Once upon a time in America, it was possible.

[bvar22]

In the 50s, 60s, and 70s,
it was possible for a NON-College educated Working Class person to:

*Keep a good job with "benefits"

*Earn enough to raise a family in relative comfort

*Have a stay-at-home parent to raise the children

*Buy and pay off a comfortable home in the suburbs

*Provide good Health Care to his family

*Own and operate a relatively new car

*Take a REAL vacation every year

*Send his children to a State University

*Save enough to retire in comfort and dignity

This standard of living was The NORM in Pre-Reagan/Pre-DLC America.


In the 50s, 60s, and 70s,
it was possible for anyone to attend a State University and graduate DEBT FREE if they were willing to work part-time.

Those things would be possible TODAY if we had a Political Party that represented The Working Class.



"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[SammyWinstonJack]

1. K&R

[daleanime]

2. If we had a political party...

and the ability to have an honest discussion about this county.

[cliffordu]

3. K&R

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

4. A party that would represent people whose majority of income comes from a W2

and not a 1099.

[Chan790]

149. Um...

what's wrong with 1099 workers? I happen to be one, as are most of the people I know who:

• make the movies and television programming you watch
• write the books and magazine articles you read
• perform the lion's share of the daily-operations work of small NPOs.
• work for small PR firms.
• work as grantwriters and fundraisers.
• create works-for-hire in virtually every media industry.


I love when people on DU talk about things they know nothing about. Guess who else gets paid on 1099, all those people who are being pushed to work at temps or contractors against their will by corporations so they don't have to provide them with benefits. Yeah, we're really the problem.

[dflprincess]

162. Perhaps the poster should have said "1099-Div"

I get that kind of a 1099 for a mutual fund that pays about $100/month in dividends. It's a fund I inherited from my grandmother so it is entirely unearned income. Even though I just roll it back into the fund, I pay federal & state income tax on it, but not FICA.

I have received a couple 1099s in my life for actual work I did and they are a whole different thing from the -DIV.

[Tesha]

168. Or a 1099-INT. (NT)

[QC]

5. You must be one of them Tropskyites I keep hearing about!

Excellent post! This is the issue that nobody seems to want to talk about: the class war and how our class is losing it.

[Jackpine Radical]

7. Tropsky Lives!!1!

[QC]

17. COMMIE!!11!!!!1

I bet you are into that free love, too!

[Jackpine Radical]

25. Hell, I have das Kapital downloaded on this computer in German and English.

And, in keeping with thw spirit of the whole thing, I didn't pay for either one. (Thank You Project Gutenberg.)

[loudsue]

146. Jackpine, you're my kind of radical!

:applause: I wish more people in this country knew how to read! I can't help but think that a little education might have saved us, and we wouldn't be in this mess.

[geek tragedy]

6. for non college-educated WHITE PEOPLE it was.

Blacks? Living in dire poverty.

Hispanics? Go pick some lettuce, Jose.

[Jackpine Radical]

9. Ah, the unappreciated greatness of Reagan!

He leveled the playing field by eliminating social mobility for EVERYONE.

[geek tragedy]

14. No, the point is that anyone pretending the days of Dixiecrats

were the good old days is peddling bullshit.

It was never the case that all Americans had access to such benefits. We had an economic apartheid regime throughout this time period.

To put it another way:

Do you think black people long for the opportunities they had in 1957?

This love of the party of Orval Faubus and George Wallace is nauseating.

[geek tragedy]

15. A working class person enjoys the paradise of 1963 America:

[Greyhound]

20. That whooshing sound was the point flying right over your head. n/t

[Jackpine Radical]

26. Thank you. I hope at least it was a near miss.

[Jackpine Radical]

21. I understand your point.

Nevertheless, there had been some progress for minorities since the days of Reconstruction. I think I was in my first civil rights demonstration in 1963. I had dear friends marching at Selma in '65. I know about that history, believe me.

I was making a different point, about the general sinking of the American middle class in the Great Rollback of the New Deal.

[ipaint]

23. I don't think that is the point.

If it was possible back then for whites, it's possible today for everyone.

Just look at the tax rates and the resulting concentration in wealth. There is no reason we can't have a strong middle class of all colors today except the wealth hoarders at the top have something quite different in mind.

[anonymous171]

28. EXACTLY! nt

[geek tragedy]

41. Then the OP should have made that point.

Trying to whitewash a period of economic apartheid ain't the way to do it.

[bertman]

105. Sometimes posters try to make a broad point and don't factor in that they have to include

an explanation or footnote or aside to cover every possibility that might offend someone who wants to nitpick the fuck out of their OP. As you have done here.

But then, this is a Democratic forum and we're used to someone being aggrieved no matter WHAT someone says. Mostly.

[whathehell]

128. Thank you!

[bertman]

141. My pleasure, whatthehell. I'm used to that kind of crap, but sometimes it gets my goat.

[whathehell]

167. You betcha...It do get tiresome!

[dorkulon]

164. Racial equality is why it's no longer possible...

because social programs plummeted in popularity among whites once minorities became potential beneficiaries. In other words, the reason those old programs were popular is that they only applied to whites. It's a sick catch 22, but it's real. You can track civil rights progress in direct correlation with the popularity of libertarian economic theory.

[Lorien]

74. "Ignored" is always towing the Reagan line, isn't he? nt

[QC]

175. Kinda makes one wonder, doesn't it? n/t

[JANdad]

44. Why is it then that

so many blacks moved north during this time period (detroit) for Auto jobs????

[geek tragedy]

48. The question is why any stayed behind. nt

[NOLALady]

157. Fear?

Family?

But, yes, the 50s and 60s were the good ole days for some. For others, not so much.

[Fire1]

52. Exactly. n/t

[GReedDiamond]

55. The grandfather of my son, a Hispanic,...

...without a college degree, accomplished all of the things stated in the OP, literally, during the exact time frame in the OP.

You're painting with the broad brush.

That is not to say that racism was not a problem then, as it still is now.

The dawn of Reaganism and the expansion of the fascistic/"corporations first" mentality with its infiltration into the Democratic Party through the formation of the DLC was the beginning of the end of this Country, and we are everyday getting deeper into the shit caused by the general disparities in wealth between the uber-rich and everyone else, whether they be black, white, brown, red, yellow, purple or green.

I'm otherwise done with this thread, so flame on.

[phasma ex machina]

56. Ford had taken the lead in hiring black workers in the 1910s and 1920s

Henry Ford’s massive Willow Run B-24 bomber plant at Ypsilanti, Michigan, hired thousands of southern migrants during World War II, mostly whites. Ford had taken the lead in hiring black workers in the 1910s and 1920s, but changed course in the early 1940s after black workers joined the United Auto Workers union. (Walter P. Reuther Library, Wayne State University )

[geek tragedy]

60. Wait, I thought those black workers had it made during the

era of the 1940's and 50's that everyone in this thread is pining for.

You mean that's not true?

[dflprincess]

110. You are deliberately ignoring the point of the OP

but willful ignorance and faux outrage over social injustices is to be expected from a DLC shill.

It's a pity you and your wing of the party isn't as concerned about the economic and social injustices in today's society as it pretends to be about those that happened in the past.

[saracat]

103. Not everything is about race.

[cali]

126. women? You actually think all this was possible for women?

[shirlden]

130. I'm a woman

and the answer is, yes. I was in a gay relationship and we had a nice home, a Thunderbird, a van, a camper, a boat and money in the bank. All from a good union job with mega benefits.
Ah, yes, those really were the days.

:party:

[cali]

140. you are the fortunate exception.

[MuseRider]

8. Hear that?

That is me clapping for you.

We have no party, not really. Not one that really gives a darn about the regular people in this country. Government is a rich man's toy now and a way to get even richer. I does not have to be like that. It could easily be like it was back then.

[truedelphi]

72. It was astounding for me to read in Zinn's "History of America"

That the Republican Party

The Republican Party

took out newspaper ads in support of the striking workers during the 1890's.

Now we don't even have Democrats supporting the working people.

[MuseRider]

94. I still have not read that book!

My oldest son has it and his outlook changed a lot after reading it. He was always a liberal but had a definite libertarian streak. He still does but not without understanding.

[DireStrike]

147. This was the old republican party of lincoln

In otherwords, the democratic party of today.

[sandnsea]

10. For some working class folks that was possible

My folks were able to have the home and ONE car, a camping vacation every 3 years or so, and that's about it. He was an auto body repairman. We went to the doctor when we were sick, never had any kind of check-ups. I was raised in California and nobody ever told me college was free there and I never found it to be free. I tried to go to college in 1975 and couldn't find any help and my parents sure couldn't pay for a state school.

So while things were definitely better in the 60s for working families, let's not go crazy here. You still had to be with a really good union to get what you're talking about.

[Kermitt Gribble]

136. I guess maybe it depends on whether

you lived in an industrial area. I grew up just north of Pittsburgh. We had a steel mill in our community that employed 12-14,000 people in it's heyday. Both of my grandfathers worked their whole lives there, both raising a family of 2 kids, having a modest home, a new car every couple of years and at least 1 real vacation a year. My Dad had a job with a union trucking company and was able to do the same. I worked at that same steel mill after high school (1989), but it only employed 2500 - today it no longer exists.

[hfojvt]

158. thanks for that reality check

which was largely ignored. Working class prosperity was not nearly as universal as the OP and supporters seem to think.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

169. Yes. One car.

And no internet, no mobile phone, no cable TV, and all of those other things that people these days appear to assume have always existed.

[Double T]

11. The 'American Dream' had to be given up so that an extremely small.........

filthy, stinking super rich class could have it all including your's, mine and ours. Nothing a hardcore revolution can't fix!!

[truedelphi]

95. + 1. n/t

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bvar22]

39. I did it.

It took me 6 years, but I did it in the late 60s and early 70s.
I worked in the Gulf of Mexico Oil Fields (non union) during the Summers and sometimes a Winter Quarter if I was too poor to afford the State Tuition.
I Waited Tables part time during school, and held several other part time jobs provided by the University.
There were even periods when I could afford to drive an old beater.
I graduated DEBT FREE in 1973.

MANY people did it.
It wasn't just possible, it was common.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[C_Lawyer09]

13. Good point, and I think relative

to how many homes were purchased by those whom in reality couldn't afford them. I think so many people have been chomping at the bit for so long, for a little slice of the American dream that used to be very attainable, that when it avails itself, the damn breaks. This things that you list (great list by the way) are a great measure of where our state is at. A damn shame. I will add, at risk of being unreccomended by the sensitive portion of this blog, that fixing this problem will involve more than legislation of programs, it will entail some short term pain toward gaining solvency. Toward that end the 1.2t house bill would be a no go, and there would have to be a quantifiable way to pay, not a murky promise to pay for it by eliminating inefficiencies. Also stop the big nation building/Pak nuke protection project or whatever it is in Afghanistan, and also scale down the 737 posts/bases/outposts we man in 130 or so countries.

[TygrBright]

16. Well... any WHITE person.

I agree that economically, on average, the 50s 60s and 70s were far better for most people who weren't rich.

But those benefits were not well distributed in terms of gender, race, religion, ethnicity, etc.

Today we have fewer benefits and more crap being served to those of us who aren't rich. But the distribution has become slightly more equitable. Note, I am not saying it IS equitable. But there have been improvements. Better access to fewer opportunities for more people.

We call it "progress" in Corporatist America.

sadly,
Bright

[lonestarnot]

24. Good point!

[Jackpine Radical]

27. That's pretty much what I was trying to say above.

Thanks for putting it more eloquently.

[Deja Q]

65. And that's what people were fighting FOR in the 1960s and 1970s! Equality.

Helping standards go up for ALL. That's what they wanted. Or many, I shouldn't lump them all into the same group...

But then, some on DU also bash folks like Bill Cosby and others who stress the importance of discipline and education...

In short, the truth is in the middle, but I digress...

As if it matters, standards are going down for everybody, regardless of how much education and experience they have or can get. (Even knowing the concepts isn't enough. Employers want experience so how the hell does one get viable experience in a large organization? By scribbling out piddling databases for a church for free? "Free is not a business model" aside, a small church isn't the same venue as a large corporation. Corporations need to train from within too. They want it both ways...

I won't argue against "corporatist America" because that's increasingly incontrovertible...

[Bette Noir]

115. My mom was Puerto Rican, with a strong accent.

She got a Master's degree, and taught high school. She was able to retire, with a pension, at 55.

My dad was a guard at a department store, and was able to buy a nice home in a good neighborhood, and support a family of 5 on one income until my mom wanted to go to work, once the youngest (me) was in school.

We went camping one weekend a month, and two weeks every August.

When I went to college in 1973, tuition at UC was $180/quarter. Cal State was considerably cheaper, and community colleges were free.

[geek tragedy]

18. The glorious opportunities the OP would have us return to, from 1963:

The good old days, when white people called the shots and black people knew their place.

[mike_c]

47. that's just plain hatefulness....

The OP does no such thing-- it does the opposite, in fact, and you know it. So why piss on a positive message? The OP lionizes an American ideal that OUGHT to apply to everyone. If it didn't in the middle of the last century-- and I remember those days too-- the OP does not call for the return of segregation, race riots, and the KKK. It does not call for return to the Cold War. It doesn't ask for Americans to spy on their neighbors for Joe McCarthy, or for the return of back ally abortionists.

The OP calls for restoration of the dream of social and economic justice for all Americans, and you want to piss on that. What a shame. Bitter much?

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JoeyT]

84. Hooray for generic accusations of racism.

"You know, I really like cheeseburgers."
"I bet the cop attacking this young black man liked cheeseburgers too! What are you, racist?!"

[leveymg]

122. You've made your point, gt, so many times you're verging on troll alert

The OP articulated an important point about the loss of the American Dream to working class people and how this has happened under both the Reagan Republicans and the DLC right-wing. You say that Dream never existed because it excluded people of color. You make a valid point, but do it over and over again to squat on the OP's thread. We all hear you. Now bugger off.

[nashville_brook]

134. that is a wild mischaracterization of the OP. institutionalized racism has nothing to do with

the message of economic security the OP was citing.

but, i forget, you're at war with Democratic wing of the Democratic Party, and, the OP said "DLC" in the subject line. So you're here to fight the good fight. Carry on.

[rucky]

143. Do you really think that quality of life and civil rights are mutually exclusive?

I would hope not.

[ipaint]

19. Buy insurance from health ins. companies, that didn't kick you off for a pre-existing condition,

at a reasonable price and without the need of a mandate.

[lonestarnot]

22. Gone and it's not coming back.

:cry:

[Lorien]

82. Election reform is what we need

that would go a long way toward restoring democracy.

[rubberducky]

29. Ya know, when I read these kinds of posts, what seems to be forgotten

is our intense materialism since those years past. Most of us had no cable, we cooked our meals at home, we weren`t "into" designer articles, our phones were mostly "party-lines". We fixed our own cars or knew a "shade -tree mechanic", we fixed our broken tv`s,toasters,etc.. We weren`t inundated with tv ads telling us what we absolutely MUST have. Many, many of us "made -do" with what we had instead of racing out to get the latest and greatest stuff (that we could probably live just fine without). We lived in WW11 era affordable homes, no air-conditioning. You learned how to set up the fans to push the air through the house, just like you figured out which way to move the tv antenna to pick up one of the few stations in your area. We played our records over and over again, when they started to wear out you learned when you had to push on the stylus to get past the "skips". Times were different. Was it better? My point is that your OP fails to point out that people lived differently back in the day than they do today.

[Greyhound]

46. We've allowed the pursuit of crap to usurp any standard of living.

What was, while far from perfect, was the result of community. That one could support a basic standard with relative ease made us the envy of the world.

The differences today are that corporations are much larger and exert more power over everyday life and our economy was far more insular. We made almost everything ourselves and our businesses made their money selling to us.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

109. Oh, so if you need AC to function, you're a greedy materialist?

I grew up in one of those postwar suburbia houses. 40 x 40 house on a concrete slab, the lot was 60 x 101, on one of the last 4% V.A. loans handed out in 1953.

The plumbing pipe for sewage that went out to the main line in the back yard was made out of TAR PAPER. It collapsed after about 15 years.

The floors were wood - but they were rough -- because they were not varnished properly in the first place. The varnish wore off in a matter of months.

The slabs of all the houses in the hood were cracked after ten or fifteen years.

Oh and I never got a new, storebought dress until I was in high school and threw a hissy fit to get one. Mom had this thing about handdowns, although my parents always drove used Cadillacs. Go figure.

At night I was scared shitless trying to go to sleep, because I could hear the rats racing around in the attic. And we were constantly battling big tree roaches. This was middle class???

There were lots of things we did not have. Rich people had the following: Two bathrooms, a laundry room instead of the washer and drier in the garage, any carpet at all other than a bathmat, varnished floors that didn't wear away, a garage big enough for a car and other things, and central AC.

We had a couple of totally inadequate window units. We never had the house fully air conditioned. Dad worked two jobs for fifteen years (Rotating shift work and practicing law). He went to night school on the GI Bill and that enabled us to be middle class.

I have lived in Texas my whole life and fans are NOT a substitute for AC. Humid air can hold quite a few pounds of air per cubic yard. Air conditioning takes the humidity out of the air as well as cooling it. When it's 80 to 100 degrees and the humidity is 50% or more, it's quite unconfortable as well as bad for your health. When you sweat in that kind of heat, the sweat does not evaporate and you do not cool off.

Attic fans make it worse. Do you know what a convection oven is? That is an oven with a high speed fan. It cooks the food faster. Sitting in front of a fan in hot humid weather makes the heat WORSE by blowing hot air around. There are plenty of old people who are too poor to afford air conditioning. A well meaning charity may give them a box fan but it may not cool things off enough to keep them out of danger of heat exhaustion or heat stroke.

The main thing I remember about my childhood is that it was miserable at home. My mother would be bright red in the face and neck, with sweat running down her face and neck. She would be miserable, wearing a sleeveless top and shorts and trying not to collapse. Even after menopause she was still terribly hot. She cussed all the time about how Dad should work harder so we had AC (which is a different issue).

We did not get air conditioning in the school until I was in high school in 1968. It was a new school where the central air was built in.

Many a night it was too hot to sleep, because it was still 85 or 90 degrees at midnight. I stayed up and read long novels. I finally got a small window unit in my room in high school, so it blew across my feet.

When the heat is that bad all you can do is stay inside in the AC and not do anything outside for about four or five months out of the year. AC is a necessity in most of Texas, mainly the eastern half which is humid subtropical.

Nobody has any energy to do anything when there is no AC in the South. If AC was not common, the South would not have grown so much in population.

[KillCapitalism]

171. I agree, AC is a complete necessity in some places.

We had a mega heat wave here in 1995. Several hundred died and 90% of those deaths were people who did not have AC in their homes.

[Hardrada]

116. We also didn't have seat belts and people smoked like factories.

[rucky]

142. True. In alot of ways we sold ourselves out. n/t

[onenote]

30. ahh, life was such a bowl of cherries back in the 50s, 60s and 70s

unless of course you were a person of color or female. Its no picnic for people of color or women today either, I might add, but statistically, the things you cite as evidence of the "good old days" were even worse for people of color or women (or anyone who was openly homosexual, which was next to no one).

Of course, a few other facts might suggest the good old days aren't something some of us would like to see return, such as:

lower life expectancy at birth
longer average working hours
smaller percentage of high school grads completing college
40 million cars registered in 1950 (one per every 4 people)..today its over 140 million registered cars, or around one car for every two people...someone has been buying new cars it seems.

The steady increase in some of these measures has levelled off in the last decade or so, but even as levelled off, they are better than the numbers in the 50s or even the 60s or 70s.

Is everything wonderful today? Of course not..not even close.
Was everything better back a few decades? Of course not...not even close.

[ipaint]

31. Perhaps spending less than an hour listening to someone who knows what they are talking about

will help you understand the OP's point.

The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class
Elizabeth Warren

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A

[onenote]

34. maybe having an OP that was fact based would have helped

[ipaint]

59. Those are facts. A just distribution of wealth that reaches down

the economic ladder provides more opportunities for better lives. With the advances we have made in civil rights since then the advantages would spread to more people if that was the case today.

You don't want to acknowledge them, oh well.

[geek tragedy]

61. Well, ask 100 African Americans if they'd prefer to go back

to the 1950's and 1960's, or to have the country return to the social justice conditions of that time period.

[ipaint]

68. If I ask 100 African Americans if they would take the economic

distribution of wealth from the 40's to the late 60's and combine that with the civil rights advancements since then you are telling me they would today prefer civil rights without economic justice.

Really?

[geek tragedy]

70. Then argue for redistribution of wealth, But don't argue that a time

when the vast majority of job opportunities were forbidden to anyone who wasn't a white, outwardly heterosexual man is the ideal.

We have to look forward, not backwards.

[ipaint]

77. That's ridiculous.

The only time in the country's history there was such a redistribution of wealth was back then. If we don't look back and learn what went right we'd be fools.
That is what the op is advocating. A return to the same economic policies as back then. Only today it would help many more people of all races and sexual orientations.

Nobody in this thread is advocating a physical return to the 50's including a roll back of all civil rights laws. That includes the OP.

[Lorien]

79. Don't bother with the sad strawman arguments

trying to turn a discussion about American economic policy into a civil Rights debate is nothing more than a desperate plea for attention by "Ignored".

[ipaint]

81. Your right.

[geek tragedy]

91. You can't unbake the cake.

The economic policies didn't happen in a vacuum. And the economic policies were themselves racially discriminatory.

[dflprincess]

163. At the time of his death Martin Luther King was planning the "Poor People's March on Washington"

the march was to include people of all races, not just poor minorities. Was it because MLK thought the civil rights fight had been won? Doubtful.

No doubt Dr. King recognized that economic justice is a civil right and, if you get a bunch of poor folks together, they just might figure out that their economic situation gives them a whole lot more in common than their skin color makes them different. A very dangerous proposition for those in charge.

Race is used as a way to keep people with common economic interests apart and to protect the status quo. Thanks for doing your part to keep the divisions going.

[Bluenorthwest]

137. Co opt something else becaue gay people can be legally

fired or refused employment in the majority of our States right now today. Also housing can be denied, people evicted, legally, for being gay. Before looking forward, it is necessary to know where we actually are. Discrimination against gay people is still legal in most of this country. We do not have any form of equality on the Federal level at all.
Just some facts on the side.

[Lorien]

78. Sorry, those are the facts

Times are tougher now for working women than they were in the 70's. My single mom raised two kids on her salary in the 70's and retired with money in the bank and no debt. That's tough for any single woman today because of health care costs, inflation, and a tax structure that only benefits the wealthy.

[onenote]

86. and how was it for working women in the 1950s and 1960s?

The problem with the OP is that it painted with such a broad brush as to be factually unsupportable.

And without knowing what sort of job your mom had and what she was paid, its hard to judge whether her situation is better, worse, or no different from many single moms today. If you don't think that there were plenty of single moms int the 1970s struggling with jobs that gave them crappy (and unequal) pay and benefits and that had a lot of debt and had to keep working long past when they wanted to, you are living in a dream world.

[saracat]

102. My mother was a working woman in the 40's. She was a lawyer and treated like crap. My BF is a

lawyer today and she is also treated like crap and supjected to the same sexism. Things haven't changed that much.We really haven't made that much progress.

[cali]

127. That's just garbage

women attorneys are not, in general, treated like shit. To say that nothing has changed in that field is so dishonest it boggles the mind.

[saracat]

155. Really? They are very often treated to the same issues of sexism my mother was.

In the 70's my mother was asked to take her"turn" making coffee by the secretaries while the male associates never were.The secretaries also referred to my mother by her first name and always referred to the men as Mister. Today my friend who heads a department for the state was assumed to be a "secretary" by government males because she was writing notes in a meeting and referred to as a "little lady" by a ranking official.Over achievers like our former governor, Janet Napolitano routinely have their sex life publicly speculated on and their physical appearance commented on in a sexist manner not encountered by males. Women Attorneys in both state and Civil practice, like professional women in other fields often have promotions and raises not given to them as the assumption is made a male is providing for them. Males are considered to have a family to support and women are not, even when two incomes are required.Women still make less on a dollar than males no matter what their profession. I guess being treated like "crap" is relative as long as a woman can get a job in her profession that pays any kind of decent pay at all .But in most instances, her treatment and salary will not be commensurate with a males.

[geek tragedy]

40. Are blacks and Latinos 'people?'

If so, the OP is blatantly false.

[ipaint]

57. Yes

And with the advances made since the 40's,50's and 60's combined with the a more equitable distribution of wealth, blacks and latinos would today be experiencing a better way of life in much larger numbers.

It wasn't a piece of cake for many women back then either but the opportunities created by the top not being allowed to hoard massive amounts of wealth are undeniable and would spread well beyond whites if it was the case today.

[Deja Q]

66. Now THAT is a response that one can utterly appreciate!

:yourock:

[OwnedByFerrets]

98. You took the discussion off course....but Im sure you dont care

[Manifestor_of_Light]

111. Most of the moms in my suburb were taking lots of tranks.

I remember my mom and my friend's grandmom talking about Miltown (the first minor trank), Valium, Librium, etc. etc. Their lives were very limited and the docs gave them tranks to keep them quiet. My mother had four years of college but never had a decent job making any money.

My mom was nonfunctional by the late sixties (Sliding out of bed at night in her nightie, and giggling hysterically, feeling no pain, for example) and taking major tranks. She never thought she had a problem, of course. Even in her seventies we threw her in the hospital and tried to get her off of some of the drugs but it didn't do any good. It just made her furious at us for being so mean to her.

In high school I remember I was really tired. I had been diagnosed with a dead thyroid about three years earlier. I was tired all the time because I was taking thyroid, but about half as much as I really needed. Every day after school I came home and crashed HARD, took a nap for three hours until dinner time. So Mom and the crusty old GP decided they would fix my problem: They got me a scrip for Dexedrine, which is speed. They expected me to take that crap.

I took half of one pill one morning. All day at school I felt like somebody was stabbing me in the ass with a fork. It was most unpleasant. After that I took no more of those evil pills.

Yeah sure. Good old days.

[Bonobo]

32. If one post could encapsulate what is wrong with the country, it is this. nt

[ipaint]

33. I know.

The empowerment of the working class was such a tragic time in our history. :crazy:

[QC]

35. Good thing Reagan saved us from all that. n/t

[Greyhound]

36. OMG, they're unreccing this?

:eyes:

[QC]

37. Class is a taboo topic.

Notice that whenever someone brings it up, the usual clowns and bullies show up to shut down the discussion?

[geek tragedy]

38. Well, it's the people who act like white working class people

are the only ones who count that provoke such reaction.

And make no mistake--when some ignoramus says that "all people" had these opportunities, they are excluding blacks and Latinos from the category of people.

[ipaint]

54. Who said that? n/t

[geek tragedy]

58. Just re-read the OP and insert the word "black" in front of "people" and

ask yourself if it's an accurate reading of history.

For instance, would this be considered true:

"In the 50s, 60s, and 70s,
it was possible for any black person to attend a State University and graduate DEBT FREE if they were willing to work part-time."

I submit anyone who tried to claim that would be ridiculed off the site.

[dflprincess]

112. I began attending a state university in 1971

there were also a lot of Black people attending it, as well as other minorities. There was even an Afro-American Studies department (which had been one the demands presented to the U in 1969 after a demonstration and occupation of the administration building).

I'm sure in the '50s and early '60s there were fewer minority students, but there were some and the numbers did increase as the '60s went on and things began to improve.

[Cal Carpenter]

45. I did and I'll explain why

Simply put - because the above was only true for WHITE people.

A couple other people have said so on this thread already. It's true.

(In fact, strong arguments could be made that it wasn't even true for whites either - nostalgia is a curious and undependable thing)

[Greyhound]

64. Thanks for the reply.

That was true, but it was getting better and those social improvements were a big part of the reason for depressing the standard of living for everybody. There was still poverty, but it was recognized and steps were being taken to address it. There was institutional racism, but again it was being addressed and getting better.

Things were moving toward an egalitarian model with increasing momentum and it scared the crap out of the parasites.

[mdmc]

42. Then Cowboy Ronnie came to town..

[Codeine]

50. forked out his tongue at human rights. nt

[mdmc]

69. yesyesyes

DK uber alles!

[Codeine]

49. It's America's own fault.

We denigrated our unions, devalued physical labor and manufacturing jobs, and created several generations who were taught that they were above hard, sweaty work. We bought our sweatshop clothes from Honduras and our cars from Japan and Korea and our steel and electronics from China -- then wondered why we lost so many of our factory jobs.

But honestly, DU isn't the place to talk rationally about this. DU is the place where people making $120,000+ have the unmitigated audacity to complain about the cost of living, where domestic union-made automobiles are reviled as garbage, where college-educated people bitch that they should get a great job right out of the gate because they spent four years playing student, where the working classes are held up as objects of scorn and of ridicule - or worse, treated like babies who cannot think for themselves - and where discussions of class send folks into a raging tizzy.

DU is the place where people love to draw lines between genders and pit races against each other, all the while blind to the fact that those who hold power don't give a fuck for such distinctions -- they fight the class war and win every time.

We're being destroyed in a battle we refuse to acknowledge is being fought. Madness.

[Greyhound]

53. "We're being destroyed in a battle we refuse to acknowledge is being fought."

And that's the truth.

[ipaint]

67. I agree.

[Lorien]

83. Factory jobs were never the only source of employment, nor were they ever

the only "noble" American jobs-though DUers and politicians alike buy into that mythology. A person who works as an engineer, secretary, researcher, nurse, graphic designer, IT tech, teacher, mechanic, designer, writer, etc. etc. deserves just as much opportunity and respect as any factory worker. "sweaty work" isn't the ONLY work. Many salaried desk jobs require 60-80 hours of work, yes, REAL WORK, per week. It's past time that we stop attacking those who work hard for their college educations as "elitist" and devaluing those who choose a path other than that of their blue collar parents. It's good to have a factory job if a factory job is what you want. It's ALSO good to work as a film editor if you have always dreamed of being a film editor. We are all working class people, both blue collar and white collar, because we don't depend solely on our investments for our incomes. Either we can unite and work together for fair wages, health care, and a return to a fair tax structure, or we can continue fighting one another while the wealthy 1% make off with our country.

[Codeine]

85. The white collar types

are the ones who systematically destroyed our unions.

That said, I understand your point.

[Lorien]

87. I'm a "white collar type" who BELONGED to a union

you've got the wrong villain. Corporate CEOs and the GOP destroyed unions. The rest of us work just as hard as anyone else to survive.

[winyanstaz]

118. I agree....

[heidler1]

120. I agree and I would add that the "self made man" get degraded by them too.

[Blue_In_AK]

62. Excellent post.

I went four years at the University of Houston, 1964-68, on the money I made during the summer. The only year I worked full-time was my senior year, and that was only because I moved from home and got my own apartment ($60 a month).

I would absolutely hate to be a young person today trying to find my way in the world. All of you "youngsters" here at DU have my profound sympathy.

[Deja Q]

63. And these days, a bachelor's degree is no better than a high school diploma...

Which really makes a high school diploma worthless...

Fuck, I work full time and am a part time student. And I'm paying it on my own, without any freebies. Despite the college egging me on to do more than two classes, I want to learn this shit right as well. (forgive me, I am not happy right now.) And if the republicans ever claim I am stupid or dumb, don't expect me to enlist to save their worthless anuses. Not ever.

BTW: Beware when mentioning the 1950s without a clear, crisp difference between the issues. Most DUers will try to spin it into something entirely unrelated. (even if you go out of your way to mention "economics", the truth won't stop them.)

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lorien]

73. It's true. My grandfather had no college education and raised four kids

on his mid-level factory manager's income (after working as a factory worker for years). He built and paid for his own home. He paid for four college educations. His wife only worked a part time job at her kid's local school during the school year-for "fun". He took a three week vacation every year. He owned a camper and spent weekends camping and fishing. He died with $150,000 in savings still in the bank-and no debt. Could any middle class man or woman manage the same today making $45,000 a year? (which is the equivalent of his salary today). No, and it's not because we "buy more stuff", it's because income has not kept pace with inflation. Health and educational costs have also skyrocketed, and the tax burden now falls on middle and working classes instead of the wealthy. Everything is designed to move wealth from the bottom 95% to the top 1%.

[onenote]

88. so in 1970 your grandfather was making $8000 a year and doing all that?

GOod for him.

[Arugula Latte]

75. Yep. My parents did all those things and more on one income.

My husband and I are not in that boat.

[fascisthunter]

76. unrecs from the uppercrust wannabes...

great post

[Lorien]

80. And the Freeper trolls nt

[The Gunslinger]

89. Damn!! I can only rec once.

Right on the money. Even the Paul Wellstone quote.

[NNN0LHI]

90. Yep, I hired into Ford and became a UAW member in 1973 while still in high school

Went to school in the daytime and built cars at night. Got married young raised a family and always had a fairly new car. Was able to purchase my first home in 1986. I am still a dues paying UAW member even though I am retired.

The plant I worked at had over 4000 hourly workers and another thousand white collar workers on the other side of the wall.

Now my neighbors drive Hondas and Toyotas and they appear unable to figure out why the best jobs their children can find after they graduate high school is guarding pipelines in Iraq. 30 years ago their kids would be working at the same Ford plant I retired from just like I was. Making a decent wage, raising a family and living a normal life. But they would rather have their Hondas and Toyotas.

I sometimes wonder if they ask themselves if the trade off was worth it?

I doubt it. They probably aren't smart enough to figure it out.

Don

[dugaresa]

92. the good years were due in part to the Unions

because the not so good years were before that from 1880's to the 1950's there were huge struggles between labor and corporations.

it lasted no more than 20 years until the Corporations decided to move the unskilled and skilled labor work overseas or across the border.

that is how they "got us back".

By the mid 1970's the move was on to find the cheapest labor sources to keep costs low.

The problem today is that transit costs a lot and so we might see those jobs come back as soon as the backs of the American people are sufficiently broken after 30 years of anti-union propaganda.

[Bonobo]

93. Kick and kick and kick

[MadMaddie]

96. Here is my thought on the class warfare that has been occurring

for decades...

The Nixon era and the Reagan era underlying tone was to disenfranchise minorities and women in this country. But the rest of America, middle-class America didn't pay attention because it wasn't directed at them, they weren't impacted. The Aids epidemic was all but ignored during the Reagan administration and it impacted the Gay population at high rates at that time....but the rest of America wasn't impacted by the epidemic so everyone went on their merry way....until it crossed over into the Heterosexual commmunity....

What I am saying is that the class war was always there underneath the surface and it didn't impact the majority of Americans. We got too comfortable with the Reaganomic meme "I am getting mine so screw everyone else", "Corporations can do no wrong", "Outsourcing is great", America can survive on IT jobs and the service sector...no need for a manufacturing base......"Let's live off credit and not what is actually in our bank accounts", "Let's buy a bigger and better house every 4 or 5 years", "Save money, Who saves money?"

Nixon and Reagan ushered in this age we currently are living in and this country can no longer afford any Republican leadership.....the next time around it will be the Death of this country.

Random Thoughts....

[OwnedByFerrets]

97. Raygun killed the american dream

everything done after that was just the burial.

[Historic NY]

99. and then came "Trickle Down Economics"...boy its really wet.

[lastliberalintexas]

100. I've always liked this Warren Buffet quote

"There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning."

[Just-plain-Kathy]

101. I remember my grandmother living off of the interest from her modest bank account.

[saracat]

104. Wonderful post. it is sad that certain posters tried to hijack this for their own agenda, which only

sows discord. no one has said anything was 'easy' or fair in earlier times but it was possible, more so than it is now.

[laughingliberal]

106. K & R nt

[dflprincess]

107. Okay Bvar, here's the deal

if we can't get a certain someone to challenge Klobuchar, it's your duty to move back here and do it.

[John Q. Citizen]

108. Yes. We have been turned into peasants.

[BigBearJohn]

113. It may soon be too late if we don't use our voting power to elect candidates who truly

represent the working man.

As far as I am concerned the current parties are owned by Big Money.
Soon we won't be able to stop them. It may already be too late.

We had the right idea in electing Obama, but we still have corrupted
Democrats in Congress.

[dotymed]

152. These days it is the "conservatives"

who field "average joe" "acting"
candidates. I looked at some of the candidates thew were
recently running on state levels. They were strange but not
moneyed. We have to ELECT some (a lot of) actual progressives
and get the damned election laws changed. Also, the SCOTUS,
NEVER ruled that corporations were entitled to person hood. In
fact they flatly denied it. The person recording the judgment,
purposefully mislabeled the decision. Yet "we" have
never challenged that. "We" have let the
corporations (the courts have also) assume the mantle of
person hood without a fight. The damned original decision is
still on the books. What is stopping us from enforcing the
real SCOTUS decision? The only chance for our survival is to
win this class war. There is one helluva lot of real (facts)
ammunition strewn on the battlefield, but we ignore it. How
about the ACLU show that the SCOTUS actually denied person
hood to the corporations and it was reported incorrectly? It
is a known and proven fact. The law also says that no matter
how the decision was reported, the decision is what counts.
Then corporations will have to prove they operate for the
public good once again or not get their charter, just like it
was before the recorder lied...We must reverse the Reagan (and
Clinton) damage just as well as the "W" damage,
before we can get America on track. Everyone should read
Howard Zinn's, History of America. It is our true history and
irreplaceable.
Actually, the SCOTUS denied an "income tax" also.
Our recent history and laws are based on lies. Yes, the
wealthy are way ahead on the class war they are pursuing. We
have no choice but to defend ourselves. Corporations pay about
2% income taxes and the wealthy about the same, yet they own
it all... including the offshore, P.O. box "tax
havens"...

[BigBearJohn]

170. Well written. Thanks for posting this.

[Mithreal]

114. Enthusiastic K&R, needs to be posted more regularly

[Brigid]

117. You know what the worst part is?

Some DUers are young enough that they have no memory of such a time. :(

I live in a neighborhood of modest homes of 1950s vintage. When I walk around, I can just picture it: Back in those days, there was a number of manufacturing concerns that are now long gone. You could get a job at one of them and make a decent living. You could buy a house like one of the aforementioned, have a family car, and in general support your family and consider yourself well off. But just try doing that now.

[gtar100]

119. Is that even possible without the use of guillotines?

A lot of entrenched interests have corrupted the American government on so many levels. And there is now a large segment of our population who on the one hand hate the government but in action supports the very people and institutions which corrupt it. We really need change, the kind you are talking about, but Americans aren't just divided, we are shattered. I think we need a miracle if we aren't destined for civil war for things to change on such a grand scale. Otherwise, this kinder and gentler sort of fascism we stew in day after day will become the norm. Remember, Stalin ruled Russia for far too many years and was eulogized in the end. That was really fucked up. But it just shows how people can endure really bad things and even grow accustomed to them.

Even as the population is crying out for a new health care system, thousands upon thousands of "investors" are lining up to reap the profits from the new "reforms". It's not just the systems and institutions that were destroyed by the Reagan revolution, it was a culture. We need to recover a sense of identity that values people over profits, a clean environment over industry, and even a sense of community with the rest of the world. These things cannot be legislated, they are changes in the heart of each and every individual. I am saddened by my belief that Americans just don't have it in them. Too many love their guns, their trucks, their bottle of beer, a good barbecue, and don't find room to love their neighbors, let alone the diverse cultures that abound on this little planet.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

121. Reagan's union busting accelerated it.

Nixon started to warm to the idea of health insurance cos. screwing people.
Reagan's Air traffic controllers union busting just showed they could get away with busting unions, canning people, sending jobs overseas, keeping the minimum wage down, discrimination for any and all reasons, whether inexperienced or overqualified.

[dotymed]

154. Reagan was a Criminal

who stole the election just like "W" did. He
supplied the Iranians with weapons and money. He arranged to
have the hostages in Tehran released on inaugural day. Papa
Bush, former CIA chief could steal an election in his sleep.
That is why Reagan's people chose him. Really, the U.S.
Politburo chose him. You know, our wealthy, wealthy owners.
Reagan was an actor with dementia. Perfect for his
"role." He spread (under orders) right wing coups
and take-overs globally, especially in America. He had the
FAIRNESS DOCTRINE removed so they could control the
propaganda. We were the victim of a coup. Bush II was the
second phase. Clinton was probably the best republican
president we had in a long time. The history of America
including the Reagan coup by the Military Industrial complex
is chronicled in the movie "V" for Vendetta. Too bad
we have no saviour in sight. Maybe Bernie Sanders and Dennis
Kucinich, but the PTB ain't gonna let that happen...UFO's...I
worked for Obama and got more of the same... crazy huh?

[Vidar]

123. K&R

[cali]

124. bullfucking shit. it was possible if you were a white male

I despise this "good old days" shit.

[cali]

125. unrecced for male chauvenist pigginess.

[twitomy]

129. I agree with this post in principle BUT

keep in mind our "standard of living" requires more mullah to sustain.
Middle class in the day consisted of:

Only one TV
No cable bill
One Car
No central air
One phone on the wall
Three bedrooms max
One bathroom
No computer
No cell,blackberry etc
Less advanced healthcare
Vacation tended to be more "local"

Thats from the top of my head. More families today could have a parent stay at home if their lifestyle was this simple. Certainly not all (hence my agreeing with the post) but more.

[eilen]

131. Our options were fewer then

however, no computers also meant no internet. Remember doing research papers before computers were common place? My college had a "computer lab" for word processing but no computers in the library for students to use. It was all microfiches and periodical indexes and ordering articles from other libraries. And that was in the 1980's. I remember ordering a lot of books. Luckily we have good libraries in NY State but I wonder what people did in some of the Southern states I've visited -- in which my high school library's collect was twice as large as their public library and while my library was free, theirs have a fee.

The one tv-- we pretty much do that now. We have a 3 bedroom, 1.5 bath (no full bath in the master bedroom). We don't have a home phone, just cell phones. Ma Bell was pretty expensive and we had to lease our phones and getting repairs was also expensive. Long distance was very very expensive and we used to wait late at night of the weekend for the rates to fall and still had very awkward short conversations. Remember putting off things because you were expecting a long distance call?

We went to Disney world. We camped and brought our own food (picnic lunches) to the park. Can't do that now.

At the time cable was not available but when it was, we had it.

The school tuition, health care and housing was way less expensive. We only went to the Dr. when we were sick and the dentist when we had a cavity once we grew out of needing shots as our parents had no health insurance.

[ipaint]

135. Not too much different from what I don't have now.

one tv- yes
one car- yes
no central air- yes
one phone- yes
three bedrooms- not even close (studio apt)
one bath- yes
no cell, blackberry- correct
less advanced healthcare- I have none
vacation- What's that?

Oh good I have a cable bill and a computer. Gotta love progress.

In the Elizabeth Warren lecture on the middle class in the 40's, 50's, 60's I posted up thread, she shows it's not all the extra consumer goodies that rose in price it's the basic large purchases- Home, car, education, healthcare combined with stagnant wages that have broke the bank for half the population and counting.

[raccoon]

139. THANK YOU. I'm so sick of posts where someone talks about how "my father (whoever) raised

4 kids on one paycheck, etc." While that may be entirely true, as you've pointed out, most of us are used to a higher standard of living in the ways you've described.

I would add:

"Less advanced healthcare" AND dental AND vision care

Not as many clothes; especially not brand name clothes or shoes. Wore hand-me-downs from older siblings/cousins.

Ate out much less often.

[twitomy]

165. Yep, I was one of NINE kids.

Dad worked at the steel mill. A lot of hand me downs, one black and white TV with rabbit ears, a ten year+ old car was the norm. Raised our own beef and did a lot of canning. And this isnt 50 years ago as the youngest sibling is in his thirties. The house was sparsley furnished until it was paid for.

That all said there is no denying wages have not kept up with inflation. A kid could work summers at the mill and make enough to pay the entire college tuition for the year. Try doing that now...

One memory that comes back is my mom talking about the "expensive" homes on a particualr drive that the "upper middle class" could only afford. Eventhought he neighbor is still good, those same houses now are hardly considered the "expensive" homes in town these days.

[HughBeaumont]

174. I think mine was the last generation that had semi-affordable college.

At least for local open-admissions universities. I graduated with no student loan debt in 1994 and that was from making mostly minimum wage and living at home. I definitely would not have that same affordability on my own now if I were to go back to school. I don't even know how my kid's school's going to get paid; he's going to have to cover some of it for starters once he gets up there.

[Brigid]

150. My neighborhood reflects this time.

Modest home of 1950s vintage, 2-3 bedrooms, one bath, one-car garage. Stove and refrigerator and not much else in the kitchen. Washer and dryer. And people considered themselves well off. Yes, it would be difficult to lie that modestly today. But maybe it would be worth trying, especially when it comes to gadgets like blackberries.

[The_Commonist]

132. Those days are gone and NEVER coming back...

That Golden Age of the "American Dream" was built on cheap oil.

The country was swimming in oil and everything was less expensive.
We can dream all we want about "the good old days," but unless and until we find a source of energy as cheap and abundant as oil was in those days, everything will be more expensive.

We can blame Reagan and policy all we want, the truth is we will never come close to that lifestyle again without a cheap source of energy. Those days were an anomaly, not the norm, and we would do ourselves a service by looking forward and building a new, acceptable lifestyle rather than looking back to a time that we will never, ever recreate...

[Brigid]

153. So true . . .

But our corporate overlords have been of no help in that regard. It seems to me that only startups are really trying to develop alternative energy sources. If we start living frugally, cutting back on the toys the corporate sector dangles in front of us like carrots if we can't afford them, th;en their "good old days" will be over too. Maybe the fat cats will die of their own weight, the way it was once believed that the dinosaurs did.

[Chan790]

156. We could easily recreate something similar and better...

if people were more willing to make some hard sacrifices.

• If you live somewhere where public transit is an option and you don't use it nearly to the exclusion of your automobile...part of the problem.
• If you waste electricity...part of the problem.
• If you think wind farms and solar arrays are a great idea but throw a fit when they want to build it near your house because it's ugly...part of the problem.
• If you gripe about the cost of alternative energy research...part of the problem.
  
  It's more that possible to have those days again if we're willing to make realistic energy and transit decisions, but we're not. I've said this here before and nobody wants to hear it. The age of the personal vehicle is ending, it's not going to be viable for the majority of residents of Earth very very quickly. I had one person tell me, thinking that they were being coy, that "we could have his car when we pried if from his cold dead hands." I'm not sure if he realized that it's not going to do him any good when the price of oil derivatives hits-and-maintains $140/bl. It won't be about whether he can afford gas...at that point, there will be no gas for the public to buy. Hybrids/Electrics...great for around-the-town but they're never going to be viable for any longer range sustainably. Kiss your car goodbye and get on the bus, chums.

[WillyT]

133. Yes, And If You Look At The Illustration In My Sig Line, You'll See Why...

We need to go back to this at some level.

:shrug:

[Cyrano69]

138. The difference is...

That at that time government only took up about 11% of GDP, not the 23-26% it is going to take up this yr. and next. Plus our parent were much more frugal. They didn't buy big screen tv's on credit, they only bought a house AFTER saving the 20% down necessary. etc.etc.

[ProSense]

144. This post is amazing!

The good old days?

In the 50s, 60s, and 70s, it was possible for anyone to attend a State University and graduate DEBT FREE if they were willing to work part-time.

In the good old days before civil rights, before Medicare, the Department of Education, Equal Opportunity, etc.

I guess all those things ruined it for us.

In the good old days when teachers had to work three jobs to make a decent living? When unemployment in the black community was 50 percent?

You can keep the good old days. This is just the kind of mentality that obstructs progress. Yes, I have fond memories of the past, but there are also things about it that I would never want to relive.

[tjwash]

145. Ummm...no.

We gravy trained off of the spoils of WWII for a couple decades and thought it would last forever, and are sad that it is forever over now. Now you got folks pining for the "good old days" where everyone was rich, you didn't have to work a full time job while pulling 20 units in school at night to get ahead, and women stayed at home to take care of the kids. :eyes:

There was never this magical, mythical, "political party that represented the working class." That is nothing but a fantasy. The fact is...the after WWII ended, there was a prosperity that looked like it was never going to end, because the manufacturing infrastructures of so many global giants had been completely bombed out, and obliterated.

The U.S. was extremely lucky, because, we never had to endure an attack on our continental shores, and had the undamaged infrastructure in place, to replace the manufacturing outputs of countries like Germany, Great Britain, Japan, and Italy, while they rebuilt. And boy did we ever. We became the worlds factory for a couple of decades and just wasted and consumed like it was never going to end.

If you want to retreat into "good old days" posts and whine about everything not being like your rose colored glasses say it should be, go ahead, but the fact is, that there is an entire rest of the world out there, and they are getting sick of our bullshit, and are starting to kick our asses. I see Americans get out-competed for jobs here on our own shores every single day. I see guys from other countries on H1B visas that work 16 hour days, and come up with brilliant, fascinating ways of doing things, while Americans check in at 9, do only whatever the hell they are forced to do, and go home at 5.

[newtothegame]

148. Once upon a time in America, it was possible to take home more than half what you earn. n/t

[debbierlus]

151. I know it. My great uncle was a janitor for a public school and made enough:

- to buy a charming lil house in a cute neighborhood

- put two sons through college

- my great aunt stayed at home to raise the kids

- drive a relatively new car (not brand new - but a safe, clean, & reliable car)

- save for his retirement

- take occassional vacations

My father worked as a paper mill supervisor and he made enough to do the same and save a LOT of money for retirement plus buy boats and new cars....

Workers were included in the system of rewards. Not anymore. Workers are nothing but a means to end to the profiteering corporations - shareholders and CEO's trump the people who actually create the wealth.

Disgusting.

[onenote]

160. so if the good old days were so much better

in terms of the specific things you mention, how is it that a greater percentage of the population goes to college today than before and more people own cars and houses than before?

FWIW, my dad bought a house for $45,000 in the mid 1950s in a newly developed neighborhood in what was considered an out of the way suburb at the time. He was making around $6K a year at the time. In inflation adjusted dollars, that $6K is now over $45K and the the $45K he spent for the house is over $350K. And the house is actually worth more than that even in a down market because what was considered an out of the way part of the DC suburbs in 1955 is now considered a desirable close in neighborhood today. He stayed in that job for another 20 years and put two kids through college while my mom stayed home. How did he do that? For one thing, he invested very wisely.

[NOLALady]

159. Let's not forget that

Once Upon a Time

It was not possible for all Americans to get a good job with benefits. Many were unable to get a decent job until after the passage of the Civil Rights bill.

Once the Civil Rights bill was passed, those non college working class people had to compete with the previously disenfranchised Americans for jobs.

[Kermitt Gribble]

161. Excellent post, bvar22!

You accurately contrast the differences in the economy between then and now. Shame some are hijacking the thread arguing racism, when your op has nothing to do with race. Interesting that it's the same characters that defend the party and it's corporate tendencies at all costs.

K&R!

[bvar22]

166. They cruise around DU in a little clown car,

....and come piling out to spam threads they deem to be politically incorrect.
Always personal attacks and Strawmen, never anything of substance, never any legitimate rebuttals, and never anything that actually adds to the quality of discussion at DU.

I hope they are being well paid because anyone who works that hard for FREE is a complete idiot.

[CTLawGuy]

172. Things are worse off for the working class for a few reasons

1. Irresponsible globalization: American workers have had to compete against workers with much lower standards of living in countries with much fewer legal protections. Unsurprisingly, American workers lose most of the time. Unfortunately, Bill Clinton was a big proponent of the "free trade" policies that led to this. Also, roughly falling under this category is cheap illegal immigrant labor, against which Americans must compete, increasingly coming into the US, many would argue due to "free trade" policies. Employers take advantage of these desperate people and abuse them to no end, knowing that they can do next to nothing about it.

2. Decline of unions: has led to fewer benefits and protections for workers - people work more hours today, people no longer get defined benefit pensions, health insurance is often either non-existent, really expensive or poor quality.

3. Debt financing of everything: the debt industry is a huge industry because people love borrowing to buy stuff and it's so easy. This might explain why expenses go up but wages do not - debt makes up the difference.

4. Tax structure that privileges unearned income (dividends, interest, capital gains, inheritances) over earned income (wages, tips, income from running a small business). I think it was Warren Buffett who said that his secretary pays, in taxes, a greater % of her income than he does of his.

5. Education costs keep rising: Colleges and Universities have no incentive to control costs, because no matter what they spend and charge the students, someone will pay for it--usually through loans or government assistance. This inevitably leads to massive debt becoming due once the student graduates. Also, colleges and universities don't compete on price, but rather on prestige, quality, location or other factors, so the market mechanisms that keep the prices of most commodities in check are very weak in the education market.

6. Education is a prerequisite for a decent job: Either you go to college (or some kind of postsecondary school) and thus have a chance as a good job, or you don't and you work at Wal-Mart your entire life. High school degrees are virtually worthless.

7. Deregulation: Bottom line, this means business can prey on working people with virtual impunity and nothing is protecting the victims. For example, the Glass-Steagal act, which was repealed 10 years ago yesterday, prevented my deposit bank from combining with an investment bank making high risk investments. This was important because if the high risk investments go bad, without the glass steagal act, my deposits would go bye bye even if I didn't consent to put my money into a gambling operation (ignoring the FDIC for the moment).
Deregulation allowed these financial geniuses to cook up the idea of the subprime mortgage, and the subsequent securitization and protection of that via the credit default swap. This entangled almost everyone in the subprime collapse, and government did nothing to stop or regulate any of it.

[uponit7771]

173. This is soooooooooooooooooooooooooo important