Has DU been invaded by washington insiders?

[Go2Peace]

I am honestly asking the question to others here. Because it sure feels like it.


This board is acting like this (HCR) is such incredible and great legislation???

Someone please explain to me. We have a majority and had problems because half of them would not listen to the people. We were told we would get true "reform" and some kind of universal coverage, and we end up with a compromised bill designed as much to keep the death merchants happy as to really reform the system to work for people and reduce our cost to the levels of other societies. In the middle of it all we get an amendment that further weakens women's rights, as well as having to compromise in a manner that will actually hurt many lower class families, and still will not cover everyone.

Don't get me wrong, We have a bill that personally I will support. But come on, is this really a great outcome? Why does it feel like we have so reduced our expectations that we will fight just to be treated like an unwanted stepchild?

I don't get it? I support the Dems and will continue to, but I am mad as hell because they had a majority and many of them chose to play politics with my life! This is "better" government than we have had in a while. But does this really look to folks like government to be so proud of?

Sorry to rain on the parade, but this legislation, while welcome, just screams that we have not nearly "arrived" where we need to be, neither as a party, nor as a country. So excuse me if I am not quite in the "celebratory" mood.

[The Magistrate]

1. No, Sir, It Is Occupied As Usual By Rank And File Democrats

Most of us, even most of us object to portions of this Bill strenuously, are glad to see it pass.

[emulatorloo]

8. Thank you for putting it so clearly.

[Go2Peace]

38. Wow, this was knocked from 15 recs to under 0 in less than 10 minutes, what the hell happened?

[scentopine]

48. The unrec fairies wave their magic wand and -

there goes another diverse opinion. Its so easy, just press a button, it requires no more than a reptilian reaction.

Regarding health care:

Democratic leadership has been grooming us from the start that they would be defeated from the onset of discussions. So the first thing they did was meet with all the republicans to assure them real reform is off the table. Then they met with all the insurance executives and concede real reform is off the table. Then they started grooming us to accept far, far less than what is truly needed. Telling us over and over - the republicans won't allow it, the blue dogs won't allow it, on and on. The truth is, our democratic leaders don't want reform because they collect millions and millions from insurance companies - cash that comes from the insurance premiums you pay.

Some say that's "realism". I say its fucking cowardice, a breakdown of ethics and morals and a failure of democratic leadership to fight for principals and define the debate.

Instead, Rahm Emanuel has been playing kissy face with Fortune 500, and telling us "fuck you" over and over that real reform is impossible and this is the best we can hope for. What the fuck? Are we governed by insurance companies? Yes.

Most democrats believe so and are afraid to really fight for what's right. We should be so lucky to have regular protests - laugh all you want about tea-baggers but they are have had a major impact I assure you and still define the debate.

We ("centrist/realist" democrats especially singled out for cowardice) started and continue two GODDAMN wars that are directly responsible for 100,000+ deaths of civilians and bailed out GODDAMN Wall Street to trillions of dollars and suddenly these same democratic "moderates" are complete befuddled over how to save a few lives with single payer and a good public plan. Oh - its the best we could hope for! Total Bullshit. If our leadership organized a protest for single payer - 100,000 would camp out on the mall for a week. But that would upset our corporate masters who are rich because of the purity of the free market.

The US has become obsessed with the legislating the punishment of those who are suffering. The same mentality is also behind the lack of real insurance reform. The sick should be punished, the healthy/wealthy should be rewarded. We worship and reward the rich no matter how they achieved their wealth, we treat them like living gods. We now have a completely imperial and immoral form of government that believes the "free" market is pure and just.

These evil bastards rush in to carpet bomb backwards nations, slaughtering civilians thousands upon thousands of dead bodies, stacked like cord wood. The social costs here at home are staggering. Then they run away like the true cowards they are when faced with challenges here in America that can't be solved with violence.

Nothing can pass through congress with out ending up handing out trillions to Wall Street. Its enough to make you sick. Is that covered under the new plan? No.

[ccinamon]

54. +1,000,000 Awesome post!

Exactly how I feel...thank you for being more coherent and succinct than I could ever be!

My favorite line: "Some say that's "realism". I say its fucking cowardice, a breakdown of ethics and morals and a failure of democratic leadership to fight for principals and define the debate."

[sabrina 1]

66. Excellent post, you should have made it an OP.

So, now that we know that what we thought would work, electing 'more Democrats', doesn't, what is the solution? And please don't say 'better democrats' I heard that after we got a majority in 2006. That was the reason given for Democrats still voting along with Republicans on major Bush policies such as the continuation of funding for the War in Iraq. And for taking Impeachment off the table, among other things.

We got exactly one small crumb during those two years, which was a miniscule raise in the mimimum wage, a few cents that would be doled out over years or something, so little I've forgotten the details. The message then was 'wait 'til we get 'better Democrats' let's work hard for 2008'.

So, this now transcends parties. We are not going to get anything much from Democrats. As someone else said, they are the party of 'Better than Nothing' while the Republicans are the party of 'Nothing'. That's not acceptable. I am at a loss ~

[Hannah Bell]

91. "the party of 'Better than Nothing' while the Republicans are the party of 'Nothing'. "

exactly.

god i'm sick of "i guess you'd rather see mccain there?"

[spiritual_gunfighter]

70. I agree that you should make this an OP

DU would rather call Dennis Kucinich a traitor and call us that find this bill a failure "left wing teabaggers". I support HCR, even watered down shitty HCR but we were sold out on this. It is disappointing that so many on DU would rather prop up the status quo and not demand true reform and beat up on Kucinich and we "left wing teabaggers". Truly a pathetic turn of events I think.

[SidDithers]

73. If the opinion is diverse...

wouldn't you expect the post to hover around 0 total recs? Some agree and rec, some disagree and unrec.

Wouldn't it only be nearly unanimous opinions that generate very high, or very low, rec counts?

Sid

[SammyWinstonJack]

90. +1

[intheflow]

49. Kind of supports the OP's supposition, doesn't it?

[rudy23]

53. The Un-reccing crew of Rahmbots.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[redqueen]

72. What cutesy name would you use for the "bots" unrecing this one?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[uppityperson]

76. could be that a fairly new DUer complaining about DU is taken negatively?

It would be good to put something in your profile, enable it, even state, also since that would let people know a bit more about you, what you want to share. I know, can lie there, but still it can help. And relatively new DUers complaining about DU being invaded strikes the ironic bones of many, hence perhaps the unrecs.

Not calling you "omg a newbie" but trying to give you some info to answer your question "wtf happened"?

[Go2Peace]

39. Deleted - Dupe

[bigtree]

9. It's just a familiar feeling, _Magistrate

That sense that you've been fleeced and could have gotten away without giving up that billfold in your sock.

[The Magistrate]

17. The Outcome Is Far From Ideal, Sir: We Doubtless Agree On That

Nor is this anything close to the end of the fight.

But it is a breach in the wall, and worth a round of cheers accordingly.

[bigtree]

22. Cheers, then. I'm going to retire (for the night) and consider that

. . . having already imbibed my limit without any fanfare or particular attribution at all.

[rug]

47. Rah

[Go2Peace]

11. I agree, but I see much more than glad. There are a ton of folks trying to convince everyone this

bill represents a huge victory. I suppose in a way it does, that the "people" were actually able to get a bill that provides a benefit to them. But really, I don't see how anyone can think of this as great legislation or great government.
In fact, I think we have proven we are not near there yet.

[ecstatic]

13. And tons of folks trying to convince everyone this

bill represents a huge loss.

[PVnRT]

69. Not glad so much as not pissed off

This bill merits a pretty solid "meh," and is likely to be gutted quite a bit by the idiot Blue Dogs in the Senate.

[redqueen]

71. Yup!

It's politics...

[ProSense]

2. "We have a bill that personally I will support. But come on, is this really a great outcome?"

I don't get it: A bill you support passes and you are concerned that people like it?

[Go2Peace]

3. Do you then think it represents what the people wanted?

[saltpoint]

4. If you read down the list of Democrats in the House who voted for this

bill I believe you would be very hard-pressed to level criticisim of them for their support.

I don't hear anyone claiming the bill is perfect, and that isn't the point anyway.

Russ Feingold, by the way, is a Washington insider. I hope that's not a problem when the bill gets over to the Senate.

[scheming daemons]

5. No... it's been invaded by DEMOCRATS... you know, the ones who voted 219-39 tonight

If you're with the "39", you're against the DEMOCRATS.

and this is DEMOCRATIC underground.



Tonight's votes:

The entire Republican Party, except Cao: NO

The Blue Dog Democrats: NO

Dennis Kucinich: NO



Now.... which group is FOR this legislation: Democrats or Republicans?

Which group is AGAINST this legislation: Democrats or Republicans?


The correct answers, proven by the votes tonight, are:

Democrats are FOR this legislation
Republicans are AGAINST this legislation



and you are suprised that this legislations is being supported by the majority of folks on DEMOCRATIC Underground?


If you want to discuss the legislation with folks who agree with you on voting against it, this site has plenty of them:

freepublic.com

[Go2Peace]

14. This idea that it is all about "winning for the party" is a BELTWAY idea. A win to PEOPLE, is

when legislation actually REPRESENTS what they really wanted?

I think these posts are proving that the site is heavily invaded by beltway thinking? The Democratic party is only as good as it represents the people. Or at least I thought that was what the Democratic party bills itself as?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

16. "invaded" You're talking to long term DUers here.

Who are you to decide who is an invader?

[scheming daemons]

21. Exactly... the OP is the one who is NEW to this site, not us

We've been supporting Democrats for years.


The OP is upset that a site called DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND is supporting Democrats. Imagine that.

[Go2Peace]

26. Hillarious. I had to create a new account. I have been here since the beginning.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Go2Peace]

40. That was quite agressive, don't be a jerk. I changed my email and forgot the password.

Antisocial crap you are swinging

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Go2Peace]

42. You're smoking too much of the late night stuff and getting antisocial

cut out the crap.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

33. What was your old DU name?

[prolesunited]

82. Excellent question

We are all waiting for a response -- that is if you are telling the truth.

[scheming daemons]

19. I'll put it simply for you

An analogy:


The people need $10,000.

219 Democrats and 1 Republican voted to give them $5,000.

39 Democrats and 176 Republicans voted to give them $0.


People on this site are proud of the Democrats for partially taking care of the need, even though it doesn't go far enough.


Dennis Kucinich supporters are upset that the Democrats gave the people $5,000 when they need $10,000.

Dennis Kucinich supporters are unwittingly siding with the Republicans, by trying very hard to make sure the people end up with $0 - albeit for different reasons.

[Go2Peace]

30. The trouble is that $10,000 came from the people and we will be bankrupt if we don't get all of it

back (in your analogy).

Our society will not make it 25 more years if we don't get more representation.

Maybe many here are fairly young and to them this looks like progress. And in the interim our financial leaders are with the WTO and no real reform is being delivered there. And at the same time the world is angry because we are not taking our eresponsability toward global warming very seriously in copenhagen.

I have probably been a democrat longer than most on this board. So I think I have a right to be able to make a judgement and this is still not a democratic party to be proud of. Not quite yet. As long as we are not truly moving forward in real terms, we are still losing ground.

So, for me, there is little to celebrate about. And I am stumped as to why folks are talking about this legislation like it is somethign to be proud of.

[Duende azul]

45. To go a little further with your analogy:

The people (not all of them) get the $ 5000.

But to be allowed to give them the money, you pay the corporations a $ 15.000 ransom at the same time.

Not an outcome to be enthusiastic about.

[Xithras]

74. Your analogy is so far off its laughable.

The people needed $10,000 to escape the vampires

219 Democrats and 1 Republican voted to give some of the people $1000, and want the rest to pay $500 to the very vampires they wanted to escape.

[Mind_your_head]

6. Of course! eom

[Birthmark]

7. Good post.

I don't support the bill. But other than that minor detail I pretty much agree with you.

[regnaD kciN]

10. Two answers...

1) "A journey of a million miles begins with a single step." There are many (Ed Schultz, for one) who believe this is only that first step toward an inevitable single-payer system. Sure, this bill is flawed, but it will be a lot easier to fix the flaws of a system already in place than to have to start all over again at square one.

2) 1993 - 1994. Lots of us remember the last time a young, dynamic Democratic president took office, promising "change," and made health-care reform the centerpiece of his agenda. More than a year later, that president had to sheepishly abandon his whole effort, without even getting a vote on a bill in either house of Congress. We also remember what happened soon thereafter: the "Republican Revolution" of November 1994.

Like it or not, Democratic administrations have been trying to move toward one form or another of universal health coverage since FDR -- and this is the first time we've even gotten one chamber to vote out a bill to do that. That's sufficient reason to celebrate, if you ask me, as long as we get back to work Monday morning to make sure that the eventual bill to land on Obama's desk is as good as it can be...and then to continue our efforts to improve the system once it's in place.

[dmr]

34. Good post. It has been a long haul to get us this far & I am happy.

If I could recommend your post, I would.

We still have a lot of work to do, but I'm ready for that. I have a feeling that the well financed Lobbyists, The Fox Disinformation Channel, MSM, Wacky Congress and Batshitcrazy Teabaggers will only get louder, nastier and more disturbing.

We have to give the Conference Cmte, and the Senate the political will & a few kicks in the pants, if necessary, to see this through, and get rid of Stupak's redundant & oppressive bill. And we need to do it NOW! Not next year where it would probably die.

[Democracyinkind]

41. Ja. Those are very good points.

[ecstatic]

12. You're right--you don't get it

[Go2Peace]

15. well, I expect that from you, You are one of the ones I speak of.

[cynatnite]

18. Well, this is DEMOCRATIC underground...a lot of democrats here...

I would think that would give it away.

[Go2Peace]

23. So this site is for party politics? Or people that believe in the principles of the Democratic party

Because I still can't get this idea, and I don't think most registered democrats do either, that if we win a fight but the people aren't represented that are in the majority in the party, that somehow that is something to be excited about?

Amongst registered Democrats, the people in the party overwhelmingly wanted much stronger reform.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

25. Is this site for party politics? You tell me:

"Constructive criticism of Democrats or the Democratic Party is permitted. When doing so, please keep in mind that most of our members come to this website in order to get a break from the constant attacks in the media against our candidates and our values. Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents are not welcome here.

You are not permitted to use this message board to work for the defeat of the Democratic Party nominee for any political office. If you wish to work for the defeat of any Democratic candidate in any General Election, then you are welcome to use someone else's bandwidth on some other website.

Democratic Underground may not be used for political, partisan, or advocacy activity by supporters of any political party or candidate other than the Democratic Party or Democratic candidates. Supporters of certain other political parties may use Democratic Underground for limited partisan activities in political races where there is no Democratic Party candidate.

Do not post broad-brush smears against Democrats or the Democratic Party."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detai...

[Go2Peace]

31. And I have not done so. Saying you are dissapointed and expect the party to represent the people is

not a "smear". And I have not advocated for the removal of any party member, although I have seen many many posts on a regular basis discuss this of the blue dogs, and that seems to be tolerable by the mods, by the way.

I am a registered democrat and have been probably longer than you have been alive. And I certainly have earned the right to expect my party to listen to people like me. I don't see anythign in those rules about blind party loyalty, as you seem to be inferring in attempting to silence my voice.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

32. I didn't "infer" anything. I didn't "imply" anything either.

You asked if the site was about party politics. Indeed, a component of it *is* about party politics as evidenced by the fact that in the rules it states you cannot post things that advocate against the Democratic Party. There is no equivocation there about "You can advocate against the Democratic Party if you feel they aren't really Democrats".

You asked if the site was about party politics. I answered.

[cynatnite]

29. I really don't know what you're looking for here...

This site is about supporting Dems and democratic ideals. The Democratic party is also a big tent party so you may get a lot of opinions and ideas you don't like. It may come as a shock to you, but Obama is a centrist for the most part and this is a center nation. The rest of the country is not as far left as the majority here are on DU.

We did win a fight tonight...a big one, too. While it may not be your ideal health care reform plan, it's still a plan that has a ways to go. It may or may not get better before it gets to Obama's desk. It might even get better after it's signed. Wouldn't be the first time.

The repukes fought this every step of the way...and they lost.

[Go2Peace]

36. 85% of Democrats wanted a strong public option and the majority serious reform

Far more than is in this bill.

So I think I represent "Democrats" and support "democrats". And I support and am part of the "grassroots" of the party. I am not quite sure this site represents the average democrat, which is the point I was making. I think it has a lot of "beltway" representation.

Just like everyone here is always saying how "centrist" the party is. But if you look at polls, the average democratic party member is quite liberal.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

37. You think DU is to the right of the Democrats in the country?

The DU that had Dennis Kucinich winning the Presidential Runoff by a mile while in real life he was out polled by Dr. Stephen T. Colbert?

Your problem is twofold:

First: You keep saying "public option" and "strong reform" and then assuming that people agree with your definition of those two terms.

Second: *NOBODY* is saying "YAY! WE DID IT! THIS IS THE BEST BILL EVER!* People are happy that we have moved forward. That's all.

[Mind_your_head]

20. WOW.....look at the responses in the past 12 minutes!!!!

[bobburgster]

24. Don't get me wrong....

I support this legislation, though I'm not sure how deeply it has been bastardized, but aren't we putting the cart before the horse? Do we not still have to pass a senate bill? Do we not still have reconciliation of both bills?
The odds of this legislation becoming law, in my opinion, are still enormously high.

[lonestarnot]

35. Go have a drink on me.

Maybe then you will be able to wipe the fog from your eyes.

[Go2Peace]

43. I think I will. I see the antisocial crowd has decided to start snarking nasty at me

maybe it is time to take a break.

[rudy23]

57. They're not trying to be the better people, they're trying to run us off.

It's easy to dominate a message board when you know your group has your back, and when you aren't restricted by any desire to be civil.

[SoCalDem]

44. Unfortunately the democratic majority is NOTHING like a republican majority

our success is also our failure. We are a diverse party and our members have minds of their own, no matter how we would love for them all to line up and vote one way, like republicans do.

Until we have a SUPER majority that cancels out the DINO votes, and until that super majority contains a majority of progressives within it, we will always be "splitting the baby", no matter how much we wish it were not so

[Mari333]

46. The mentaility of being 'in the beltway' seems to be the same

a lot of people on DU dont seem to realize that poverty en masse is out there and people will not be able to afford mandated insurance. and yes, some will end up in jail because they cannot afford the taxes they will be forced to pay.
people are fighting over the crumbs offered to us from the masters table..the same table that funds billions of dollars to wars and wall street and is now funding health insurance companies.

[treestar]

50. It's been invaded by Democrats, apparently

How strange!

[intheflow]

51. Probably yes, to a degree.

DU is fairly well-known on the internets, we've even gotten some CM attention over the years. I think we'd be naive if we didn't think some people are paid to come to our site, either to disrupt (as in trolls and other minions) or, as you say, because they have a stake in keeping the leftist Democrats in line with the centrist, corporate, DLC agenda. These actually don't have to be actual workers from the Democratic party. They could just as easily be from the healthcare industry and other special interest groups. Hell, our Wall St. bailout money could be paying trolls to rah-rah everything corporate that's going down.

The Beltway voices do seem strong but I don't know if I see the infiltration as any worse than its been in the past, proportionate to number of members on the site. It's just that there are so many more people on here now they're getting more power to make their voices heard.

[rudy23]

52. I've been talking about this since July. The Dennis Kucinich bashing is a dead giveaway.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Why else would 20-30 people start posting VILE, over the top posts against DU's most beloved progressive, in July of '09? Not exactly primary season--so why would we go after our own like this at such a "random" time?

Could it be that July was when single payer was being swiped off the table, and the healthcare debate began in earnest? Could it be that Dennis was set to become the number one thorn in Rahm/Obama's side from the left?

Of course the anti-DK posts would die down until the next big event in HCR, or the next publicized speech DK gave against the compromises the Blue Dogs wanted to make.

What gives it away is the vile nature of the posts. As nasty as DU could get, it's not in character for 20-30 posters to all post threads calling DK "fuck-head", or "little asshole", or whatever vile combination of foul words you've seen around here. It's tone deaf, and it smacks of paid sock puppetry.

I know some moderate Democrats, but from who else but Washington insiders would you hear such AGGRESSIVE pro-Blue dog language? Most Dems who lean corporate are somewhat apologetic or pragmatic in their tone. This is very Rovian and thuggish, and it distresses me that Obama wants to divide and conquer the progressive blogosphere---but why wouldn't he? How does the blogosphere serve him? It doesn't--we are the people, and he is a corporatist. We are thorns in his side, and this is our best tool of organization. Why wouldn't they try to muck it up?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

55. This is a little over the top into conspiracy land.

Most of the people who get called shills and corporatists on here have been on DU since at least 2006. Do you really think that Obama bought these people 2 years in advance and held onto them in the event that someday he would be president and maybe he could cause havoc on a democratic message board?

Really?

[rudy23]

59. No, that's a horrible strawman. I think they pay people $9/hour---standard rate for viral blogging

This is standard practice for any political candidate. Companies pay people to blog on their products, to give them good reviews, to rate stuff up on Digg. It's not a conspiracy, it's a real job that people get paid to do. Pretty common knowledge.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

60. You think they pay me 9 dollars an hour to post on DU?

I wish!

[bleever]

63. Calculating my back wages.

This shortfall has been cutting into my kids' allowance.

Damn you, Liberal Internet Overlords who don't comply with the net 30 terms to which we agreed!

[bluetrain]

58. I agree with everything you said, but I'd argue that the operatives showed up during the primaries

[chill_wind]

61. I'd forgotten that particular one. Interesting revisit.

eom

[bluetrain]

56. People prefer to be spoon fed the party line than to exercise critical thought.

[bvar22]

62. Check it out.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeremy-scahill/rahm-emanu...

[rudy23]

67. VERY good catch. A must read!

Why wouldn't these groups want to control the message on a free discussion board where they have the advantage of anonymity? In the old days, they had to try and control reporters to control the message.

[bamacrat]

64. Had they not bowed to their corporate masters and eliminated the insurance companies exemption

to the anti-trust laws in this country we could go a long way towards meaningful reform. You know those laws that broke up the old ATT, MCI, threatened Microsoft. Monopoly laws.

[JackRiddler]

65. Would DC insiders be that juvenile?

Oh, wait a minute...

[bvar22]

68. Historically, there have been periods....

...when allegiance to a Political Party and charismatic leaders has superseded a commitment to Humanistic IDEALS.

Those periods have always ended badly.




"I don’t represent the big oil companies. I don’t represent the big pharmaceutical companies.
I don’t represent the Enrons of this world. But you know what?
They already have great representation in Washington.
It’s the rest of the people that need it.”
---Paul Wellstone’s Last Commercial

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

75. I wonder the same thing, but with a different twist.

I see way too many people who want to kill this bill at all costs because it is not good enough. People on this board are usually pretty smart. I can't see so many who want to kill it entirely knowing that a second chance will proabbly not come around again for years and in the interim many will die.

I think the insiders want the bill to die more than I thnk the insiders want the bill to survive. I think the insiders were forced to have this dog and pny show and they would all be relieved if nothing passed and everyone could collect their marbles, go home and say, "oh, well, we tried" and just return to the same old gravy train politics that has served them so well lo these many years.

[happy2bhere]

78. I agree

And since I think the insiders are all Republicans or Republican plants(see DLC) they are hoping it will fail so they will be able to blame the failure for the reason they win(steal) the next elections.

[Bobbie Jo]

92. ^^^^ +1000 ^^^^

[Echo In Light]

77. Twas ever thus

[tekisui]

79. I don't think it's been invaded by Washington insiders.

I think it has become more conservative. Liberals are attacked regularly here, now. There is a significant number of posters who will shit on every liberal position to defend the Democratic leadership.

DU has taken a big step right since this time last year.

[Echo In Light]

84. I can't single out another poster, but saw a post awhile ago that even surprised me

... re exactly 'who' our elected Reps actually represent, and someone in the thread (I was unfamiliar w/the name, but they had 1000+ posts) claimed the OP had it wrong, and that the Dem party *should not* tolerate progressives

[tekisui]

85. I'm not surprised.

I started using ignore for the first time in my 2.5+ years here. Some of the shit that gets spewed now, would have gotten posters banned a couple of years ago.

[QC]

88. It's gotten where there's more red-baiting here

than at the John Birch Society July 4 Picnic.

Did you ever imagine that you would regularly see people here denounced as Trotskyites?

Yes, this place has lurched hard to the right, and it started with an influx of true believers during the primaries who were allowed to bully and attack with absolute impunity. They are still bulletproof and still bullying and browbeating anyone who gets too close.

[Cleita]

80. More like paid operatives from "K" street insurance lobbyists.

The astroturf talking points are so obvious.

[prolesunited]

81. I've been here longer than you and have way many more posts

and I support the bill -- however imperfect it is -- so that we can get the ball rolling on reform.

How do we know YOU are not the troll paid to sow dissension?

[Romulox]

83. Lotsa *wannabe* insiders--people who'd be happy to kiss an ass if they could only find one... nt

[TZ]

86. I live just outside the Washington Beltway

So I guess I count as an insider. Oh and once again, I think we have a post from someone whose never been sick and has no idea how awful it is right now and how ANYTHING is better. But what does one chronically ill person know about Health Care anyway? By the way, I'm no asskisser but I happen to believe that we aren't going to get everything we want but there ARE numerous helpful things in this bill that are being ignored BY BOTH SIDES!

[C_Lawyer09]

87. Why will you support?

This is milque toast garbage. The current two party system is incapable of good governance. When will those that are there to lead and govern stop being so friggin conciliatory? Now watch, as in the past, (1994) when the Republicans gain majority, they will vote with solidarity and ram all sorts of bs legislation down the former majorities throat. Obama is a centrist and a weak one at that. Yesterday I have DU'ers calling me a troll and un recommending some comments, whatever the hell that is or does I'm not sure. Now, I'm not going to condemn a portion of this bill until I research it myself, but if some of what I've read is true, regarding punishment of employers, felony, 5 yrs or 250k, then that is an absolute no go in my book.

[Generator]

89. No

Just denial. Some here remind me exactly of all those shows I've seen on teevee. To anyone on the outside-it's obvious that the husband/wife/daughter/son is the murderer. But the family continue to believe and defend and hope. I'm always stunned by it. Just watched a dude this morning-his wife talks about maybe blowing his head off in a secret tape-but you know-she's just bi-polar. Not someone that wants him dead and is pretending. Always with an excuse. I have seen every excuse under the sun in my many years here, but it's really simple-they only work for themselves not us. As long as we accept that-nothing will change.

Well I am a long time Duer and from being on this board I now no longer believe that electoral politics is going to be our savior or even change almost anything.

It's back to the streets. But first we have to wait for others to join-and for that to happen things have to be really bad. Not something I look forward to.

But Barrack Obama is not ending war. Barrack Obama is not delivering health care for all Americans. And neither are those in congress. I call a sham a sham. They didn't EVEN TRY very hard. They cave before they begin. They don't have any courage of their convictions. And why should they? All that matters it getting re-elected. Screw and ignore those that will die from not being able to afford health care. For profit health care is immoral. We are the only western nation that allows it. We are an immoral nation. And I don't think these cowards, excuse me-"our Representatives" are changing that anytime soon.

Not when it's that very immortality-making money from corporations that funds their sweet existence.