DU - Men's group (II)

[comtec]

I would like to see a DU - Men;s group started as a sub-section of the support forum.

This will be a place where progressive, liberal men can discuss their issues.
Men need support, especially from other men who can understand what they are going through.
GD is not the correct place for divorced men, or divorcing men to open up their chests.
Younger men may have issues they need the advice of older men on (am I too young to be marrying, is he worth it? Should I think about saving for retirement?)
Men also have health issues - prostate cancer, obesity, heart problems, etc.
Men have divorce and child raising issues and questions that other men may be better to respond to.
A posting in GD means anyone is allowed to vent and air whatever they want in response.
from all other Men's issue postings so far some very angry, hateful things have been said.

that is not the place for men to be placing their issues.

NO MISOGYNY OF ANY KIND WILL BE TOLERATED!
You may come to complain and get support, but if you show a pattern of belittling women YOU WILL BE REMOVED FROM THE GROUP

Women will NOT be excluded.

ALL OVERTLY SEXIST COMMENTS WILL BE DELETED!
as soon as a moderator sees or is alerted to a sexist sub-thread forming IT WILL BE REMOVED and the participants will be warned!
It's like baseball.... 3 strikes and you're out.

This is for men of one race... human. ALL Ethnic ,cultural, and sexual backgrounds are welcome.

I have the 10 donating members necessary, I have Emailed moderators, I have heard nothing further.
This does not strike me as a overly controversial issue... men need support like anyone else.
I have posted what I think is a fair and goo mission statement and basic rules.
All posts to this thread should be along those lines.

*****

one last thing.

there are many places online for men to congregate and talk.
most of them are not woman friendly in the slightest, and many of them are very conservative and um.. yeah.
I want a safe place on the net to discuss important things with other liberal men. As well as women.
But women being spiteful, or insulting need not apply, just as men being spiteful and insulting towards women need not bother.

Moderators, Please read the emails I sent, and consider the previous examples of how much a Men's Forum is NEEDED for us liberal men.
a safe place to talk, and support each other on line.
Moderated to keep us from taking things too far which we'll regret
a gentle touch to remind us there are TWO genders, and that we BOTH need to work together.

Thank you.

[comtec]

1. WOO HOO minus recs

I love being on such a progressive board!

[vadawg]

2. dude, i minus reccd it cause i just dont like the idea, dont fret it...

[comtec]

6. Which is exatly my point

ONLY on a progressive board can such a thing be seen as bad.

where else are men suppose to discuss things that affect us with other progressive men?

Any other site out there has been hijacked by conservative misogynists!

[vadawg]

10. no im from the other way mate, if im with the guys then its the guys

its sports, fishing, hooters, etc etc etc

[comtec]

11. LOL that's not really what I'm trying to set up

A men's forum here should be about the serious stuff mostly.
I mean the fishing, etc, I suppose those sub threads will pop up.
we ARE men LOL

But it's mostly for men who need to know they are not alone in how they are feeling about something.

I would kill for this group to be open right now.
I have pain that you can believe.
I need to know other's thoughts. That im not alone.

I know maybe it's narcissistic, but I NEED this group... and I want it |HERE, at DU, becasue this is the only place I really feel comfortable and safe.
How odd is that a MAN saying something like that?

[vadawg]

12. lol i know thats why i unrecced ;)

i wasnt poo pahing it just showing my unsolidarity with the non sports/hooters/guns thing

well i gotta go buddy, shift is ending you have a good day and good luck with your forum...

[comtec]

13. I appreciate your honesty

but :shrugs: oh well.

[old mark]

45. Well, who are you to unrec something I LIKE?

This is a dumb idea which should be gone.
Unrecing the unrec.

mark

[DemBones DemBones]

3. Unless the rules for requesting a group have changed, you need

to e-mail the admins, not the mods. As I remember, I had to e-mail Skinner, specifically. If you haven't checked the rules, maybe that's your problem.

[comtec]

4. I have, and I have sent my list of ten

However simply proposing the idea only requires a thread with an outline.
How else are you going to bring up such a discussion to hammer out the details?

As far as I can tell there is no way to message more than one person at a time.

[DemBones DemBones]

8. If you e-mailed the admins, not the mods, and

you sent a mission statement and a list of ten who want the group, they should get back to you. I did have my mission statement approved by the group first, so I guess that was required. That's all I can advise.

[comtec]

9. Skinner and Earl G

Who is higher up than they are?

[bluetrain]

5. What's your mission statement?

[comtec]

7. I don't have in so many words, but it's in the OP

For men to have a safe place to discuss things.
a place that is moderated and not GD
A place for progressive men, not hate-filled bigots.
How complex does a mission statement really need to be?

There have been many posts in similar threads admitting such a group is needed.

Dirty laundry does not have to be aired in public all the time.

A side support-group is all that is needed

[bluetrain]

14. I have no problem with the idea of it, but it seems GD as is most of DU is already a boy's club

these days so maybe you're not getting bites on this because many of the other men (and women) feel very comfortable lording over the boards espousing hate-filled bigotry.

This place barely resembles the board I first joined.

[comtec]

15. There is no way i'd bear my soul in GD

And I'm asking for a place that can be more strictly moderated.
There are a great many sexist remarks that I feel have no place in certain discussions.

and you also just laid out WHY I don't want to go to those other sites.

I want this ins a place that is more or less equal, and safe.

[bluetrain]

16. I think it would help if you were a little more descriptive with the purpose

Men's ---------

Support group, ok? But support with what? Existing? It's vague. People find it easier to latch on to the specific even if things may veer off topic.

[comtec]

17. Did you demand such detail of the woman's group?

They have two

Is there really a need to say "YOU MUST OBEY, here is the list of things you may talk about AND YOU MAY NOT DEVIATE!"

Is it not enough that there are simply guidelines, and rules for not going too far?

There are thoughts and feelings no one can predict coming up.

Why should those be excluded if they are not violent, or hateful?

[bluetrain]

18. I'm not a part of either of those and wasn't even aware they existed. Just offering suggestions

[comtec]

19. I'm sorry... thank you for the suggestion

But I think a more nebulous group would be best for now. If more specific outlines are needed they can be added.
I think you could create an entire sub forum, for both the full spectrum of men and women's needs.

I doubt the two women's forums are close to enough here. You have Femism and everything else.
I'm hardly advocating a Man-ism group (although it was in my mind when I first started, it no longer is now)
just a support group.
after all, unhappy unbalanced liberal men can become freepers.
don't under estimate he dark power of a shattered heart.

I'd rather like to avoid that.

[Obamanaut]

20. K/R nt

[TexasObserver]

21. Given the wide range of forums at DU, why wouldn't Men have one?

It boggles the mind that there are DUers who actually oppose a Men's forum.

[DangerousRhythm]

24. I don't get it either.

I support this and I'm a woman, just for the record. As for DU being a boys' club, I have never gotten that impression at all, honestly. I don't see what the big deal is about having a "men's issues" specific group. If we have a women's group, why not have a men's group too? I'm sure men have things they might feel more comfortable discussing with other men just as women might have things they prefer to discuss with other women, equally in a safe space. I'm satisfied with the OP's intention to keep any kind of bigotry, racism, sexism, etc. out of the mix. He says women wouldn't be excluded, after all. There are a ton of specific groups so it's a bit bizarre there would be so much controversy over this. Anyway, thumbs up from me... go for it and good luck!

[TexasObserver]

28. I doubt I would even use it, but that's not the point here, IMO.

The point is that not having one is discriminatory against men, and wholly without justification.

I think the whole story of 9-11 has not been told, but I don't feel a need to go into the 9-11 dungeon and talk about it.

I support the second amendment, but I understand what it means, and therefore understand that regulation of the right is fully within the law. I don't feel a need to go into that forum, either.

It is clear that DU's admins will have effective control of any such forum, and there is no reason to believe it will have posts any different from posts already on the GD board. The truth is that those who oppose it wish they could eliminate the posts on GD which support men's rights.

Here's a topic: are stay at home dads sometimes treated by their wives the way some stay at home moms are treated poorly by their bread winner husbands? That speaks to abuse related to power position in the family, and the plight of some stay at home dads is the same as that faced by some stay at home moms.

Equality cannot exist unless it is honored.

[Lyric]

22. Sorry, but I just don't see the need.

We don't need a men's group any more than we need a white people group. We live in a patriarchal nation. The whole BOARD is a men's group, in that respect. The issues that you mention are all issues that fall neatly under the categories that already exist. To talk about men's health, go to "Health" or GD. To talk about divorce and child custody, go to the Parenting group or the Divorce group. There is no need for a separate version of those groups based on gender. Shall we gender-segregate every forum on the site? Men's and Women's Health? Men's and Women's Parenting? It doesn't make any sense.

Perhaps a fatherhood group could be valuable, but a "Men's" group in a largely-American forum is just not necessary. Such a thing would serve no purpose or need that the regular forums do not already provide.

[comtec]

23. The "patriarch" are exactly the kind of people you want to avoid liberal turning into

Most men here, on DU, are NOT like the patriarch.
We are in fact fighting WITH you to over turn the patriarch.

I just realized I can never make this case to you.

There are no circumstances where you can possibly fathom a need for progressive men to need one another's support.

How sad.

Yes the patriarch is not right.

But we liberals and progressives are not a part of that patriarch.

Liberal men need support. Going to a men's group will allow such support.

Question... would you bear your soul about what bothers you about your life as a woman in GD?
I imagine you would (rightfully) post that in the woman's issue, or Feminism group.

Why should liberal men not have the same?

You will laugh, and scoff, but Truly liberal men are a minority. The majority of men are... less than understanding.

[Lyric]

27. Um, I was using "patriarchal" in a factual way.

It's not about whether or not we WANT our society to be patriarchal. It already IS. Patriarchal is not a pejorative and was not meant to be; it's a factual descriptor, not a subjective one. In our society, men hold the power--politically, socially, and economically. It's not an insult to men to acknowledge that fact.

If you want a group where you can oppose the patriarchal nature of our society, I highly recommend DU's Feminists group. You see, Feminism isn't about advocating for women...it's about advocating for gender equality. That's what you want, right? Well, it already exists. The other forums like Health and Parenting exist for issues beyond that. Glad I could point them out to you. Enjoy!

[comtec]

31. I have been attacked viciously in the feminism group

I was told not to post there any more.
That is when I realized I could not get answers there.
And I realized I needed to know if other men, progressive men, felt the same way.

I want to understand why I was so viciously attacked.
But I imagine it's because of my gender, and all the suffering women have been under. and still are.

I'm sorry you feel that progressive men are the same as the freepers.
You have my pity that you can not see that men with feelings need to discuss what's wrong.

I truly hope you can come to some sense of acceptance in your life of men.

But I will keep fighting for this group, because I need answers, and a safe place, online... since my safe place in real life is now gone!

[Lyric]

36. I took a peek into the Feminists group.

And found this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Do you truly not understand why your OP was horrifically offensive? Here, let me re-write the pertinent parts of it for you, and I'll switch out the gender terms for racial ones. Maybe then you'll "get it."

Do Black People like White People?

This is not as sarcastic or flame-baiting a questions as it sounds.
I'm serious.

I see so much racism against white people whenever black issues come up.

Do y'all actually like white people, or are we all just targets for hate and loathing?

I'm not going to argue most of the points that are brought up against white people. I tend to agree.
My mother's supports racial equality, and I grew up trying to be a "proper and sensitive white"... all that got me was a broken heart and walked on by black people.

That only means that I'm not as sympathetic to the relationship issues black people have with white people.

On a political scale I think the mistreatment of black people is unforgivable.

(redacted because I'm not going to translate a reference to your sex life, but those who are interested can click the link above and read this paragraph)

So... tell me where I'm such a horrible person for having been born with white skin and not black skin, and how I can improve myself to your standards?

If you don't hate white people, how can I be better? What do you want?

And if you do... why? I have genuine interest in all answers.

flame away.

I know it's probably too much to hope, but can you see WHY the women in the Feminists group weren't exactly pleased with your post? It was ugly, bigoted, and frankly, didn't seem the least bit sincere. If THAT is an example of what you intend to post in a "Men's Group", then you might as well not bother because it'll never stand. Whether you admit it or not, what you posted was offensive as hell. You wouldn't be allowed to post something like that in a Men's Group either.

[comtec]

37. if you are going to attack me on what i posted.. actually POST my writings

not some re-write that fits your needs.

assuming all is equal, i was still asking a fair question...

how can i be a better person?

that was never answered.

you only attacked me.

[Lyric]

44. It's called an analogy.

a⋅nal⋅o⋅gy  <uh-nal-uh-jee>

–noun, plural -gies.
1. a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.
2. similarity or comparability: I see no analogy between your problem and mine.
3. Biology. an analogous relationship.
4. Linguistics.
a. the process by which words or phrases are created or re-formed according to existing patterns in the language, as when shoon was re-formed as shoes, when -ize is added to nouns like winter to form verbs, or when a child says foots for feet.
b. a form resulting from such a process.
5. Logic. a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basis of the known similarity between the things in other respects.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/analogy

Obviously it was a pointless analogy, since the correlation seems to have flown right over your head.

[Bonobo]

47. Why don't you stick to this OP and not bring in stuff from other forums?

DU rules, you know.

[Lyric]

50. He brought the other forum into it first--not me.

When he falsely claimed that he was "viciously attacked" over there as an excuse why the Feminist group isn't a good enough place for the discussion HE wants to have about the patriarchy. Or did you miss that part?

[Bonobo]

53. I saw it. But you brought up the Feminism forum first actually.

"If you want a group where you can oppose the patriarchal nature of our society, I highly recommend DU's Feminists group."

[comtec]

56. Specifically I said you would not bare your soul in GD

But would do that in the Women's or Feminsm groups

that was the only mention I made, and it was only pointing out the need for a group to find consolation from others.

You are the one who used that to attack with.

I was trying to make a sanguine point, about appropriate places for certain topics. Not anyone's right or wrongness to post them.

[Bunny]

39. You came into the Feminists Group and acted like an ass. You got

your head handed to you and rightfully so. It's obvious that you never read the rules for posting in that group. So when you first proposed a Men's Group, I was immediately suspicious of your intentions. There may well be room for a group where issues specific to men can be discussed. I think one area where men tend to get the short stick is child custody/visitation issues. But with you at the helm I'll never believe that it's going to be anything other than the He-Man Women Haters Club.

Now go ahead and whine about being viciously attacked by a feminist, once again.

[comtec]

42. I think you pretty much proved that for me

and I have no desire to be at the helm.
I simply wish there was a group.

I hate being in the spotlight.
i'm a tech, i work on things that need fixing.

But I seem to be the only one willing to take the flames, so here i am.

I realize there is so much hate around men. And so much is deserved.

what i find saddest, is that my posts, were almost always in agreement with the larger point.

I was just asking for clarification.

all i got was attack.

an I have gone through the procedures as laid out.
And I think i've done it correctly.
I have not heard from my IMs so I don't know.

I also did not know how to talk to people about refining it, so I started the threads.

I must say the first thread was far more constructive than this one seems to be.. which is sad.

The entire point of both threads was to figure out how best to structure the group.
How best to be inclusive and set down a foundation that explains what is expected, or lack of same.

Why are you attacking me so viciously?

[Bonobo]

48. THIS is why men need a forum.

OP writes a perfectly reasonable OP and gets SHITSTORMED!

And if there was a Men's Forum, you wouldn't have to worry about this "ass" as you put it, right?

[Bunny]

55. He got 'shitstormed' because we know HIS history.

We question HIS motivations. HIS OP of a few weeks ago wanted a place where men could go and not have to be 'PC'. That's a code word, in case you didn't know.

And if there was a Men's Forum, I would freely participate in it if I chose to, "ass" notwithstanding. That's because I can read and follow rules.

[comtec]

57. And i have apologized for my poor wording...

and explained why.

That aside

You would be welcome to post your thoughts, along with anyone else.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

58. He doesn't have to whine it was apparant n/t

[KG]

41. you posted passive-aggressive flame-bait and have the teremity to whine about being

'viciously attacked'?

[Bonobo]

49. "whine".

[Robb]

34. Hm. What you're saying rather clashes with the Feminist group's mission statement.

I shall highlight what I see as relevant portions.

The purpose of the DU Feminists Group is to provide a safe and non-threatening community where all those interested in discussing and trying to resolve the problems that are inherent to women in society can come and work together free from defending the basic premise that issues do exist which specifically affect and limit women, their rights and their potential.

We believe that women do not start on the same rung as men on the ladder of success; that misogyny and sexism do indeed exist in America circa 2005; and that the progress made for women's rights is being seriously and immediately threatened by this administration.

The goal of this group is to understand the problems (and how they affect women), identify the myriad causes (and how they can limit a woman's vision and opportunity) and propose solutions (and how we can bring those solutions in a meaningful way out into the greater community).

About this Group

- This is not a group to discuss gender, class or sexual orientation rights and issues. It is specifically to discuss women's rights and issues as they affect women from a woman's perspective and experience.

- If, for example, you believe that women have already achieved "full participation in the mainstream of American society..., exercising all privileges and responsibilities thereof in truly equal partnership with men... in all aspects of citizenship, public service, employment, education, and family life,"* then this is not the group for you.

- If, for example, you believe that women who have concerns about the prevalance of pornography in our society are uptight, sexually-repressed prudes who need to be enlightened to the "facts" and "realities" of the sex industry, this is not the group for you.

- The terms "feminist/feminism" and "misogyny" have established meanings in the context of women's history. While terminology may be debated, the denigration of these relevant terms will not be allowed.

- Attempts to minimize or dismiss women and/or the issues being discussed are not welcome.

- Like-minded DUers of all genders are encouraged to participate.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eShirl]

26. I do. (k&r)

[woo me with science]

54. So don't participate. nt

[etherealtruth]

25. Why not?

I can understand that there are some issues that may have a uniquely male perspective.

Using the example of divorce and child custody (I am a divorced custodial mother), I clearly understand that there are issues for both the custodial and non-custodial (often men) parents. I can understand seeking advice and commiseration. I have no doubt there are many other issues that could be productively discussed.

I also know that the majority of men here are not misogynistic a-holes (there are more than a few that just don't "get it," but again, the majority do)) that could benefit.

[H2O Man]

29. Definitely recommended!

I want to participate in this.

[trumad]

30. I asked in part one... what the hell would we talk about..

and the consensus answer is child support and custody issues. I don't think that one subject warrants a mens section at DU.

seriously though---what else would we talk about?

[comtec]

32. Did you even read the OP?

or are you just being an ass?

[trumad]

65. You're kidding right...

"am I to young to marry"

Ugg?

[comtec]

70. you do have a funny bone right?

that was meant to be humorous, but not a serious topic post.... but who knows really.

Look you don't like this ,

fine, unrec like I am sure you have done.

You don';t have to come into the group, or read the posts.

why are you so against liberal men having a place to comfort one another on issues?

[Bonobo]

51. Who is "we"?

If you got nothing to talk about, you wouldn't have to enter, right?

So the real question is: How does this THREATEN you, Trumad?

[KittyWampus]

33. So you did all that was necessary to start a sub-forum and then start THIS thread to talk about

why the Admins haven't fallen over backward to accommodate you?

After they JUST got done reshuffling forums?

[comtec]

35. I think I did anyway

and why do you think they'd even want to help me with this?

You are assuming that DU works like the rest of the world.

In it's long history, DU has never has a men's group.

I have no cynical doubt that this will go by the wayside.
I don't see how a support group for liberal men never started unless there was such an uproar from... others that made it undesirable.
there is a need, but is there a will?

there is a NEED, a real honest to god NEED for civil rights legislation so all are equal under the law... but it's not there yet.

there is a need for men to feel that they can BE vulnerable.

without that safety net... you get the system we have now... where men are not permitted to HAVE feelings, let alone talk about them.

so you tell me... why are there no such groups in the long history of DU?

[eShirl]

38. "the system we have now... where men are not permitted to HAVE feelings, let alone talk about them."

A male classmate of mine opened my eyes (and his) to this. He confided to me a situation with a group of female classmates that he was very uncomfortable with, but afraid of ridicule or being thought of as a "wimp" or unmanly if he spoke up about it. I said to him, "Imagine the same situation, but with the genders reversed - one woman and a group of men. How would you describe such a situation/." He was surprised to realize, "Well, that would be sexual harassment!"

[Bonobo]

52. +1

[Mother Of Four]

43. I think it's a good idea myself.

If people truly want equality...then it has to be equal. What about the men that face crap every day because they support women in the workplace, or their right to choose? Especially with people like us (We live in small town NC) where the progressive/liberal man isn't that visible?

What about the men who are having issues with their sons, widowers who are feeling lost and confused, the new father who is struggling with what his role should be and worried that they may not be able to support their new family? What about the mother who is trying to raise their sons to be strong, supportive AND open minded? Face it, we think about things differently.

Honestly, I think it's needed. Just like women need a place to talk about their issues, men do too.

[Bonobo]

46. I strongly support this group.

Men need to talk and seek support amongst themselves just like anyone.

We have pressures and problems that are unique to men and would like a non-threatening environment to discuss them in.

That is all.

[comtec]

59. Sadly I see the end of this thread.

Again a men's group topic cut short.

the thread is tagged as flaming now
And that usually means, for a topic about men's issues anyway, it'll be locked soon.

I am truly saddened, because I wanted this thread to be productive.
a place to discuss what would and will be discussed in a men's group.

I would like to keep men's issues out of GD, simply because they do not belong there, and any time a man does try to find support or solace, for something that does not fall into one of the neat categories, he is flamed by the feminists for not being feminist-friendly enough or a a misogynist or by freepers as not being MANLY enough.

We liberal men need a safe haven - not a free-for-all (that's what freeper land is).

If not here on DU... then where?

[Bonobo]

62. Did the Admins write you back or not?

If they didn't, they should -and you should wait for it or write again.

If they did, what's the problem?

[comtec]

64. not yet

nor gotten direction or re-direction from the messages I did send.
I only think I have gone through the proper channels, and I got tired of waiting with no word.
Which is why i started this new thread.

only time, and skinner, will tell how this plays out.

[Bonobo]

68. Well I sent my own letter and they usually get back to you in my experience.

Let this thread take its natural course. Do not get involved in any more flamefights on this thread. (Hint: Don't respond if THEY are already angry. Angry people can't LISTEN).

And then, let's wait for word back from the Admins. OK?

[NYC_SKP]

66. I think the flaming tag refers only to the number of replies, 50 or more, nothing more.

I hope mods will just remove any offensive replies and not lock the thread.

[comtec]

67. I think I agree

I think that the other thread that were locked were flaming and had fewer than 50 (I think anyway).

There are no outwardly offensive or illegal posts... just very unpleasant ones.

There were far fewer inflammatory posts on the original actually and it was dead after 145 posts and 4 hours, and imho, was a far far better thread.

[NYC_SKP]

73. I did a quick scan just now, posted to a 49 reply thread, it turned to flames.

I'm that powerful (lol).

50 replies indicates lots of discussion, gets a "burning issue" icon, not to denote flame in the flamebait sense.

[Heidi]

69. You are not helping your cause by calling out the DU Admins.

You started your other men's group thread on Nov. 1. I don't know what day you emailed the DU Admins, but it is now Nov. 8. I'm sure you think a week is long enough for the Admins to discuss to accept your proposal, deny it, or ask for changes, but calling out the Admins for not getting back to you as quickly as you think they should and assuming they are not interested probably are not great ideas.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[comtec]

71. Something along the lines of "please hold..." would have sufficed

but you're right. if i can ill delete me post.

[NYC_SKP]

60. The utility of a Mens' Issues Group on DU seems self-evident. K and R.

For all the reasons you mention and many more.

Several of the threads on this matter posted in the recent past revealed reasons that I hadn't even considered.

I trust the request for a new forum will be granted.

NYC_SKP

K and R.

[demwing]

61. Comtec, I support the creation of this group

and will email the management to voice that support.

[Bonobo]

63. Perhaps that is what is needed. I will as well. nt

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DavidDvorkin]

74. K&R

I've supported this proposal from the start.

[maddezmom]

75. locking

The moderators have alerted admin to your post but please don't post again on the subject until you hear back from admin.