Why does there seem to be more hatred for Dennis rather than Stupak?

[EndersDame]

I personally love Dennis(in fact he personally convinced me to register to vote and be a Democrat when
I turned 18), I don't wanna get in a fight about that I realize not everyone shares my love for him. But why all the negativity directed towards him rather than the real traitor Stupak who sold out all of my sisters?

Me and my Homie in 2004 when I was 18

[Oregone]

1. Maybe centrists hate progressives more than they like women?

Just a guess

[paulsby]

47. maybe realists

understand that likely the stupak amendment is WHY the bill passed in the first place.

whereas dennis' vote was a nice gesture, but had no effect on anything

[bluetrain]

77. Misogyny is now "realism"? What other bigotry are you proud to support?

[paulsby]

78. ooooh. impressive rhetoric

it's MISOGYNY!!!

so, i guess the democratic party by your "logic" is MISOGYNIST since they (the vast majority) voted for this bill

oh, the horror

all those darn misognynist democrats.

[bluetrain]

81. I think that's obvious and I don't understand why you're advocating hatred on a progressive board.

[ProfessorGAC]

83. Further Hyperbole Is Not A Way To Reinforce A Point

Especially when the original statement is extreme hyperbole.
GAC

[paulsby]

128. it's a way to show the op is rubbish

it's a well known rhetorical technique

[John Q. Citizen]

147. I think it made you look bad. It didn't make the OP look bad at all. That's my opinion.

[JetCityLiberal]

123. really you don't?

read his posts.

[paulsby]

129. cite one

cite one where i "advocate hatred"
show me one post where i advocate hate against ANY group...
(and fwiw, i see tons of posts advocating hate here, it's perfectly ok if the hate is properly directed, apparently)

right here:

it's a nice dismissive way of avoiding the issues.

[paulsby]

127. who are you talking about?

who is advocating hatred?

the democratic party?

the OP?

the michelin man?

[Daemonaquila]

144. Ah. Yes. Selling out 50% of America was worth the stupid bill passing.

Not.

Stupak should be strangled with his own balls.

[JVS]

2. Good question. I'm interested in learning the answer

[Mojambo]

3. It's a fair question. n/t

[waiting for hope]

4. Dennis is the real Democrat -

I don't recognize the likes of Stupak and Ellsworth.

[underseasurveyor]

39. Those that are so willingly to and ignorantly vote against their own interests

Have either forgotten or don't know what a Real Democrat acts like..

Puzzling to me how anyone can be so foolish. The only excuses they might have is if they were born in a cave and lived there their entire lives,... are much too young to know what a Real Democrat really is,.. are repukes trying to pose as Dems and stir shit,... or they're just plain lazy and ignorant and regurgitate any talking point that sound reasonable to their teeny brains that are in turn attached to their big mouths.

I wish Dennis could be President. The US could clean up real nice.

[paulsby]

51. i loathe this meme

the idea that one should vote one's interests, and that many voters wrongly vote against their own interests.

i don't vote my interests. i vote my principals.

for example.

i loathe cigarette smoke with every fiber of my soul. but i would never vote for an ordinance that prohibited private bars, nightclubs etc. from allowing smoking (we have an ordinance like this where i live).

even though it would benefit ME to have such a law, i cannot support it because it goes against my principles.

there are many other examples. that's the most obvious

[underseasurveyor]

61. Loathe all you want to.. Doesn't make it not true

People vote against themselves all the time because they believe what their TV's tell them because they're too damn lazy or apathetic to find out what really being put forth to supposedly improve their lives.

[paulsby]

65. and people ALSO vote against themselves

because they have higher principles. and that's a GOOD thing

that's what's wrong about this dismissal/negativity towards people "voting against their interests"

i proudly, at times, vote my principles over my interests, and democracy is not served as well if people merely vote what benefits THEM.

[underseasurveyor]

122. Perhaps it's worded it poorly

When I say 'their own interests' I'm not saying "literally" individual self interests. No, rather I'm talking about our (their = our) interests as a whole. The Peoples (Their) interests.

I don't vote for just myself either, I vote for what I believe to be the greater good of this country. Perhaps I should reword that and say 'Our Own' interests.

I can see how that could be confusing when 'their own' is taken too literally.

[sabrina 1]

133. I agree, and that is why I admire people like Kucinich.

If he just went along with the rest of the herd and took money from big corps, he probably would be a Senator or even President by now. He isn't fighting for his own interests, he's fine as far as health care goes. He's putting his own political reputation on the line to vote for his principles.

And while you SAY this is the kind of thing you support, your vitriol against Kucinich says otherwise.

What is it, btw, other than the fact he refused to vote for a corporate supporting bill with a 'D' next to the signatures, that you disagree with him about? I've asked this question several times, but still have not received an answer from those most vocal against Kucinich.

1) Do you disagree with him that the US should have a national health care system like all other industrialized nations, rather than a for-profit system controlled by Private Industry?

2) Do you disagree with him that this bill is a huge billions of dollars bail-out to an industry that has actively withheld health care from their customers in order to keep their bottom line, which is a 30% profit margin intact?

3) Do you view health care as a commodity rather than a right?

4) Do you agree, that if it is a commodity, Americans can be forced to buy it? And don't bother with Obama's (and Republicans') excuse regarding auto insurance. No one is forced to own a car.

Other than being upset that someone doesn't march in lock-step like a Republican with the party, what else do you disagree with him about?

And one last question, did you agree with the Democrats when they removed Kucinich's amendment from the bill, but included the anti-abortion amendment? Was there any logical reason for that?

[Kalyke]

161. The higher principle here is that abortion should be covered.

There are many reasons why a woman would need a medical abortion - tubal pregnancies, dead fetuses (causes infection), dying fetuses (the same) - and those provisions simply weren't even considered. I'm not even speaking to elective abortions.

Selling out 51 percent of the population to pass a bill isn't in the best interests of anyone.

[Sebastian Doyle]

5. That's a very good question

And some of the Dennis haters are transferring their hatred of him on to anyone who defends him. Seen a lot of that tonight.

Pretty bad when you can't defend a Democrat for voting like a Democrat on Democratic Underground.

[Jamastiene]

6. Because there are so many here who will not be affected by the Stupak Amendment...

apparently. That is the only explanation I can come up with right now. Poor and female = second class citizen. We don't even count at all.

As far as DK goes: He's not bought and paid for by the insurance companies like so many others in our Congress. Apparently, that scares the knee jerk types who are afraid of REAL change for the better.

[ThomCat]

19. I think that it is becoming very common, even here,

for people to develop thinking along the lines of:

"If the party helps 'them' then they aren't representing me."

A lot of people don't want 'their' party wasting time or effort or resources helping any "special interest group." Like women, or LGBT people, or or people with disabilities, or indigenous peoples, or immigrants.

All of the party's energy and resources have to be saved up for helping normal people like them.

[Mari333]

79. There you go!

lots of people I have noticed on here dont have any idea how poor others are. They think everyone is flush with extra funds and money. living in a bubble, they are, like the Beltway crowd.

[juno jones]

89. Good point.

I was shocked to see (in a thread about food stamps and other poverty programs) people who would comment that they've never known anybody who had to have FS, etc. Another claimed that those programs couldn't be TOO onerous, after all just look at all the people who were on them.

Apparently many here have no idea what it is like to actually use those government programs, the means testing, the waiting times while employers, landlords, and gatekeepers drag their feet on required paperwork, the conditions that are set financially and life-wise on one who is getting them. And that's not to mention bad apple social workers who play from their own meager places of power and act as if every last benefit is theirs to withhold or wield at will. The upper crust here seem to think that one day, someone wakes up and says, "I need some food, let's go get some FS. It's quick, easy and fun."

All I know is that if medicare is funded up to 133% of poverty and $5000 of assets, I will just happen to have an income of 134% of poverty and $5001 by their reckoning. And for all the talk of subsidies the only numbers I have seen are the costs of premiums and a vague assurance that 'we will take care of you'.

Funny how a lot of this boils down to class. The ones who are still insulated are looking at keeping their doctors and being able to repurchase the insurance they were dropped from. A lot of the lower mids and poor are questioning of it will help at all. I mean, the talk of 'help' is all about premiums. For many, even if the premium is paid off, affording the $5000 or so deductable is still impossible.

[varelse]

124. once again, I wish I could recommend a reply

[juno jones]

141. Thanks

. And I love Joe Bageant!

[druidity33]

138. +100. nt.

[juno jones]

142. Thank you. n/t

[cynatnite]

7. I'm disappointed, but I certainly don't hate him. He's a good congressman. n/t

[EndersDame]

36. I usually stay out of GD , I realized later on that any internet message board would be filled with

hate. Don't get me wrong I love Dennis but expect alot of people to disagree with him. I was just suprised at some of the vitriol but then again it is the internet. I think I will go back to the lounge

[cynatnite]

38. The vitriol is way out of hand tonight...people are eating their young just about...

I don't blame you.

[Desertrose]

8. wish I knew...but its nothing new here at DU...

Seems like every so often, all the DK haters come out of the woodwork.




Nice pic btw.

[provis99]

9. because too many are Democrats, rather than progressives.

There's a difference. They'll cheer any Democratic bill, no matter how bad it is, just because its "our side"; never mind whether the bill is an atrocious one or not.

[flvegan]

10. My guess?

Here, there's a bunch of hate for DK because he stands for actual progressive, dem values and makes the paid-for shills that pretend to be dems look like idiots.

Bottom line, he sets the bar too high...or, where it belongs.

[EndersDame]

20. I have always maintained Kucinich isn't radical he is sensible and logical

Single Payer would cost Americans less and provide more service
Iraq and Afghanistan clearly are immoral, and a big waste of money
Money should be spent on Job Creation and Education to alleviate alot of our societal problems


I think the main difference is that Dennis comes from a poor background and has lived in the real world rather than a comfortable upper middle class lifestle.

[flvegan]

23. He's framed as radical by both the right and wanna-be left.

DK looks at every Bill and every vote with a yes/no, what is best for the people? Which, honestly is how it should be. He's not beholden. His conscious is likely very clear.

Unlike our sellouts making up the majority of our party.

[mike_c]

117. wish I could recommend your response....

+1

[saracat]

11. Because many support misogyny? And many feel women are dispensible.

[ZombieHorde]

12. Because DK makes their favorite politician look bad in the realms of ethics and courage. nt

[DemBones DemBones]

74. I think you're correct.

[The Magistrate]

13. No One Here, Ma'am, Is Putting Up Praise Of The Wretch Stupak, or His Reasons For His Actions

People are praising Rep. Kucinich for voting against the Bill, and that is the occasion for people responding with denunciation.

A tremendous volume of hate was poured out against Stupak earlier in the evening, as his amendment came up and was voted on, and hate runs very deep for him here, as well as for those who voted for his amendment.

If someone put up a thread headed "Good for Stupak! He Held The Line Tonight!", it would be in flames before two minutes had passed, and probably have to be locked within a quarter-hour. The person who posted it would likely be expelled....

[EndersDame]

26. I was dealing with puppy issues earlier. I also try to avoid GD

I am glad to hear that. Again I can see people disagreeing with Dennis but the level of hate got to me. Dennis is my homeboy

[The Magistrate]

34. Understood, Ma'am

When any Representative or Senator of our Party votes with the Republicans when the chips are down on major legislation, it angers me, and it does not matter whether they do it from a right or a left perspective. The narrowness of this vote will be of use to the Republicans in future obstructions, and in up-coming political campaigns. That the Bill is far from perfect, and, but bluntly, contains some very bad provisions, does not excuse votes that narrow the margin of its passage. The worst offenders here are the twenty or so wretches in our Party who voted for the Stupak amendment, and then voted against the Bill even so. They are beneath contempt. Rep. Kucinich simply did the wrong thing, and could have cast a 'Yea' vote; it would have cost him nothing.

[saltpoint]

35. Seconded with enthusiasm.

[HughMoran]

96. Very well stated

[CTyankee]

132. Deft and to the point, Magistrate. I will just add that I fear Kucinich was exercising his own

ego with his vote...I don't dislike him and god knows you don't get anywhere in politics without a strong ego...but I think he got irked and felt he needed to make a statement. I also think that he may regret it.

[John Q. Citizen]

148. To argue that "it would have cost him nothing" is unknowable. Perhaps it would have cost you

nothing. But you don't have the responsibility of representing your constituents.

Maybe you don't believe that people should keep their word. That keeping one's word is quaint and is for suckers.

But I'm a firm believer that one's word is all one, ultimately, has.

To vote against what he thought best, to vote against what he felt his constituents wanted, and to violate his promise would have indeed cost him a great deal.

It would have cost him his integrity. It would have cost him his self respect. It would have cost him the trust of those who depend on him.

Just because most elected officials routinely break their promises I suppose you could argue that "everybody should do it" especially if you think they should.

I don't buy that.

There is a reason that many in our country feel that the Democrats don't stand for anything except which way the wind blows. There is a perception that they will break their word, flip their vote, anytime they feel it will cost them nothing.

Rahm says that the only criteria that matters is passing a bill. Kucinich doesn't agree with that.

[The Magistrate]

155. His Integrity And Self-Respect, Sir? Lord, The Vapors Are Upon Me, Where Is My Couch....

A fellow of such delicacy should find other employment, perhaps in seminary school....

[HughMoran]

94. Thanks for stating what should be obvious to anybody following the debate

...that both Congressmen can and will continue to be criticized for their actions - albeit for different reasons.

[redqueen]

160. Thank you.

This has been pointed out repeatedly in the days since you posted this... yet still with the "DLC shills are fighting us that means we are WINNING!" type stuff.

Maybe it will sink in sometime soon.

[emulatorloo]

14. I think this is a strawman argument. And flame bait for that matter. Stupak is an idiot

I think all DU'ers agree.

[DarthDem]

18. +1

Silly bait. Stupak is a dolt. I think Kucinich's act has gotten stale, but I can certainly respect his principles.

[EndersDame]

21. I really dont want it to be flame bait . I see alot of threads trashing DK

and alot of vitriolic attacks on him that are alot harsher than "idiot"

[tmyers09]

25. lol, earlier I called him:

a piece of shit, a disgrace to the state of Michigan, not worth two squirts of piss, and that he needs to be kicked in the balls.

And I like Kucinich a whole lot. I just kinda don't understand why he did what he did. However, me being an 18 year old kid and him being an experienced Congressman who is unafraid to stand up for what he believes in, I trust his judgment. At first glance I am happy we got at least something. Hopefully, this can be further improved upon before Obama signs it.

[emulatorloo]

27. I'm disappointed in DK's vote, but I feel no "hatred" for him. There may be a handful who are angry

tonight, but it is a tiny handful compared to those who think Stupak is an idiot.

[EndersDame]

29. I can see that , I just think the haters are a pretty loud bunch

[emulatorloo]

30. LOL there are lots of loudmouths on DU.

[madrchsod]

15. i was called a parasite cause i believe in what he stands for... oh well...

[Libertas1776]

16. K&R

[ProleNoMore]

17. DLC Dems Truly Despise Real Democrats!

eom

[Individualist]

91. +1

That's evidenced by the way DLC vermin swarm to every DK thread with their hate.

[ecstatic]

22. He looks drunk in that photo

A drunk elf.

[EndersDame]

24. I assure you he was not. My mom took me to the event because I was apathetic about voting

I actually had a one on one talk with him and registered and became a Democrat.

[emulatorloo]

28. you have a cool mom! n/t

[johnnie]

33. A drunk elf.?

You believe in elves? Just trying to figure out how you know what and elf looks like. Do you make it a practice to make fun of the way people look?

[EndersDame]

37. "well at least Im not ugly"- what my lil sis used to say to me when we re little

and she ran out of ideas

[B Calm]

75. You are beautiful! I love your olive skin. . .

[grantcart]

31. Because political movements and great policies are won with discipline

After the debate is over then you pull together and vote together unless a particular point is so overwhelmingly against your conscience that you cannot abide it.


Political Parties are not for self promotion or ideological preening.


I hate guns. I would like to see them all dumped in the ocean. I would absolutlely oppose any more gun control measures because it isn't good for the party and my personal point of view is not as important as getting a President elected that reduces the chance for war and wants to get rid of nuclear weapons.


Dennis votes with Republicans on the big issues.


The fact that he has high principled reasons is irrelevent. Tomorrow the big headline on Fox will be that this bill barely passed.


Thanks Dennis you helped advance Republican talking points on the most important Democratic legislation in 30 years.

[saltpoint]

32. * * *

[Go2Peace]

49. come on? Discipline? Discipline? OMFG!!!

If our party were "disciplined" and created good "policy" we would have single payer. We have the majorities. How can you say they are disciplined and this is "good policy"?

What we got was because we could not get half our party to be disciplined and create good policy.

[saltpoint]

56. Thou speaks of nothing, cousin. Given the choice of a perfect piece of

legislation over the one that emerged from the 111th Congress, I would in fact prefer the peerfect piece of legislation.

Turns out I don't have nearly as many lobbyists as United Health, Aetna, Cigna, and so on down the list.

In the real world, not Kucinich's world, the fight is more layered and complex. From DK tonight we got in essence one more Puke vote against historic legislation.

[Go2Peace]

42. And you really thing this legislation represents great policy and a disciplined party??????

Say what you will, maybe this was all we could get. But think about it really. It is a HUGE compromise compared to what a majority in a democracy should be able to get accomplished. We seem to have really lowered our expecatations quite a bit.

[grantcart]

52. You mean do I agree

with the late Senator Ted Kennedy

Governor Dean


Socialist Bernie Sanders


and so on -


yes I do


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


we haven't lowered our expectations we are just tolerant of self agrandized self appointed messiah figures that always need to put themselves in the middle of the spotlight.


when we resisted Vietnam assholes who couldn't get "Clean with Gene" or fall in with an agreed upon strategy were ignored.


Tomorrow Fox News will broadcast that President Obama and the Democrats could barely scrap together votes for their most important legislation. DK will help them make that point. Time for a little proleteriate discipline. DK votes with Republicans and should be treated like one. He can make speeches whenever he wants but when it times to vote you pull together and follow caucus discipline or your just handing power back to the Republicans.

[CTyankee]

134. As an old leftie that opposed the Vietnam War, I appreciated your comment.

The thing is, I hate to be right on issues so often. Really, I do. I have gotten to the point where I sometimes wish I WERE wrong because it happens so often. And I am not patting myself on the back. Far from it. I want to be proven wrong that we haven't taken this health care thing right over a cliff...

[Fading Captain]

40. Becaust Dittocrats care more about winning at politics

Then sticking to traditional democratic policies.

[Go2Peace]

50. ++++++

[Starry Messenger]

88. Love that word and will be adopting it. n/t

[earth mom]

41. There are a shitload of DINOS here on DU. nt

[saltpoint]

43. List them.

[earth mom]

44. FYI-Calling out names is against DU rules. But nice try-NOT! nt

[saltpoint]

45. It's just that we're so tantalized by your secret list.

[earth mom]

46. Let me just say I find GD-P highly suspect. nt

[saltpoint]

48. It's the walrus mustaches, isn't it?

I knew it.

[The Magistrate]

54. By 'DINO', Sir, the Lady Means People Who Support The Leaders Of The Democratic Party

Everyone knows people who do that are 'Democrats in name only": real Democrats are those who disparage and attack a Democratic President and Speaker of the House, etc.

[saltpoint]

57. Top of the evening to you, good sir.

I am finding more to like in Kucinich's ideal world than in his ability to bring it to fruition through negotiation and compromise with his Congressional colleagues, and feel that the real world is real enough that this bill, flawed though it be, was worth fighting for.

It seems to me that 220 members of the 111th Congress did stand to fight. I was dismayed that Congressman Kucinich did not choose to fight for the bill but chose instead to grandstand and pout and throw a temper-tantrum.

I have been following your remarks in several threads tonight with high attention and admiration.

[The Magistrate]

60. Thank You, Sir. a Pleasure To Make Your Acquaintance

Radicalism has to be tempered with strategic pragmatism. Strategy is best defined as apportioning the means at hand to attainment of the object in view. The essential quality needed is clear assessment of what can actually be got with the means at hand. Depending on what you actually have available, that can fall far short of what is most desired, and there is no help for it.

This Bill has to be regarded as merely the first breach in a stout wall....

[saltpoint]

63. Nicely rendered.

I am hopeful. Already the debate has put the insurance companies on the defensive. They have spent considerable cash trying to defeat health care reform. They exact response and result but this time we've made them get their good trousers muddy.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

58. Which used to be against the rules.

Honestly. Tonight someone criticized Obama for the results of a 30 year study that showed about half of the children in the U.S. were on foodstamps. They criticized him for Republican attacks on Obama's Net Neutrality policy (as if Obama were attacking Net Neutrality). I just have no words and no patience anymore.

[The Magistrate]

62. We Did Used To Ride It Tighter, Ma'am....

The flood-gates were opened during the last primary season. It is easier to maintain order than to re-impose it....

[Go2Peace]

68. Magistrate, how long have you been here? I remember it *always* being this way

In fact I see the opposite. It seems to me there is an attempt to start shutting down discussion here.

[The Magistrate]

70. Since Late 2001, Sir

And about half of that as a moderator.

In the earliest days yes, things were, shall we say, pretty free-form, and there was a continuous scrap between Democrats and Greens/Naderites. That sorted out in the '02 and '04 elections, putting splinterists decidely on the defensive. Enforcement was always looser when there was no election on, and tightened up as one neared.

The '08 primaries were declared a sort of free-fire zone, however, and in consequence there arose great bitterness, which has not yet completely worked out, and has altered the social compact of the place considerably.

The claim of 'attempts to shut down discussion here' is, in my view, merely a rhetorical device some people employ to posture as victims when they encounter people who strenuously disagree with their views. But disagreement is something others have a right to, and on a public forum, one cannot expect everyone will agree with the views one expresses.

[HughMoran]

103. Mind if I re-use that last paragraph?

The claim of 'attempts to shut down discussion here' is, in my view, merely a rhetorical device some people employ to posture as victims when they encounter people who strenuously disagree with their views. But disagreement is something others have a right to, and on a public forum, one cannot expect everyone will agree with the views one expresses.

I've never seen this behavior described any better!

[Number23]

140. Not only perfectly described but the God's honest truth as well.

[Toasterlad]

152. But disagreement is something others have a right to

Unless you disagree with Obama. Then the cheerleaders will be right on your ass, telling you to get lost.

I don't know what DU you're on, but here at the real DU, the people opposing some of Obama's policies are much more reasonable and tolerant than the locksteppers, who are indistinguishable from the 26% percent of cretins who supported Bush right to the end.

[The Magistrate]

156. Your Comment, Sir, Illustrates The Point Well

You describe those who disagree with you as 'cheer-leaders' and 'lock-steppers', and announce they are "indistinguishable from the 26% percent of cretins who supported Bush right to the end." You do this immediately after stating people who oppose President Obama's policies here are "much more reasonable and tolerant".

Doubtless, were people who support President Obama here consulted, many would express a view of their opponents' behavior and character wholly opposite to yours....

[Toasterlad]

165. The Difference Is, I Give Credit Where Credit Is Due, And They Won't Assign Blame.

I praised Obama for the reversal on stem cell research. I cheered his Middle East speech. When he does things I like, I acknowledge them. And when he does things I don't like, I criticize him.

To the cheerleaders and lockstepers, there can be NO criticism of Obama. Everything he does is correct. Any disagreement is high treason.

Pretending there aren't unreasonable, unthinking people among Obama's supporters won't make them any less noticeable.

[The Magistrate]

167. Nor, Sir, Does Pretending Some Of His Critics Do Not Answer To the Same Description

[Toasterlad]

168. I Didn't Make That Claim. I Merely Suggested That There Are Far More Unreasonable Cheerleaders

on DU than unthinking Obama bashers.

[The Magistrate]

170. And That Perception, Sir, Does Not Strike Me As Accurate

There is certainly a sizable cadre who routinely 'bash' President Obama, and taking that group and his defenders separately, it seems to me the proportion of the former who show unreasonable zeal exceeds the proportion of such in the latter.

It needs to be remembered, too, that the forum is structured to the support of Democrats and the Democratic Party by its proprietors, hence, those who prefer to attack leading Democrats and the Party are always going to operate at a certain disadvantage.

[Toasterlad]

171. That's Certainly a Matter of Perception.

If you're an Obama fan, you are naturally going to notice many more posts attacking him than praising him. And if you are angry with Obama, you are probably going to see many more posts defending him.

What I'VE noticed is that there are many, MANY people who acknowledge that they are not happy with Obama on specific issues, and yet overall either approve of the job he's doing, or have faith that he will improve. And yet, even these reasonable people are attacked by the cheerleaders whenever they questions ANY move Obama makes.

The site is indeed structured to support Democrats. That's why people feel free to point out when their leaders aren't acting like Democrats. And the people who are out to silence such speech are not acting like Democrats either.

It is the job of the citizenry in a democracy to criticize their government. Especially if their government promised to do certain things, and failed to follow through once in power.

[The Magistrate]

176. Your Second Paragraph, Sir, Describes Me To A Tee

And probably the greatest proportion of the membership here as well.

[Ignis]

174. "altered the social compact of the place considerably"

And the 2009 Understatement Award goes to The Magistrate!

[Number23]

139. Don't forget those who also attacked him

Because NY state had the nerve to decide who it was going to give the swine flu vaccine too. Apparently, Obama should have donned a nurse's uniform and distributed the vaccine himself on his lunch hour.

The stupidity here has blanketed this place like a poisonous cloud.

[Go2Peace]

67. And you see that in my posts where? I have been fairly general in terminology

Seriously though, this entire site has been CONSTANTLY talking about the "dino's" "blue dogs", etc etc. Why is it so suddenly that we must all sing kumbaya and accept every representative as desirable?

I mean how come I, or anyone else here, should not work for one party member over another? Or express dissatisfaction over a representative we don't feel is representing party values? I mean, the leadership itself does that all the time, they choose who should be in or out, who reflects values, who should be supported with money. I am not saying that is wrong. But I just don't get this whole, "be happy or your a troll" thing that seems to be going on. This is the way a party works.

What is the difference between DU and, say, being at a bar with a bunch of democrats and arguing and discussing politics?

I think people here seem to forget what this place is. It is a discussion board?

[The Magistrate]

71. Your Comments Were Not Addressed, Sir: Those Of Ms. EarthMom, Commencing At No. 41, Were

[Go2Peace]

80. Yep, I confused threads. Sorry about that.

[scheming daemons]

55. A DINO, by definition, is one who claims to be a Democrat but votes with Republicans

... like Dennis Kucinich.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HughMoran]

100. lol

cute.

[Daemonaquila]

146. Wrong name, bucko!

Like STUPAK, who supported the far right anti-abortion line like the spineless, stinking worm he is. Real Dems stand up to that - Dems like DK.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

172. Neither Kucinich nor Stupak can be considered DINOs.

Check both their voting records if you don't believe me.

[Hippo_Tron]

53. Stupak is not controversial on DU, Dennis is

Almost everyone here is in agreement that Stupak is an ass. Dennis on the other hand has his admirers and his critics. Topics that are likely to cause controversy are generally more popular.

[ashling]

59. The operative word is "seems"

There has bee quite a bit of hate for Stupidak ... I personally started a thread (which died pretty fast, but then 99% of mine do)

I personally can't fathom some of the other votes: Marcy Kaptor? and I was beginning to like her so much.

[G_j]

64. I trust him

He is a fine man, a man of integrity. I truly believe this.

If others don't, I guess it's just our loss,

[EndersDame]

126. He is a man of integrity and is very genuine

As I mentioned before I was an apathetic 18 yo in 2004 and he had a discussion with me about voting and getting involved in the process . I think he is different because he grew up poor and has actually lived in "the real world" Dennis Kucinich is my Homeboy

[Vidar]

66. Our corrupt party leaders, embodied by the DLC, hate real liberals. Great picture,

though you're far more attractive than our hero.

[Echo In Light]

84. DK sparks strong contempt among those who pathologically HATE the "loony" Left

"Loony" Left being anyone who doesn't walk in lockstep w/the aims and interests of the ONE big $, corporate party that does the bidding for corporate America.

[EndersDame]

99. Thank you!

[cornermouse]

72. They got rid of Edwards,

temporarily got rid of Hillary till Obama chose her for S.O.S., Kucinich was apparently next on their list. I wonder who they attack when they're done with Kucinich.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

73. No. Edwards got rid of Edwards.

[saltpoint]

86. No one I know took Edwards' wiener out of his britches. I think he managed

that on his own.

[cornermouse]

92. Different people, different tactics.

The end result will be the same. It's pretty obvious what you're doing on DU.

[saltpoint]

97. I'm defending a bill my party advanced in the 111th Congress.

Kucinich voted against it, IMO in an unprincipled snit.

[cornermouse]

109. Its not about what's good for the party.

Its about what's good for the people. The party is supposed to be the servant of the people, not the people servant to the party.

[saltpoint]

110. I passed that marker on the highway some decards ago, cornermouse.

And reiterate my comments on Kucinich.

[cornermouse]

111. We're going to have to disagree vehemently then, apparently.

[saltpoint]

112. Ok. I'd still buy you a cold beer, though.

Have long appreciated your posts on this site.

[cornermouse]

113. -

[HughMoran]

106. .

whaa? paranoid insanity - yikes! get help.

[cornermouse]

108. Aren't you starting to lose count of all the personal attacks you've launched this morning?

You qualify for the "filled with hate" category.

[Unvanguard]

76. No one is defending Stupak's amendment. But plenty of people are defending Kucinich's vote. n/t

[mmonk]

82. Because some are for passing anything and conservatives

have more sway in the Democratic Party. They want to win the political game.

[CBR]

85. I think they are both annoying for different reasons. In the end,

however, their votes have the same effect.