Slam Walmart for their labor practices, but buy a foreign car...

[JANdad]

Did it ever occur to you "elitists" who constantly bash Walmart on this board that it was the very practice of buying foreign cars that began in earnest in the 80's that has led us to where we are now???? It was your willful destruction of the middle class manufacturing base (who by and large supported the local mom and pop shops) which created an opening for Sam Walton to exploit...

As the old saying goes...be careful what you wish for (supposed "quality")...


Oh and btw...I shop Walmart probably three to four times per week...it's all you left me with...

[virgogal]

1. You raise an excellent point.

[mattvermont]

2. the difference is..

the foreign car was an issue of quality...the US auto market chose to eliminate this part of their business model.
Mall-wart thrives on those very people who choose quantity over quality...there is just so much crap from china that I can stomach

[JANdad]

3. Yeah keep tellin' yourself that

and you may feel better for putting Americans out of work thereby forcing them to buy that cheap crap from China...

[mattvermont]

6. I am deeply sorry for the loss of

a manufacturing base in the midwest or anywhere else in the US, but you have been duped by the very corporations that employed you
to believe they would ever stay here and help you when the government allowed them to leave for fractions of the wages and zero environmental
accountability.

[Mopar151]

28. If you were really from Vermont

You'd know firsthand about how you lose a manufacturing base.... Or what happens when Wal-Mart sucks the life out of a town.
Vermont's Act 250 requires developers to assess enviromental impact, and need for the development. I think Vt. has 1 or 2 Wal-marts because of that.
There are a lot of things that WallyWorld does well - they otta concentrate on them, and stop beating their help and offshoring everything out of habit.

[Sherman A1]

Well,

I spent a full year researching the car that best fit my needs (highest MPG) for my commute to work each day and Toyota Yaris kept coming up at the top of the list in my price range. I would have loved to had a Prius, but couldn't go the extra $$'s. I had driven Fords for 25 years, but their MPG's didn't come out on top, so precisely what do you believe I should have done? I wanted to buy an American Car, preferably a Ford, but they all had lower MPG's (Chrysler was much worse) and with gas then over $3.00 per gallon and a 50 mile per day commute, MPG was very important.

[Romulox]

8. Would you mind changing your avatar? Maybe there is a "Union (if it's convenient)" one?

:shrug:

[demosincebirth]

48. My sentiments, exactly

[DainBramaged]

87. These people who pretend to support Unions here would spit in our eyes

and buy japanese if they got a $10 better deal than a comparable AMERICAN car. Brainwashed little shoppers that they are.

[demosincebirth]

310. As I told Mr underdog, at times I spend a few bucks more to buy

Union or American made. Some items cost more, some cost less, but I do try and buy American made products

[joeunderdog]

89. I'm a Union Steward and I have bought things made in China. Who hasn't?

It's unavoidable. Your computer has foreign parts in it whether it says "Dell" or not. For that matter, your Toyota may have been made in the USA.

But shopping in Walmart is to buy into a corporation who has designed the most malignant, purposefully anti-worker business plan in history. Destroying small businesses and oppressing workers is not an unpleasant effect of their business model, it IS their business model.

Bottom line is that I give proper weight to the value of the product and the values of the producers and do my best to support companies that measure up. Saving money is valuable to me on some level, but saving American jobs is too.

[demosincebirth]

309. Sorry, but the toyota are assembled in the USA, parts and...

drive-trains are made in Asia. My computer is a Dell. And if I had a choice to buy one made here I would have bought it, even if it cost a little more. American jobs are more inportant to me than saving a few bucks.

[Sherman A1]

182. I did,

happy now .....Skippy?

[Romulox]

195. Well, I really shouldn't have to point out rank hypocrisy for you...that's what SHAME is for...

But yes, it's an improvement.

[Sherman A1]

221. BUZZ

OFF

[CTLawGuy]

186. Wouldn't it be a better use of your time

to go after union members who voted for Bush (say in Indiana, West Virginia and Ohio) and for other politicians who promote "free trade" than to harass individual consumers on this board?

[Romulox]

196. Yeah, this is a discussion board. Find a new passtime if your feelings are easily hurt.

:hi:

[demwing]

226. Actually, if harassing others--or getting harassed--is considered a pastime

then I agree. New pastimes are needed all around.

[Romulox]

239. Expressing my opinion is not harassment, even if you strongly disagree with it.

:hi:

[demwing]

250. Didn't say it was

did I? :)

[Romulox]

283. Ok. Well, *if* you were to suggest such a thing, it would be nonsense.

:hi:

[CTLawGuy]

300. Expressing your "opinion" is an understatement

you are calling people anti-labor because they buy foreign cars, which is utterly ridiculous. Furthermore, it goes beyond "expressing your opinion" into character assassination.


I for one cannot afford a car that has low gas mileage and/or is unreliable, so whether it is American or Japanese is not high on my priority list. If such a car that meets my standards is American, I will drive it, but if a foreign car meets those needs, I will drive that.

[Romulox]

313. Get over it. Sheesh. A lawyer with thin skin = ut oh. nt

[CTLawGuy]

317. Hey, it doesn't bother me, I'm just expressing my opinion

I'm not the one trying to shame people into purchasing my product... such people should not call others "thin-skinned." Sounds like projection.

[Romulox]

321. In an over-emotional way that makes it sound like your feelings are wounded. nt

[CTLawGuy]

328. no

just annoyed at assinine behavior.

[divideandconquer]

12. What if your Toyota was built with slave labor?

"Low-wage temporary workers make up one-third of Toyota’s Prius assembly-line workers, mostly in the auto-parts supply chain. They are signed to contracts for periods as short as four months, and are paid only 60 percent of a full-time employee’s wage.

Parts plants run by subcontractors advertise standard, nine-hour, five-day-a-week jobs. But according to the NLC, “the typical shift was 15 to 16.5 hours a day, from 8:30 a.m. to 11:30 p.m. or 1:00 a.m.”

In 2002, Kenichi Uchino, 30, died while working at the “green” Tsutsumi plant that assembles the Prius. During the 13th hour of a routine 14-hour day, Uchino collapsed on the shop floor of the internationally lauded “sustainable” factory, which uses sulfur-oxide-eating paint and boasts 5 percent emissions reductions. A Japanese court ruled that Uchino’s death was caused by exhaustion from overwork.

His wife, Hiroko Uchino, described a grueling lifestyle that included an 85-hour workweek prior to his death. The NLC published his time cards, which reveal that he was “putting in 106.5 to 155 hours of overtime … in the 30 days leading up to his death.”"
--------------=====
<http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/3796/the_dark_side_of_the_toyota_prius>

Wanna bet Yaris are built similarly?

[Sherman A1]

77. You have proof that it was?

If so please feel free to provide it.

[treestar]

201. How are these people going to get better working conditions if you just

shut down the plant? Aren't they going to be even worse off?

The Chinese are very far away and it is easy to discount them entirely and expect them to live as peasants for all eternity.

[spoony]

289. What twisted logic: We MUST buy cheap crap that hurts our economy

and because that will make them care for their workers more!

What of our workers? Oh that's right, you don't much care for them.

[JANdad]

13. Your 2 to 3 gallons better than a comparable American Made car

really changes my whole outlook on life! Thanks so much for supporting American companies!

[divideandconquer]

17. "Union if it's convenient!"

The Japanese auto industry has worked hand in glove with the Republicans to destroy our middle class.

[reggie the dog]

93. no, they simply make better, longer lasting cars which consume

less gas than American made cars. Plus I challenge you to find a US made car which gets 60 mpg like my French made Peugeot 206 does.

[blue_onyx]

97. The US automakers

have vehicles which get about the same or better mpg as the foreign competition.

Chevy Malibu: 26 (22/33)
Toyota Camry: 26 (22/32)
Honda Accord: 25 (22/31)

[reggie the dog]

100. Peugeot 206 or 207 diesel 60 mpg

Dacia Logan (Romanian made) diesel station wagon 55 mpg (this would pass for a mid sized car in the USA)
I could go on and on, these are not hybrid cars, Hell Ford makes a KA which gets 45 to 50 to the gallon but they do not sell it in the US market.

[blue_onyx]

103. I was referring to the first part of your statement

where you say Japanese vehicles "consume less gas than American made cars."

[Sherman A1]

105. Mine does, which was my point in buying it

but that seems lost on some here.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

116. Peugeot 206 is a really fun car.

Had one of those as a rental once on a drive across England with some friends. Great handling. Crap interior, though. I've never been in a French car that has a decent interior except the Renault Vel Satis, and even that had nasty plasticky bits.

[demwing]

224. I have a 1994 Honda Accord. 225k miles on the motor & still gets 31 mpg city

Runs like dream, easy to fix. Will probably last me forever if I maintain it regularly.

Show me an American car that can match it...

[divideandconquer]

271. Heres a 446k miles Dodge Neon R/T, bet it beats your car gas mileage as well

25 CITY AND 37 HIGHWAY EPA mpg

<http://www.allpar.com/cotm/2009/neon.html>

[demwing]

275. does not beat my MPG city, but really, the Neon?

you must be kidding.

Everything I've heard about the Neon is that its a poorly designed, poorly engineered, auto that Dodge stopped producing in 2005 because it sucked. My guess is that the 446k miles on the car have seen numerous repairs and rebuilds.

The only thing I've put into my Honda is a radiator, tires, brakes, and fluids. Oh yeah, I had top replace the trunk latch once.

[divideandconquer]

286. I'VE PERSONALLY SEEN SEVERAL NEONS OVER 200K MILES

DODGE QUIT PRODUCING IT BECAUSE MERCEDES ONLY WANTED TO MAKE LARGE PROFITS. MERCEDES ALSO STUNTED THE PT CRUISER.

THE NEON WAS SO POORLY DESIGNED, IT HAS BEEN ONE OF THE GREATEST SHOWROOM STOCK RACERS EVER, HUMILIATING HONDA RACERS TO THIS DAY.

<http://www.allpar.com/neon/scca.html>

[demwing]

303. So in addition to poorly designed and poorly engineered

the Neon was unprofitable? Thanks for the info.

And the Neon is fast, you say? Could be, but speed is not one of the critical issues I care about. Guys, ask your women if they prefer fast of long lasting. :) By the way, you avoided my question about how many rebuilds were included on that 400k+, I wonder why?

And finally-yes, I can hear your writing just as well when you turn off the cap lock.

[Shell Beau]

307. My mom and grandmother had terrible experiences with their Dodge cars.

I will never ever own a Dodge.

My experience (and yes it is limited) is that Honda's are the most reliable vehicles you can get for your buck. I love love love Hondas strictly for the reliability. I have never met anyone who owned a Honda that wouldn't purchase one again. I am sure someone here will tell me otherwise, but I know several people who wouldn't buy another Dodge.

[arikara]

278. I just retired my 86 Sunbird a couple months ago

It gave me 22 years.

[demwing]

281. about 15-20 mpg city, right?

there are many cars that can last, or might get good mileage, but Honda Accords are superior autos, overall.

[Sherman A1]

331. My Yaris gets

38 + MPG. (41+ on the highway) Now let's consider the impact on the environment over the long haul as well as the cost savings on the commute?

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. 2 to 3 gallons??

:rofl:

[Sherman A1]

183. Yeah,

I am getting over 40 mpg on the highway (37+ in town) , which might make a difference in the whole foreign oil debate, but one suspects that is lost on those who seem not be looking at the whole chess board.

[Sherman A1]

79. And those American Companies did not provide the

vehicle with the best mileage. I looked for well over a year before buying the Yaris. And by the way my 98 Ranger sports parts from outside the US under the hood, so while it was assembled in Kansas City, MO, just exactly what is an "American" car?

[Kalyke]

19. Why do you sport a Union avatar, then?

If it's convenient?

:eyes:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

32. Ah, more bullying.

Way to win supporters. :eyes:

[demosincebirth]

59. Thats not bullying... he's just asking a question. Why a union avatar?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

109. Where was your computer manufactured? n/t

[Sherman A1]

181. Based upon the attitude

I guess they don't use a foreign made computer, perhaps they simply connect to the internet by mind meld?

[demosincebirth]

308. China I guess...but do I have a choice? I don't think so.

[Sherman A1]

82. Agreed

But whatever works for him

[Sherman A1]

81. Perhaps because I believe in Unions

but, I also believe in looking out for my own family as well. As I mentioned I looked for over a year before buying the Yaris (I wanted to buy an American Car, but wanted the best MPG for the commute, which "American Car Companies did not provide).
Drove Fords for 25 years (2 Pintos, Aerostar, 2 Contours, 2 Escorts) before that, still own a 98 Ranger (which was built with parts from outside the US) which I purchased because it fulfilled the need I had at the time of purchase.

So I will be happy to change my Avatar if that will make you happy..... Although I do think you are completely full of beans..

[NNN0LHI]

21. But for every American worker you help put out of a job ...

... that will be one less American who will be able to purchase whatever you make or use the services that you provide.

And if that ends up costing you your job some day the unemployment offices do all their business over the phone or Internet so it won't make any difference how many MPG's you get.

Will it?

You will just be out of a job with a high miles per gallon Yaris sitting in the driveway.

How do you come out ahead there?

Don

[DainBramaged]

88. HEAR HEAR

but NONE OF THEM give a shit, they got their's NOW.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[Cessna Invesco Palin]

252. :Sigh:

Well here we are again, back at the same point we always seem to get to in these discussions.

I SUPPORTED the auto company bailout. Hell, I supported even knowing the money would never be paid back, and knowing that your REPEATED claims that "it's just a loan!" were total bullshit.

But what I WILL NOT support, and what I will NEVER support, is your attitude towards people who disagree with you, or people who refuse to buy your crap. Calling people traitors is a shit way to win people to your cause.

[reggie the dog]

94. GM, FORD etc run on a short term profit model

they delocalize profitable factories to make more profit. They offer gas guzzling cars as opposed to many foreign made cars.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

159. I will inform Ohio of their independence

[treestar]

202. Somebody works to sell the Yaris here

And market and distribute it. You'd put these people out of jobs. Same difference. Jobs disappear and new ones appear all the time and have ever since the dawn of capitalism.

[NNN0LHI]

292. So lets lose several jobs to gain one?

Let me know how that works out for you when everyone you want to peddle whatever you sell things to is out of work.

Don

[alarimer]

223. GM is moving closing plants here and moving them overseas.

Almost 25% of their cars will soon be made in foreign companies as part of the recent restructuring. And the Ford Fusion is made in Mexico. I am sure there are others. Plenty of parts for other cars are also made in foreign countries. It is not as simple as saying "Buy American".

I do not think it is American consumers who are to blame for the state of the auto industry. Among other things, the lack of universal health care here compared to other countries (like Canada, where some "American" cars are made) adds a lot to the cost of each vehicle. The companies themselves are engaged in union busting. The unions have made concession after concession and gotten little in return.

[treestar]

269. And if the cars weren't cheaper, due to the cheaper labor, more

americans could not afford them anyway, they'd sell fewer, and that would impact on salespeople, perhaps the one job that could not be outsourced!

[Realityhack]

225. Sure becasue we all know there is no diffrence in quality

between US cars and say German cars right? And the Germans beat their workers daily and pay them minimum wage with forced unpaid overtime like Walmart right?

What percentage of the 'foreign' automobile was produced in the US? And what percentage of that 'domestic' vehicle is from outside the US?

'Buy American' almost destroyed our domestic automobile manufacturers once already. No need to repeat the process. They got lax with respect to quality and innovation when people just 'bought American' for the sake of it being domestic. All of a sudden they hit a tipping point where they were so far behind they got creamed.
A similar thing happened with SUVs because of import restrictions on trucks. The American manufacturers got addicted to easy competition free profits then got slammed when they had to tolerate vastly better products hitting the market.

[PeaceNikki]

76. Oh hooey. That toothpaste Walmart sells for $1 cheaper per tube is the same as the higher priced.

And paper towels, and toilet paper, and dog food and cat litter, and tampons. Walmart gets the SAME STUFF significantly cheaper because they buy in much higher volume.

Your argument is invalid.

[divideandconquer]

90. Much higher volume from China!

Higher contamination as well!

[Realityhack]

246. Not just volume.

Walmart has pressured several companies out of business entirely by demanding steeper and steeper discounts. And many of the brands ARE different.

But you are correct. It isn't just 'price over quality' shopping at Walmart. They do sell identical things less expensively (cost on price tag) than other companies.

Of course there are lots of other valid complaints about Walmart but that is a different thread.

[DainBramaged]

86. right you know quality......................

[dysfunctional press]

199. i did just fine with the american made cars i owned in the 70s, 80s and 90's...

which cars did you own that had all the problems?

[glen123098]

4. Just because its a foreign car doesn't mean it was made in a sweatshop.

I'm sure German cars are actually made with better labor practices than the ones built right here in America.

[Realityhack]

227. Not to mention the domestic facilities of 'foreign' manufacturers

and parts sourcing. etc. etc.

You raise a good point.

I think it is very VERY dangerous for American companies to try to compete on 'made in the USA' rather than on quality, features, etc.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

5. Where to begin with what's wrong with this post.

Did it ever occur to you "elitists" who constantly bash Walmart

Uh, I come from a town that used to be the tin plate capital of the world, highly industrial, heavily unionized. That all ended in the sixties. Wal-Mart moved in in the nineties and killed everything that was left of local retail and decent jobs. Shit, I guess that makes me an "eletist."

it was the very practice of buying foreign cars that began in earnest in the 80's that has led us to where we are now????

Where who is now? What are you talking about? What is your specific complaint?

It was your willful destruction of the middle class manufacturing base (who by and large supported the local mom and pop shops)

You know where I see the most American made cars when I go home? In the goddamn Wal-Mart parking lot.

Oh and btw...I shop Walmart probably three to four times per week...it's all you left me with...

Yeah, I'm crying for you. Apparently you've got plenty of time to type on your computer on your broadband internet connection in the middle of goddamn monday afternoon. Surely that's just like living in a third world country. And it's all my fault for buying a used 1991 non-American car.

[Romulox]

11. Wow. Maybe you could get Bruce Springsteen to write a song about it.

It could be about a bitter man who lost his job as a tin plater and went on to obsessively post anti-labor screeds on a Democratic website. Awesome!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

14. You really need to understand...

There's a difference between anti-labor posts and Romulox-is-a-jackass posts. The fact that you consider yourself the embodiment of the labor movement is YOUR problem. Not mine.

[Romulox]

65. So now your posts in random labor threads are about ME?

That's really odd, 'cause I read a lot of whining about YOU. Hard to understand what the tin plating tragedy has to do with ME. :hi:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

113. This isn't a labor thread.

It's a thread about how people who bought Asian cars in the 80s, when THIS was what America had on offer...



...have destroyed the country.

It really would behoove you to actually read OPs before you post your nonsense then run around claiming that your nonsense is the point of the thread.

[Romulox]

126. You seem to have a condition whereby you read every thread as a personal indictment

None of what you posted above appears anywhere but in your own reply to this thread. :silly:

[JANdad]

16. OK...ya wanna play

"Where who is now? What are you talking about? What is your specific complaint?"- Uh...no good jobs left Einstein...

"You know where I see the most American made cars when I go home? In the goddamn Wal-Mart parking lot."- No shit Sherlock...thats what we can now afford...

"middle of goddamn monday afternoon"- I work nights dipshit...6 PM to 6 AM...

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

26. Well...

Uh...no good jobs left Einstein...

Agreed. There fantasy that you can graduate high school and have an unskilled job requiring no higher education which gives you lifelong employment and benefits is over. That was never a sustainable model.

No shit Sherlock...thats what we can now afford...

What specific types of products are you talking about? You can get better, longer lasting clothes from goodwill and better tools from e-bay or a swap meet.

I work nights dipshit...6 PM to 6 AM...

Sorry, I didn't realise. Get some sleep.

[JANdad]

35. OK

"Agreed. There fantasy that you can graduate high school and have an unskilled job requiring no higher education which gives you lifelong employment and benefits is over. That was never a sustainable model." - BULLSHIT! It was and continues to be VERY sustainable! I am a high school graduate working for Cooper Tire & Rubber Co. (Union) and making damn good money as a supervisor (non-union position). It is the constant race to the bottom through republican greed that has killed the middle class!

[reggie the dog]

96. If I understand correctly the Japanes still work for the same company

for their entires lives, in general, and that the model is very sustainable.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

114. Yeah, the Japanese economy is just *great* right now.

:eyes:

[reggie the dog]

174. how is it worse than the US economy?

Plus the Japanese have hardly delocalized production at all. They produce many goods in Japan for sale in Japan.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

43. Delete.

Replied in the wrong place.

[treestar]

203. You work, yet there are "no good jobs left."

[JANdad]

217. And I realize that I am one of the luckey few...

I unlike many am not blind to the fate of my brother...

[treestar]

219. Lucky few? Even now, 90% are working.

If unemployment is 10%, the working are not the "lucky few."

We do feel for that 10% and think there should be a safety net. Tax the rich for it. But there's no point in demanding that the Chinese and Indians stay peasants for eternity so that Americans should always get the best jobs at all times. How do we expect the world to agree to that?

[DoctorMyEyes]

7. Had a Ford built in Mexico

and a Mazda built in Michigan.

And anyway - you're confusing "Buy American" with "Don't buy shit from irresponsible predatory low wage paying raping pillagers."

[Realityhack]

228. +1 Very good points. n/t

[demosincebirth]

311. You mean Mazda " assembled" in Mich.

[Romulox]

9. DU has taught me that the only labor issue that matters is H1B visas.

Everything else is whining.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

15. Well, that's what happens when you've got myopic xenophobia. n/t

[Romulox]

63. If this post made more sense, I'd work harder at a rejoinder...

Subject? Object? Oops! :silly:

[dysfunctional press]

200. when you don't use the sarcasm smilie...

lots of people can't recognize it.

[treestar]

264. Those are miniscule compared to the number outsourced overseas

At least they are spending their earnings in the U.S. If someone is going to "take a job from an American" (questionable with H visas but let's accept it for now) better they are here at least employing real estate agents, car salespeople and so on here.

They by law have to be paid the prevailing wage (that they are paid less is one of the lies perpetrated by the xenophobes) but even if they were paid less, it would not be so much less as in China/India/wherever else.

[mitchum]

10. I never drive my American-made car to the hellhole that is Wal Mart

[Critters2]

238. +1 nt

[Kalyke]

18. I never shop at Walmart and I don't own foreign cars.

I'm perfect.

:evilgrin:

[JANdad]

20. Ok...Touche...

LOL

[treestar]

207. Me too.

I got an American car because when I owned a foreign one, it took ages to get it repaired whenever it broke down. Or at least their excuse was that they had to get the parts from Japan. Wondering how true that was, now.

[damntexdem]

22. What is a foreign car?

A dodge built in Canada?

A Toyota or Nissan built in the U.S.?

[CTD]

23. All of the automakers (foreign and domestic) use components from many of the same companies

Those suppliers are located all over the world, some in the US.

Final assembly jobs are the jobs directly associated with the automakers.

And all of the major foreign car companies have final assembly plants in the US employing American workers.

Every Accord and Camry sold in this country was made by Americans.

Ironically, most of the main line "American" cars are assembled by Canadians.

[blue_onyx]

33. You have proof...

that "most of the main line "American" cars are assembled by Canadians?"

[CTD]

57. Just follow the link

List of vehicles with final assembly in Canada- http://carbuyersguide.ca/car-facts/tips-and-trends/vehicles-built-in-canada.htm

And the list of cars with significant Canadian content, either final assembly or components- http://supercarshow.com/CAW-UAW-BuiltVehicles/main.html

Even the new Camaro is built in Canada.

[blue_onyx]

92. Those aren't vehicles built in Canada

For example, when you click on Buick, all three Buicks show up. None of the Buick are built in Canada.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

160. I have been to the factory, their made in Oshawa Ontario

[blue_onyx]

193. Nope

LaCrosse: Kansas
Enclave: Delta Township, Michigan
Lucerne: Detroit

The the LaCrosse use to be made in Canada but it's not anymore. The other two were never produced in Canada.

[divideandconquer]

34. But the Accord's and Camry's are subsidized by the slave labor cars

What happens when China starts flooding the market with even cheaper or better cars? Japanese cars were the beginning of the end of the American middle class. It doesn't matter how good they are if you end up sleeping in them.

[JANdad]

36. +1

"Japanese cars were the beginning of the end of the American middle class"

So true and why so many refuse to see this is beyond me...

[SOS]

206. Many factors destroyed the middle class

Wages have not risen since 1970.
Taxation has shifted from the wealthy and corporations to the middle class.
Worst income disparity in history.
Middle class expenses like housing, college education and health insurance have skyrocketed.
Predatory banks.
Crooked home loans.
Wal-Mart's destruction of the msrp retail model helped end American manufacturing.
The destruction of unions, notably Patco in 1981.
Crooked insurance companies that don't pay claims.
Staggering health care costs.
Bogus inflation indexing.
Lousy unemployment benefits.
Bankruptcy "reform".
The destruction of the meager social safety net.
Evil student loan practices which create indentured servants by the age of 22.
The 401 (K) scam. There are a dozen undisclosed fees on that account.
The Social Security overhaul of 1983. Massive payroll deduction for middle class, free ride for the rich.
Capital gains tax cap at 15%.
Giant corporations destroying the small business.
Corporate mergers ripping off pensions.
Hedge funds loading American companies with debt while they rip off billions in fees.
Bank fees.
NAFTA
Global capital, immobile labor.
Corruption of regulatory agencies like the FDA and SEC.
27% credit card interest.
Offshoring of American manufacturing.
Offshore tax evasion by the rich.
Wall Street deregulation.
etc

Corporate America, in collusion with Congress, destroyed the middle class.
Toyota did take market share from US car companies, but the nightmare that besieges the average American worker today was created right here on Wall Street.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

39. Hey,

If you're worried about China making better cars than us, maybe we should fucking try to make better cars first, eh? This fucking persecution complex is getting annoying. The US has had undisputed economic hegemony over the entire planet for fifty years, and now people are whining because people in developing countries would like to have jobs that afford them the luxury of indoor plumbing.

And furthermore, Japanese cars were not the end of the American middle class. Any idiot who spouts this nonsense has obviously never traveled beyond the borders of this country.

[divideandconquer]

47. I'm worried about competing against slave labor and unfair trade practices

Wall Street's finger on the scales doesn't help either. The less union jobs, the weaker the middle class, it really is that simple.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

60. Yes, it's very easy to call everything that happens in China "slave labor."

It helps when you don't want to deal with the actual issues.

[Romulox]

67. Well, China *IS* an authoritarian state that uses forced labor, but who's counting?

:hi:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

106. Yes, I know, and they're asians as well which means that they're bad.

You've made your opinion quite clear on that point, time and time again.

[Romulox]

127. So...resorting to unhinged accusations now, huh?

You've lost it, bub. :silly:

[treestar]

209. Their working at all is an offense against Americans

:sarcasm:

[Romulox]

211. I propose a symposium consisting of treestar, RB Latexla and this Palin guy

You three could discuss your disdain for domestic workers at length over bizarre, over-emotive outbursts.

Think about it!

[treestar]

267. Domestic workers have to compete

That's a reality. They need to unionize with nonAmericans to get the wage base up for everybody.

You're the one who'd shoot them in the foot. You only think you are helping. Americans are never going to spend extra money just to buy American. And the Chinese wouldn't do it either.

[Romulox]

290. Save it for the Symposium! Pearls before swine, etc. etc.! nt

[divideandconquer]

83. What about Toyota's well documented use of "guest" workers?

How do you excuse that?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

107. What about it? n/t

[divideandconquer]

135. So you approve of this indentured servant policy? Yes or No?

So one less visit to the shop in 5 years is worth exploiting virtual slave labor? No wonder you aren't pro-union.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

164. Well, that would necessitate my agreeing with your basic premise, which I don't.

But then there are plenty of people here who've never had any dealings with Chinese manufacturers who claim to be experts on what goes on in China. Same old shit.

[treestar]

259. Odd name, because you're letting them do it

"slave labor" needs to be unionized. Otherwise it's a divide and conquer, Americans against them. When you should all be going up against the rich who do the hiring and try to get the price of labor so low.

It's never going to be solved by trying to make two huge countries not exist for economic purposes. We're not going to have a separate economy from the rest of the world. If we did, we'd become poor. Like North Korea. What happens to countries with tightly sealed boundaries.

[Sherman A1]

179. Well Said!

There were lots of factors in play that have helped to ding the middle class, this was just one of them. The big 3 auto makers have dropped the ball on too many occasions along the way to lay all the blame at the doorstep of Japanese, Italian, German or other auto makers.

[divideandconquer]

296. When the middle class switched from being workers to being consumers

When the middle class switched from being workers to being consumers and investors that's when they signed their death warrant and it's been down hill ever since. BTW, Germans and Italians aren't really a threat so far as they aren't union busting over here or abusing "guest" workers over there.

[reggie the dog]

98. Japan does not have slave labor

[divideandconquer]

257. They have "guest workers" from China and take their passports

Toyota Troubling Supply Chain

People in Toyota City, home of Toyota’s corporate headquarters and seven sprawling plants, like to say that “All roads lead to Toyota.” The adage is based in cartographic reality as well as the fact that Toyota’s own assembly facilities are constantly fed parts by the city’s robust network of car-related facilities. The more than 400 suppliers in the area, employing an estimated 280,000-plus workers, allow Toyota even greater flexibility and cost reduction. Employment in these subcontractor plants is far more unstable and, according to many workers interviewed by National Labor Committee researchers, conditions are much tougher. (The workers interviewed all insisted on anonymity, in most cases asking that not even the name of their subcontract company be mentioned.) "In its zeal to “increase productivity,” Toyota presses its suppliers to produce more and more for less and less money. When there is a downturn in auto sales, the parts plants are the first to feel the pinch – and since a high percentage the workers at Toyota’s subcontract plants are temps, they are easily shed. Extensive, obligatory overtime is the rule, and it is very common for workers not to be paid correctly. For example, in one plant, workers interviewed normally worked 97-hour-weeks, typically receiving only one or two days off a month and no paid holidays. Some workers told investigators that their employers failed to pay what was owed.

Toyota’s supplier plants also make extensive use of guest or “trainee” workers – under conditions that in some respects qualify as human trafficking: The workers, most of whom come from China and Vietnam, pay manpower agencies in their home countries as much as $8,000 to $10,000 for a two- or three-year contract.

Toyota’s website touts its commitment to diversity, calling it: “one of our top ten business initiatives, and our goal is to continue to foster best practices in every aspect of our business, including employment, dealers, procurement, communications and advertising, and philanthropy.”

Despite this commitment, Toyota’s foreign workers in Japan are second-class citizens. On arrival the guest workers’ passports are confiscated. During the first year as “trainees,” they are not covered by Japan’s labor or minimum wage laws. They work alongside Japanese workers, putting in the same long hours, but often earning less than half the minimum wage – as little as $2.76 an hour, or $479 a month. As guest workers, they are required to remain with the same employer – no matter how bad the working conditions – and to live in the company housing assigned to them – even though some are charged twice what their Japanese colleagues pay for comparable accommodations. Any worker who tries to change jobs, or who complains about conditions may be forcibly deported. By the time food, housing, and taxes are deducted, some guest workers end up earning less than $600 for an entire year, according to several advocacy organizations and unions that work with subcontract plant temp and guest workers."

<http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=15182>

[reggie the dog]

298. that is horrible

[treestar]

266. The U.S. is not completely dependent on one industry

Now we make computer chips and tons of technology that didn't exist in the 80s.

[sentelle]

304. really?

Why do my CPU's in my PC's say "Made in Malaysia", "Made in Thailand", "Made in the Phillipines"?
Why does my Motherboard say "Made in Taiwan"?

are they "made" here, or just "designed" here. There is a difference.

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. I stuck with buying only American cars until 2001 when I finally bought a Honda

We went through 20+ years of one crappy American car after another. Got tired of being a good American driving a piece of shit vehicle. So we bought a Honda for me and a Toyota for him and we haven't looked back.

We hear the latest American cars are better and we may try one next time we buy a new car.

And neither of us ever steps foot in a WalMart.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

27. The Ford Focus is quite a good car.

I'd buy one if I had the money. The handling is decent and for once an American car company has built a decent interior. I looked into buying an older Contour, but read far too many reviews which indicated that the dashboard cracked.

[proud2BlibKansan]

78. I like the Hybrid

[backwoodsbob]

72. wierd

I've driven GM vehicles my whole life and have yet to get a *piece of shit* from them.My 2005 Grand Am has a *made in Lansing* sticker in the back passenger window.

Guess I've been lucky for almost 30 straight years?Oh and the wife drives a 2007 Impala.Awesome riding car

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. 93 Blazer - major piece of shit

89(?) Lumina - lesser piece of shit

86 Caravan - huge piece of shit

Those are the last 3 we owned. Blazer did us in. I could write a book on it.

We will consider Ford. Not GM unless they improve dramatically.

[Fumesucker]

25. And what was happening with domestic cars in the 80's?

They were unreliable and inefficient pieces of shit for the most part.

Absolutely *not* the fault of the workers or the engineers but rather it was the fault of MANAGEMENT..

That's who your beef is with, the management that ruined the domestic auto makers' reputations by using the customer as the quality control checkpoint.

Get burned on a purchase as major as car, the second most expensive thing most people will ever buy after their home, and you don't give the organization that burned you another chance.

Screw me once shame on you, screw me twice shame on me.

You want to take your anger out on the people that the greedhead managers screwed for not letting the greedheads screw them again.

[JANdad]

41. I challenge you to find

a Japanese car made in the eighties that is STILL on the road today.

"They were unreliable and inefficient pieces of shit for the most part"

I can on any given day find an American made car from the 80's still on the roads...

[Fumesucker]

58. Eh, I'm driving a 92 Mitsubishi Trooper right now..

It runs fine despite the fact I use it as a tractor here on our property from time to time, towing good sized logs out of our woods to be cut and split and pulling a thousand pound drag to level out our gravel driveway. I don't drive it much because I bicycle most of the time nowadays but everything on it but the AC works, I haven't bothered to fix that because I'd have to change it all over to the new freon.

I was there and driving in the 80's, the 70's and the 60's, I watched domestic cars turn from quality to crap some time in the mid 70's.

Under my carport right now is an 84 F150 that I have to put another engine in, the interior plastic is turning into dust, you can scratch huge gouges easily with your fingernails, I've seen the same thing with a lot of other domestic cars from that era.

I've been driving old beaters and doing my own maintenance for most of my over forty year driving history, I have a better idea than most of what cars are good and what are not. Hell, I bought one of the original Subaru 4WD station wagons for $50, drove it for 75,000 miles and sold it for $550.

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. 87 Toyota sitting in the driveway next door

Runs like a top.

[Realityhack]

230. Are you high?

You don't think you can find an 8X Toyota on the road today?

Never mind the fact that foreign != Japanese

And do you seriously want to start an argument over wither domestic cars in the 80s were up to par with many of the overseas brands?

[conflictgirl]

30. My Toyota Camry is actually MORE American than a Chevy Aveo

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0709

Yeah, for real. A Chevy Aveo is built in Korea with ONE PERCENT American parts. But because it has that GM label on it, you'd give it a pass as an "American" car if you were to pass it in a parking lot. Meanwhile, my Toyota Camry that I just bought 3 months ago after a lifetime of owning exclusively American cars actually ranks #1 on the cars.com list of cars that has the greatest amount of American components, and it was actually assembled in the USA.

My father worked for GM, until they forced him into early retirement at age 60. Countless members of my family of multiple generations have given their working lives to GM. My entire community was based around GM. GM closed their plants here - NOT because of people who bought foreign cars, but to move their plants to Mexico so they could make higher profits. With the skeleton crews remaining in the area working for GM, they have gotten rid of the majority of the union workers and replaced them with long-term contract workers with no benefits making $15 an hour. I used to defend the UAW and the "Buy American" viewpoint to anyone who would listen. Now i just feel like a great big sucker for having done so. I spit in the face of GM. They fucked over my entire community and countless other communities like mine in the midwest. We have good reason to be bitter.

It wasn't JUST the foreign car buyers who created this business climate we have today. It was the endless profit mentality that businesses began to adopt. It used to be okay if businesses had some years that didn't do as well; now shareholders demand ever increasing returns every year and if they don't see them, they expect whatever it takes - whether it's cutting corners in production (resulting in inferior products), laying off people (decimating entire towns like mine), moving operations to cheaper locations like Mexico or China. Don't blame JUST the foreign car buyers. Blame the unsustainable increased profit at any cost shareholders as well.

[blue_onyx]

37. Not a good comparsion

The Aveo is a subcompact and the Camry is a mid-size. NO subcompacts are currently made in the US because of the cost. GM will soon build the Aveo replacement, the Chevy Spark, in Michigan (as a concession to the unions, not because it's a good business decision).

[divideandconquer]

42. I do blame foreign car buyers, your arguments seem petty in the big scheme of things

You voted for the Republican/ slave labor side, it all adds up. What goes around, comes around.

[Realityhack]

231. Wait... You blame HIM...

for buying a car that ranked highest in terms of American parts and was assembled in the US?

And accuse him of being Republican? How the hell does that work?

[divideandconquer]

254. Republicans are anti union and pro slave labor, that's how that works

[Realityhack]

277. And you are accusing the other poster of being republican?

Or you are accusing him of being 'pro-slave labor' and anti-union and therefore being automatically republican (in your world)?

[divideandconquer]

44. The Camry's size competitors are high domestic content Malibus and Sebrings

No one builds itty bitty cars in the US because they haven't been able sell them in volume. BTW, the Sebring sedan tied the Altima in JD Power initial quality for midsize sedans.
<http://blogs.automotive.com/6523357/opinion/chrysler-sebring-jeep-wrangler-among-top-five-most-improved-per-jd-power/index.html>

[Romulox]

151. My McDonald's side salad is actually MORE nutricious than your cheesecake from the vegetarian place.

:shrug:

[bobbolink]

31. With cars it isn't that simple, and I would go more into detail, but I get that you came here

to harangue and guilt people, so have at it.

I'm sure it will win you a lot of adherents. :eyes:

[JANdad]

45. What?

Call me stupid but I have no idea what you are saying?

[bobbolink]

51. Do you want to know? Or are you just here to bash others?

Are you open to hearing facts counter to your assertions?

[flvegan]

38. It's like cursing the H2/big SUV while eating a hamburger.

:popcorn:

BTW, I bought my foreign car used. The only one that made a profit from me is the local car dealer.

More :popcorn:

[cherokeeprogressive]

40. Ever wonder how many "Mom and Pop" stores Sears, JC Penny, and KMart or stores like them

put out of business? Was there outrage then? Did people denigrate their employees or patrons?

[JANdad]

49. Nope...

In fact they loved them from what I remember...

[johnaries]

46. First of all, most "foreign" cars are made in America. Secondly,

don't blame me because American car companies made shitty cars. Where did "planned obsolescence" originate? I have owned 3 American cars in my lifetime. The first was built in 66 and was a great car. The other 2 were absolute pieces of shit.

Maybe now they'll start making better cars.

[JANdad]

50. See post #41

[johnaries]

52. I see Toyotas and Hondas from the 80's all the time. My aunt drives

one. I see several in the parking lot at work every day. I suspect you are either blind or have selective vision.

[divideandconquer]

55. They rusted apart in the North, Toyota still has rust problems on their trucks

[dana_b]

53. my daughter's '87 Corolla runs great

she bought it used a couple of years ago.

[divideandconquer]

54. Most foreign cars aren't built in the US, that's not true

all VW's, Honda Fits, Honda Insights, all Scions, Yaris, Prius, all Mercedes sedans, all Infinitis, Sentras, Versas,Nissan z cars, almost all Acura cars, almost all Lexus cars, Mitsubishi Lancers, Matrix's, all Suzuki's, all Audi's, almost all BMW's, all Volvos and SAAB's, all built outside the US.

[demosincebirth]

62. Foreign cars are assembled in American, not made here. The are also non-union and under pay...

their workers

[spoony]

169. So many lies packed in one little post. Congrats. nt

[johnaries]

236. Care to elaborate? Any proof or evidence?

[spoony]

284. See: the other capable responses to your silly assertions in this subthread.

There you go. You're welcome.

[treestar]

204. True, amazing how DU hates "the corporations"

Except the ones that make cars.

And the other companies that tried to fleece us all with their planned obsolescence.

[johnaries]

233. And completely ignore all the outsourcing those car companies

have done.

[spoony]

287. So what this is really about is whatever chip I can see on your shoulder

That makes you utterly dismissive of US labour.

[PSzymeczek]

56. I hate Wal-Mart,

and I love my Saturn.

[Codeine]

61. The "foriegn" part doesn't matter

it's whether or not it was built with unionized American labor. My Corolla was built in California by UAW workers in a union plant.

Sadly 2009 is the last model year of which that is true. :(

[Unvanguard]

64. Pro-labor, but not mindlessly (and counterproductively) nationalist.

So? Is there something wrong with that?

[johnaries]

66. Best post in the thread. nt

[Realityhack]

229. +1 n/t

[Romulox]

68. Me too. I'm a "Let them eat cake!" labor activist.

No need to get too worked up about all this, after all!

[Unvanguard]

69. That's not what I said. I'll happily act to support working people.

But that has nothing whatsoever to do with buying into nationalist, protectionist nonsense like "Buy American."

Avoid companies that abuse or exploit their workers? Of course. Avoid companies that happen to be headquartered in other countries? I'll pass. Trade is good. Exploitation is bad. It isn't that complicated.

[Romulox]

70. If there is no obligation (as a progressive, no less,) to support domestic workers,

then why should domestic workers be obligated to support your retirement or medical care? Why shouldn't my wife be able to direct her Social Security payments to the support of her relatives overseas?

I've never heard any good answers to questions like these, and I'm fairly sure you won't be able to provide them, either. Like all the others who claim to "care for all the workers of the world the same," your position is the exact logical equivalent of "I don't feel I have any special obligation to my neighbor,"--a position I doubt you'd express face-to-face in your community.

[petronius]

71. He (or she) didn't say there was no obligation, he said there was no obligation to apply

a 100%, dealbreaker, my-way-or-the-highway, no-exceptions-whatsoever litmus test in that support.

[Romulox]

73. He said that "Buy American" is "nationalist, protectionist nonsense."

That's quite a bit stronger of a statement than what you've posted, I think you can admit. One wonders what the poster feels is the basis for our society if he has no special obligation to help his fellows? This "I care for all workers" sentiment is expressed as a progressive ideology, but amounts to exactly the same as the most extreme conservative ideology--apathy toward the interests of American workers.

[petronius]

75. I read what he posted, and I interpreted as I described it

There are posters in this thread who appear to be advocating the all-or-nothing interpretation of Buy American that I characterized, which is what the poster (and I agree) called nonsense...

[Romulox]

125. Then you read what you wanted to hear, not what he wrote.

:shrug:

[petronius]

134. Not at all. I read the thread, and I grasped the context.

If anyone is applying wishful interpretation it's you, with your 'no obligation' leap... :shrug:

[Romulox]

140. From the poster in question: "I have no special duty to those in close physical proximity to me."

"As a human being, however, concerned with how I allocate my personal resources, I have no special duty to those in close physical proximity to me."

Shoehorn that into some middle-the-road statement based on context (which apparently does not include the above comment!) however you will. :shrug:

[petronius]

147. No shoehorn required. The other poster has clearly rejected the idea,

which pervades this thread, that buying American is the sine qua non of supporting domestic workers. You yourself made the leap that not always buying American is the equivalent of not supporting domestic workers (despite the poster laying out ways in which he prefers to provide support) which was my objection in the first place.

The quote you mention is consistent with all of this, although I personally prefer to spend locally where possible. However, it doesn't change my interpretation of the thread in the slightest.

[Romulox]

150. Nonsense. The post declaims any responsibility whatever.

You obviously need it to say something other than what it actually does to suit your own purposes.

At any rate, why the need to put your argument into someone else's mouth?

"You yourself made the leap that not always buying American is the equivalent of not supporting domestic workers"

That's not a leap, it's definitional.

[petronius]

155. That's the crux of it, isn't it? what you call definitional, I call a leap, and the

other poster calls nonsense, or whatever the word was. Although I prefer to buy local/domestic, I think he's more right than you are.

(You lost me on the whole needs and purposes bit, however.)

[Romulox]

205. Right, but your definition that is idiosyncratic. You can call lead "gold" all day, if you like.

But you'll run into difficulties at the bank.

[wickerwoman]

74. I support domestic worker's retirement and medical care with my taxes

and I'm happy to pay more for universal health care. Your wife should be able to do whatever she wants with her social security payments.

I don't feel I have an obligation to buy a bad product simply because of where and how it was produced. I'd prefer to invest in programs that support the workers, rather than subsidizing bad companies who make bad products out of a sense of national obligation.

That is not at all the same thing as "I don't owe my neighbor anything" and you know it.

[Romulox]

142. As do I. But why. If we're all mercenaries as to economic matters, why any safety net at all?

I find that virtually nobody I've talked to that tries to straddle this line can even articulate their position. Why is that?

[wickerwoman]

157. Capitalism only works when the customer has a choice.

The more choices the customer has, the better capitalism works. The "benefit" of capitalism, and the reason we're not supposed to just pack the whole thing in and set up a kibbutz, is that numerous competing companies will supposedly create better products at cheaper prices and will be more innovative to try to stay ahead of the other guys.

This did not happen in Detroit in the 70s. What we got instead was the Ford Pinto, the Gremlin, resistance to mandatory airbags, planned obsolescence, resistance to better gas mileage, regular attempts at union busting and pension raiding. And when the Japanese came along and started producing cheaper cars with high safety ratings and better gas mileage, American automakers spent twenty years appealing to nationalism instead of cleaning up their act.

It's not "mercenary" for a customer to take their money elsewhere when they aren't getting what they want from one company. It's capitalism. "Buy American" is both anti-capitalistic and anti-American. What it really says is "buy whatever shit we put in front of you because supporting GM = supporting the workers" even though GM management is historically anti-union and they ran their own company into the ground through incompetence. Do you know what GM is going to do with the money they make from the American car you just bought? They're going to study off-shoring with it.

Again, I am happy to pay to support the workers by paying taxes for social security, medicare, medicaid, universal health care, welfare, job retraining, small business loans, subsidized housing etc. because it's the decent thing to do and because my neighbor's well-being benefits me in obvious ways. And I'm happy to write my congresscritters to regulate the auto industry, to support the unions as they struggle to hold on to their benefits (which are being threatened by *managers* not by middle-class Americans driving Camrys) and to reduce trade imbalances.

What I won't do is give my money to a poorly managed company with a dubious history of labor relations and trust that they will trickle it down to the workers (when they just stripped health benefits from 100,000 employees) and I certainly won't do it in exchange for a very expensive product when the company's record on safety, durability and environmental friendliness is substandard.

[Romulox]

210. This doesn't answer the question in the least. I asked if we are mercenaries at the store

why is it wrong for us to be mercenaries at tax time?

Your argument is what's known as a deflection which doesn't even attempt to answer the above. But then, I've never received a serious answer to the above question from someone who professes your "free trade" ideology

[wickerwoman]

251. Paragraph 3

"It's not "mercenary" for a customer to take their money elsewhere when they aren't getting what they want from one company."

I don't accept that we are "mercenaries" at the store for spending our money on the best product available. We are capitalists.

Paragraph 4

"I am happy to pay to support the workers by paying taxes for social security, medicare, medicaid, universal health care, welfare, job retraining, small business loans, subsidized housing etc. *because it's the decent thing to do and because my neighbor's well-being benefits me in obvious ways*."

Your argument is what's known as *ignoring the answers you don't want to hear* and asking the same question over and over until the respondent gets bored of answering it.

Mission accomplished.

Just because you're not getting the answer you want, doesn't mean that the question isn't being addressed.

[Romulox]

294. So quibble with my adjective. But you still haven't answered the question.

Why is it "OK" to disregard the needs of my neighbor when shopping, but not when voting? The argument that shopping is "not political" is circular.

[wickerwoman]

302. So do you shop at Walmart because your neighbor needs that $7.25 an hour?

Do you buy a new TV instead of repairing the old one because it's your civic duty to spend as much money as possible to keep people employed? I must have missed that part of the Bill of Rights... the right to have your product bought regardless of whether or not it fits the needs of the consumer.

Obviously shopping is political. And the consumer is allowed to consider many things in the purchase including the company's labor relations, environmental policy, animal cruelty, safety record, dependability record as well as the price and features of the product.

What you're saying when you say "Buy American" is don't consider any of those things or their long term political ramifications. Even when an American company produces a product that does not meet your ethical, quality or feature requirements you should buy it anyway, simply because it was made in America.

I say that's bullpucky. I would buy organic, cage-free chicken from Canada before I would buy it from Tyson. The Canadian chicken meets my ethical requirements and Tyson doesn't. And via the magic of capitalism (which America is supposed to hold so dear), if enough people buy the Canadian chicken, it will put pressure on Tyson to clean up its act. Telling everyone to buy Tyson because it's American just reinforces to Tyson that it doesn't need to change anything because people will buy their products regardless of how ethically they are produced or what the quality or price is.

The role and responsibility of the consumer and the citizen do not completely overlap. The consumer has the right to choose the best product, thereby pressuring competitors to improve. The citizen has a responsibility to provide for the basic needs of his/her neighbors because when those needs are not met, society does not function.

[Romulox]

312. So you ultimately have no answer...

there is no distinction between "political" and "economic" behavior. If you don't support American workers, just own it. All the verbage in the world won't reconcile the irreconcilable.

[wickerwoman]

315. Paragraph 2

"Obviously shopping is political."

If you're too lazy to read what I wrote, just own it. Sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "nah, nah, nah you have no answer" is frankly undignified.

[Romulox]

322. By ppg 5 you're back to: "The ... responsibily of the consumer and citizen...do not...overlap."

"The role and responsibility of the consumer and the citizen do not completely overlap. The consumer has the right to choose the best product, thereby pressuring competitors to improve. The citizen has a responsibility to provide for the basic needs of his/her neighbors because when those needs are not met, society does not function."

This is an assertion. I'm asking for any sort of moral, logical, (or even ideologically consistent) reason for why this should be so. Your minor concession statement, "(o)bviously shopping is political," contradicts your overall thesis, but you haven't done any work to reconcile the two.

I'm beginning to think that you either don't understand the question, or simply don't have an answer. I appreciate your time, but your snark and repetition is a poor substitute for a reasoned response.

[divideandconquer]

297. You think American style capitalism works?

It works for billionaires but not the working class. Where have you been the last decade or so?

[wickerwoman]

301. No, I think real capitalism tempered with socialism works better than any of the alternatives.

American-style capitalism is just corporatism in disguise and I agree that it's an abject failure.

"Too big to fail" companies like the big automakers are not "capitalist". They consider themselves immune to competition and therefore see no need to innovate or to create products that their customers actually want to buy. And then when competition comes along in the form of foreign auto-makers, they expect us to be loyal to them "as Americans" at the same time they are shipping all the jobs overseas.

Sorry, I support the workers, but investing a huge amount of money in a substandard product and trusting the management to do the right thing with it seems very counterproductive to me.

[divideandconquer]

330. Most of the foreign carmakers are heavily subsidized by their governments

The Ministry of International Trade in Japan, The state of Saxony in Germany, The French government, The state of Alabama and soon the Peoples Liberation Army.

[Unvanguard]

102. You're confusing different kinds of obligation.

Certainly government policy ought to be concerned with protecting its citizens first and foremost. The same is simply not (necessarily) true of what I do with the resources the government leaves to me. As a citizen, I have certain political obligations to my fellow citizens: these I satisfy in political ways, by being involved, by supporting candidates and policies that will help bring about social justice. As a human being, however, concerned with how I allocate my personal resources, I have no special duty to those in close physical proximity to me.

We are getting a bit sidetracked, however. My point is not even that "I value all the workers of the world the same." There is an even more fundamental problem with the "Buy American" rhetoric: it makes no economic sense. It is based on a conception of international trade that has been intellectually dead literally for centuries. Maximizing exports and minimizing imports is not a recipe for general prosperity--not for the world nor for Americans in particular. Defending labor rights is, but it's time we stopped confusing the two. Being pro-worker, pro-union, pro-minimum wage, pro-universal health care in no sense implies that we must think of international trade as a zero-sum game where buying a Japanese car counts as some kind of "loss" for the US as a whole.

[Romulox]

138. Our government is said to be a collective of individuals; your distinction makes little sense to me.

"You're confusing different kinds of obligation."

No, I'm asking those who make this counter-intuitive argument to justify the distinction between "economic" and "social" behaviors.

"As a human being, however, concerned with how I allocate my personal resources, I have no special duty to those in close physical proximity to me."

This is a morally repugnant point of view. And one that you have just stated on an "it just is" basis. There is no moral basis to argue that you'd put a man on the street in the "as a human being" then feel obligated to support the destitute fellow "in political ways".

[Unvanguard]

154. If it were, it would be no different from a gang.

Persons acting in an official capacity, as the representatives of the people, are not acting on the same terms as private individuals: that is why they can tax you without it being theft and imprison you without it being kidnapping. In turn, they (and all of us, insofar as we are political actors) have special obligations toward the people they represent: that's the social contract. I am part of a political society with other Americans; I am not part of a political society with people in other countries, except in very loose ways.

I'm not sure why you find universalism to be "morally repugnant." The argument here is pretty straightforward: the traits that make entities worthy of moral consideration--chiefly, the capacity to experience suffering--are hardly particular to Americans. Non-Americans have feelings, have legitimate interests, have lives and wants and desires, that count also.

As for your counter-example, with some qualification of somewhat loaded phrasing I think you'll find that not only is this morally plausible, but it is in fact typical practice. Few people take it upon themselves to personally invest their time and money to rescue as many of their fellow citizens from poverty as they can (even as we make some effort, sometimes), but plenty of us use our vote and our political voice to support better economic policies for the poor.

I'm still not sure, for the record, how "pro-worker"--even "pro-American worker"--leads to "Buy American." ("Pro-General Motors", maybe. But that's certainly not a very morally defensible loyalty.) Trade isn't theft.

[Romulox]

198. You are simply repeating your premise and calling it an argument.

I'm asking you to justify this distinction you posit. You are just restating that it exists.

You cannot define these two categories you posit, "political" and "social" (what you've previously called "behaving as a human being" (sic).) Which is simply because no real distinction exists--political behavior is social behavior by definition; economic behavior is political.

You might think that, if, as it appears, you cannot articulate this distinction, then it's not a strong basis for the argument that you have no responsibility to your fellow Americans "as a human being"(sic, above).

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Romulox]

123. I'm a white collar worker. Not all of us constantly post emotive auto-biographical crap.

:hi:

[Romulox]

124. PS Nice to see I've stuck in your craw!

You've now resorted to completely fabricated charges of racism. Somebodies feelings are hurt. :rofl:

[blue_onyx]

129. Not the first time I've seen this argument

Just last week, a Toyota fan called someone racist for no reason. It's craziness.

[Romulox]

137. I really hate to share autobiographical info, but suffice it to say his charge is nonsense

If he only knew me... :silly:

[spoony]

171. So you consider all US labour activists selfish racists

Unless they're phonies who only care about workers until it's time to put their money where their mouth is. Gotcha. You've made your position abundantly clear.

[DainBramaged]

84. It is a big conundrum here, people think japanese cars are American because they are assembled here

but we can't build a GM plant in japan or korea to build our cars there. That's a wonderful trade imbalance, but no one here gives a shit.

[divideandconquer]

131. Let's see how many of these improved Korean cars are let into Japan

Remember when KIA was bankrupt, the Korean government wouldn't let any of the US big 3 buy in?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

162. all of them, Hyundai offers a full product line in Japan

And Ford was an investor in KIA Motors long before their bankruptcy - they were outbid by Hyundai for control of the company.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

161. nobody gives a shit because that isn't how trade works

How many commercial airliners has Japan sold to the United States? I will tell you, 22 - is this a cause of outrage? Not particularly. It is just that the US is a strong exporter of commercial airplanes.

Japan is also a poor target for rage because the Japanese government has very strong "Buy American" measures of their own, it is the policy of the Japanese to mitigate their trade surplus with the United States - while most countries just don't care.

[treestar]

218. We would give a shit about that

I think that's a concern, but then, is there nothing else we sell them? It doesn't have to be the same thing.

The Swiss make clocks. The world buys them from the swiss, knowing they make good clocks. So why sell clocks to them? Yet they might buy what we specialize in.

You get raincoats in England. Naturally, they'd know raincoats. You might find companies from Seattle that are pretty good at that, too.

You buy leather goods in Mexico.

We make movies and apparently sheets and towels and shampoo. (One weird twist, I looked at "Aussie" shampoo I bought and it said it was made in the U.S. entirely of U.S. ingredients on the bottle, yet they found it best to market it as "aussie." Very odd.)

Cars are big ticket and we used to be the best, then the Japanese came along and did what many considered a better job, it being they sold the cars. We seem stuck on this. Maybe we can move on to something else.

We had invented most of the computer crap, so as far as I can tell, we should be the richest country. Everything is practically required to be computerized, whether necessary or not.

[Realityhack]

249. Great points. n/t

[HughMoran]

85. Don't shop at WalMart, only buy American cars

...not sure how that fits into your equation.

[Vickers]

95. I drove my built-in-Ohio Jeep to Target yesterday.

I bought a Swiss-made Sigg bottle and a Flaming Lips CD.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

111. The new one?

How was it? I'm a big fan of At War With the Mystics.

[Vickers]

115. I only listened to a couple of songs so far, and it hasn't grabbed me yet.

I'm also a big fan of At War With The Mystics (and the one right before that, Yoshimi).

Admittedly, Lips albums take a few days/weeks to grow on me, so I'll give it some time.

:thumbsup:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

117. I've heard the new one has something of a high "learning curve."

It's supposed to be far less pop-oriented than their last few outings. I never really got into Yoshimi, but At War With the Mystics and Soft Bulletin are two of my all-time fav albums.

[uppityperson]

99. Why do you go shopping 3-4 times a week?

[JANdad]

177. It usually goes like this:

Friday-Full blown grocery shopping
Saturday-SHIT...forgot the toothpaste, stop by on your way home from work honey...
Tuesday- Need milk for the kiddos...
Thursday- Need (insert school project need here)...

Or something like that.

[uppityperson]

213. that makes sense. Next to last "USAnian" car I bought was small Ford pickup in 80's

came to find out that it was difficult to fix/find parts for because it was made not in the USA. Then I bought a Ford Tempo yrs later that eventually caught fire one time too many and burnt itself up. Turns out that the previous 2 or 3 yrs had been recalled due to headlight switches shorting out, but not my yr yet. Now I run Toyotas and Prizms.

I don't like how Walmart treats their employees, and fortunately don't have one right in town but nearest is next to the Costco where I do my Major shopping. For "stuff", have a locally run "stuff" store so at least the transfer of money stays local. I see the appeal of the cheap Walmart stuff, but chose to not go there and try to not argue about it as we do the best we can.

[izzybeans]

101. Your nationalist strawman is a form of alienation. Internationalize the unions.

Your xenophobia hurts the labor movement, precisely because you pit working people, within this country and without, against one another. My father's family made a nice living with GM until they abandoned the American people. Now my cousin does well with Toyota.

Why is this, you ask. Because big corporate bureaucracies know no boundaries. All that matters is that we are all being exploited at each level and at each branch of the global supply chain. Until you identify with the struggles of every working person in that chain, nothing will be accomplished with regard to the labor movement. The chain gain is global, and that's the genius of the system. Play off of nationalist sentiments, pit them against each other, lull them to sleep, and then sell them garbage and make them love it. GM is the poster child for this process.

[blue_onyx]

104. What is xenophobic in the OP?

Pointing out the hypocrisy of opposing Walmart while loving foreign automakers is a valid argument.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

110. No it isn't.

No foreign automaker killed the retail sector in my home town. Good old American Wal-Mart did that.

[blue_onyx]

119. Yes it is

The foreign automakers came here, located mainly in "right to work," anti-union states driving down wages and benefits. We saw the effects of this recently when UAW members were basically forced into accepting wages and benefits that were equivalent to foreign companies.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

120. Really? Japanese cars were made here during the 80s?

Name one.

[blue_onyx]

121. Who said anything about the 80s?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

128. Oh, I don't know, just the OP. n/t

[blue_onyx]

130. Good for the OPer

Nothing I said had anything to do with the 80s.

FYI:

"When Toyota began building the Camry at its Kentucky manufacturing plant in 1988, this car became the first Toyota built at a manufacturing facility solely owned and operated by Toyota in the United States."

http://www.toyota.com/about/our_business/our_history/product_history/pdf/camry.pdf

[JANdad]

176. Thank You!

Finally someone gets it!

[treestar]

263. Bingo!

Good grief, the nonAmerican workers don't deserve it either!

[RB TexLa]

118. An American worker is no more worthy of one's support though a purchase than other human beings.

And I don't care if referring to non-Americans as human beings offends you.

[Romulox]

139. LOL at all that agree with this guy. "I don't support American workers with you!" nt

[treestar]

272. Explain why Americans are inherently better

humans, and why other humans should recognize that (they'd have to if we were to survive economically with no benefit to other nationals) and how the economy can take place entirely within one country as it did in the 18th century - no wait a minute, it was never like that, not even then.

[spoony]

285. Odd you'd go back to the pre-industrial revolution

to refute a point inherently about manufacturing. Seems rather dishonest. And enough of this bullshit strawman that US workers are xenophobes because we want the support of our fellow Americans. If people don't give a shit about their working countrymen and just want cheap garbage, they should really just admit it instead of BLAMING THE WORKERS for wanting proper jobs.

[treestar]

288. Everyone in the world wants a "proper job." Explain why we are inherently

more entitled. It is not "hating Americans" to realize that other humans consider themselves human too. Or that maybe they are. Geez, this is freeper territory.

Explain how the economy could function if we imported nothing, exported nothing, and never traded with anyone else.

[spoony]

291. Freeper territory indeed

That's the only place I see such warped, dishonest, anti-union, free trade rubbish.

See, you must know better. You must know that no one here said that we should neither import nor export ANYTHING. You must know that an American worker looking for support from and giving support to his other American workers is not about holding themselves above other nation's workers, or think they aren't human. You cannot REALLY get so many ingredients in this recipe wrong, it simply isn't possible. You either love arguing, are taking the piss, or truly despise US companies so much that you're willing to throw the workers to the wolves to tear them down.

[Romulox]

295. No, because it's an argument that is material to no point.

A democratic country is said a collective of individuals united in enlightened self-interest. You may define what that "self-interest" is differently from me. But my endorsement of what I see as my own enlightened self-interest does not originate in any feeling of "superiority".

So it's a bad argument. :hi:

[spoony]

172. Weak.

Yeah because those profits go right back to the slave labour. Lol. Shouldn't you be off collecting cans to pay for your dozens of "I'm an idiot and proud of it" traffic tickets?

[Realityhack]

232. So what exactly are the working conditions in...

Germany or Sweden?

[walldude]

122. So if I shop at Wal-MArt it's ok for me to own a foreign car

But if I bitch about them then I need to own an American car so as not to be "elitist" . Do I have that right?


This fucking board has become a fucking joke. Nothing but holier than thous fighting each other over who is more liberal, who is the right kind of liberal and who did what to whom to ruin the economy. You know what? If we spent half the energy working together that we do tearing each other up then we might actually make some progress in this country.

You posted this to bitch at the "elitists" which is exactly what you sound like to me. Just another sanctimonious holier than thou trying to tell everyone else how it's their fault we are in this mess. Gimme a fucking break.

I shop where I want and need to and I drive what I can afford.

[donco6]

132. Call me whatever you want.

I still hate Wal Mart solely for the craptastic shopping experience.

[LeftyMom]

133. I bought my Subaru because there wasn't a comparable domestic of similar quality/features

with the right combination of size and fuel efficiency.

Previously I had a Saturn. If Saturn still made a model similar to what I had, (or had I not wrecked that one while driving at a speed I don't care to admit) I'd still be driving a domestic. But they don't, so I have a Subaru, and I must admit it's a considerably better car than my Saturn was.

[divideandconquer]

136. And I bet considerably more expensive than your Saturn.

What model Subaru is it, pray tell?

[LeftyMom]

143. I bought both used. The Subie ran me $100 more than the Saturn, but it has more miles

:shrug:

I had a Saturn SW1. When I wrecked it I got a Subaru Forester S to replace it. I rather like it.

[Canuckistanian]

141. I live in Canada. They're ALL foreign cars.

But I still hate Walmart with a white-hot passion.

[pampango]

188. How does Canada survive given foreign car domination of the auto market? Your economy hasn't

collapsed under the weight of imported cars? ;)

[rhett o rick]

144. So you can rationalize your shopping at Wal-Mart but I can't rationalize my buying

a superior quality car from Japan? Huh? The American car manufacturing companies got lazy and lost the quality race to foreign car companies. Don't blame consumers for the countries trade policies. For the same reason you now buy at Wal-Mart, other buy from Lexus.

[blue_onyx]

145. False

Toyota has had quality issues. They had to recalled almost 4 millions vehicles recently. Toyota has also had problems with Tacomas rusting.

The US auto companies make great vehicles. JD powers rates Buick, a US brand, has number one in dependability. The Buick Lacrosse, for example, has received great reviews with the LA Times saying it "blows the Lexus out of the sky."

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/aug/07/business/fi-neil7

[rhett o rick]

148. I think he was talking about a number of years ago. For many yearsa Lexus was one of the highest

quality cars made in the world. And Japan had great warrantees. American car companies have had to scramble to catch up. Please dont get me wrong. I truly believe in buying American. But we need trade policies to protect American manufactured goods from the unfair competition from abroad.

[Iggo]

146. Okay.

[Skittles]

149. oh they're all fucking foreign now

who do you think does the data processing for General Motors? If you guessed India and Brazil you'd be correct.

[Romulox]

152. Not true, but it's easier than making a point, I guess.

:hi:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

153. At long last we agree on something. n/t

[Skittles]

156. IT IS TRUE

who the fuck do you think has to train them?

[spoony]

173. Yep that's the most convenient of excuses for them.

It's like one of my neighbours who never puts out the recycle bin because the earth is "screwed anyway." Just things people tell themselves to release them from any responsibility in their habits.

[Sherman A1]

184. Precisely

just as are many of the parts under the hood of my 1998 FORD Ranger.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

158. BUILD A DECENT SMALL CAR

Slightly better than the worst import doesn't make a Renaissance for Detroit, I bought two cars in the last year, a Honda Accord and a Hyundai Accent and there wasn't even a domestic in the running for either as buying a domestic would have meant paying significantly more for slightly less and worse fuel economy. For what it is worth Toyota also wasn't in the running as they have gone native and quality and pricing have suffered.

It isn't the role of the consumer to subsidize giant corporations that just can't get it right and don't seem to want to.

It isn't the fault of consumers that the American auto industry decided that high-margin SUV's were the future while neglecting the ordinary small car.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

166. I'll take issue with that.

The Ford Focus is a fantastic small car. It's safe, gets half-decent MPG, and isn't horrible to drive. I wish the US made more cars like this.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

191. And it starts at $17,500 as an automatic

There are a hell of alot of options in that price range that are a better value,

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

255. Point taken.

There are a lot of cars coming out these days (Versa, Yaris, etc) that are highly competitive in the small car segment - mostly European-derived models of Japanese cars. Once again the US auto industry has missed the boat. I considered a Versa back when I actually had money. Fantastic little car. I just find the interior of the Focus to be far more comfortable than most of the Japanese models.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

274. comfort wise, I don't disagree

I got so fed up with the company Toyota Tercel I was driving in Canada that was built by and for Umpa Lumpas that I had my Honda Accord shipped here.

[blue_onyx]

265. The price of the an automatic Focus

is about the same as similar vehicles from other companies.

Toyota Corolla: $16,150
Ford Focus: $16,810
Honda Civic: $16,455

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

273. So you propose somebody pay MORE for the Ford Focus than a Honda Civic?

I personally don't really care about resale value because I keep cars until they fall apart - or in the case of my last car hit by a runaway dumpster. But potential resale / trade-in value is also a consideration for many car buyers.

[blue_onyx]

276. Yes, I would recommend the Focus

Better looking, about the same price, has about the same mpg, and made in my state of MI.

[Realityhack]

234. Yes the Focus is a nice car.

And it would be nice if more American cars sucked less. But to be fair there are other options in the same or cheaper price range that may be better suited for an individual.

And it isn't like we are comparing 100% domestic production to 100% imports.

[Sherman A1]

180. Agreed

and Well Said! I would have been happy to buy a domestic car in the category for which I was looking (highest MPG) but it didn't exist. I suppose I could have purchased a Chevy Aveo which has that nice GM brand on a product built in Korea( (and really bad reliability ratings on CU) , but I chose to buy a Yaris instead. That decision apparently doesn't sit too well with some in this string of comments, but they are not paying my bills, so I suspect I get to decide.

[CTLawGuy]

187. +1

NT

[Greyhound]

165. Your problem is with the Taft–Hartley Act.

That was the death of collective bargaining in America. All the rest follows that abomination.

[krispos42]

167. The problem goes back to trade policy

We were dumb enough to a) not protect our domestic auto industry from foreign competition, and b) allow our domestic auto industry to consolidate into three players.

The destruction of the domestic auto industry under these conditions was inevitable, unless we had a super-xenophobic consumer base.

:shrug:

But when you have 9 major automakers competing in the smaller Japanese market and only 3 competing in the much-larger US market, you can see immediately where the innovations are going to take place and get to dealer showrooms.

If we had an ounce of sense we'd slap a hefty import tariff on foreign-made cars, a smaller tariff on US-made cars by foreign compoanies, and break up GM and Ford into their component parts. Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, Ford, Saturn, Hummer, Lincoln Mercury, and Cadillac would each become an independent company. Chrysler is probably small enough to not be broken up, although I could see a Hummer/Jeep merger.

[JANdad]

175. Nice Post

With some good points!

[krispos42]

178. "The Myth of Free Trade" by Dr. Ravi Batra is your friend...

What's scary is that he paints a grim picture... back in 1992, before NAFTA and GATT!

He have been pulling his hair out in the 90's.


Hmmm... this reminds me that Thom Hartmann hasn't had him on in a while.

[Hippo_Tron]

215. We already have quotas on imported cars

They're actually self-imposed with the implict threat that we will impose them if other countries don't. That's why there are Subaru plants in the United States. It allows them to get around the quota.

[Romulox]

240. "You keep using that word..."

"We already have quotas..."

No we don't, which you admit in your next sentence: "They're actually self-imposed."

That's not what "quota" means.

[Hippo_Tron]

245. Export quota rather than "self-imposed" would've been a more accurate term

Export quotas are still quotas.

[Romulox]

282. Right, but Americans don't export cars into their own country.

:hi:

[Hippo_Tron]

305. No, but Japan does export cars

And Japan places legal restriction on how many cars their companies can export. That is a quota.

[Romulox]

323. So your assertion re: import quotas is simply wrong. Move on. nt

[krispos42]

253. And we let them get around the quota

And use non-union labor, to boot.

Collectively, we're stupid. The Japanese would never let Ford just buy land in Japan and build an assembly plant.

[Hippo_Tron]

306. Sure they would

The United States had about $1.5 trillion of FDI in Japan in 2003. FDI ultimately boosts a country's GDP and creates jobs for that country because the goods are actually produced within that country even if the headquarters is elsewhere.

The fact that they're non-union reflects a problem with our labor laws not our trade laws. Allowing states to be "right to work" states lets them set the plants up in those states. If we abolished right to work laws, the Honda and Subaru plants in the United States would be unionized.

[Realityhack]

237. And the retaliatory tariffs and fines might put the US makers out of business

By blocking access to the European market. Plus the protectionism would be counterproductive to innovation goal.

[krispos42]

260. Yeah, I keep hearing that....

...yet considering how much we import and how little we export, I don't see what we have to lose. We're 25% of the world economy, after all.

First off, there isn't much Europe makes that we can't make here. Or that we used to make here but outsourced, which means we can make it here but chose not to. And that means we can make them here again.

Second, innovation is driven by competition. Breaking up the Big Three into 8 different corporations would increase competition, and thus innovation.


The status quo is unsustainable. Too much of our economy is businesses that create money without creating wealth, of minimally-skilled jobs without unionization. Service and retail jobs instead of taking raw materials and creating new objects. The vast majority are in a downward spiral of diminishing wages.

The "oh noes, protectionism would kill us!" meme has been being repeated for practically my lifetime. It's become what "everybody knows", regardless of facts.

We have to go to what we used to do.

[Realityhack]

280. Um...

"innovation is driven by competition. Breaking up the Big Three into 8 different corporations would increase competition, and thus innovation."
but you don't see how allowing imports also promotes innovation though competition?

You seem to be advocating economic isolationism. IMO that is suicide. Heavy cutting of trade ties would mean we only had our own domestic market to sell into, and we would miss out on innovation from the rest of the world.
Domestic producers would not need to innovate to compete with what was happening in the rest of the world. I think that go down hill very very fast.

[CTLawGuy]

185. Our manufacturing base has disappeared

because of irresponsible "free trade" policies and a philosophy of "whatever is good for investors and business is good for America." It's not consumers' fault that American workers can't compete with Indian and Chinese slave labor. It's not their fault that politicians don't see a moral problem with forcing them to compete with these workers.

Furthermore, it's arrogant to try to shame people into buying American cars (and won't work). What does that say about the quality of your product, that this is your strategy? It's also as lame as trying to guilt a woman into going on a date with you.

Would you let a surgeon with multiple complaints against him operate on you, just because he grew up in the same hometown as you? Would you blame someone who would not?

[Romulox]

212. Support for (domestic) labor is a foundational plank of the Democratic Party.

Perhaps you missed that part? :shrug:

[CTLawGuy]

299. I wasn't aware of the platform plank

where we all had to buy American cars... or the plank that says we have to buy american products no matter how poor the quality is.

[old mark]

189. I don't believe WalMart is the evil ogre many people seem to delight in thinking it is.

A lousy job in retail is pretty much the same no matter what the company name, and I have to think that those small markets that were displaced by WalMart offered their few employees no benefits and poor wages and working conditions, while charging high prices for their limited selection of wares.

I shop WalMart frequently, and drive a Hyundai SUV because the US made cars I considered were not as good. It's my second Hyundai, and if I live long enough to buy another car, I will probably get another one.

mark

[Realityhack]

235. I think you may not be aware of all the issues with Walmart in particular.

Comparing Walmart to other major national chains there IS a difference. There is a reason people talk more about Walmart than other companies.
OTOH some of the complaints may be blown out of proportion.

[Toasterlad]

190. There's a Difference Between Buying a Six-Pack of Tube Socks and a $20K Car

If I'm making that kind of investment, I'm going to get the best value for my money. If the best value for my money is not an American care, the fault is not mine. The fault is the American automobile industry.

[Romulox]

241. Right. One purchase hurts American workers a hell of a lot more. nt

[Toasterlad]

314. And That Is My Fault Exactly How?

Are you suggesting I buy an extremely costly inferior product because it's my fucking patriotic duty?

When the unions and the auto manufacturers come together and realize that together, their greed is killing their business, they might have a shot at turning things around. Until then, I'm not going to feel one tiny bit of guilt driving my Hyundai Elantra.

[Romulox]

326. No more your "fault" than the WalMart checker didn't get an education, or that the Chinese worker

was born in China.

What does "fault" have to do with anything?

[rhett o rick]

192. Can you buy an American made car today? If so, what percentage of American made parts does it have

to have? I support buying American but honestly would like to know which cars are considered American made.

[treestar]

197. People are going to buy the best product for the best price

No point in fighting that. No one is ever going to buy anything for a higher price out of loyalty. Why do the mom and pops go down when BIGCO moves in?

The solution is to have a social safety net so nobody falls between the cracks. Trying to control things border-wise and the like is just going to hobble the engine that brings in the money. Bring in the money and use it for retraining and education.

[CanonRay]

208. I went to look at a Chevy Equinox last month

The engine was built in China. The trans was built in Japan. The car was assembled in Canada. How the hell do I buy American???

[Oerdin]

214. It's a personal choice.

I personally don't shop at Walmart because I don't like their labor or business practices but I don't try to prevent anyone else from going there. Personally, I think they sell junk and the one pair of jeans I bought from them four years ago fell apart in a week. Literally in a week. That said I believe in the free market and if people want to buy the lowest priced, lowest quality goods then they should have that option. I do think Walmart should be allowed to set up stores in every city and not be blocked by unions who are afraid of competition. I know that if there is a Walmart on one side of the street and a different store on the other side then I'll go to the other one for better quality and labor values I agree with.

[divideandconquer]

258. There is no such thing as a free market, it's libertarian myth/hoax

American companies and goods face barriers in Japan and Korea, as well as currency manipulation. Inside our country we have a most industries operating under monppolistic competition where major players control pricing

[Hippo_Tron]

216. Japan has more stringent labor laws than we do

If your point is about American jobs then it is valid. But if your point is about labor practices then you are way off base.

[Romulox]

242. "Court rules employee worked to death"

TOKYO (Reuters) - A Toyota Motor Corp employee died of overwork after logging more than 106 hours of overtime in a month, a judge ruled Friday, reversing a ministry's earlier decision not to pay compensation to his widow.

http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSN3030114720071130

:silly: :hi:

[StarfarerBill]

220. No, it was actually corporations moving their operations to other countries...

...because their workers were getting living wages that destroyed this country's industrial base.

Oh, and you can thank Wal-Mart and all the other mega-chains for offering mostly cheap, foreign-made goods that are all we can afford after the well-paying jobs went overseas..."Made in America", my ass.

Finally: yes, I drive a Toyota.

[alarimer]

222. What about "American" cars built overseas?

Apparently, up to a quarter of GM products will be built in foreign countries as part of the restructuring. I am not talking about cars Ford, GM build overseas to sell overseas. No, I am talking about American car companies building cars overseas (like the Ford Fusion) or in Canada or Mexico. It complicates the discussion of what is an "American" car. And of course many foreign car companies have plants in the US. I realize those are mainly not union jobs, but they are good-paying jobs nonetheless.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/07/AR2009050704336.html

The U.S. government is pouring billions into General Motors in hopes of reviving the domestic economy, but when the automaker completes its restructuring plan, many of the company's new jobs will be filled by workers overseas

[Romulox]

243. Is it a surprise that the Obama admin wants to shift GM work overseas?

They're committed globalists, who poured TARP and C4C money to foreign corporations.

Is that really a good excuse to abandon support of your fellow Americans? :shrug:

[Jennicut]

244. Is any car 100% American made anymore?

I have a Honda CRV but it was given to me by my Grandmother who can't drive anymore. I would be willing to buy an American car if it was really 100% made here and if it was the right price, the right quality, etc.

[defendandprotect]

247. American manufacturers have allied themselves with oil companies . . .

and produced garbage -- they also provided better cars for the foreign markets!

Should Americans have continued to buy cars that didn't operate as well as foreign
cars -- didn't last as long -- were more expensive to operate?

Or should American manufacturers have responded LONG AGO to the need to provide
better cars? How long ago could we have had electric cars????

They did nothing but try to destroy the electric car market -- and try watching "TUCKER"
perhaps?

[Fading Captain]

248. BINGO!!! Notice the percentage of college graduates in foreign cars?

They buy foreign cars as a status symbol -- to separate themselves from working stiffs who drive a Dodge or Ford.

Granted, I am painting with an extremely wide brush here, but in general terms, I am speaking the truth.

[sentelle]

256. I want a car that is 100% built in America

Where all the parts are made here.
Where all the parts are assembled here.

Its in our national interests, but does it exist?

Its in our national defense interests (so we are not dependant on others for the materiel we need to wage war) does it exist?

America can have the highest Quality control in the world, if our corporate masters are willing to pay.... so what's missing?

[treestar]

261. The U.S. is still the single largest manufacturer!

Which one would never have thought after years on DU!

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_the_US_manufacture

"Although the U.S. doesn't make a huge amount of consumer goods, as the world's single largest manufacturer (accounting for more than 20% of the world's total manufacturing output), the U.S. makes -- among many other things -- aircraft (Lockheed Martin, Boeing), missiles, space-related equipment, autos and auto parts (Ford, GM), farming equipment (John Deere), gas turbines for power plants (GE), and computer chips (HP, Intel)."

DU is stuck on consumer goods because that's what individuals see. A little research goes a long way.

[pampango]

293. And we're the third largest exporter. According to many here, we don't make anything any more and

we don't export anything. :)

[ddeclue]

262. Bite me: Both my cars are American and I don't shop at Wally World EITHER!

[tjwash]

270. Well...this thread just went smashingly good!

:rofl:

[Life Long Dem]

279. It was all that was left in the 80's that didn't break down or run out of gas too soon.

[IrishBuckeye]

316. 20 years later that song doesn't ring true anymore

Fact is you have a bunch of Anti-Walmart people who are anti-UAW as well. Union made cars are just as good as any other car on the road today.

[LWolf]

319. I'm not anti-UAW.

My first husband was a member.

I have driven enough American cars, in the 70s and 80s, to say that I quit trusting them a long time ago.

The last American made car I bought was in 1990. A Dodge Shadow. It required major repairs twice in the first two years of driving it, and I happily traded it in for a Toyota truck that is still running well with NO major repairs, just regular maintenance, at 230K miles.

The last decent American-made vehicle I bought was a full size pick up; a '97 model. I liked the truck, but when we divided things during the divorce, I took the 'yota. It was paid off and got better gas mileage.

[Romulox]

325. LOL. You haven't heard about the Toyota truck rust problems?

Why are so many auto quality back-patters so behind the news cycle on these things? :wtf:

Images from the undercarriage of a 2003 Toyota Tundra:







Feds probe Toyota Tundras (frame corrosion)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6717794

You haven't heard about this, and yet you pack your own back as a "quality expert"??? :rofl:

[LWolf]

329. I've heard about it.

Neither of mine have rust problems.

Neither did the '79 we took 450K+ miles before my teenage son ran it into a mountain and bent the frame.

[Romulox]

333. Even Toyota admits major quality problems with their pickups.

There is obviously a quality issue with Toyota pickups--aside from the NHTSB investigation, Toyota has been purchasing certain Toyota trucks back certain model Toyota pickups for 150% KBB retail value to keep them off the market.

It's hard to imagine someone aware of the above coming here and talking up Toyota pickup quality. I think it tends to show you how deeply seated our preconceptions become.

[LWolf]

339. Believe it.

It's probably because I'm 49, have driven (and ridden in family owned) American and Japanese cars since the 60s, and have owned 3 generations of toyota trucks, driven a total of 647K miles with, not only no rust, but no need for anything but regular oil changes, brakes, belts, and hoses about every 100K, and a clutch about every 150K. Toyota sent me notices, and my trucks checked out fine.

It's hard to give an anonymous internet poster any credibility when the physical evidence sits in the driveway.

Or most of it. That original '79 pickup was disassembled for parts when my son bent the frame in 1993. The engine, though, is still running. My brother-in-law took it about 15 years ago to run some equipment at his boatyard.

While my favorite for reliability and economy is the 'yota pu, my favorite car to drive was the '69 Cougar. I learned to drive in one, owned it until it fell apart for the last time, and bought another just because I loved it.

I loved it, but on both, the front ends would not stay aligned, the radiators had problems, the windows wouldn't stay on track, and the transmissions needed frequent work.

I owned a Ford pinto...AFTER I had the engine rebuilt with only 60K miles, it banged, belched, and died, with only 12K miles on that new engine, at the top of the Santa Susana Pass on the 118. I had a toddler and an infant in the back seat. We coasted down the hill, off the freeway, down Topanga Cyn Blvd., right at the first intersection, and came to rest at the side of the road there. I walked from there to my in-law's place, hauling the infant, my purse, diaper bag, and holding the hand of the toddler; no cell phones in 1981. My brother-in-law hauled it to their place, and left it in front of the curb until I figured out what to do with it. Which I never did. A month later it was hauled away, after a neighbor called the cops and complained that it was unsightly.

I owned a 1970 chevy pu, which I loved. And a 1997. And a '68 Ford pu. All worthy.

I also owned a Buick Riviera; nice car, except that the transmission needed replacing frequently, and the driver's side door hung awkwardly, had to be picked up to close properly, and eventually got stuck closed, requiring me to hop in and out the window as if it were the General Lee. And the automatic windows frequently malfunctioned.

That car went by the way with the gas shortages of the 1970s, when we all drove little japanese cars so we wouldn't have to wait in those long lines so often.

The BEST cars I've ever driven? a '74 Honda Civic, and a '76 Datsun F10. Well over 100K with great gas mileage and no major repairs required. They took me from the Pinto through into the 90s, until I bought the Shadow, while my ex drove the 'yotas.

[Romulox]

340. 1974 was 35 years ago. We're talking about vehicles produced in the last 10 years...

Moreover, you are offering anecdotes in the face of NHTSB investigations, recalls, and buy-back programs. :hi:

[LWolf]

341. It was 35 years ago.

That's part of my point. I expect my vehicles to last reliably for a couple of decades. As my 'yota pickups have. While I'm driving them, I haven't needed to purchase newer models.

I like living without car payments.

And yes, I'm offering anecdotes. Because what counts with me is what has been proven in my own driveway. That's where it costs me, or doesn't.

If I were in the market today, I'd look at all the hybrid options. I'd probably do a comparison of the Honda insight and the Ford Fusion. I also hear that there is a hybrid RAV4 in the works.

I negotiate a 300 foot dirt driveway and 2 miles of dirt and gravel private roads, unplowed when it snows, in the winter. High profile and 4wd handles that better, so the RAV4 might have a place.

If I had the cash to buy another used vehicle, I'd stick to my 'yota for daily driving and buy a used full sized pickup, 3/4 ton or better, to haul horses, hay, and firewood. There's plenty of them locally for sale since the economy went south and gas prices skyrocketed. Since I can't, I use my mom's old 60s vintage Ford when I have to.

[LWolf]

318. I disagree.

It was American car companies' refusal to build fuel-efficient cars that would last a decade or more that pushed people into Japanese models.

Today, buyers need to do some research if they are looking for an American-made car. American companies outsource, and others build there cars right here in the U.S..

"It's all you left me with...." Utter bullshit.

Every single one of my family members, my grown sons, myself, and my mother, are struggling to make ends meet. Lay-offs, pay cuts, hours cut...none of us are more than surviving from paycheck to paycheck. We live frugally, and shop carefully.

And none of us shop at WalMart.

There ARE other options.

[NNN0LHI]

320. Its the exact same model that Walmart uses on stupid Americans

Sell them something a little cheaper and a little better until you put all the competition out of business. Then raise the prices and lower the quality and they will still have to purchase from them because they are now the only game in town. Only difference is that now all the good jobs for peoples children have moved offshore. But Americans aren't capable of figuring this out for themselves. They are incapable of figuring out why the only jobs available for their grown children are guarding pipelines in Iraq or Afghanistan. Its a mystery to them. Too much American Idol and not enough using their brains.

So now their kids don't have any decent jobs. And they can't figure out where all the good jobs went? It befuddles them.

And they know Americans are stupid enough to fall for it too.

They have seen it happen with Walmart perfectly. And they are duplicating that model.

Now if I were to say I would like to have more H1B visa's because I thought doing so would bring the cost of things down for me here in the USA people would go completely ape shit over that. Some of them same fools would own a Toyota or Honda I bet.

Don

[Deja Q]

324. Some of Ford's cars are made outside the US and some foreign cars are made in the US too.

The issue is a bit more complex, but you're right - the dissemination of OUR middle class is a result of so-called "globalization", which even years ago I was saying "Seems more a migration than expansion, but whatever"...

I also love the reverse-racism, of how everyone else is brighter than Americans. (the truth is in the middle and, obviously, having a high IQ doesn't necessarily get anyone free perks either... can't say the same for those who know how to swindle, however...)

[ItNerd4life]

327. Well Said! Bravo!

You ever notice how people can only see the hypocrites on the conservative side but never see it in themselves?

[tammywammy]

332. I don't shop at Walmart, but do have a foreign vehicle

I just bought it a month and a half ago. I test drove the Ford Escape first, which is a fine vehicle, but in the end I preferred the Volkswagen. My car was made in Germany, but it also helps American workers (the trucker that drove it from Houston to DFW, the salesman, the finance guy, the American owned dealer, and in the long run the service dept when I get oil changes).

[Romulox]

334. Shopping at Wal Mart helps those exact same sorts of American workers.

Truck drivers, et al.

It's hard to see what (if any) distinction you're trying to draw. :shrug:

[tammywammy]

335. Except Walmart corporate practices is what I don't like

The specific dealership I worked with does not treat their employees that way, and I know from personal experience.

And I don't judge people that do shop at Walmart, I just choose not to. I'm not anti-union. The Ford was the first car I test drove, I had all intentions of buying it (I qualify for the X plan, the only negotiation I had to do was on my trade). It just wasn't what I wanted in the end.

[Romulox]

336. Every foreign auto company has a corporate practice of locating in "Right to Work" states

In the case of VW, it builds the bulk of cars it imports into the US in Mexico to avoid the unions in its native Germany!

I'm not going demonize anyone for not caring about labor issues, but let's not obscure the issue.

[tammywammy]

337. The Jetta and Beetle are assembled in Mexico

But then the bulk of those are sold in North American, not Europe. Kind of like when GM builds a factory in India for cars they sell in India. My vehicle was built with German union labor.

[Romulox]

338. Which represent the bulk of their US sales... nt