Gun Law — European Style

[LSK]

ENGLAND and WALES
* Gun owners must be licensed. Applicants need two referees, and police are allowed to consult would-be gun owners' doctors.
* Guns must be registered.
* In the wake of the 1996 Dunblane massacre the government passed a law severely restricting handguns. Anyone in possession of a high caliber handgun faces a maximum 10 years' imprisonment or a $7,285 fine, or both

FRANCE
* Firearms must be registered, except for sporting rifles.
* A Sports Federation license is required to request an ownership permit. Applicants must have no record of criminal activity or mental illness. Applications approved by the Federation must also be vetted by local police and municipal officials. Permits must be renewed every three years.
* Machine guns and automatic firearms are prohibited without special authorization and are reserved almost exclusively for military and police forces.

GERMANY
* Gun owners must be licensed and firearms registered.
* Germany passed strict firearms regulation in 1972, and a new bill tightening the law even further may soon be passed by the upper house of parliament.
* Those applying for a license must be over 18 years old and, generally, a German resident for more than three years.
* Appplicants must prove their need to possess a gun, technical proficiency, knowledge of firearms and physical fitness.
* Fully automatic weapons are banned.

ITALY
* Gun owners must be licensed and firearms registered.
* Gun owners must be over 18, undergo psychological and physical tests and have a clean police record.
* Licenses must be renewed each year.
* No one may own more than three guns.

NETHERLANDS
* Gun owners must be licensed. Applicants must be over 18 years old and a gun club member for at least a year. Applications are approved by police, and licenses must be renewed annually. Firearms must be registered.
* Automatic and semi-automatic weapons are banned.

SPAIN
* Gun owners must be licensed and undergo strict medical and psychological tests. No one is permitted to own more than six hunting rifles and one handgun.
* Firearms must be registered and inspected annually.
* Machine guns and submachine guns are banned, as are imitation pistols.

SWITZERLAND
* Gun owners must be licensed and firearms registered.
* Tighter regulation was introduced in 1999 — gun owners now require a permit. Applicants must prove they need a gun and pass an exam on their theoretical and practical knowledge of gun use.
* Members of the Swiss military are required to keep their weapons at home.
* Hunting and sporting rifles can be purchased without a permit and transported freely within the country, though permits are required to transport other guns.

EUROPEAN UNION
* The Schengen Agreement, which came into force in 1985, proposed harmonizing the acquisition, possession and sale of firearms across the signatory countries. These provisions have been overtaken by a European Union directive that sets out minimum standards for gun registration, including a "European firearm card" that any gun-owner must have on hand when transporting a weapon from one E.U. member state to another.

http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/0513/guns...

[Junkdrawer]

1. Bottom line: In two weeks, we'll move on to other issues...

The gunners will remained focused.

The gun industry will remained focused.

The NRA will remained focused.

And they will win.

[Jack_DeLeon]

17. Hopefully...

I would hate for a knee jerk reaction to take away some of my rights.

[Junkdrawer]

19. We'd like a safer world....you're defending an industry and an addiction...

No contest. Godzilla vs. Bambi...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-36343098757818...

[Irreverend IX]

24. Governments killed 262,000,000 of their own people in the 20th century.

Assuming an average height of 5', if all bodies were laid head to toe they would circle the Earth ten times. That's a lot more than the number killed by civilians with guns.

You want a safer world? In light of the numbers, I'm more worried about democide than homicide.

[Canuckistanian]

23. By all means, look at the options first

Think on it long and hard. But the evidence is clear. The present system isn't working.

Nobody's advocating banning all guns.

Just have a sensible alternative.

[maxsolomon]

2. but... but... but...

i'm SO AFRAID!

[INDIA]

4. I know what you mean.

Events like yesterday are horrific, tragic, and a rarity.

95% of this country is perfectly safe. If you aren't in a gang, not involved in drugs, and live outside of a select few dangerous inner city areas, this is a relatively non-violent, safe country.

This "gun crime" epidemic just doesn't phase me. I think it's media sensationalism along the lines of the War on Terror. It plays at people's primal fears. When I'm in Europe this summer I'll likely be on guard more than I would here in the states. A lost, drunk tourist (as I'll be) is at a higher risk for assault, stabbing, mugging, shooting IMO than your average American living in country.

[AZBlue]

3. What really stands out to me here is the need for psychological testing.

That seems like a no-brainer to me.

Thank you for posting this info - it's very informative.

[ret5hd]

6. What if "left leaning ideations"...

or "anti-authoritarian leanings" or some equivalent wording was grounds for denial of a permit? Who gets to decide what mental states and/or ideologies are acceptable?

[AZBlue]

9. I'm sick of this excuse.

First of all, try as they might, the Bush administration hasn't even been very successful in taking away our liberties, and they've tried really really hard. That's because we live in a democracy.

Secondly, this argument could be used to throw out all laws entirely. It's worse than a Strawman - it's grasping at straws.

[ret5hd]

12. So your papers (emails?) are secure from unreasonable...

search and siezure?

And your life, liberty, and property are secure? (detentions?, renditions? eminent domain for corporate giveaways?)

And a speedy trial? by an impartial jury? and the right to confront the witnesses against you? (padilla? secret evidence?)

Excessive bail? Cruel and Unusual punishment?

Exactly what rights have been retained by the people that aren't enumerated to the gov't?

So, by my count we've got I, II, and III left...You get to keep your religion (for now and probably forever if you're a xtian) and your guns (for now)
and you won't have to house and/or feed any troops.

Well, that's only 3 out of 10, so i hardly FUCKIN' think it's a STRAWMAN!

[LSK]

14. READ the ENTIRE 2nd Amendment

Also why isnt the WELL REGULATED MILITIA'S right to bear arms in the 1ST amendment???

[ret5hd]

15. That was not the point of contention i had with AZBlue...

I addressed my point of contention inm my post.

[spoony]

25. The government, of course, and I don't think anyone here would

want THIS government making our decisions based on what they think about what we think. Good point, ret5hd.

[truebrit71]

26. Being left-of-centre is not a mental condition..

Nice try though...

[ret5hd]

28. Yes, it is reassuring to know that the field of psychiatry has never...

been bent or distorted for political purposes.

[Hangingon]

7. How would you test?

Some canned written test like the driver's exam? Ink blotches? Sounds great in a discussion but I do not see how it would work.

[AZBlue]

8. Well, the first step would be to see what other countries use for their tests

since they've had such success with it and don't face these kind of senseless shootings nearly as often as we do.

[Hangingon]

11. Looking quickly at the Time generated summary,

I only see testing in Italy and Spain. I would lie to know how they do it. Then I want to know what happens to all the tests for those who pass. Who has access to them? If you fail, great keep them. If you pass, the overwhelming number I suspect, then they should be destroyed after a reasonable period.

[AZBlue]

20. True, although other countries use doctor referrals or records.

I think if you want a gun, you shouldn't be able to hide the fact that you've been treated for multiple personalities and the like. If you want a gun, then make your medical records available (and I don't mean all your records - the doctor doesn't have to tell anyone you've had a vasectomy or have bad allergies - only the pertinent things should be available).

Nothing's going to be a perfect fix, but at least it would be a step in the right direction.

[Hangingon]

21. You are tampering with something pretty sacred...

Should everyone over 60 have to have a doctor's referral to get his driver's license renewed? These things happen in more than one context. Yes europe has stricter laws than we do but they also have less freedoms than we do. I don't want more VTs. I don't have any mental history so I wouldn't mind answering that on a form. I can't remember if the BATF form asks that but I'd be happy to have the question on the form. How do you check it? What is my doctor going to say - that I have high blood pressure or cholesterol?

[Karenina]

34. " "Should everyone over 60

have to have a doctor's referral to get his driver's license renewed?"

Maybe not 60 but at 75-80, YES. Eye tests and reflex responses. You've probably not yet had to deal with an aging parent who should NOT be driving.

Where you get the distorted idea that Europeans somehow have "less freedoms" is anybody's guess. We have the FREEDOM to walk the city streets at night. Sure, folks get accosted. But rarely with GUNS. Ever been out of PODUNK, U.S.A.?

[Hangingon]

35. Normally I don't respond to empty profiles...

In reading this board and others, I find they are not people without credibility. The anonymity seems to allow them to create the fiction that they are wiser and/or more spohisticated than others.

I have dealt with an aging parent who had to be restrained from driving. It did not take a doctor to do it.

As a matter of fact, I have been out of Podunk. I have traveled and lived in europe, the east coast, the west coast and in metropolitan areas of the midwest. Parts of europe are wonderful, but there is no country that I would choose over the US.

[LSK]

13. I dont know, but it seems to work in European countries

Its not like this is new stuff. Maybe some study into Europe would be prudent here?

[Hangingon]

16. Agreed. Worth a look.

I just don't want a low paid civil servant administering a Rohrschact test, grading me and creating a file. A check for mental illness is used in some countries but this is going to cause a major roar. If it works for guns, it should work for drivers licenses (road rage). Can you hear the outrage. Will the medical industry cooperate? What kind of trouble will loosening patient privilege result in?

[mudesi]

5. Kick (nm)

[bigbrother05]

10. in germany they

changed the law after the school shooting in Eurfurt about 4 years ago
The law was changed for a person to be 21 years of age before they can register a weapon

[Jack_DeLeon]

18. Do any European nations allow concealed carry?

Is it possible for American citizens to obtain a "European firearm card," incase I decided to visit and wanted to participate in some matching while there.

[Kelvin Mace]

22. My suggestion to the solve the problem

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

It ain't perfect, but discussion is welcome.

(FYI, the Swiss have started to come to the realization that military weapons kept in the home are starting to account for a rise in domestic homicides.)

[LibertyorDeath]

27. Holy shit that sounds like common sense

No fucking way that's gonna fly in the USA !

[salin]

29. It seems that we, at the least, have to admit that we find the "cost"

of our gun laws (per rates of death and periodic tragic massacrs) as acceptable in exchange for our current gun laws.

The "we" is included per our body politic that legislates in "our" name, and on this issue the part of "we" that strives to maintain the status quo, is the one that ends up representing the generalized "we" per the US.

[Blue_Tires]

30. ttt nt

[LSK]

31. Kick

[Hell Hath No Fury]

32. Very moderate and sane...

regulations -- what a concept!

Too bad the US doesn't have enough moderate and sane gun "enthusiasts" who would go along with this.

[LSK]

33. kick