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Why are religious leaders being allowed to dictate what will be in legislation?

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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:27 AM
Original message
Why are religious leaders being allowed to dictate what will be in legislation?
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 05:29 AM by Are_grits_groceries
WASHINGTON A restriction on abortion coverage, added late Saturday to the health care bill passed by the House, has energized abortion opponents with their biggest victory in years emboldening them for a pitched battle in the Senate.
<snip>
Both sides credited a forceful lobbying effort by Roman Catholic bishops with the success of the provision, inserted in the bill under pressure from conservative Democrats.
<snip>
The bishops objected to the segregated funds proposal previously embraced by the House and Senate Democratic leaders in part because they argued that it amounted to nothing more than an accounting gimmick.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/09/us/politics/09abortio...

I still want to know WHY the Catholic Bishops are allowed to approve legislation. They didn't just oppose this by lobbying. They were actively involved in the legislative process because of the Anti-choice legislators who used the limits the Bishops demanded. The legislators were running proposals through them until one was deemed to be correct.

I don't care what religion is involved. Insert the United Methodist Church, the AME Church, The Church of Christ, or the Metropolitan Community Church for the 'Catholic Bishops. NONE of them should have the ability to preapprove the exact wording of anything.

The Catholic Bishops have interceded before when Congress was trying to reauthorize the US Global AIDS Act. The Bishops stepped in in the 11th hour and insisted on changes.
What were they?
Banning US global funding from supporting contraceptive services for HIV-positive women in Africa who wanted to avoid another pregnancy in no small part because they likely would not be alive to support another child.

Reinserting language on abstinence until marriage and requiring reports to Congress wherever at least 50 percent of funds were not spent on abstinence

Ensuring conscience langauge so sweeping that groups who did not "like" gays or sex workers would not be "forced" to serve them either with prevention or treatment.
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2009/11/07/do-cathol...

I'll bet that they have been consulted before on a lot of issues. This time they felt empowered enough to openly be involved.

They are also politically savvy enough to demand changes at the last moment. They insert themselves at make or break moments when they may be able to use some leverage. I'll bet they are cahooting with lawmakers on this tactic.

I want this explained to people. Bush was involved with fundies and whoever through his entire time in office. I wonder what unholy alliances were quietly formed and are still in action today.

These people haven't been just given a seat at the table. They have apparently been given the table.



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Lindsay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you.
This has got me so enraged I can't think straight.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. My hair is on fire.
I put it out, and when I think about this up it goes again.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. THE CATHOLIC BISHOPS ARE MISREPRESENTING WHAT THEY CLAIM THEIR MEMBERS SUPPORT!
Conducted by International Communications Research (ICR) from September 16-20, 2009, the phone survey of 1,043 U.S. adults found that 60 percent favor and only thirty percent oppose efforts to pass health care reform to provide affordable health insurance for all. Focusing on that sixty percent, the survey found that:

Sixty percent of those favoring reform oppose and only 25 percent support measures that would require people to pay for abortion coverage with their federal taxes.
By a 49-39 percent plurality, those who favor reform oppose measures that would require people to pay for abortion coverage with their health insurance premiums; and
Among those favoring reform, those who favor maintaining current federal laws that protect doctors and nurses from being forced to perform or refer for abortions against their will outnumber those who oppose keeping such laws in place by a margin of two to one (60-30).

http://www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2009/09-186.shtml

They DO NOT poll only Catholic members. Their polls use a sampling of US adults.

This fact cannot be overstated. They cannot say what their laity wants because they don't know. They are presenting their polling numbers as if they reflect only the members of the Catholic church. They don't.

They are using false information to leverage their position. Their position represents the official view of the Catholic church as laid down by Church law. Unless they are sampling only Catholics, they are not presenting a true picture of the beliefs of the members of the Catholic church in the US.

This wrong on so many levels it is shameful.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. erm you do know the catholic church is not some type of democracy
that has to take polls on its members only, the reason they poll the whole population is probuably the same reason the mormons baptise everyone, they see themselves as the head of the whole of gods children... as to the forcing a nurse or doctor to perform an abortion, this is hugely contentious and a lot of them would rather leave the profession than be forced.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Then the shouldn't bloody
pretend that the numbers they cite are representative of the Catholic faith in the US. These are the people the politicians consider when the Bishops natter on about who they speak for. They think that the Bishops are citing figures that reflect who will follow their lead.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. yeah because the politicians who look to them for advice are not savvy enouigh
to find the link you did on the internet. jeez dont you think that they may be branching the numbers out to include all religions and non religious to get a better representative feel for the country....
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. MEH!
Then don't bring the Catholic Bishops in as a sounding board to approve a policy that is so restrictive it is rolling back abortion rights rapidly.

My point is that politicians are using the Bishop's 'guidance' right out front. Look at their meddling on the AIDS issue. That had nothing to do with anything other than Catholic Church beliefs. Read what they were able to force into changes in that issue.

MEH!
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. why wouldnt you look to the bishops if you are a catholic politicians
or if you represent a heavily catholic community. You do know that people of all faiths go for guidance to their pastors, priests etc...
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Look to them until
the end of time.

Then Catholic politicians are forcing their beliefs into a law that everybody will have to follow whether they are Catholic or not.

Believe me I know that people go to their church leaders for guidance. I'm in the bloody South fighting a Protestant Evangelical theocracy.
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Craftsman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. There are 3 kinds of Catholics
The yeah I am catholic but haven't been near a mass in 2o years Catholic

CEO's Christmas and Easter only's

The hardcore Catholics

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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. yup this point gets lost on a lot of people.....
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 06:31 AM by vadawg
plus church law trumps all when it comes to what the church stands for, it wouldnt matter if every person in a congregation wanted to do something, if it was against the laws then it aint happening....
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Are you seriously suggesting
that Catholics in the US follow the edicts from Rome in lock step?

My problem is any faith being involved much less one who apparently is giving lawmakers an ultimatum based on what their hierarchy wants.

Why should the millions of people in the US of other faiths be subject to a law that is based on another faith's beliefs?????
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MattBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #23
38. Not to mention that Catholics
are a minority in the US and in Africa yet a bunch of misogynistic creepy old men in Europe forced our govenrment to deny health services to women in Africa.

At some point we have to tell that "city" in Italy to back off our politics.
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Ineeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #17
26. don't forget the cafeteria Catholics...
who pick and choose what is appetizing to their personal palates.
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Craftsman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. Those are covered in the first 2
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MattBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #11
37. Let them leave then
I have a lot of people I can't stand; but I can't claim "religious" bigotry as an excuse not to to do my job.
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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:36 AM
Response to Original message
2. One Nation Under God And On Our Money! And an illusory separation of Church & State.
It'll be interesting to see if this is challenged as a violation of separation or as a civil rights issue...or both...But it must be challenged and it must not be allowed into law.
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Craftsman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:40 AM
Response to Original message
3. They and their followers have votes and money
And their vote counts as much as yours
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. very succint and matter of factual, theres a lot of votes to lose if you force people to choose
between their religion and a political party...
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #5
35. I note that when many Catholics have to pick religion or
divorce, they go with divorce. Lots of divorced 'Catholics' out there, they remarry and the works. There is the choice and how they make it.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. That is a specious argument.
Catholics Support Healthcare Reform, Including Coverage for Abortion
<snip>
While Catholic voters are split on President Obamas ideas for healthcare reform, they do want to see costs lowered and overwhelmingly support a government plan that would make health insurance available to the uninsured.

Large majorities of Catholic voters support health insurance coverage for abortionseither in a private or a government-run scheme:

when a pregnancy poses a threat to the life of a woman (84 percent)
when a pregnancy is due to rape or incest (76 percent)
when a pregnancy poses long-term health risks for the woman (73 percent)
when test results show a fetus has a severe abnormal condition (66 percent)
Opinion is split on whether insurance plans should cover abortion whenever a woman and her doctor decide it is appropriate (50 percent support and 50 percent oppose).

Catholic voters believe the US Catholic bishops are wrong on healthcare reform. Sixty-eight percent disapprove of US bishops saying that all Catholics should oppose the entire healthcare reform plan if it includes coverage for abortion and 56 percent think the bishops should not take a position on healthcare reform legislation in Congress.

Despite what many conservatives argue, Catholic voters are against refusal clauses for institutions that take taxpayer dollars. Sixty-five percent said that hospitals and clinics that take taxpayer dollars should not be allowed to refuse certain procedures or medications based on religious beliefs. In addition, 60 percent believe that hospitals and clinics that take taxpayer dollars should be required to include condoms as part of HIV prevention.
<snip>
It is telling that the US bishops have done two polls on abortion recently. On neither occasion did they poll only Catholics. We did and the results are clear: US Catholic voters see reproductive healthcare as part of a comprehensive healthcare packageand that includes abortion for women who need it.

Pollster John Russonello from Belden Russonello and Stewart said, We have been chronicling the opinions and voting patterns of Catholics for many years and the lesson of todays survey is consistent with our previous findings: Catholic views on healthcare and abortion are mainstream American views.

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/CatholicsSupportHealt...

An August poll by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life found that almost one-half of U.S. Catholics think that abortion should be legal in all or nearly all cases.

Jon O'Brien, president of Catholics for Choice, said many of the bishops are "in a tailspin" after unsuccessfully urging Catholic voters to make abortion a priority.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. well obviously the politicians disagree with you
even if 40% of the catholics who now vote dem left it would hurt at election time... the important part of what you posted was a 50% split on whether insurance plans etc should cover it....
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. See post # 9.
This is what the Bishops use as their 'facts':
"Sixty percent of those favoring reform oppose and only 25 percent support measures that would require people to pay for abortion coverage with their federal taxes.

They ARE NOT polling only Catholics. They are using misleading figures that support their position, and present them as if they represent 'only Catholics.' Unless someone looks at their polling methods, this fact is overlooked.

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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. erm you do realise that it dosent matter what you say, the politicians must have looked at the numbe
id say that probuably a majority of catholics who actually attend mass etc etc are against their taxes going to pay for abortions... and you can be sure even if 90% of catholics were for abortion the church would not change its stance....
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. That whooshing noise that you heard
was the results of the poll using only Catholics flying over your head.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. whoosh yourself, you do realise that there is a difference between a cultural catholic
i believe people call them cafeteria catholics, and the catholics who are active members of the church, i can bet that shortly there will be tonnes of people on this thread who identify as catholic but never go to mass apart form the holy days etc... and anyway as i said it dosent matter what the congregation want, the church is not a democracy.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. Whoosh again!
I don't care what any church's hierarchy is. When the leaders run out and give numbers that they claim represents THEIR MEMBERS when they don't, then they are lying.

I don't care if a Wiccan leader ran out with results like that. That person can't say they are just reflecting those of Wiccan belief if they didn't poll only Wiccans.

Religious leaders like to banter about nebulous claims that support THEIR views.
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MattBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #18
39. the church is not a democracy
which is why they should be politely told to back off. Or not so politely. I don't need decisions made by a former Nazi Youth member in Italy being forced down my throat.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
29. It's not their votes that hurt us. Catholic voters are largely open-minded.
But the leadership of their church isn't Democratic, and doesn't particularly care what the members want. They set the "rules," and all of the lay members can either shut up or leave the church.

It's shocking, really. And sad. All of these American Catholics are born into a religion with beauty and ceremony and mystery, things that many human hearts crave--whether from a religion or not. They grow up under the guidance of priests who genuinely care about their congregations, and enjoy a profound sense of belonging and community. And most of all, many of them truly and sincerely believe that Catholicism is the will of God. You see your brothers and sisters in the church spending money to alleviate suffering, to feed the hungry, to help the poor. Being Catholic becomes part of an identity so deep that it's hard to imagine yourself outside of it.

And then, they grow to adulthood and realize that if they want to keep that identity that means SO much to them...they have to put up with what the bishops, the cardinals, and the Vatican leaders choose to do. The framework of their lives has been constructed around the church--is it any wonder that so many Catholics feel conflicted, but remain in the church anyway? When you have the choice between destroying the beloved structure of your life and building one that's new and unfamiliar, sometimes the easiest and least painful answer is to decide to prioritize YOUR parish and YOUR church, and try to ignore all of the rest. You tell yourself that the people YOU know and interact with spiritually are good people, you pray that the leadership has a change of heart someday, and you vote for the candidates that YOU believe are right. But you don't leave the church. You keep right on supporting the church that, in turn, supports and legitimizes the leadership--the leadership that spends money and power to oppose the things you care about FAR more effectively than you could ever spend your one little vote.

I would imagine that being a liberal American Catholic is a mixture of intense joy, pain, and grief these days. I have friends who are Catholic, and who are the best damned liberals and activists I've ever known--the generous types who see a problem and don't wait for someone ELSE to fix it. They dive in headfirst, arms and wallets and hearts wide open. I would like to live to see the day when THESE people are the ones in charge of the church. My god, think of how much good could be accomplished, how much suffering and sickness could be comforted, if the people at the helm of the church directed all of their time, energy, and money toward THOSE ends instead of propping up church propaganda about abortion and birth control. I hope it happens someday--for the sake of my dear friends, and for the poor of the world who could be helped so much more than they currently are by the resources that the RCC controls.

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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:47 AM
Response to Original message
6. I am waiting for the day when the DSM-IV acknowledges magical thinking as a serious mental disorder
These people are gravely mentally ill and should be in serious psychotherapy at the very least, not legislating their delusions.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:13 AM
Response to Original message
10. Because the United States that used to be is slowly going down the drain. Maybe it is time
to clean house, and start voting new people in who believe in the Constitution


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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
25. ATTENTION! ATTENTION!
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 07:05 AM by Are_grits_groceries
I am pointing out the Catholic Bishops because they were the group there. I believe that those who are of the Catholic faith have to follow their own conscience in dealing with their actions. I believe that about ANY religion.

What I do CARE about and OBJECT to is this bold interjection of a religion into our legislative process as I have stated ad nauseum.

If 'The Church of Grits & Shrimp' were to be in that same position, and its hierarchy demanded that an amendment read in a manner that met with approval, then I would expect and hope people would raise hell.

I am at the point that hell should be raised literally to give those fundies or whoever the Devil to fight in person.

Edit: It's too damn early to be wearing out my shift key or 'caps lock.'
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Ineeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. You are exactly and 100% correct.
I find it amazing, particularly here on DU, that you get an argument! My hair bursts into flames on this issue, too. I remember a saying from the Roe v Wade era: "Get your rosaries off my ovaries." Sad that we're still fighting that battle after all these years.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
27. Because all but a few of our leaders are venal cowards.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
30. Your elected officials are making the decision - they make legislation
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. The elected officials
are apparently cahooting with religious leaders out of a matter of faith or ideology. The chosen heads of such religion are involved intimately in the process.

Unless one is able to follow all the entangled lines connecting the cahooting, it is very hard to follow what an elected person may be doing and with who.

I realize that cahooting is as old as the Republic. However hard my goal may be, I want to keep religious cahooting to a minimum.
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
33. Thanks for posting the results of the poll.
What it exemplifies is the dramatic differences in what the Catholic laity believe and what the hierarchy believes.

If people read the some of the speeches given by the bishops during Vatican II, they would be amazed just how progressive many of them were.
Firstly, they overwhelmingly rejected the schemata that had been presented to them by the Curial officials who had monopolized the key positions on the preparatory commissions. The revolt was led by none other than Pope John XXIII who disassociated himself form the Curia's defensive view of the council and urged the bishops to undertake a great renewal of the Church. The headlines read "Bishops in Revolt!"

Unfortunately, Pope John died before the Council could address two major issues, birth control and celibacy. When Paul became pope he was clearly in the minority, but powerful camp of the rigid conservatives and disallowed the council from having any further discussion on these two important issues.

Many, if not most Catholics don't even know that Pope John XXIII formed a commission of priests, laity and bishops to review the Church's teachings on contraception. The majority of the commission voted in favor of revising the Church's position. There was a last minute attempt to pack the commission with those opposing a change in the Church's teachings. Included, was Karol Wojtyla, the future John Paul II, who declined to attend the last session since he was busy writing what was to become Humanae Vitae rejecting any change in the Church's condemnation of contraception.

Far too many people don't realize just what a devious person he was. He was a phony back slapping politician who during Vatican II, because it was dominated by progressives, appeared to be progressive supporting change. The fact of the matter was he was an agent of the radical secret Opus Dei cult that wanted to turn back the clock to the Dark Ages and resented every change that Vatican II had enacted.

This marked the beginning of the end of the Catholic Church for millions of Catholic laity, especially in Europe, where the people were far more informed on the issues. The conservatives gained complete control of the hierarchy and appointed increasingly more medieval minded priests to positions of authority. This was intensified under Pope John Paul II resulting in a church in which the laity share little in common with the leadership. It is a strange situation and it would take someone with Pope John's fortitude to break the present impasse. The likelihood of this happening in the near future is remote at best. The present leadership thinks that Pope John XXIII was a disaster and that Vatican II was a colossal mistake that was as harmful as opening Pandora's box.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
34. Tax them, NOW!
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
36. Religion IS Politics...
Think about it...the major organized religions are very much like political parties. They seek power and influence by sheer numbers to influence poitics and policy all over the world. More more they control, the more power they accumulate and the wealthier and more pervasive they can become.

There are many politicians who tap into the religious political bases and see pandering to various religious factions as a means to raise money or get votes...or both. In return, the organized religion, like a lobbyist, can and do influence policy and politics.

While there's supposed to be a wall between church and state, as long as millions put their faith as a major consideration in their politics, you'll have politicians who will do their bidding. One hopes that there's a balance and those special interests can be put in check, but in these polarizing times, ALL special interests and doing what they can to find a wedge or means of gaining or keeping their power.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. That doesn't mean
we should avert our eyes from blatant manifestations of Church cahooting with State. If we don't keep pointing it out and try fighting it, it will be more entrnched than it already is.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. You Are Very Right...
...and why I put a spotlight on it. It's when organized religion goes "underground"...like the C Street group, that's where the real damage is done.
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Tommy_Carcetti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
41. So let me get this straight....
....everyone who previously claimed how the Catholic Church is "falsely pro-life" and how they only care about life when it comes to the abortion issue, and how they never would support something that would help the quality of life, like better access to health care for all.....everyone now is p'oed because the Catholic Church supports ("supports", not "wrote" mind you) the House Health Care Reform Bill post-Stupak Amendment. So the Catholic Church is now on record as being anti-capital punishment, anti-Iraq War, pro-Health Care Reform, and many Catholic organizations (such as Catholic Charities and Catholic Worker) are instrumental in poverty relief.......yet apparently some people will still find stuff to bitch about.

I hate single-issuers. I really, really hate single issuers.
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Tippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. Single issue voters..have ruined a lot of good legislation
Without the Stupak Amendment the HR 3962 would not have passed it's as simple as that...But that Amendment has allowed the fight to continue...
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. So you are happy that
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 10:56 AM by Are_grits_groceries
a group of Reps presented a problem at the 11th hour and it was one that had to be approved by the US Catholic Bishops?????

This is a third rail issue anyway. However, as I tried to point out in my post, the meddling of the Church was beyond the pale.

Did you not read how they meddled in Aids funding for Africa?

If it's a single issue, the issue for me is why is any religious group being given so much power in our governmental processes? I don't care if it's abortion or whatever, they have no right.
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Tippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. Look...Many Church Groups or different religions if you will
Believe Abortion is wrong not just Catholics..I am pro choice, I feel it is a womans business if she wants to have an abortion...it is between her and her God..At the same time I am a Catholic who knows not everyone believes the same as I do...Abortion is wrong in my mind except in the cases of rape incest or to protect the life of the mother but each of us has the responsibility, because we were created equally to respect the rights of others. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion but the old adage is true Opinions are like A-s H--es everyone has one...Remember Free Speech!
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Tommy_Carcetti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Nothing had to be approved by the US Catholic Bishops.
It works for a good selling point on having health care reform perhaps appeal to a broader audience but that's about it.
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #41
45. I am very intolerant of a church
that holds themselves up as the ONE TRUE CHURCH the UNIVERSAL CHURCH and a church that says that they are tolerant of any church as long as these churches believe that this ONE TRUE CHURCH is the only way to god. Very intolerant of a church that has started so many wars, killed so many people, forced others to believe as they believe all in the name of their god.

The Roman Catholic Church is a corporation/government. Any church that forces themselves on others is in my mind no more than a big thug and bully.

It is okay to kill in the name of god??
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
43. Obama continues to 'bless' input from religious entities in expanding faith-based initiatives.
He should have closed that office down. Instead, he has sought to expand the reach of such initiatives, which serves to strengthen their bargaining power, IMO.
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bamacrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
49. Fine if they want a voice, tax them.
There is a lot of money that goes to these churches that is tax free because they are supposed to be separate. If they weigh in on political matters and try to influence debate they should pay taxes.
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
50. because there are too many religiously insane in the Senate and House


that's why.
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BolivarianHero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
51. If you oppose the secular state, stay the fuck home...
You're too stupid and too ignorant to make an informed choice at the ballot box.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
52. Because within the structure of our phony rep democracy, there are very real strains of theocracy
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
53. kicking back to pg. 1
nt
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
54. Are there not still faith based offices in all of the departments?
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