I don't support any bill that suggests jailing working class americans as health reform.

[Political Heretic]

"but but, if you cant afford insurance you'll get a subsidy!"

The federal definitions of "affordable" are a joke, and the subsidies suggesting in this bill are laughable. They are simply not enough to actually make real health care "affordable" for many working class American families, including my own.

Not to mention the fact that the subsidies that are in this bill are even less that was was originally suggested in committee, and even those weren't enough.

I can not believe that with a Democratic controlled House, a Democratic controlled Senate, a Democratic President, a Majority of Democratic State Governors and a majority of the population currently identify as Democrat or Independent, that we have a bill that targets working class Americans more harshly than the insurance industry.

That's just fucking great.

Not that I'm really surprised, because I'm smarter than that. I'm just disgusted anyway.

[stray cat]

1. If you choose not to purchase insurance - who has to pay for your medical care?

People don't like to spend money for insurance if they can get others to pay for their health care or if they simply don't think they will ever get sick. All of us like having cash for things we want if we can free it up from somewhere else.

However, are you willing to pay for the health care of those who make more than you but simply don't want to waste their money on insurance.

[rug]

8. Department of Corrections.

[vadawg]

30. lol i think it would be the federal bereau of prisons but rofl

[sabrina 1]

47. Why don't you take that rightwing garbage to a more suitable

venue. It is as disgusting to make that claim, that people without insurance, are without it out of selfishness, as it is when I see it all the time, on Free Republic, Red State and elsewhere. I never, ever though I would see this accusation against the poor, the appeal to the lowest levels of human thinking, on a democratic board, yet I'm seeing it over and over in defense of this terrible legislation. if you cannot defend the bill on its own merits, why sink to that level? All it does is show there is not legitimate defense for this country being unable to provide health care for all its citizens.

Have you read the stories of family members of those who have died because of not having adequate health care on Rep. Grayson's site set up for that purpose? Do you really believe that those people would die rather pay to stay alive if they could afford it? Over 44,000 of them each year?

I know many people who have to make the choice between taking care of their own health, or putting a child through college, eg. Guess there will be fewer children going to college after this bill passes or more parents going to jail. Is that what you support?

As far as some of us paying for others, a National Healthcare System such as other countries have, will ensure you won't have to worry your beautiful mind about being billed for someone else's health care. We would all be contributing.

And btw, other people are helping pay for YOUR health care. Do you really think your approx. $8,000 a year premium will cover you or a family member if you, god forbid, should ever need coverage for a serious illness? Since I and my family haven't used medical coverage at all for the past number of years, and others have, should I be screaming about paying for others?

That's how all such programs work, Public and Private, everyone pays. I cannot believe how people on the left have fallen for this Republican talking point. People paying for private insurance are paying to cover other people. Except they are paying more and getting less than if they paid the same amount in a healthcare tax, (which would be far less actually) for a not for profit system spent all that contribution except for minimal overhead costs such as Medicare's (3%) for actual healthcare. Do you know that one third of what you are paying your Private Insurance Co. goes to profits? Do you like supporting their luxurious life-style? I would prefer that my one third went to save someone's life.

How come people do not know all this? Sometimes it makes you just want to leave the country.

[Le Taz Hot]

54. "People DON'T LIKE" to spend money

for insurance . . . " ????? How about after I pay my mortgage (not a large mortgage, mind you), I have exactly $400.00 a month left for EVERYTHING else. I don't LIKE to spend money on insurance? I have one question for you: ARE YOU LOST???

[Oregone]

Dude, you are seriously killing my group-think meditation man

Have a doob and turn down the volumne a bit. Hope will lead you out of this.

[babylonsister]

2. Jail? Got a link? I've read that, but not from any credible source. Thanks. nt

[Political Heretic]

4. ..from the office of my Rep, Rep. Pete DeFozio

If that's wrong then they're wrong.

[Political Heretic]

5. Here's the first link:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/281758

Ranking Member of the House Ways and Means Committee Dave Camp raised concerns on the health care bill's ability to impose civil and criminal penalties on Americans who do not comply with the mandate on taking up insurance coverage.

If you willfully do not comply with the health insurance mandates set forth in the House health care bill, you could face steep fines and imprisonment sentences of as much as 5 years. The civil and criminal penalties in the House bill have caught the attention of Ranking Member of the House Ways and Means Committee Dave Camp.
In a letter released from the Joint Committee on Taxation, two scenarios were determined that could lead to imprisonment: "Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:

• Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.
• Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.”

[regnaD kciN]

10. Let's be specific...that's not for failure to obtain insurance...

...but for refusal to pay the "excise tax" (fine) for not obtaining coverage. In other words, it becomes tax evasion. It's a little like saying that "the government can execute you for speeding!" when in fact it can do so if, after getting caught speeding, you pull a gun and kill the policeman trying to ticket you.

Now, I'm not in favor of mandates, either, but they've been so watered-down already that, by the time of the final bill, they will basically only apply to those who are very well-off and refuse to obtain coverage, anyway. And the fines would be small enough that they would only be a drop-in-the-bucket to such people.

[marketcrazy1]

11. your analogy sucks!

it`s a fine for NOT buying insurance if the GOV says you can afford it, the fine is collected by the IRS and if you forget to pay it you could face criminal penalties but if you adamantly refuse to pay the fine you face jail!. it`s in the bill and it sucks! but i doubt it will survive as it seems extremely unconstitutional and I am sure it would be challenged if they tried to enforce it.

[regnaD kciN]

18. "forget to pay it"...???

Give me a break. If you forget to pay your taxes, the same thing can happen. So, let's shut down the federal government!

[Political Heretic]

12. That's some amazing hair splitting right there.

I tip my hat to you.

[Political Heretic]

14. To add (since it came up in another thread):

That means I'm going to jail - essentially, for being too poor to live in the US.

Which brings the argument full circle. This is where you say, "but there will be subsidies for people who can't afford to pay for insurance."

If I'm too poor to afford insurance I'm too poor to pay a tax penalty

The federal definitions of "affordable" are a joke, and the subsidies suggesting in this bill are laughable. They are simply not enough to actually make real health care "affordable" for many working class American families, including my own.

Not to mention the fact that the subsidies that are in this bill are even less that was was originally suggested in committee, and even those weren't enough.

I don't know how you fail to see the direct connection. It is overwhelmingly poor people who are going to be hassled by the IRS and/or face prison.

The only way that a "mandate" works, is when you have Medicare for Everyone. Without that single payer, you end up with terrible shit like this where people end up going to jail.

It will be the new story instead of the preexisting condition stories we hear now. "I couldn't afford my fee and so I was sent to jail." That's just great.


I can not believe that with a Democratic controlled House, a Democratic controlled Senate, a Democratic President, a Majority of Democratic State Governors and a majority of the population currently identify as Democrat or Independent, that we have a bill that targets working class Americans more harshly than the insurance industry.

[regnaD kciN]

25. Have you actually read any of the bills...?

I'm going to direct you to the Baucus bill, which was considered the most "pro-corporate" of them all.

First, the penalty was cut to $750/adult from the previous $950/person. So, for a family, the most the fines could be would be $1,500, as opposed to the previous proposal of $3,800.

BUT...

You would be exempt from any "excise tax" (fine) if the premiums for a qualifying plan would come to more than 8% of your adjusted gross income.

So, say, you're a family of four earning an AGI of $60,000. (You'd be eligible for subsidies, of course, but I'll set that aside for the moment.) That would mean the most you'd be mandated to buy insurance for would be $4,800/year, or $400/month. My question: do you know any family plans that go for $400/month? (If you do, please let me know!) In reality, most private insurance family plans cost well over $1,000/month. So, you'd be exempt from any fine.

Say, your income was $80,000 instead of $60,000. The most you'd have to pay would be $6,400/year, or $533/month. Under current conditions, still exempt.

Maybe your family income is $100,000. The most you'd have to pay would be $8,000/year, or $667/year. Once again, exempt!

In fact, with insurance premiums for a family at $1,000/month (and most are higher), do you know how much your adjusted gross income would have to be to be subject to mandates and penalties? Try $150,000. And, if you gross $12,500 per month, and don't want to buy insurance coverage (which is kind of ludicrous, since you'd probably be covered through your employer/employers anyway at that income level), well...I think you should have little problem coming up with the $120/month for the excise tax. I mean, we'd be talking about less than 1% of your AGI.

As I said before, I'm opposed to mandates in principle. But the devil is in the details -- mandates can be made pretty painless, or quite painful. As the current bills are designed, they fall under the "pretty painless" category.

[Political Heretic]

26. That's very interesting - thank you for posting. I hope you'll read some of my other posts.

...where I try to more quantifiably express what I see as the problem.

But still, those examples are interesting and helpful.

Yes, I've read two of the bills - but that doesn't always mean I can understand everything in them.

[rgbecker]

50. I'm interested in how many are in jail because they have refused to pay the medicare tax.

Certainly those numbers are available somewhere. I'd be very surprised if there are many, but I suppose there are always those who refuse to pay their share. I not sure how the proposed taxes or penalties would be much different from the medicare tax.

[dflprincess]

29. How have the mandates been watered down?

A single person, making $43,000/year is not eligible for any subsidies and could be liable for a premium of up to 11% of their income (just under $400/month) - plus out of pocket expenses of up to $5,000.

I really don't see where $43K makes a person "very well off".

[grasswire]

13. do you have a link to defazio statement?

I trust him to tell the whole truth.

[Garbo 2004]

15. Dave Camp is a Repub, don't accept his take on it. Go to source language and the context to

determine what is the actual deal. It's not like Repubs haven't been known for distortion of facts.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vadawg]

31. sad thing is i agree with you and i can bet its gonna be my ass that gets sent out to serve papers

for this kinda crap, this is not going to go down well when people start to see fines (taxes) being handed out..

[bikingaz]

52. and we thought that our prisons are already too full

I hear we jail more people than the rest of the world.
Man, at my age and health condition, I am not looking forward to being an inmate's bitch.
(by the way, that was sarcasm)

[and-justice-for-all]

3. Uh, I am not buying shit I can not afford and that goes for fines too..nt

[Political Heretic]

6. Me neither. Give me a holler from Cell Block C when you get there!

[Mari333]

7. oh hell no. they wont get a cent from me

they can kiss my royal american ass.

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. Good luck with that. n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

24. Do you pay taxes or own property?

[tranche]

27. Who will pay for your healthcare when you get sick?

[amandabeech]

40. I've been temping for 3 years because I haven't been able to find a regular job.

My resume is Swiss cheese because I took time off to help with elderly family members, took a very long time to recover from being a crime victim, and am 54 years old. My good work record earlier in my career and my excellent educational credentials count for zilch now.

As a temp, if you don't work, you don't get paid.

Is there a subsidy for those of us who might run into this situation like there now is for people who lose their jobs and get help with their COBRA payments?

I've looked at the bill, but my eyes just glaze over.

[Le Taz Hot]

55. Holy goddess, you sound like me!

Right down to the temp work, elderly family members, work record, education and age. Woah! :shiver:

[amandabeech]

57. Well, at least we each know that we're not alone!

Thanks for responding. May we each have a better 2010 than 2009.

[maryf]

9. "targets working class Americans more harshly than the insurance industry."

Probably because it was written by the insurance industry!! Profits before people here... >

[MSchreader]

16. Welcome to Mouseland

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqpFm7zAK90

Oh, the implications of this are stunning. Think, for example, of how many more convicted felons will be created by this provision, if it makes it all the way through, and how many of them will thus lose their right to vote because of their being felons. What a wonderful way to further disenfranchise working people.

[juno jones]

17. I've been hearing subsidy as long ago as the primarys.

But have had no solid numbers presented as to just how it will work and how much I'll be out because you just know I'll be at 134% of poverty and entitled to pretty much dick as far as public pool. That puts me at the mercy of insurance. Where do they think people will come up with 6-12,000 dollars? I don't have it, and I know damn well the restrictions and means testing that have been put on medicaid and state low-income insurance in the past.

IMHO: It's BOHICA for the working class, people minumum wage on up to about $12 an hour. And I know a lot of you hanging on to your white-collar jobs aren't making much more than that either.

30% of that is going to the lifestyles of the rich and famous. As opposed to 3% for public programs.

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. If you can afford coverage, but refuse to get it, you'll be required to pay a 2.5% tax.

If you refuse to pay the tax, you'll go to jail.

All is right with the world.

[nannah]

33. do the monies paid, 2.5% tax, buy health care? n/t

[Motown_Johnny]

22. Single Payer would have dealt with this in advance.. but Noooooo!!!!

They need a way to guarantee that people won't wait until they are seriously ill before buying health insurance. Once you remove the pre-existing conditions clause for excluding people there is little incentive for people to carry anything more than major medical (in case of an accident).

I don't like it either but we need to get something passed so we can amend it later through reconciliation. Just getting the damn thing on the books in the first place is the greatest hurdle.

[Generic Other]

36. And what is the average medicare payment?

My mom pays $40. per month for coverage. Lots of Americans especially those with no jobs or insurance will jump at a chance for this kind of coverage.

[mullard12ax7]

23. I believe it, we're talking about people who won't hold war criminals accountable

Did anyone actually think the very same people would give a flying fk about health care? Yes they did, propaganda works really well.

[Norwood]

28. This is exactly what I'm worried about, perhaps one of you people can clear it up...

Was there a public option in this bill? If we're gonna be REQUIRED to buy health insurance with no public option this is an absolutely terrible bill! What are those of us who just cant afford to buy health insurance supposed to do??? Go to jail?? Get fined and fined again for not being able to pay the fine?

If thats what this bill means then I along with many others are fucked....

[Generic Other]

35. It provides for those who can't afford it

and does not include those who have it already as many do through their employment. They are not penalizing people for not being able to afford it, they are going after those who would selfishly resist paying for it, then insist on using it when they needed costly treatment. You don't get to opt in and out of social security and medicare either. You have payroll deductions to cover it. They are a worthwhile investment in your future.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

32. K&R

[Generic Other]

34. A foot in the door

It should be followed by a shoulder, and finally the whole body. And beyond a thousand more....

[geek_sabre]

37. This is why

If only'd we'd had these discussions before this crappy bill was rammed through.

Maybe you all have faith in our politicians that they will sanitize this and make it a nice shiny public option through reconciliation or magic or whatever. But I don't anymore.

WHO'S WRITING THESE BILLS???

[sixmile]

38. Insurance companies and their shareholders, lobbysists, etc.

When has an insurance company ever cured the ill?

[TexasObserver]

39. Requiring poor people to buy health insurance isn't reform. It's repression.

[anonymous171]

42. Someone finally says it. nt

[TexasObserver]

44. Texas doesn't have earthquakes. That's LBJ spinning in his grave.

I blame the president for failing to lead on this issue. He let the industry run the debate.

[DemBones DemBones]

46. Amen to all that you said. This is a boondoggle,

as LBJ probably would say if he were alive. For all his mistakes about the war, LBJ did give us Medicare, Medicaid, the Civil Rights Act, and the Voting Rights Act. All that from a white Southerner, one of DU's most hated groups of people.

[NotGivingUp]

41. what does that tell you about the democrats? do you need to be f'd over one more time? eom

[treestar]

43. Knee jerk reacting without learning what you are talking about first

Your opinion is only valuable if you learn at least a preliminary amount about what you are talking about first.

[varelse]

45. This bill is nearly 2000 pages long

I'm still reading, but I haven't come across the jail term provision yet. What subsection is it in?

[MajorChode]

49. It's right there between suicide and syphilis

seriesly.

[Aramchek]

48. thank you for letting us in on Glenn Beck's point of view

[closeupready]

51. A-freaking-men.

From beginning to end.

[Xenotime]

53. It's quite simple really...

If you have the ability to pay and don't...go to jail. It's time we stand up against the people who weigh down the system by not having insurance when they can pay for it.

[Javaman]

56. playing into the repukes hands...

first of all, no one is going to be jailed for not having health care. This plays right into the repukes hands.

And if by some bizarro twist of fate and stupidity, someone does get jailed by some over zealous moron, that also plays into the repukes hands.

if they don't get jailed, then the repukes will say, "see, this government socialistic system doesn't work. How does this bill give everyone health care, when they can't afford it?"

if they do get jailed, the repukes will scream from hill to hill how the US has been made into a Dickian novel come true. "you can't pay for the Democrat (sic) parties health care, so screw you, off to jail you go!"

This is why we need a strong public option. What is in this bill is so watered down, it amounts to nothing.