Astro-Turf Spammers Posing As Liberals On DU - Do They Exist?

[TomCADem]

I am increasingly seeing right wing talking points being rephrased in liberal terminology to oppose initiatives that are pushed by the majority of the progressive members of Congress, and opposed by the conservadems, Republicans, and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.

For example, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce vehemently opposes Cap and Trade legislation:

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/03/blogs/coopscorn...

A couple of weeks ago, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce was the object of a hoax when environmentalists held a fake press conference in Washington D.C. supposedly announcing the organization's about face on climate regulation. (A representative from the real chamber showed up to set the pranksters straight.)

The chamber has opposed both the cap-and-trade climate bill passed by the U.S. House of Representatives earlier in the year and has objected to plans by the Environmental Protection Agency's to more closely regulate greenhouse gases.

However, here is a post that appeared in a thread regarding the climate change e-mails:

Under H.R. 2454 Cap and Trade Bill, homeowners need upgrades and a license to sell a house
Published on 11-22-2009
http://www.blacklistednews.com/news-6409-0-29-29--.html

This is a long excerpt, but you should read the entire post by Frank Carrio at http://www.nachi.org/forum/f14/cap-and-trade-license-re ... /

Beginning 1 year after enactment of the Cap and Trade Act, you won't be able to sell your home unless you retrofit it to comply with the energy and water efficiency standards of this Act. H.R. 2454, the "Cap & Trade" bill passed by the House of Representatives, if also passed by the Senate, will be the largest tax increase any of us has ever experienced.

The Congressional Budget Office (supposedly non-partisan) estimates that in just a few years the average cost to every family of four will be $6,800 per year.

•No one is excluded.

However, once the lower classes feel the pinch in their wallets, you can be sure these voters get a tax refund (even if they pay no taxes at all) to offset this new cost. Thus, you Mr. and Mrs. Middle Class America will have to pay even more since additional tax dollars will be needed to bail out everyone else.

But wait. This awful bill (that no one in Congress has actually read) has many more surprises in it. Probably the worst one is this:

•A year from now you won't be able to sell your house.

Yes, you read that right.
The caveat is (there always is a caveat) that if you have enough money to make required major upgrades to your home, then you can sell it. But, if not, then forget it. Even pre-fabricated homes ("mobile homes") are included.

•In effect, this bill prevents you from selling your home without the permission of the EPA administrator.

•To get this permission, you will have to have the energy efficiency of your home measured.

•Then the government will tell you what your new energy efficiency requirement is and you will be forced to make modifications to your home under the retrofit provisions of this Act to comply with the new energy and water efficiency requirements.

•Then you will have to get your home measured again and get a license (called a "label" in the Act) that must be posted on your property to show what your efficiency rating is; sort of like the Energy Star efficiency rating label on your refrigerator or air conditioner.

•If you don't get a high enough rating, you can't sell. And, the EPA administrator is authorized to raise the standards every year, even above the automatic energy efficiency increases built into the Act.

TRANSLATION: ANOTHER TRANSFER OF THE WEALTH OF THE MIDDLE CLASS TO THE FAT CATS AT THE TOP UNDER THE GUISE OF "HELPING" AMERICANS. Don't buy the koolaid just because Democrats are selling it.

Sounds very progressive and reactionary. The reference to drinking the Kool-Aid is a nice touch, as well as the reference to FAT CATS milking the middle class. However, someone was kind enough to note that this was a hoax, but not before a few responses expressed concern at these claims

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009... /

What I wonder is the degree to which right wing spin artists are pushing Chamber of Commerce talking points in progressive sounding language on liberal forums?

Usually, if someone says that Big Business is going to benefit from a piece of legislation, I check out whether or not the U.S. Chamber of Commerce opposes it. But, is such an approach the most accurate?

To what degree do Republican operatives pose as liberals to attack progressive causes such as fighting climate change or pushing health care reform?

[Sebastian Doyle]

1. You want to see astro turf spammers in action?

Pull up any of the threads regarding the anniversary of the JFK assassination that have appeared recently.

You'll know the Astroturfers by the "OSWALD DID IT AND NO AMOUNT OF REALITY CAN CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE!!1!!11!!" posts.

[Bolo Boffin]

4. Please check out post #3. n/t

[Mind_your_head]

22. Wow - you're 'connected'......the two posts that I tried to reply with to you were both blocked

and/or locked.

Impressive.

[Bolo Boffin]

23. I have no idea what you're talking about. n/t

[jobycom]

14. Oswald did do it.

You calling me an astro-turf spammer, with my 42K posts and my eight years here? You'd also be calling RFK and Ted Kennedy astro-turf spammers, as well as everyone in the motorcade that day.

[paulsby]

18. don't let the name callers get to you

if it makes me an astro-turf spammer to say oswald did it, then fine. OSWALD did it.

oh, btw. mumia is guilty as fuck too.

[burning rain]

24. I realize I'm being pedantic here.

But there's a general difference between the "Oswald didn't do it" & "Mumia didn't do it" crews. The former overwhelmingly have no affection for Oswald, and condemn the assassination of JFK--they see other guilty parties. Mumia's supporters tend to be parlor radical types who know he did it, and admire him for it, but lack the balls/ovaries to say so, so they say he's innocent instead. Sort of like how raging anti-Semitic Neo-Nazis both hate Jews with a vengeance and deny Hitler harmed any Jews. They just don't have the balls/ovaries to say they heartily approve of what went down at Auschwitz, even though they do.

[paulsby]

30. that's true

and i'll be fair and not forget that there are at least some people who don't say "mumia's innocent" which is just friggin' ridiculous, but say "he didn't get a fair trial". the latter is more arguable than the former. imo, neither are true, but the former just completely ignores metric assloads of facts.

as for the neo-nazis, i'll quote jello biafra: "in a real third reich, you'd be the first to go"

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

2. No. n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

3. Please check out DU rules.

Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, conservative, Republican, FReeper, or troll, or do not otherwise imply they are not welcome on Democratic Underground. If you think someone is a disruptor, click the "Alert" link below their post to let the moderators know.

...Do not accuse entire groups of people on Democratic Underground of being conservative disruptors, or post messages which spread this type of suspicion. Do not post topics that arouse suspicion against new members, or members with low post counts.

[TomCADem]

27. I Am Not Attacking Anyone - I Am Referring To A Right Wing Tactic - Remember McCain's Campaign?

We see astroturfing on the conservative side. But, do you remember during the 2008 campaign when conservatives were encouraged to post on liberal blogs to be disruptive? Conservatives were encourged to describe their efforts, which would then be high lighted. Its the internet equivalent of yelling at a town hall meeting for the purpose of disrupting it, rather than trying to encourage discussion.

Isn't this a legitimate issue? Afteall, we talk about astro-turfing on the right wing side where corporate funded groups coordinate false grass roots efforts.

My question is to what degree does this occur on the liberal side? Explain to me why this is not a legitimate issue to discuss? Heck, Rachel Maddow has had entire shows on this subject. I just think it is naive to assume that Freedom Works type operations would restrict their efforts to supporting right wing astro turf, and ignore liberal astro turfing on the grounds of principle.

[TexasObserver]

5. Probably. There are probably a few dozen posting heavily here.

Cops never do any wrong. Check.

Military never does anything wrong. Check.

If you don't support the war, you don't support the troops. Check.

Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. Check.

9-11 was solely caused by a band of goatherders from Afghanistan and Pakistan. Check.

MLK, RFK killed by lone gunmen with no conspiracy. Check.

Buy gold! Check.

Guns, guns, guns! Check.

etc.

[Bolo Boffin]

6. Please check out post #3. n/t

[kristopher]

9. No one is being accused or called out.

This is a legitimate discussion of a real issue related to validity of information being posted.

[Bolo Boffin]

13. You have listed a specific set of beliefs. Another poster has indicated a specific set of theads.

The whole damn thread is flamebait.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[L. Coyote]

7. D'oh. Good Morning Rip van Winkle

When did you wake up?

[sudopod]

8. Are you ready for a blog attack?!

Usually, whining that the opposition on the internets are "paid shills" means someone is getting their ass handed to them. However, the pattern with these "magic email" posts sprouting everywhere like mushrooms in cow shit might actually fit the bill. I just can't believe that people are actually that dumb...as if siding with the fossil fuel industry is somehow "fighting the power." Ha.

http://open.salon.com/blog/christopher_di_spirito/2009/...

[kristopher]

10. Yes I do.

There are concerted efforts on the part of PR firms to hire people who specialize in "new media" which includes internet discussion forums.

It is a given.

[cliffordu]

11. I'm for rent.

[kristopher]

25. Add "expert in new media social networking" to your resume. nt

[annabanana]

33. +1

[LostInAnomie]

12. I really doubt it.

I think a lot of people are so orthodox in their beliefs that they cannot imagine anyone having an honest disagreement with them. So, to resolve this dissonance in their mind they decide that the person with the opposing view has to be a plant, troll, bot, paid off, etc.

We overestimate our importance in the world if we really think that people are really paying money to disrupt our board.

[Mimosa]

17. ^ True ^ Doubt there are 'paid trolls' on DU

I know enough about public relations and advertising to be fairly certain that this board would not be targeted by paid propagandists.

From when I was a lurker long ago and after joining I've always noticed the spectrum of perspectives represented on Democratic Underground is wide. Nothing's really changed. There are extreme far left members, center left, moderate MOR dems and those whose viewpoints are more conservative than the median here.

[paulsby]

21. bingo

self importance combined with myopia and hardcore partisanship.

[jobycom]

15. Without any doubt. They are getting better, too.

They used to be easy to spot. They'd start off with a couple of common phrases. "I really hate Dumbya and have always voted Democrat since Kennedy was in office, and my daddy voted for FDR, but now I wonder if Bush is right about this Iraq thing..." or whatever. Or, "I'm very concerned about John Kerry's pattern of lying," or "Can anyone explain the Laffer Curve to me, because it seems to make sense and I need someone to talk me down."

They've slowly evolved. I saw it a lot in the way they killed Hillary's campaign. Drudge would take something completely out of context and start a headline like "Hillary flip-flops on Iraq," or "Hillary supports a ban on flag burning," and seconds after hitting Drudge it would be blasted all over DU with thread titles like "Conservative Hillary sells out again!!!" Before the truth could come out, the hook was set, and a lot of DUers (and other Internet liberals) fell hook, line and sinker for it. Hillary ws just the first example I thought of, and probably their most successful example of it (not that she didn't give them help now and then), but there are others.

Even during the 2000 election I hung out at a lot of web sites and argued politics, and there were people claiming to be liberal spreading all the talking points about Gore being a serial liar, or Gore being insane, or Gore being a conservative. In many ways it's just a continuation of the underground campaigning they've always done, throught the whisper wire and through church flyers and such.

It will get more sophisticated. That's the way the game is played. But yeah, there's no doubt they do that here.

[snot]

20. k&r'd

[bigtree]

26. old question

. . . just as irrelevant. Debate the ideas and you'll be just fine.

[Blue_Tires]

28. they have existed as long as i've been reading ('02)

and a huge influx is certain pretty much every even-numbered year...some are easy to spot, others more deft in their artistry...you have to read them for a long time before noticing a distinct pattern

[donco6]

29. Without question.

Just like the paid DLCers.

[petronius]

31. I think there are far more DUers who have decided that anything they disagree with

must be paid spam than there are actual paid spammers. Certainly the 'paid-post' industry exists, but my guess is that the legitimate DUers with divergent opinions vastly outnumber the amateur trolls/moles, who in turn vastly outnumber the paid spammers...

[athenasatanjesus]

32. Astro turf fake liberals exist on EVERY forum site

Ive seen people on the espn boards or warcraft forums doing this the most frequently I see this on is youtube.

[cbayer]

34. Locking

Please do not start threads accusing individuals or groups of members of being disruptors. If you feel there is a member here solely to disrupt, please use the alert button.

Thanks,

cbayer
DU Moderator