hfojvt]

41. maybe there's a sizeable contingent here that wants to defeat Republicans

and are tired of the "Democrats suck" brigade especially with the constant refrain of "Well, we elected Democrats and didn't get everything we wanted (or anything, since the glass is always 99.44% empty in their eyes) so we are gonna not vote, or vote 3rd party and let Republicans win again"

[ldf]

45. strange, i thought we HAD defeated the republicans

but, also strangely, they are still calling the shots.

WE sure didn't have that power when THEY were in the majority.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

37. +2 n/t

[Kaleva]

12. The poll doesn't identify the political leanings of the respondents.

We don't know if it's conservative, moderate, or liberal Dems who say they are going to opt out next election or if the sentiment is across the board.

Anyone can look at this poll and say that the party needs to shift left or shift right or stay the course.

[BeFree]

14. Oh no!!

You mean this poll may not be FACTS?!?!?

[Kaleva]

19. I don't doubt the results. I do think the questioning ought to be better.

As I see it, anyone can take the results and use them to support their own position.

[Kaleva]

15. Also, rec'ed for being informative and interesting.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. It looks like the politicians are going to have to earn the votes this time.

The old, "not as bad" BS has worn itself out.

[jpak]

17. DFHers deserve what they get in 2010 and 2012

and it will be worse than the Bad Obama and the Bad Dem Congress

but they will still whine about everything.

[tekisui]

25. Obama and Congress deserve what they get if they can't keep

a Democratic coalition together. And, they will still whine about how it wasn't their fault.

[Individualist]

32. +1

[ecstatic]

49. How will you personally be affected if republicans take full control again?

Will you do better or worse? The same? You act as if the dem leaders will suffer--um, no, they will still be rich. It is the regular people who would be hurt by it.

[tekisui]

53. I'd be worse off.

I am just saying that the Dems are making their own bed. If they can't keep the coalition together to win, they lose.

[Greyhound]

51. Ooh, the big bad scary republiks are gonna getcha if you don't vote for the people

that fucked you again.:scared:

Sorry dude(ette?), we're not moved by empty threats and we've survived this long with no help from the corporate assholes.

So the Democratic Party wants to be out again (see Harry Truman)? Why should we care, we're going to get fucked either way.:shrug: And it's incumbent on the party to earn our votes, not the other way around.

[LWolf]

20. No.

We're not out of the mainstream, but it certainly helps the status quo to characterize us that way.

[placton]

27. that is what amazes me

the number of dems who really seem not to want change

[LWolf]

42. I see two things here:

First, the overwhelmingly orwellian propaganda the nation is sustained on.

Secondly, those followers that just want their team to win. "Winning" is divorced from whatever they are experiencing. If the wrong team beat them, then they want "change," and will wax euphorically over "change we can believe in." Once their team has "won," that's really the only change they desired.

[pinto]

31. It's worth noting the poll only mentions 2010 Congressional elections,

not the 2012 Presidential election. That would seem to reflect some of the discontent with Congress shown in the same poll, not the Administration. ~ 1 out of 4 Dem's responded "unfavorable" and 2 out of 3 Ind's responded "unfavorable" as their opinion of Congressional Democrats.

85% OF Dem's polled responded "favorable" and 52& of Ind's responded "favorable" as their opinion of Barack Obama.

Interestingly Nacy Pelosi garnered the largest "favorable" reaction among Dem's - 86%.

:shrug:

[Kaleva]

35. This is interesting:

Republicans only give Congressional Republicans a favorable rating of 48% while Dems give Congressional Democrats a rating of 75.

[MisterP]

33. advertised like a Lincoln, drives like a

Ford

[frebrd]

34. Wish I could recc this more than once! eom

[shadesofgray]

40. Let's see, I'm pro-choice, pro-gay rights, pro-civil rights, pro-privacy rights,

pro-public option, pro-separation of church and state, ANTI-war.

And I feel like the Democratic Party is leaving ME, I'm not leaving it. So I'M not out of the mainstream, they are, the further away they get from any of those positions.

But our leaders don't care about people like us because we aren't like rich corporations who can o bribe them to do anything with enough $$$$.

[Vidar]

46. Recommended. Too bad this is the best way to hold the scum accountable.

[Major Hogwash]

47. So, my 80-year old mother is a dirty fucking hippy now?

That will blow her mind when she finds that out.

[Iggo]

48. DFH? Wow.

[ecstatic]

50. Reagan... Bush... Palin...? Will some of you ever learn?

What am I to make of people who cheer the possibility of right wingers taking control again. Why do some of you keep pushing the bullshit meme that there's no difference? Maybe you're really millionaires and want the tax cuts back.

[Greyhound]

52. It's not cheering, it's an acknowledgment that we will not be represented by whomever wins.

If you want to teach a lesson, you would do well to teach the corporate DINOs that they can't win without us and as such they better start acting like Democrats instead of republiks without the courage of their convictions.

Who was it that said the republiks are the party of bad ideas opposed only by the party of no ideas?