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The premeditated murder of premeditated murderers is not justice, it is state imposed revenge

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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 10:23 AM
Original message
The premeditated murder of premeditated murderers is not justice, it is state imposed revenge
Although, I have no love lost for John Allen Muhammad, I think that it's America's continuing shame that we're the ONLY WESTERN INDUSTRIALIZED NATION THAT EXECUTES PEOPLE.

Ban the death penalty now.



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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. Agreed.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
2. Correct. nt.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
3. it's also stupid, and expensive
society could benefit more from folks like this who are locked up from society and studied(not tortured).
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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
4. Pragmatically, we have two choices. Warehouse him for the rest of his life or dispose of him.
We have enough places where spending money could do some good. Why throw away potential health care money warehousing people who are too dangerous to set free?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. your post sickens me.
I don't even have the heart to go into why.
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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I understand
And I wish reality weren't so harsh. If we could actually cure a murderer of the mental illness that made him dangerous that would be the most ideal solution. Then he could be reintegrated into society as a productive citizen. The problem is, we don't have the medical or psychiatric knowledge to accomplish that.

One way or another society needs to be protected from dangerous individuals. That leaves us only two choices, as I mentioned above: Warehousing or execution. I'm not sure warehousing is so humane either. Which results in the greater suffering, a lethal injection or a lifetime in a cage?

It is likely that anyone who is capable of premeditated murder of a complete stranger must be suffering from his own horrible internal demons. I'm sure such an individual is wracked with constant emotional pain of one sort or another. Is it really that compassionate to force him to suffer that torment for the rest of his life?

Depending on one's religious beliefs, there are different things awaiting him in the afterlife. If you are a Christian then God will have the final revenge by burning him in hell for eternity, which is much more inhumane than anything we mere humans can do. Some religions believe that everyone goes to heaven, and that in the afterlife he will learn the error of his ways and be saved. Others believe in reincarnation, and that he will be reborn and given a second chance to get it right next time. Others believe there is nothing but complete extinction. In every myth (except the angry vengeance-seeking Christian hell myth) death is the better alternative for him.
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Although I'm not wont to put a dollar value on human lives
Edited on Tue Nov-10-09 10:47 AM by MrScorpio
Death penalty cases and executions are much more expensive than the warehousing option

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. Putting them on death row and then to death costs more.
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
5. I hope people realize how very mentally ill this man is
Edited on Tue Nov-10-09 10:44 AM by wuushew
One of his lawyers was being interviewed on BBC last night and said that three areas of his brain showed unmistakable legions consistent with schizophrenia. Also there is an actual hole in another part apparently from physical abuse he suffered as a youth.

Why is it legal to execute the mentally ill?
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. I don't think he's even close to being legally insane
There was no case for legal insanity in court, ergo, stick a needle in his arm.

Tonight.

I'm glad it's almost over.
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ORDagnabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
7. no its getting known killers out of the world just we do all animals that kill
do it quicker and spend less money on it.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. He was a trained killer when he was sent to Iraq
to kill people there. I remember the cheering and celebrations as glorifing of the troops as they went off to war. His wife said he was a very different man when he returned. Some killing we cheer for, maybe he thought it was okay, after all no one told him it was wrong to kill Iraqis.

And those who sent him there are living in luxury, respected and when they die, will have state funerals. I wonder how the families of dead Iraqis feel about all this.
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
10. I agree.
It's stupid, pointless, and hurts society. It also costs a lot more than just keeping these people in prison for the rest of their lives.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
12. begs the question
the logical fallacy you use is this. you assume without justification that the execution of a convicted murderer IS murder.

of course it's wrong, illegal, etc. (not to mention revenge), IF it is murder. that's a certainty, since a necessary element of murder IS that it is an UNLAWFUL killing
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. You're hiding behind a stipulation, that just because the law is on the books, that makes it alright
It's alright that the state can capriciously choose whom it wants to kill and doesn't kill.

All without regard to the greater moral implications of the death penalty, its politically charged application, the unfair way that states throw millions of dollars against defendants to make a specious claim that the death penalty is a deterrent, (Yes, a waste of money and the real possibility that innocent people can and have been executed.

About that deterrent thing, why doesn't anyone ever admit that every single subsequent execution is a tacit admission that all previous executions were complete failures as deterrents? All one has to do is ask, what is gained by that lie? Other than another notch on some prosecutor's bedpost...

What about the hypocrisy of the death penalty itself? That taking a life is so egregious that it creates justification that state can (again) capriciously decide that it also can take a life in return? If that's not revenge, then what is it?

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, it's been said.

States make the choice to kill deliberately. I call deliberate a killing murder.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. at least that's an argument
i can agree or disagree with an argument, vs. a logical fallacy

i don't support capricious state authorized execution

fwiw, whether or not the death penalty is a deterrent, at least for me, is tangential as to whether it's justified.

that's because i support the death penalty as JUSTICE, deterrence would just be a feature.

of course, it's a SPECIFIC deterrent. an executed person will never murder again. whether it's a GENERAL deterrent is the question.

let's address some of your other arguments.

"taking a life is so egregious". NO

MURDERING, taking a life WITHOUT justification is egregious. for example, it's not egregious if i shoot a burglar breaking into my home. that's sad, but perfectly justified.

you can call deliberate killing murder. you can call it "alphonso". but thinking it, or callin' it, doesn't make it so

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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
14. Exactly.
Executing these prisoners is revenge, not punishment.
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GreatCaesarsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
16. I don't think you'll find much sympathy for him here in Aspen Hill, MD
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. It's not about sympathy. Death is too easy an out for the man.
In our thirst for revenge it gets lost that sitting in a cell for 40 years contemplating your contemptuous actions is a more difficult penalty than to be put out of your misery.
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
36. Most deathrow prisoners disagree.
Edited on Tue Nov-10-09 09:57 PM by burning rain
Most appeal all they can and obviously prefer life in prison, to death.

I've also heard some folks argue both that we ought to ban the death penalty because it's too harsh, and imprison people for life instead, because it's harsher. Huh?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
19. Murder is defined as the UNLAWFUL killing of one human by another:
http://www.answers.com/murder

Can you please tell us how his execution is unlawful?
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
20. If executing murderers is itself murder, does that make imprisoning
kidnappers, kidnapping?
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Dr. Strange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Yes.
And taxation is theft, etc.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
22. I agree. Its not about being secure from a threat but vengeance
I'm an old school liberal in the belief that the justice system works only when it is designed to be corrective rather than punitive in its precepts. We have literally thousands of years of history to guide us on this and there are no indications that we are doing the right thing no matter what level of emotional satisfaction it brings to certain folk.

By the time you add factors like sin crimes and prisons for profit and it would seem like alarms would be sounding 24/7 that we need to quickly reevaluate our entire thought process. Doubly so as it becomes clearer all the time that we punish the innocent with and sometimes instead of the guilty.

People like structure and for things to make sense so it is very hard to digest that what we think of as facts are just guesses that work within limited observation. Yesterday's reasonable or even beyond a shadow of a doubt are in some cases today's utter bullshit like the case in Texas.
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CrownPrinceBandar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
23. Couldn't have said it better myself...........n/t
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
24. Using John Allen Muhammad as a poster child against the death penalty
is actually counter productive to your cause.

See, the case in Texas nearly turned me around, but protesting the execution of Muhammad just pushed me right back to pro-death penalty.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. The test of a society is not how it treats its best citizens. n/t
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. I'm opposed to all uses of the death penalty
Edited on Tue Nov-10-09 03:08 PM by MrScorpio
It would be hypocritical to exempt Muhammad simply because he's a heinous murderer.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. But see, you guys almost had me after Perry put an innocent man to death
and you lost me again with this thread.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. That an internet thread could change your mind so easily is curious in itself.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I've been pro-death penalty all my life
The Cameron Todd Willingham made me take stock of that stance.

But complaining about John Allen Muhammed being put to death only firms up my original stance and causes me to discount Willingham as a fluke.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. You are willing to dismiss an innocent man's death as a "fluke", Nuff said.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Yep, I sure am
the Muhammeds of the world need killing.

Willingham would not have been put to death if Perry wasn't a fuckhead.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
33. Appeal to popularity is a logical fallacy.
Just a friendly FYI.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
34. K n R
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
35. +1
I will never support the death penalty.
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