The far right uses tactic that work to get people to vote "no" against gay marriage

[Maraya1969]

Maybe it's time to look at a different approach to get people to vote "yes".

I don't know what it is. I think maybe studying Canada and other countries that obtained full rights for gay citizens and see how they did it. Obviously our tactics aren't working.

Watching "Milk" the other night opened my eyes. It was one celebrity, Anita Bryant, who started the whole anti-gay thing by trying to stop gays from being teachers. I know in Florida gays cannot even adopt children! (I think that is a worse travesty personally, considering the number of children who grow up in foster care and have NO FAMILY when they are turned out on the streets. It made me heart sick to see some of these older kids to have no one to call mom or dad or grandma or aunt or uncle; heat sick! Yet the far right X-tians keep getting away with these mean laws that have no compassion, no humanity in them whatsoever.

Maybe it's time for a list of everything they have done that has hurt gay people and gay children. All the suicides, all the pain. It probably won't affect them but maybe it will pull on the heartstrings of the ones who blindly follow the with no thought to the ramifications of their actions.

I don't know the answer. But I think it is time to go back to the drawing board and think tanks. Demonstrations don't seem to work.

Let's all put our thinking caps on and maybe come up with some new ideas to beat this goliath with a sling shot. There has to be a way.

[VMI Dem]

1. I'd like to know how to get more than a token number of our own party on board.

Before I even think about how to sway the bigots on the other side.

[Maraya1969]

9. Remember what Havey Milk said, "Come out" Let people know you are

just like other people." I suppose this is to the gay people here. I am bi-sexual. I suppose I should be more open about that.

[Maraya1969]

12. Oh it can be done. Especially if the petition is worded correctly.

[harry_pothead]

2. I asked the same question too.

TBH right now I'm at a loss. Maybe we could start putting some initiatives up of our own, like in WA tonight.

The ramifications part I think is a good start.

[Sebastian Doyle]

4. The irony of the WA initiative, is that the haters are the ones who put it on the ballot.

The expanded domestic partnership law was a done deal by the Legislature and signed by the Governor. The religious nutballs put out a petition to get it on the ballot just so they could vote against it. Which is the exact opposite of the usual motivation for getting signatures on the ballot.

[HeresyLives]

3. I don't know if this is any help or not,

but the thing stressed in Canada was 'equality'. You cannot give a right to one citizen, and deny it to another.

And we never voted on it, on the grounds that basic rights are not a votable matter. You have them, period.

Our Charter gives us those rights, no exceptions, and so does your Constitution and Bill of Rights.

[Maraya1969]

10. So maybe a petition to get a law passed about equality. The equality

of people and their right to marriage. Just like roe v wade was about privacy.

It is going to be up to us to gather the signatures to get the next law on the books. Maybe the act of getting signatures helps the cause.

[eShirl]

14. One of the arguments used by opponents of the ERA (Equal Rights Amendment) in the 70s was that

the wording of it could be interpreted to give equal rights to gays & lesbians, not just to women.

http://www.equalrightsamendment.org

" The Equal Rights Amendment, first proposed in 1923, is still not part of the U.S. Constitution.

The ERA has been ratified by 35 of the necessary 38 states. When three more states vote yes, the ERA might become the 28th Amendment. "

[Maraya1969]

28. So are you saying that if 3 more states ratify this amendment then marriage

for 2 people cannot be discriminatory because of sex?

[tsuki]

19. I agree. Rights, not tribal rites. Let the Fundies keep their word and

define it any way they want.

[Blue_Tires]

27. that has always been my frame when discussing it with others

especially the freedom-loving quasi-civil libertarian talk radio constitution scholars...I just ask why a bunch of americans shouldn't get the rights the rest of us have...

[dmr]

5. Marriage for all or none at all!

I just wrote this in another thread:

All legal-aged, single people should be free to marry.

It shouldn't be a straight or a gay issue - it should be made a marriage issue.

Too bad the referendums can't be 'do you believe all legal-age, single people be free to marry?'

[vadawg]

6. i agree with you, it should be a legal contract, and call it contractual unions

and these are the only recognised unions by the government, then let the churches perform blessings, marriages or whatever ceremonies they want to.

[theHandpuppet]

20. You know that doesn't work

You think it's just a matter of a word. It's not.

Here's Virginia's law as a prime example:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36314-20...
Marriage Affirmation Act.

The act -- really an amendment to an earlier law -- was passed in April, over Gov. Mark R. Warner's objections, and it takes effect July 1. It says, "A civil union, partnership contract or other arrangement between persons of the same sex purporting to bestow the privileges and obligations of marriage is prohibited." It goes on to add that any such union, contract or arrangement entered into in any other state, "and any contractual rights created thereby," are "void and unenforceable in Virginia."

Edited to add: But then I'm sure you're already familiar with the laws in Virginia.

[JI7]

7. you can't count on people to support minority rights, if civil rights was put up

to vote by the people we might still not have it pass. just a few years ago some state voted against getting rid of some old racist law in the state constitution.

we just have to hope for the courts to do it and elected officials.

[dkf]

8. Has any country voted yes on gay marriage?

Maybe its only legal when the population doesn't get to choose?

[Maraya1969]

11. Has any state brought up the initiative using the petition process to get is on the ballot?

The right to equality for all people. There must be a way to word it so that gay marriage is implicit in its design and the demise of straight marriage is implicit if it is not passed.

Hey I think that might be as good idea. Enough signatures can be gotten easily enough. And the bill could be about the equality of people to marry. Marriage is a right afforded us by our constitution when it says "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all" (ok I might not quote that right but it is the gist of it)

I remember when we got the pig gestation crates illegal. They didn't make the petitions say "gestation crates are illegal" They made it a law that the crate had to be a couple of feet wider than they were. Somehow doing this caused the farmers to get rid of the gestation crates because making them larger would cost more than allowing the to roam free!

People voted on how large a gestation crate could be and the result was the pigs got freedom!

[vadawg]

13. good question, would be interested in the countries, though i think spain is at least one..

[TheKentuckian]

15. Long term paking of the courts is where its at

not just the Supremes but all the way down.

I also think ballot initiatives are open to confusion. It may well be a measurable amount that feels one way and votes the other because the shit is designed to confuse all but the supporters but the real game on rights is in the courts and unfortunately the Reich has been loading up for a generation.

The feint of heart and impatient had best eat their spinach because we need sustained control to get anywhere near back to balance. The system is a motherfucker and a half and there is a lack of toughness in our pols and almost nil sticktoitiveness in our voters.

[Toasterlad]

16. Working to Outlaw Religion Would Be a Great Start.

[Tsar_Bomba]

23. That won't work now, but effort should be place to

end the money stream. The con-artists that call themselves the clergy have a weakness and that is without money they don't eat or build churches or kill doctors or deny others rights.

[FLAprogressive]

17. boycotts. Boycott Maine companies. Boycott Utah companies.

[eShirl]

18. wtf

that's not going to help

[donco6]

21. Bringing up suicides and pain only confirms the Xtian view.

Being gay just causes trouble. It's all our own fault anyway. We're only getting what we deserve.

[Tsar_Bomba]

22. Perhaps the problem is that the GLBT community

is not united in it's rejection of religion and the so called moderates that enable the hard liners. Leftists and others should make a stand against organized religion not as a rejection of god but a rejection of the control mechanism that is a huge part of religion. If we don't do something about it now expect a christian taliban movement gain power. The resentment poor right wingers have now over wall street and other factors that have deceased their quality of life will be exploited by power hungry members of the clergy, eager to destroy whatever is left of our secular society.

[murdoch]

24. Gay marriage

When gay marriage is on the agenda, then all that stuff you talk about - adoption, anti-discrimination laws for teachers or any workers, civil unions which don't use the word marriage, all of this seems tamer and more acceptable. So all the other stuff gets passed more easily. Once that all gets in, and you have an active movement pushing for gay marriage and the other stuff, eventually in time it will come to pass.

The glass is not always half-empty. It lost 53% and 47% in Maine, and polls show the younger people are, the more they support gay marriage. Education, organization and agitation works - if the work continues, then in a few years that 47% will climb until it is a majority.

[Tsar_Bomba]

26. Effort should be made to educate the youth to rebel

against church authority and the false notion that the clergy is above criticism because they are called "men of god".

[Roland99]

25. Florida Gay Adoption Ban Is Ruled Unconstitutional

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/26/us/26florida.html

[justiceischeap]

29. The right uses education as a tool to get people to vote against gay marriage

Often times, they will claim that homosexuality will be mandatory education in schools if gay marriage is allowed. What they successfully do is use people's fears to win the fight.

What the gay community needs to do is to keep on doing what we do. In all honesty, it isn't the gay community that's the problem in getting this fight turned around. It's straight people not fighting with us.

During the civil rights movement, black folks fought and fought bravely, tirelessly, often giving their lives for the cause. However, when white people started fighting with them, seeing that it couldn't be accomplished by the minority group alone, that's when the tide started to turn. So, as I see it, straight people need to stand up, get involved, make calls, write letters, etc. Until straight people unite with gay people to increase our numbers, we won't win our equal rights.

[sabrina 1]

30. I have a question ~ why allow these votes

at all on what is a civil rights issue? This platform of putting people's rights up for a vote gives the haters a chance to influence it.

So, my question is, why not start a law suit based on the 14th Amendment. I'm not sure how this would work, where it would be filed etc. If it could get all the way to the SC, that would be great. It would at least steer the discussion in the direction of civil rights and keep the focus there.

As for the religious nuts who would most likely claim their rights are being violated, I don't think that would work. Mainly because of our separation of religion and government clause in the Constitution. They are not being forced to do anything, other than mind their own business, and not inflict their religious beliefs on anyone else. Very constitutional argument against them.

Make it a class action suit that includes the families and friends of gays, who are also affected by the violation of rights.

Doing it this way, no hater can sign on or influence those who do. I just think this is a Constitutional issue and cannot be settled by laws that can be so easily be struck down thanks to the interference and funding coming from religions groups.

On the down side, I know it would be a risk as far as this SC. But if they stick to law, I do not see how it could lose.

There is also the 'no taxation without representation' aspect of this so-called Democracy. Along with the filing of the lawsuit maybe a huge movement with-holding taxes (keep them in an escro account) until there is equal representation for gays. This could probably only be done by gays themselves but a few million people with-holding their taxes might get their attention.

Just trying to think of a better way than what is happening right now. I probably am not seeing many of the obstacles to taking it to court, I admit. Anyhow, I am so sorry for those whose rights were trampled on once again last night.