You can't debate with someone who is starting a debate with an irrational argument

[AllentownJake]

If someone believes that witches are casting spells on Halloween candy, you can never debate that person, other than to make them look foolish.

1) The person believes that there are witches out there with ill-will towards children.

2) The person believes in magic and that such a witch has power to cast damaging spells.

You can't debate someone like that. Their belief system has no foundation in reality.


Just like you can't debate someone who believes the President is a socialist.

1) None of the President's policies have a hint of socialism.

2) Some of the President's economic policies have been to prop up institutions of capitalism at tremendous costs to the taxpayers.


Just like you can't debate someone who thinks the President is perfect.

1) The President seems like a good guy, he's demonstrated on a few occasions he is subject to the same humanity that the rest of us have.

2) There is evidence of the President under estimating the severity of a problem or over estimating the solution proposed.

Now I'm not making any moral equivalency of the three examples I cited. Obviously they are in decreasing order of delusion. Just saying, no debate can be had when someone is starting off with something that is obviously not true.

[The Straight Story]

1. That's why I never debate you in my threads

:rofl: I kid!

[AllentownJake]

2. I'm sure I have my own delusions

A man without delusions is not a man.

:rofl:

[Cant trust em]

3. Your wisdom is profound today.

[AllentownJake]

5. I've been meditating under a Bodhi tree

but taking breaks to smoke and engage in flame wars on DU.

[The Straight Story]

6. Be careful, trees are known killers:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6893377

[AllentownJake]

7. I think the tree I'm using isn't suicidal

that being said I'll crush up some prozac and water it with it.

[truedelphi]

4. What's going on today, Allentown Jake?

Are you now wanting some witch to put a curse on Obama such that Cheney and Bush retake the Presidency?

And why do you continue your hatred of Wall Street?

Surely, if President Obama has some programs that are "economic policies... to prop up institutions of capitalism at tremendous costs to the taxpayers," it is because he really understands that Wall Street needs our monies more than we do.

He is also understanding that if a President pretends to be all concillatory and stuff, he can guarantee that the health care reform bill helps only the insurers, but again, clearly the health insurers need our money more than we do.

I mean, I find it rather obnoxious that various drugs are marked up 2,000 to 82,000 Percent, but clearly I have not yet developed the type of compassion that Obama posseses. Compassion in which he humanely and justly realizes that the Greedy take more joy in big bucks than the Average People, so why shouldn't we of the lower 98% be exploited to the max - after all, someday the meek will inherit the earth (Unless of course, that matter is soemthing that Congress must decide!)

[AllentownJake]

8. I don't know

I was just called a homophobe for not respecting the opinion of a comedian which I referred to as a clown.

I think it was the new low in cheerleading ridiculousness I've encountered on DU.

[truedelphi]

10. Well if it is any consolation

May your team take the Series, something that as a Cub fan, I have finally conceded will not happen in any of my remaining nine lives (The low point there was when the home run needed by the Cubs to take the winning game was batted back into the ball park by a fan.)

[AllentownJake]

12. Maybe you'll get lucky when the team gets a new owner

I'm a Philadelphia sports fan. The town went 26 years without anyone winning anything and we have a sport for every major franchise.

[FrenchieCat]

16. That is so sad.......

Poor thing! Were you really called a Homophobe for calling Wanda Sykes a clown who gets paid,
because her opinion didn't agree with yours? That must have been really a
difficult and traumatic experience.

But I can attest that you weren't called a Homophobe,
so it's pretty low to lie about what you have been called, if you haven't....
and to start a thread to say it, too.

Glad I'm getting to know the real you.

[AllentownJake]

17. and here folks is delusion number 3

[FrenchieCat]

19. Where you called a homophobe based on calling Ms. Sykes a Clown.....

or called a homophobe at all....and if so, could you link to such language?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8724539&mesg_id=8724693

Thanks!

Far as I'm concerned, if you would lie
about being called a name here at DU,
it means that you would lie about anything.

[AllentownJake]

21. It is pretty easy to see what you implied

I really don't want to continue the most ridiculous conversation I've had DU on another thread. BTW I'm including the primary in that...you have managed to top Seabiscut.

[FrenchieCat]

25. On that thread, you accused me of playing the Race card....

Here, you accused me, IN THIS THREAD NO LESS,
of calling you a Homophobe...
when in reality, I only said that you were starting to be sound foolish.....
Being told that you sound foolish doesn't equate to playing the race card,
or calling one a homophobe. Those are serious charges that shouldn't be made
just because you feel like it.

Again, you were wrong......considering that the conversation was sounding foolish,
for you to come here, start a thread, and then lie about what occurred.

You can apologize and we can drop it...but I'll be damned if someone "uses" something that didn't
happen to make themselves appear victimized. I'm not having it.

[AllentownJake]

26. What the hell does Wanda Syke's race or sexual orientation

have anything to do with her statement he saved the world or my dismissing it based on the fact she's an entertainer.

If you were trying to make a point on Wanda's cred you think you would have talked about her 5 years at the NSA?

[FrenchieCat]

29. You dismissed her by calling her a clown......

That wasn't necessary.

No one said that you should agree with her....
But attempting to diminish her as a clown,
wasn't required. Period.

Point is, I did not call you any name....
and even when you called me one, I shrugged it off,
and stated that you labeling me didn't matter to me.

The difference is that you are lying about our exchange,
and started a thread to do it.

That ain't cool....
and anyone reading that thread
will figure out who's doing the lying,
and who isn't.

This "he/she called me names" routine
is sick and wrong, especially when those things
didn't happen.

You are not a victim.
you were not attacked.
you were not called any names.....
Get it?

[AllentownJake]

30. No I don't get it

I consider pretty much 100% of Hollywood clowns. Are there people that are less clowns than others, sure. The fact of the matter is they live in a Universe that is so devoid of the reality that most people live in.

Wanda Sykes is an entertainer, she is paid to make people laugh. I'm sorry you were offended I used the term clown but your response was to talk about her identity as a woman, african american, and as a gay person. That has nothing to do with me dissmissing someone from Hollywood.

If you were serious about talking about Wanda's cred you would have talked about her career in the NSA, but you didn't you went to her identity over what she has done in her life or her accomplishments.

[The Straight Story]

9. A more serious reply to you

I remember reading a book on Tibetan Buddhism when I was younger. There was a discussion in it about the people of the lake.

Student asked a question about them (there was a group that lived near a lake and believed that spirits lived in it).

The teacher told the student (and I paraphrase here):

"It does not matter if those spirits exist or not. They have an influence over the lives of those who believe in them, in how they trade and live their lives. And in such a manner, they do indeed exist - because they have an influence. Show respect to them and their beliefs."

Just something to think about.

[AllentownJake]

11. It is dangerous to pay respect to some beliefs

Buddhism is a good religion and teacher. I've been able to balance myself a little better since reading Pema Chodron. That being said, some beliefs are dangerous to humor.

Respecting the belief of witches trying to harm people lead to witch trials. Respecting the belief that a man is doing the opposite of what you accuse him or believe him to be doing leads to pulling a lever in an election out of a falsehood which is damaging to democracy, and the belief that a man is infallible can lead to tyranny.

Are any of the examples going to lead to those things, probably not. However you must always keep a mindful eye on delusions.

[The Straight Story]

18. I think the bigger lesson may well be

They believe it, so learn about their beliefs before engaging them.

For me personally I have been better in engaging fundies because I used to be one (I was one of those asshole rw fundies) and understand their ways of thinking, and I have spent a lot more time with the bible than most of them have - from studying theology (from Moses Maimonides to current works) than they have.

I liken it to being a constitutional lawyer - same book (or document) and many interpretations of how it applies to everyday things. But knowing as much as you can and speaking to them in terms they can relate to can go a long way.

[AllentownJake]

20. Agreed

I lived in Indiana for 2 years and had a mixed bible study with some Fundies. I honestly loved those people and as long as we ended our discussions after the bible study and moved onto other topics we got a long ok. 90% of them are good people.

Like I said, I have my own delusions. Some I'm aware of others I'm probably not aware of.

[The Straight Story]

22. Perhaps, in other words

We favor a big tent - but we also call out some of those in said tent when needed :)

[AllentownJake]

23. Delusions can be good things

Some people pay good money for drugs to give them to them. :-)

[The Straight Story]

24. For me, I just use cheap beer

:rofl:

[nolabear]

14. And an important one. People don't argue facts; they argue realities.

What we have here are not debates per se because there's no tacit agreement to stick to carefully researched arguments. And that's fine. We argue, and those arguments include fears, passions, opinions, and perceptions. Those things affect us every bit as much as the "facts" do, up to the point that the facts directly interact with our lives. Even then our interpretations of what has happened and why are mostly us.

I like your spirits analogy.

[woo me with science]

31. Just as we should not bomb the moon,

because some believe that the moon people will be upset.

[enigmatic]

13. yep

I just want you to know how much I've enjoyed your posts lately. Spot-on, and that doesn't happen much here anymore.

[AllentownJake]

15. Why thank you

:blush:

[rucky]

27. +1

Jake's on fire

[AllentownJake]

28. Thank you

:blush:

[woo me with science]

32. The good news

is that even FreeRepublic is ridiculing this.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2374253/posts

[eridani]

33. I'd recommend guerilla ontology

Philosophy department joke, best defined by example. Suppose there are two women in a mental hospital who both think they are the Virgin Mary. If you introduce them to each other, one of them will get well.

I encountered a #1 who was a cashier at a hotel where a science fiction convention was being held, with all the usual costume fans running around in their creative duds. (Like with Christmas decorations, I don't do them, but I enjoy it when other people do.) The cashier asked if we were casting spells on people. I sez "Ya want one? Try this! I before E, except after C! If you remember that, I absolutely guarantee that your writing will be better."

Don't argue, but maybe you can come up with something that may put a crack in the walls they are surrounded with. That may have an effect later on, or not.

[XemaSab]

34. Dammit

I meant to cast spells on the candy beforehand.

Now it will be too late. x(

[mullard12ax7]

35. Cognitive dissonance

***Description
This is the feeling of uncomfortable tension which comes from holding two conflicting thoughts in the mind at the same time.
Dissonance increases with:

* The importance of the subject to us.
* How strongly the dissonant thoughts conflict.
* Our inability to rationalize and explain away the conflict.***


As long as people kid themselves about bailing out criminal banks, letting torturers go free, non-existent economic recovery, the wars being over, etc...there will be people screaming in our faces as the truth we speak uncomfortably addresses their numerous mis-beliefs. I think calling it "cheer leading" is woefully inadequate in describing the massive delusions suffered by those people.

[1]

36. i know! it like when i try to debate hcr and they are "we should have started with single-payer"...

and i'm all "wha?"