On kids, and society

[nadinbrzezinski]

Ok we all notice this the most inside a long tube with wings at ten thousand feet. But kids SEEM to be more out of control than they used to.

And folks, I suspect it is not your imagination. The US goes through cycles in child rearing. Of course the US also sees this as a responsibility purely of parents, regardless of this it takes a village to raise a kid... ok.

But there is more. These days parents are raising kids on their own. It used to be, even a generation ago, but more as you go further into the past, that parents had a social support network to raise junior. These days it is primarily parents, who are overwhelmed, exhausted and have no kin near by (in general) to come and relieve desperate parents so desperate parents can go take a break. This is no longer happening folks. It used to.

Now this has had some interesting consequences. Instead of having mother gently guiding daughter in the finer points of child rearing, or even taking over those duties from time to time... we have books, and perhaps baby sitters.

Now we are also seeing a 180 from how many of us were raised. If I did some of the stuff... yes we all have heard it... oooh boy.

Now here is a piece of news we all have to do as a society. If we truly believe it takes a village to raise a child, helping parents by correcting the behavior of an out of control two year old is not fully out of the question. I have done it. Of course there is more, our kids are growing in a society where they need STUFF to prove they belong with their peers... and they have far more toys than I ever could imagine outside a toy store. Of course this follows the pattern of collecting stuff in our society. So that is another thing that needs to break.

Now parents are ultimately responsible for their kids, but we need to embrace this... it takes a village, because you know what? Those "brats" that you all complaint so-much will grow up and become the core of a society.

Oh and I am not looking forwards to that moment either....

Oh and for the record, I do take over kid rearing for my nephews from time to time... so yes I do what I preach... but there are days...

[JVS]

1. Saying that it takes a village does not create a village where there is none.

There is no village anymore.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Exactly

and how are you going to do about it? I take a neighbor of mine to the store every so often, she is in her eighties. I take another out as well, she has MS, and I take care of my nephews from time to time.

I decided to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

And this is what we need to do in this highly atomized society. And it will not change if we just complaint about it.

[JVS]

7. What I've decided to do about it is realize that this means that there won't be help raising a child

Consequently, I plan on not having one.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Navy intervened so we don't have them either

but apart of that decision, what are you going to do to fight the atomization?

[Hannah Bell]

68. The reason there is no village is because the economy is global, not local.

How should people fight it? They don't have significant influence in the economic decisions that shape the world they live in.

[conscious evolution]

71. Then create one

We are the ones we have been waiting for
I know that is starting to sound like a worn out cliche but it also speaks directly to part of our societys problems.If you want change you have to go out and start creating it yourself instead of waiting for someone else to do it.

[JVS]

72. What makes you think I want one? There are good sides to not being in villages.

Villages usually had a pecking order and exerted a lot of social sanctions on members for their compliance or lack thereof. I'm happy not to have to put up with their bullshit. Fuck the village, I'm happier on my own.

[conscious evolution]

74. If you want to be a self centered,self absorbed person

then it is your right to be one.
My observations have led me to believe,however,that such people are seldom very happy,though.

[cali]

76. I love living in a village. I love belonging to the grange and going

to corny church suppers and corn roasts and knowing my neighbors. Different strokes....

[cali]

75. really? anywhere? not so. Community and "villages" exist in many places

in this country. Just because you're unaware of them, doesn't mean they don 't exist.

[smalll]

3. Makes some sense -- but I blame the rottenness of kids these days not only to --

permissive parenting, but also to the fact that kids don't get to be kids on their own outdoors anymore.

Let them live as we did -- out in the woods and the backyards and even on the streets -- let them ride their bikes as far as their little legs will take them. But they don't get to do that anymore, thanks to fearful helicopterism.

The great outdoors is key for children. It satisfies their sense of wonder, and it lets them wear themselves out. Today's poor kids -- indoor creatures, mesmerized by their video games, scheduled every now and then for "play dates" ( :puke: ), riding along in the back seats of SUVs with their faces glued to drop-down video screens ....

No wonder they're so fucked up. No wonder half of them are on ritalin.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Helicopterism is part of how we have changed child rearing

we go through these phases historically...

Hell there was a time there was no childhood either.

As to Ritalin... we do have kids that actually NEED IT...

Perhaps we should go back to the time when there was no childhood... oh wait, that was a time when there was no middle class either.

The point is, it is NOT JUST THE PARENTS. It is the society, and we are going to pay a huge price for that.

[pnwmom]

9. Kids do need a lot more exercise than most of them get. We have a puppy now

and it's the same with her; if she has enough exercise she's much more well behaved.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Oh absolutely a tired child is a good child

but they also need limits and many of our kids don't have them. I suspect that is a reaction as to HOW many of us were raised... we had strict limits, kids today don't... so perhaps their kids will.

[pnwmom]

45. I think the problem may be that parents are less likely to physically abuse

their children than in the past, in the name of discipline -- which is GOOD; but instead of consistently taking the time and effort to use positive discipline methods, they just give up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Exactly I will never raise my hand at a kid

but you need to be damn consistent... and that takes time.

[conscious evolution]

79. Creative Chaos

Thats what this place calls it-
http://www.makeyoursoulshine.com/

Gets them outdoors running around and having fun.And very worn out when their parents pick them up at the end of the day.The parents love it.
What amazes me is how the kids look out after each other.
They also seem to lose their hypnotic fascination with tv and video games.The place has a tv and video games for rainy days.The kids ignore them.On rainy days they make up their own games or go outside and play in the rain.The center actually had to make a hose down station to clean the kids off at the end of the day so they would not trash their parents vehicles.

[NYC_SKP]

4. IIRC, it was not uncommon in the sixties to for a child to be admonished by an adult unknown to them

In a public place, in a store, on the street, particularly if the parent was distracted.

Would this result in a defensive reply by the parent? I'm sure it sometimes would.

What I remember is that I was from time to time told by a perfect stranger adult to 'not do that' or some such.

This dynamic seems absent in today's society.

PS: I agree that much was lost with the demise of the extended family.

I was raised more by our live-in grandma than by my working mom.

And all family adults were like parents to us kids.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. And that friendly, but stern stranger intervention

still happens in other countries. I have no problem doing that in Mexico. Hell, I have no problem doing it at Target either... usually to the relief of the parent.

[Codeine]

10. If I did something stupid outdoors as a kid

the nearest neighbor would ream me, and then my mom would find out and she'd ream me again. I learned that my behavior needed to fall into acceptable limits of human decency and never had any problems.

Now if an adult were to admonish a child the wrath of a thousand fucking hells would open onto that person, because nobody has the right to tell dear little perfect Ashleigh what a rotten little piece of shit she's being. All a child learns is that he or she can act as desired, and a parent will enable that child every step of the way.

[Odin2005]

15. LOL, I grew up in a close-knit rural area so I got that community scolding.

And I'm thankful for it. :)

[sandnsea]

18. "a rotten little piece of shit"

oh yes, I absolutely want you correcting my grandchildren's behavior. :eyes:

[pnwmom]

54. LOL. n't

[Odin2005]

12. I've done that before and got a lecture from the parent.

I was in a nursing home seeing my grandmother and these two snotty kids were running harassing the residents. I gave them a good scolding, upon which they went and whined to their mother, who was with a relative in a nearby room, who came and told me to say out of her business. :eyes:

[NYC_SKP]

17. I have, too. And, less frequently, I've had the occasion to have a word with the parent.

Though, more likely than not, the poor behavior of the child is an indicator that a talk with the parent might not be well received.

Nonetheless, sometimes they just need to be calmly told to please take control.

:thumbsup:

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. You did the right thing

Those kids are better off because you cared enough to ask them to behave.

[Odin2005]

36. Thank you!

:hi:

[conscious evolution]

73. I agree

When a kid is harassing others then it is your business.

[Berry Cool]

20. The "extended family" that helped raise children in the past is largely a myth.

Few kids were raised by extended families in the supposed "good old days"...in part because life expectancies didn't always allow several generations of families to be alive at once to raise the kids.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. No it wasn't, and there are plenty of history books as well as papers on it

extended family does not just mean parents, but also cousins, uncles, aunts, you know EXTENDED family...

[Odin2005]

24. Actually life expectancy was on the high 60s after you made it though early childhood.

Very low life expectancies are generally the result of very high child mortality.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. That extended family included neighbors

and teachers and any other adults the kids knew.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. +10

that is the part of the it takes a village

[blueamy66]

96. Exactly.

I was often disciplined by a neighbor and very often disciplined by a teacher. Then I got in more trouble when I got home.

Now parents threaten teachers with lawsuits and the like.

They are teaching their children the wrong way to get thru life.

We had respect for our elders. We never called adults by their first name....had many aunts and uncles because of that.

My sister-in-law is raising my youngest nephew right. The young man says please and thank you and shakes his uncle's hand.

I have no children....never wanted them. But I sure can recognize good behavior. It's not that difficult. Why some parents cannot recognize it....you got me.

[Hannah Bell]

69. the lower life expectancy of the past is partly a myth as well.

[EndersDame]

92. people had kids earlier ergo granny and great aunts were alive

people also had more kids so their were more aunts, uncles,great aunts, great uncles as well as cousins and second cousins. I grew up just North of Mexico and had this system.

[NYC_SKP]

93. Yep, and dollars to donuts census figures would show that households were much larger in the past.

Due not to more children but to multiple generations and extended families.

We're now in a two (or one) parent, two children, per household world.

With fences in between each closed world.

:donut:

[NYC_SKP]

95. Yep, and dollars to donuts census figures would show that households were much larger in the past.

Due not to more children but to multiple generations and extended families.

We're now in a two (or one) parent, two children, per household world.

With fences in between each closed world.

:donut:

[Odin2005]

13. I take care of my niece and nephew all the time.

My Dad's side of the family is very close-knit and has a strong "it-takes-a-village" mindset. They are all good liberals, of course. :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. I do that with my nephews as well

We could share horror stories, as well as fun stories I am sure.

:-)

But we are the damn exception.

[Odin2005]

21. LOL, so true.

One day my niece wanted to go to the park with her friend and she got all exasperated when I gave them the standard "watch for cars and don't get into the cars of strangers" speech upon which she let a heavy kid sigh and says "I KNOWWWW, Uncle Tay! :eyes: "

:rofl:

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Testing limits, we took them to Legoland

kids started unbuckling themselves... what can I say? Let's just say their day (and mine) was ruined.

Oh and they buckled themselves back in... but the verbal scolding meant... I had very quiet kids on the way to dinner...

That is the most recent in the horror story department.

They are young... so there is time.

:hi:

[sandnsea]

30. The day was ruined??

Seriously?? You couldn't say "oh my gosh, we have to wait for the attendant to come, it's the rules." without terrorizing them?

Apparently you're another person I wouldn't want "helping" with my grandkids.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. So you prefer the kids unbuckle their car seats

I crash and they go flying? And worst case scenario get themselves either killed or disabled for life... that is preferable than a good talk on why you do not do that? Okey dokey...

M'kay... far preferable I guess than me stopping at the gas station and giving them a good verbal lesson on WHY you do NOT unbuckle yourself when a vehicle is in motion.

M'kay...

Remind me not to allow you near my nephews. These are the kinds of limits that kids need, and are parent approved.

And yes, they did that on the way home and yes that ruined a fairly decent day.

[Odin2005]

37. Good going!

:)

[sandnsea]

38. You can't just tell them to keep their seats buckled?

Why do you have to terrorize them?

Our rule is simple. The car doesn't move unless the seat belts are buckled. My grandson is 4 and has unbuckled his seat belt exactly once. When he figured out we would just stop the car and buckle him back up, it became rather pointless to unbuckle the seat. No terrorizing necessary.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. And what happens when junior unbuckles the seat belt

on the Interstate?

And you repeatedly tell them NOT TO DO THAT? And you HAVE TO PULL OUT OF THE INTERSTATE AND DEAL WITH IT?

You understand the concept of TESTING LIMITS? DON'T YOU?

Or are you just being obtuse?

Now telling a kid NOT to do that is NOT TERRORIZING... perhaps in your world it is. Would you like the phone to CPS while we are at it?

[sandnsea]

47. I don't repeatedly tell them anything. I tell them ONCE

And I would pull over to the side of the interstate and buckle them back in.

But they don't do this because they already know the rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. So once again, telling them and dealing with the problem

is an issue with you.

I see.

Again, what part of testing limits are you missing?

Oh and by the way... as a former EMS worker STOPPING ON THE INTERSTATE IS VERY DANGEROUS.

It is best to get off at the next ramp, and PARK OFF THE INTERSTATE.

Now you were not with us in the vehicle, so you do not know exactly what transpired. k'ay

But to you verbally discipling a kid is terrorizing... m'kay...

And you are also perfect and have never had a kid test limits. Which by the way, I call bullshit on... since ALL KIDS test limits...

ALL KIDS...

[sandnsea]

52. You said you ruined their day

and that they were sullen all through their dinner. You terrorized them, whether you like to admit it or not.

I live in a rural area where pulling off alongside the interstate is not a big deal. I wouldn't do that in the city.

Seriously though, I have never had trouble with my kids or grandkids and seat belts. I think it's because I know how to pick my battles and seat belts are a battle that they know better than to push. It just will not work.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. If disciplining a kid is terrorizing, guilty as charged.

I guess in your world we don't discipline kids because that is terrorizing. Thanks for showing why kids don't have limits these days.

And no, it is NOT SAFE to stop on the interstate... even less in RURAL areas.

And I do know how to pick my battles too. I guess I should not have picked that battle... WEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!

[sandnsea]

55. You clearly don't know how to pick your battles

or you wouldn't have had to terrorize your niece and nephew to teach them the importance of wearing a seat belt. Perhaps everything is a battle to you which is why they feel the need to push on something so critically important.

Your tone in this thread says it all. I simply asked if you don't think a simple admonishment and discussion about safety wouldn't have worked as well, and you flew off the handle. Tells me all I need to know about the situation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. NEPHEWS

and WEEEEE... much preferable they fly out of their seat.

GOT IT

:sarcasm:

And speaking of flying off the handle you have... and you are the one stopping on one of the most dangerous places on the road, an INTERSTATE, because we all know it is VERY SAFE.

Okie dokie.

And when admonishment does not work, you need to step it up sweetie. But after readying that thread on poop, planes and diapers... truly that tells me how self absorbed YOU ARE sweetie.

WOW!

That was unbelievable....

And yes, free clue... IT IS UNSANITARY dearie...

[sandnsea]

59. And the abuse continues. *sigh*

Get help. You need it.

Gnite.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. Abuse? ON A MESSAGE BOARD

Look at the mirror. YOU DO NEED HELP.

WOW!

[sandnsea]

62. Look at what you've said & done

You've slandered me, ridiculed me, out and out lied about what I was saying in order to justify the mistreatment of children. That's abusive and it goes to your character. You don't need to act like that to get little kids to buckle a seat belt. And you don't need to act like that to respond to a question about an admonishment and safety discussion. But you did.

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. Mistreatment is equal to discipline... WOW

now here is a clue for you... as an EMS worker I have actually seen honest to god child and elder abuse.

Telling a kid in no uncertain terms this is not kosher falls in neither category. Even if at times you need to use a drill sergeant tone of voice... fer the fucking record, that is the first time in their lives they've heard that tone of voice.

Now in your world it does... which tells me far more than I want to know about you...

Oh and a discussion on a message board is hardly slander... look the term up.

For the record, I have also reported on both to proper authorities as required by law.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

67. Fly out of their seat?

Was the car in some kind of gravity well or something? Were you driving erratically? What exactly would cause them to fly out of their seat?


Not to be judgmental but I don't think you know shit about parenting besides the doctor seuss buzz words.

While I disagree with sandsea that changing a diaper on the plane seat is ok. It is not, The idea that unbuckling a seat belt should "ruin a day" or require pulling over and berating children is ridiculous. Your Nephews are well aware they are supposed to keep their seat belts on, all your lecture or whatever you want to call it was was you over reacting to a situation that could have been solved by saying put your seatbelt back on!

You do love to pontificate though so I can see where you had problems with that.

[Raineyb]

85. Flying out of one's seat is what happens when one is in an accident and isn't

wearing seat belts.

Perhaps reading the entire thread will help prevent such silly science fiction leaps of logic for a perfectly terrestrial explanation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. If you or a child is unbuckled when you get into an accident

injuries are that much more worst... or minor injuries can become lethal.

Have you ever been at an accident scene? As a medic I have. And I have seen my fill of kids flying out windows or open doors and picked up by the Coroner. Granted, that is a worst case scenario.

And no I was not driving erratically... nor was my husband. Any other questions?

[NeedleCast]

127. +1

[Amaya]

102. what's with you and the word "terrorize"

i mean seriously? i can't stop laughing at your posts :)

[Horse with no Name]

119. I don't understand the mentality of whoever you are talking to

There are things that we JUST DON'T DO. Those are the limits that are set and are the exact way each and every time and without exception.
One is that YOU WILL BE BUCKLED IN. No exceptions. Never. It is that way always. The kids respect that if it is an iron-clad boundary. And it is.
Two is, you WILL TAKE YOUR MEDICINE. No exceptions. Never. It is that way always. Iron-clad boundary. I can't tell you my experiences of having 5 and 6 year olds spit medication everywhere. No, we don't do that. It is not allowed. My kids know this.
Another is that they WILL sit still while we are in a public place. No, you cannot go drag your nose across the front door or wipe your butt on the coffee table. Please don't ask to throw magazines and other paraphernalia all over the place. Don't kick the seat in front of you, and speak in indoor voices.
It is RESPECT. It isn't that hard to teach. I realize that there is a subset of kids with difficulties who cannot fall into these categories, but for the most part, kids can and will do the right thing. By the way--I don't believe in spanking. So it can be done without beating the living shit out of a kid.

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. Exactly a stern voice works

:-)

[sandnsea]

132. That's exactly right

And there shouldn't be any reason a parent has set up a power struggle over seat belts. It should be an absolute. The car doesn't go if the seat belts aren't buckled. Nothing to get in a tizz over or ruin a day over. Buckle the seat belts or the car stops. That is all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

136. The car stops on the intestate are you fucking NUTS?

Yep, that way the 18th wheeler can hit you from behind... WAY TO GO!!!!!

You have purposely missed the whole discussion since you need to show YOU ARE PERFECT and DEAR YOU ARE NOT.

Clear enough?

By the way, that was the FIRST AND LAST FUCKING TIME THAT BECAME AN ISSUE. ARE YOU CLEAR ON THIS?

Oh I forgot, discipline is child abuse in your world.

[sandnsea]

144. That was not discipline

A disciplined child wouldn't have been playing seat belt games in the car. EVER. It would be as far out of the question as threatening to pee in the grocery store aisle. Get it? That should be such a rule that the thought of unbuckling the belt never even comes up.

Somewhere along the line in your relationship with those boys, you've set up some misplaced power struggles. That's the only reason those boys would even think of doing this to you on the freeway.

Not that I think you'll listen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. Kids TEST LIMITS... and if you are not aware of it

then you have no fucking clue.

And misplaced power struggles are you fucking nuts?

You really have no clue, and you are trying to do prove something that tells me that YOU HAVE NO CLUE whatsoever.

As to listen, listen about what?

Paging Dr. Freud... truly.. or perhaps Jung.

:banghead:

Some folks have a need to call things they have no clue what they are not.

And you are one of them.

[sandnsea]

148. lol, riiiight

Raised 4 kids, worked at Head Start and various pre-schools, ran a scout troop for 4 years, went on various trips with the boxing club --

but I have no clue about kids. lol.

When I first posted I actually thought the kids took the seat belt off of an amusement ride because they didn't know they weren't supposed to. Seemed like a simple thing to just tell them it was against the park rules without having to ruin their day at the park.

When I realized you were talking about a problem in the car, well then that meant there was a completely different problem. Yes, kids test limits as they grow into adulthood. That's why it's up to the adult to make sure a limit like a seat belt is something they never think of testing, like going to the bathroom in the grocery aisle. It just should not occur to them and since it did, that would be because you've approached belt buckling wrong -- or they've seen an adult not wear seat belts which gave them the idea.

If they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the car doesn't go without everybody buckled, they would never think to test that. You did not reinforce that by allowing the car to continue down the freeway either. You should have immediately pulled over or pulled off, whichever. The car doesn't go if everybody isn't buckled. That's discipline.

[nadinbrzezinski]

149. And your point?

Oh yes, we are perfect, aren't we?

Have a good fucking life mrs perfect...

PLOINK

[sandnsea]

150. So someone who suggests preferable discipline is "Mrs. Perfect"?

Interesting. I guess the village is only good when you're doing the judging and condemning.

[Raineyb]

42. You don't seem to have any limits whatsoever.

But then you think it's perfectly acceptable to change diapers in the airplane cabin so I guess I should consider the source.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Self removed

Sorry

[sandnsea]

49. Who said I wouldn't make them buckle their seat belts?

I said I don't need to terroize them to get them to do it, and I certainly don't need to ruin a special day to an amusement park over a seat belt.

That would be because I know how to parent.

[Raineyb]

57. Like I said no limits. Children who don't behave don't get treats like

visits to the amusement park. And if I tell the kids to buckle up and they don't they don't go to the amusement park. I don't believe in rewarding children for bad behavior. You see, the amusement park is NOT a necessity. Buckling up when in the car is.

[sandnsea]

58. It's pretty simple isn't it

My kids and grandkids know that. The car doesn't move if they aren't buckled. No threats necessary. I've said that repeatedly.

I know how to set limits without abusing kids. I don't know why you keep pretending that's the same thing as not having limits.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. They did that ON THE WAY HOME

Not on the way to the park.

If they had done that on the way to the park, turn around and go home.

But I am sure you knew that.

:-)

That is part of raising kids.

But of course Sand has never, ever had a kid challenge any of her limits... and I call bullshit on it.

[Raineyb]

63. We are definitely seeing eye to eye on this one. n/t

[cali]

77. taking care of nephews from time to time hardly makes you a parent.

[Raineyb]

87. Your dismissive attitude is emblematic of the attitude that has the "village"

disappearing. Suddenly adults who have do not have children either by choice or circumstance have been relegated to those who should shut the fuck up because apparently only those who have had the children apparently know any damn thing despite evidence to the contrary. In my family, that would never wash. If my nieces or nephew refused to listen to me or any other qualified adult when they are to do something they'd hear it from me AND their mother. The idea that "you can't tell me shit" is why so many children run wild and even their parents can't get them in line. Then they grow up to be self absorbed adults who fuck things up for everyone around them as well.

Your attitude is exactly what the OP was addressing in the first place.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. That is CALI by the way... she is dismissive of anybody but herself

but she does demonstrate that little fact. The village is disappearing because of attitudes like hers.

[cali]

152. what typical bullshit from you, dearie.

I live and am part of tight communities here. Not only the commune where I lived when my son was small and which I'm still tight with, but the village that I live in. I belong to the Grange, help my elderly neighbors and live in a place where that is the norm. You know nothing about me. zippo, honey.

[cali]

151. uh, wrong. But the OP is hardly an expert on parenting- though she holds

herself out to be such- as well as holding herself out to be an expert on everything else under the sun.

And my son had the fantastic advantage of growing up with not only extended family but real villages to support him.

[Raineyb]

157. She's done no such thing.

But your inability to read doesn't surprise.

[sandnsea]

16. When the neighbor came to complain about my uncles

They dumped a bucket of water on her head from the upstairs window.

1930s.

Oh yeah, it's just these modern times.

I agree with your post, but I also think some folks have selective memory or whatever that's called when you look on your own childhood with rose colored glasses.

By the way, my grandparents were very stern Catholics who sent all the kids to Catholic school with nuns and rulers and the whole nine. They still acted up. Good lord the stories.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. My rose colored glasses are from a different society

where some of that is not gone. And I mean the SOME part...

And I did not say kids were angels... for god sakes I was a demon myself... but there were LIMITS, and yes I hazard to say that if you look at the history of child rearing you will find that this lack of extended family to rear children has had a major effect on families and kid's behavior.

[sandnsea]

23. And there are LIMITS now

I wasn't raised with "ma'am" and "sir" in California, perhaps people in the south don't even know a culture without "ma'am" and "sir" exists. I suspect it is more community standard differences than real changes in children. The kids trick-or-treating were as sweet as ever.

Life is messy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. m'kay, so your contact is at trick or treating

ok...

And when I said another society I meant ANOTHER COUNTRY.

[sandnsea]

28. I know what you meant

I was just using the sir ma'am thing as one obvious difference.

I raised 4 kids, have 3 grandkids, live in a neighborhood full of kids, am around kids all the time.

But go ahead and twist everything to shreds to try to prove the modern child is horrible and parents are worthless.

It's pathetic.

[Chulanowa]

27. Kids aren't getting more out of control. You're just getting older

But on the bright side, now you have a new way to relate to your parents!

"Kids these days! *Cane-shaking*"

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Sorry, but there is research into this...

http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521813204

http://assets.cambridge.org/97805218/13204/sample/9780521813204ws.pdf

http://jbd.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/15/2/185

http://maxweber.hunter.cuny.edu/pub/eres/EDSPC715_MCINTYRE/C-ChildAbuse.html

So yes, there is actual RESEARCH... and we know childhood is a MIDDLE CLASS CONSTRUCT of mostly the Progressive Era... and that it used to be a COLLECTIVE effort.

Next...

[Chulanowa]

39. There's research done on the Loch Ness Monster, too

Of course, all that research amounts to is collecting and stretching evidence supporting the researcher's initial claim and discarding the rest. Research is not the same as scientific fact.

Every single generation concocts this ridiculous fucking fantasy about how their childhood was awesome and so much better than childhood these days. This isn't because of a progressive degeneration of society, as so many just love to think (they need something to justify the funding they need for their crusades, you know). it'e because as you get older, your memories become less vivid, tend to blend together with imagination, and basically turn into a storybook.

You should hear my mother go on about "kids these days" - And then you should hear her stories about what she did with the roadies at an Alice Cooper concert in 1970. Or about the moment she got her license, hauling ass to Vegas and ending up stranded in Utah. My dad has some real killers, too. And both of them are the youngest of large litters of aunts and uncles, all of whom have plenty of stories that make myself and my siblings look like absolute angels.

It's not a societal collapse. It's just brain plaque. Squirt some Scope up your ear, it'll help :D

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Of course because we all know science and history is bunk

That anti intellectual stand in the US is a whole different rant by the way.

[Chulanowa]

111. No, but pseudoscience and "Golden Age" history are

Being able to perceive agendas, propaganda, and outright bullshit masquerading as "information" is a fine hallmark of intellectual capability.

"Society is degenerating and kids today are little monsters" is golden-ageist (and regular ol' ageist) claptrap. It has been an assertion made about every generation in recorded history. An intelligent person would class it right in there with other doomsday prophecies as horse shit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. again, history is claptrap I know

So is social science and political science research...

Got it.

[Chulanowa]

156. Well, if you want to cling that tightly to the BS, don't let me stop you

Just remember, you're the one pretending history is fake here.

[alittlelark]

33. I see kids now as much more mature and responsible

than my peers in the late '70's and early 80's. The 4-Hills crowd (the rich kids) in Albuq. were routinely breaking into houses to support their speedball habits. I knew 5 girls who left school pregnant before their senior year. Our parties were out of control quite often. The campus 'narcs' were dealing pot. The cool kids had booze in their lockers....... I could get ANY drug I wanted w/in 36 hours.


The kids I see now are MUCH more informed about world issues - they tend to utilize their time effectively.

There are issues regarding poverty which transcend generations - those born into the lower economic classes will have more negative results.



I refuse to say that this new generation is F'ed up - that has been said about every new generation for a few hundred years.

This is a generation I have HOPE in.... I've seen their maturity and thoughtfulness.

The bad eggs will always be with us - do not throw those eggs at a whole generational group.

[seabeyond]

80. the biggest issue i see, is children raising themselves, given the adult world

as children and having to figure it out with having been given the tools and foundation to be successful in the world. in the past, frist we taught them how to work and make responsible choices within the security and safeness of their home. today, we start teaching our children at 2 and 3 to protect themselves always conscience of the stranger around the corner, adn it does not stop or slow down from their

parents job to protect and watch for safety, but today, the child learns it is their job. yet they are not given the tools to create a steady, strong, reliable foundation

i didnt explain it well.

[Warren DeMontague]

44. I think the situation with flying is that the whole experience has become so incredibly worse than

it used to be. It's miserable, everyone involved is miserable, it's no wonder that kids are whiny, parents are stressed, and other passengers don't want to deal with it.

Flying just plain sucks in a bucket.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Ever rode on busses?

That was the experience on busses... Greyhound has moved to the sky.

That is what this is exactly like

[Warren DeMontague]

48. Yes, I took a Greyhound from LA to San Francisco in 1987...

You are right, flying has become the equivalent.

[Hannah Bell]

70. until the 80s, greyhound was fairly nice; nice enough that as a child i was put on it *alone* to

ride 200 miles at least once a year - i'm talking about 12 yr old & up.

it started downhill with reaganization, deregulation of transportation industries (esp airlines & the price wars) & a series of 80s strikes.

the union drivers got screwed, they reduced seat space, hired scabs & part-timers, allowed stations to decline, usual deregulation story. including a semi-phony "bankruptcy" much like our present auto industry "bankruptcy".

now it's the transportation choice of crackheads on a lot of runs, the uniforms cheap-looking, people packed in like sardines & the busses smell like pee.

i listened to a lot of drivers kibbitzing over the years about the reaming they got.

now we have shitty trains, airlines & busses, all of which were once world class.

[seabeyond]

81. i dont believe that the kids are all that people are professing. until recently i flew a lot

and i didnt see this end of the world out fo control problem with not only kids, but baby either.

a bunch of self absorbed adults that sees a little one and KNOWS their life will be inconvienenced, without a thing happening. they have to make that true in their world, regardless if it is a reality. one little sound that reaches their ear is the OMG, i heard a child. out of control and parent not doing a thing

like the smoking, a 100 yrds a way, not a smell to be had, pointing finger, coughing up a storm, a smoker, oh lordy, the smoker is killing me on the spot. how dare they

people that want to live this world in complaints will make sure they have something to complain about.

[nadinbrzezinski]

125. I have seen it, and I usually ascribe it to not out of control parents

but exhausted parents.

No, not often, but I have seen it

[seabeyond]

135. for the first time, my son called me a jerk today. he did it in the music store in front of cashier

he took it back quick, but the dye was set. and here the cashier can be on a board saying the out of control child, you know what he did to mom. and mom took it. why did i take it? i couldn't beat the shit out of him or throw a tantrum in the middle of the store.

this kid has never done anything like this. he was in an emotional meltdown because of his own peculiarities that none of us would understand, but he does. he had to give up a viola he has had for two years and get a new one. most kids would be excited. he hates giving up anything old. cried over a change in refrigerated. big deal when i got a new car. makes life hard for us, harder for him. perfectly imperfect, but he has always been. some things we can accommodate, others we cant

so i understand what was up with him, cashier is clueless. he will be punished at home, cashier clueless. he has never done before, cashier is clueless. he knew he was in trouble immediately and was sorry, cashier is clueless.

my point, .... we say a child is out of control, and reality, ... we are clueless.

i am clever enough to figure that out

adult misbehaves... not an automatic ass. could be his dog died, he lost a job, didn't know he inconvenienced someone or simply made a mistake.

but so much easier to decide person must be an ass

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. And I will repeat this

kids at times are out of control. I usually default to this is a bad day for whatever reason. But some kids are always out of control.

As to your son... yes I know he has Autism... and I know kids with developmental problems are harder to control at times. But like all other kids they need clear limits. You are giving your son those limits.

Once again, this OP is not about you, but about SOCIETAL trends.

[seabeyond]

141. this is the "normal" child, lol. the other one is never an issue. he really is the easy one in all

his oddity. but yes, that is my family and my child

yes, you may not be one of those that immediately go after children as out of control. but a lot on this board does. that is my issue. as far as the village, i couldnt agree more

this was an example i experienced today. one of the first times in our life that someone could have pointed to my children and me and said..... aaaaaahhhhhhhm. was just sharing a story adn different perspective

yes, i know there are a lot of children with aprents that dont parent. i have a brother that has two boys and a girl, i pick up the pieces often. i know it well.

[Odin2005]

154. I find it hilarous that it's your neuroptypical kid that has a fit over change.

:rofl:

[seabeyond]

155. isn't it though. with kids, if it isn't one thing, it is another. feet on the ground

that is the main difference. with the fuzzy brain child, feet are seldom on the ground. have tough time grounding in life.

but what i have learned with two so very different children is we all have our uniqueness, regardless, and that has helped my oldest to embrace his oddity. knowing, all of us have our peculiarities. crosses to bare.

[nini]

64. I was a single mom - I never made an excuse for who was responsible for my kid

The problem everyone seems to be missing over this topic is if the parent was doing their end of the job like they should situations wouldn't get of out of control everyone around them is annoyed.

The rest of society should not have to be responsible to 'raise' others kids if the parent is neglecting THEIR duties.

The parents in question are NOT the type to want to hear another adult discipline their little precious. The reason why? Because those parents are the problem to begin with.

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. And as much as you did a good job I am sure, you are missing part of this

IT IS the job of society to help you raise that kid. Or did you not send your kids to school? But with the threat of lawsuits we are taking the ability of teachers to discipline kids away from them as well.

It does take a village, we are social animals. We have forgotten this...

[REP]

65. You're forgetting the rise of the "Stranger Danger"

It's almost not worth it to try to part of the Village; there's a chance you'll get sued, be suspected of being a pedophile or be told off. What's wanted from the Village is our indulgence of their misbehavior (and I mean parents and kids), the handicapped parking spots, and generally us doing more for them - as long as we don't say a thing about the tantrums being thrown, the diapers being changed on restaurant tables, etc.

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. That is part of the whole dynamic of course

as well as helicopter parents.

They go hand in hand with the coarsening standards and the death of a village.

By the way, I DID raise more than just a fuss with a parent doing that at a restaurant... they went fuck you... well the manager asked them to either use the restroom or leave... after all that is a violation of health code.

[shimmergal]

66. Read MOTHERS AND OTHERS,

a new book by anthropologist Sarah Blaffer Hrdy.

There's cross-cultural data that shows, the presence of a maternal grandmother to help with child-rearing means an average additional survival rate of two grandchildren for every decade they're around to help after menopause.

What we can do? Certainly we should work to counter our society's negative attitude toward the extended family. Sure, there's a delicate balance between the need for independence and the benefits of sharing, but our extreme "nuclear family only" ideal serves only the interests of capitalism. People buy more "stuff" if everybody has to have, say, appliances etc. in their own little family nest. And certainly those without family (or friends as close as family, though that's harder to maintain) are more vulnerable to things like job loss.

Even liberals slam "the guy pounding away on his blog in his mom's basement". I agree, kids need to get out at some point and be responsible for themselves. But unthinking comments like that tend to undercut a healthy interdependence, too.

[raccoon]

94. But would you want your mother-in-law to live with you?

I agree with what you said about stuff and job loss.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. Actually I wond not mind if my mom lived at home with me

At all...

[raccoon]

153. Mom is one thing, mother-in-law is quite another. nt

[seabeyond]

78. for a lifetime i have gone thru my day in the outside world without being assaulted by child

be it having my senses irritated, physically or anything else. periodically a child may not be watching and step in front of me, and i have to put forth the dreaded effort of placing hand on child shoulder to stop their movement, place a oh so painstaking smile on my face with kindness and say excuse me, as i walk around the child, but that is about it.

i have had this happen with adults too

i have never thought of this world as mine mine mine and all had to walk on eggshell to accommodate me. i have always seen earth as a place i share. in so doing, when i step out of my house, i generally enjoy interacting with fellow man.

the oversensitivity of so many to outside forces is a sad place for people to sit. they will meet exactly the outrage they demand is all around them, whether it is there or not, they will create, so they can experience. it is the world they expect. it is the world they will receive

all i can say for you, those that want to live that world, when i come face to face, i will smile, and wish you a good day, and step aside, so you can stomp thru life in your misery. and my children will stand at the door for ten minutes to be sure to hold it for you, with a smile and wish you well on your way.

then you can state how horrid that child was to dare to intefere in you life.

i will keep my view of the world. you are more than welcome to yours. but my children and i will not play in your world. we are too happy, appreciate our life too much, and love too easily.

[October]

82. Not looking forward to that moment either? Interesting.

You have a lot of opinions.

My question is, if it was all so good 'back in the day' -- when "mother gently guided daughter in the finer points of child rearing..." etc., etc. then explain how that type of generation (1950's?) grew up to run Wall Street and politics the way they do? Explain the far right, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly types who were raised so lovingly/gently with all the grandparents, aunts, uncles, neighbors involved in their "rearing"?

I just think it's a sweeping generalization to suggest that the prior generation can gently guide or share duties. My mother and father were not good parents. At all. My mother was neglectful, narcissistic, and way too young. My father left and didn't pay a dime or remember birthdays/holidays. When life was hard, they quit.

My kids collect books. I asked for books for them as they grew up -- but most relatives didn't want to give that. I had family members get angry with me because I begged them "No more stuffed animals" when I counted 70.

I just don't care for the idea that 'everything was better when we were young' attitude.

[seabeyond]

83. more households parented as opposed to today for all different reasons.

that is not saying NO households parent today, just fewer. with fewer children raised in a manner of security adn confidence and growing up skills there is less influence from them adn more from children that have not been given those tools. these children will survive but the will do it with a skewed perspective, having their childhood forced in adult world way beyond their time.

again, that is not saying that ALL children experience this.

kids that are connected with their parents has a visual of what is happening to this society, and thru the connection with parent where talking, listening adn learning is a part of everday life will excel beyond our days, i imagine and what i see. but it is there and as a aprent it behooves us to be frank and observant to discuss with children.

none of it is all bad. opportunity always

we are big into books. i have had lectures from family how dare i take kids away from being children, letting them read adult level and thinking books. relatives ask, what do kids want for christmas and i say.... books, books, books. no toys and stuff out there. nothing they want. but always appreciate a good book. almenac a favorite and used and read repeatedly.

last year mother in law says NO books. wtf was my thought.

[MineralMan]

84. We can all work to recreate the village.

In my blue collar neighborhood in Saint Paul, MN, things operate about the same as they did in my small town back in the 50s. The reason is that the people who live near where I live have decided to make it that way.

I know the names of every adult and child on the block. I made it my business to learn them. I introduced myself to everyone within a month of moving into the house. I caught people when they were outside and introduced myself. It was easy, and everyone was really nice about it.

It took a little longer to learn all the children's names, but I did it. Interestingly, the several Hmong families on the block were the most eager to get acquainted.

Anyhow, I'm home all day, since I work out of my home. So does my wife. We're the house on the block with the curtains on our windows open all the time. Over time, the neighbors have discovered that we're there, reliable, and alway willing to help when help is needed.

When a kid falls off a bike, my wife and I are the first ones there to make sure they're OK. When the chain comes off a bike or a tire goes flat, the kids ring the doorbell and I come out and fix it for them. When a loose dog was menacing a neighbor's kid, I was out there with a baseball bat to scare the dog back to where it belonged. I'm also there to tell the kids to knock it off when they're doing something dangerous or destructive or if they get into a fight. If something suspicious is going on, someone on the block calls the cops, and they show up very quickly.

There are some rental houses on the block. My wife and I and a couple of the other neighbors always welcome new tenants to the block, introduce ourselves, and offer a plate of brownies or something within a couple of days of their moving in and let them know that they can call on us if they need help with anything.

This year, at the National Night Out, our block was closed to traffic and every single person was out on the street, eating ice cream, having a bicycle parade for the kids, and just chatting with each other. Even a family who was moving out of their rental the next weekend was there.

The result is that, on the block where we live, we have an old-style neighborhood. It wasn't hard to do at all. It just took a few people who wanted it to make it happen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. And you are lucky

because that is disappearing.

That said I make a point of doing that in my condo, but it wasn't designed to encourage that

[MineralMan]

146. It is disappearing, but needn't. It's up to those who don't want it to

disappear to keep that from happening. :shrug:

[la_chupa]

86. people don't so much appreciate you telling them how to raise their kids

I have noticed that there is always a screaming child around when I'm out shopping. This weekend I was in two different sporting goods stores and both of them had out of control kids. One had a kid who was about 10-11 running all around the place dribbling a basketball. I suppose his parents were pretending not to notice because I never saw anyone say anything to him or even act like he was their kid. Another one had three kids all running wild screaming. That I think was a weekend dad who didn't know what to do about it.

it makes for a nice relaxing shopping experience

[seabeyond]

89. i dont know, when we were kids we dribbled basketball in sporting store. about all kids did

big kids (adults) did too. wasnt the end of the world. wasnt even an affront to others.

go figure

just maybe today, we are so damn sensitive, controlling and nontolerant

[TwilightGardener]

90. Yeah, I read that post and thought, "I wonder if that was MY family

in the store", LOL. My boys used to have to try out the sporting equipment--I stopped them when they got too obnoxious.

[seabeyond]

91. we yell about out of control, but just being a kids seems to be an affront to so many here

what they are really demanding is that the little kid be an adult. the absurdity abounds.

[nadinbrzezinski]

133. I am talking of social and historic trends

or are those observations of US Culture claptrap and grand ma is helping raise the kids, and there is a whole gaggle of aunts and uncles helping? And are neighbors still involved in the active raising of kids? Perhaps the kind of street play we used to do? (Yes there are still exceptions to this, mostly in rural areas, but even there social isolation is on the way UP)

This is true, IN OTHER SOCIETIES, and yes the fact that we now say it is the responsibility of the PARENTS and the PARENTS themselves to raise their kids has led to more out of control kids. Not me saying this. There is this thing called research. And the reasons range from the very simple, exhausted parents, to the very complex...

Now my question is how do we REVERSE these trends? I am sure kids will grow up, mostly, to be fairly well adjusted adults by the way, after all the human animal is quite adaptable... but don't you think it would be better to reverse these trends?

By the way, TRENDS do not mean YOUR FAMILY. How you jumped from TRENDS to your family I have no idea.

[seabeyond]

137. i agree and i disagree with you. i have been one that adamently state parents arent parenting

but i also dont face the drama and trauma and keep the kids out of site attitude either. even the kids ahving a tough time, i have been able to make eye contact and connect.

i dont gripe about a kid dribbling a basketball in a sport store. or IF a kid accidently doesnt see me and is in my way. i dont look for there to be a problem, and i think so many on this board is ready to condemn a kid at the drop of a hat.

[nadinbrzezinski]

139. Once again this is not about a kid dribling a basketball at the store

or a kid hitting me accidentally at the store. This is about social trends and less and less social interaction, and more and more of the I... not the WE attitude in our society.

By the way if a kid is dribbling a ball at the store before he\ she or most likely parents buy it, by all means. TEST the damn ball before you buy it.

[seabeyond]

142. yes... i know. but look at all the posts that are not in the same peripheral as you. those are

the people i am addressing.

i a tired fo the out of control anti children adults that act like a bunch of children.

[nadinbrzezinski]

143. The out of control adults

are children who had little or no parenting, imho... and that now want the same for the kids of the current generation.

That is not based on any research I have seen, but may be worth looking for...

:-)

So if they were poorly socialized as kids, they react that way with kids, who in turn are getting poorly socialized.

[seabeyond]

147. isnt that the truth. nt

[TwilightGardener]

88. I'm grateful that in my small Midwestern town, there still is a "village" attitude--

I've had neighbors stop by to tell me that my younger son was doing something stupid and dangerous while out with his buddies. (He got punished big time, lucky he wasn't killed). Or they called to let me know that my boys were trespassing, would I please tell them to stay off the property. I've had other moms and dads give my kids a lift home when they saw them walking around town. Just about everyone here knows my sons, makes it hard for them to get into trouble or danger, or misbehave, or be disrespectful to adults--they know my husband and I will find out somehow. Someone will call us! And I would "rat out" another kid, or see him home safely, just the same. I will miss that sense of community when we leave here, especially since we're far away from family. Moms and Dads just can't do it all by themselves.

[nadinbrzezinski]

128. Moms and dads cannot do it all by themselves

that is the whole point... thanks

And you are very lucky indeed.

I may grouch about the Shtetl that I grew up in Mexico City, but there was that sense of the WE... not the I... that is missing in larger American cities and spreading to the country side.

In Mexico, due to the nature of the country, yep that Shtetl is still alive and well, if a bit dysfuntional.

[Romulox]

97. The OP is obviously written from an woman's POV. Unrelated men are not allowed to talk to children.

Let alone "help" a parent discipline their child. :shrug:

[seabeyond]

98. especially when the old man goes up to two yr old slappin them in the face. geeesh, what is the

world coming to that isnt allowed anymore.

the b*tches.

[Romulox]

99. That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about (and I suspect you know that.)

If we're introducing unrelated, gender based abuse to this thread, what about the woman who found somebody on craiglist to molest her little girl?

:puke:

[seabeyond]

103. you are the one starting the gender issue dude. and to suggest the overly sensitive

guys cant even talk victimization crap is, well.... crap.

IF anyone choses to be an ass in helping out a situation, male or female, there will probably be a confrontation. if people are social, kind and help in creative manners, male or female, will probably be embraced.

[Romulox]

104. Umm, no. The way society views strangers interacting with children is not my invention

You were introducing unrelated gender based abuse (which had little or no bearing on the subject.)

"IF anyone choses to be an ass in helping out a situation, male or female, there will probably be a confrontation. if people are social, kind and help in creative manners, male or female, will probably be embraced."

This is one time when you, as a woman, just do not have the perspective to speak on the matter. Unknown adult males are NOT welcome to "help in creative manners" as to unrelated children by society at large. You may wish it wasn't so, to to blame me for pointing out this reality is silly. :hi:

[seabeyond]

106. *sigh*

so many wholes and oversights in what you put out as a black and white.

not a reality that many men experience that actually know how to interact with a child. they are valued and appreciated.

we can get into the whole discussion of distrust of male with child, too much work

stay away from kids cause women are afraid of you. you chose.

[Romulox]

108. "we can get into the whole discussion of distrust of male with child, too much work"

Then why did you respond to my post on the subject if you can't be bothered? It boggles the mind... :wtf:

[seabeyond]

109. uuuuh, i was talking about the old man slappin. you are the one bringing up cause of

pedophilia

you make it clear you are the victim and nothing you can do. black and white for you. so why bother talking if you have a closed mind.

[Romulox]

110. When you hit "reply" under my post, it implies your comments are related to mine..

What does the story about the man slapping a child have to do with "cause of pedophilia"? And what does any of this have to do with whether or not men are "allowed" to help parent unrelated children?

It continues to boggle the mind. :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. Oh trust me women cannot either... the society has had a

huge coarsening of community standards.

The village concept remains... more-or-less and far less than more in SOME rural areas.

But in cities...

It is mostly gone, regardless of gender.

[Romulox]

134. I agree, but I think there's a difference in degree.

For example, small lost children used to be told to seek out a "grown up". Nowadays they are counseled to seek out an adult woman. I can't say that I blame parents for giving this advice, but it creates a situation in which I feel like the "village" will likely never include me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

140. Well it is time for all of us to start reversing this

and part of it includes reversing the false fears sold by our lovely press.

I mean crimes against children are WAY DOWN, but you'd never know that if you listened to the news.

[pipi_k]

100. Actually, the 180 I've seen from when I was a child is...

that my three grandkids all have a mom and dad in the home who are engaged in the lives of their children in a way that I was not in theirs and my own parents were not in mine.

It warms my heart to see my grandkids have "Daddy" in their lives.

yeah, I had a mother and I had a father, but what hurt the most was that I never had a "Daddy".

Anyway, what I'm very glad to see is that my grandkids are well behaved without having been terrorized into "good behavior" like I was.

[AngryAmish]

101. What about a good old fashioned shunning?

[Ron Green]

105. The fact that there are more "unrecommendations" of this thoughtful post

seems to show that many readers of this board have fallen in line with the libertarian philosophy of "my family is none of your business," when in fact positive reconnection among all of us, including through our kids, is desperately needed.

If we can't find ways of resocializing ourselves DESPITE the market-driven plan to alienate and divide us and turn us into consumers and away from citizenship (not to mention spiritual connection), we're doomed to the dystopia we deserve.

[seabeyond]

107. "my family is none of your business,".... or FUCK your kids and keep them out of my way

i tend to see it the last perspective due to recent posts on due about children.

[Odin2005]

159. probably the same people that hate Hillary Clinton because of her "It Takes a Village" book.

[Kurovski]

112. K&R. I try to cut a wide swath for kids.

The hopeless little idiots.;)

Sometimes there are underlying conditions that trigger problems. You just never know.

as just one example, I'd rather a parent risk "events" and get out and socialize there autistic child as best they can, rather than keep the kid at home. remember--in the old days many things were "solved" by keeping kids locked up at home.

I can almost tell when a kid is having a severe allergic reaction to something. People have no idea what it can be like in the brain when an individual highly allergic to , say, latex, has an attack. for an undiagnosed child, it must be simply terrifying.

Good post, Nadin.

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. It is terrifying to have an allergic reaction

I remember in particular a four year old. He was stung by a bee... and he started having the classic signs and symptoms. Parents called us, we showed up, and the kid was utterly terrified... Oxygen, epinephrine (which is a joy all on its own after getting stung... I mean a 22 gauge looks HUGE) and removal of stinger.

I used to carry toys with my gear...

But even toys are almost gone since plush toys and asthma don't mix.

Oh we still took kid to the pediatric ER, just to make sure... he was fine, and so were parents.

:-)

And you are right, kids at times misbehave due to issues... Autism, aspergers and others are part of it. Of course taking them OUTSIDE to the normal world is part of the skills they need to learn.

[AspenRose]

113. Yep, that's me

"These days it is primarily parents, who are overwhelmed, exhausted and have no kin near by (in general) to come and relieve desperate parents so desperate parents can go take a break."

When I was growing up I had my grandmothers and aunts around to help my parents out, which made for a tight-knit family.

I don't have that for my own kids, and being the responsible parent I do not trust my kids to just anyone.

[Horse with no Name]

118. I did it alone..many years

and have good kids.
It wasn't easy and I sometimes I made poor choices, but all in all, we all survived it.
I do take a very active role in helping to raise my granddaughters.
Making sure they play outside, get fresh air, help them with their baths, or getting ready for school. Whatever it takes.
It IS hard work--I won't lie. And I am getting older and tireder.
There are a lot of choices I have made along the way to do this. Not always in MY best interests but always in theirs.
I don't live where I want to live, I don't work where I want to work--but the choices make it easier to be part of their lives and to be helpful to their parents.
I think that a huge factor is that MANY don't want to GIVE UP (Grandparents included) what THEY want to help raise the next generation.
This is putting the economy aside because it hasn't ALWAYS been the issue.
This is a society of self-centered folks and the kids get caught in that trap too.
Not everyone is willing to drive a 10-year old car that is paid for so they don't have to work an extra 20-hours a week to pay for it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. Extreemly good point

and this cultural trend should worry people.

Bravo for remaining involved by the way. My parents try... but at 85 and 80 well it ain't easy.

[Horse with no Name]

129. I understand

And I am hoping that I am able to hold out for the Grandkids...no illusions that I won't be able to be there for the Great-grandkids. Someone else will have to carry that torch.

[Arugula Latte]

158. One thing I've noticed in being around kids

My kids are 9 & 12, so over the past decade I've had ample opportunity to interact w/ many kids, whether it is in volunteering in the classroom, birthday parties, sports teams, field trip chaperoning, etc. etc. I am consistently amazed at how unfazed many of these kids are by adult authority. I've had to at times warn or correct kids (for their own safety, or because I was in a supervisory position of authority, etc.) and many of them initially ignored me, continued the behavior, responded in a downright rude/backtalky way, etc. When I was a kid if an adult looked at me cross-eyed, let alone mildly admonished me, I would have been MORTIFIED. These kids seem to have none of that "fear" if you will.