Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

On Bill Maher's anti-vaccine bullshit

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 02:02 AM
Original message
On Bill Maher's anti-vaccine bullshit
Edited on Mon Oct-19-09 02:13 AM by BzaDem
Rather than write a long diatribe about people like Bill Maher who are anti-science and anti-health and anti-reality and who don't want children and pregnant women to get vaccinated (and calls anyone who does get vaccinated an "idiot"), I am just going to take a page from Barney Frank's playbook. "It's a tribute to the First Amendment that this kind of vile, contemptible nonsense is so freely propagated."

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/13/bill-maher-vs-...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
greenman3610 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
1. if that's true, I am really disappointed in Maher.
that's Glenn Beck territory.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. It's true. He tries to argue that Pasteur recanted Germ Theory on his deathbed for Beauchamp's
Edited on Mon Oct-19-09 02:16 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
pleomorphism.

It's been true for awhile.

From an interview a couple of years ago:

"I don't believe in vaccination either. That's a... well, that's a... what? That's another theory that I think is flawed, that we go by the Louis Pasteur theory, even though Louis Pasteur renounced it on his own deathbed and said that Beauchamp(s) was right: it's not the invading germs, it's the terrain. It's not the mosquitoes, it's the swamp that they are breeding in."

And although he tried to take it back on Friday's show, he again went off the rails with this:

"...I do understand the theory of inoculation. Yes, you give someone a little bit of the disease and it fools your body into providing antibodies which fight it. Brilliant! Bravo! Maybe there is some occasions where inoculation is a wise thing to do. I hope not. I hope I would never have to have one because, you know, to present it just as this genius medical advancement, no, it's actually a risky medical procedure that begs long term cost-benefit analysis."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. And he's an HIV/AIDS denialist.
"This is a book everyone should read, and not a moment too soon! One of the most corrosive flaws in America is our tendency toward conformity; in the quest to understand AIDS, it has been stifling. (HIV/AIDS denialist) Christine Maggiore prompts the kind of questioning that is the lifeblood of scientific inquiry"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. The Christne Maggiore that died of HIV related pneumonia last year?
I wonder if he's changed his mind since her passing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. That's the one.
And probably not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. WTF is "theoretical" about "germs"?


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. "theory" as in school of thought.
Germ theory.

Color theory.

Theory of gravity.

Theory of relativity.

Theory of evolution.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
126. I recall once as an undergrad
I was arguing with a 'friend' about theories. He said evolution was just a theory. So I picked up his laptop and asked what would happen if I let go of it. He said it would break. I said 'well, that's just a theory, right?' and let go. Best thousand bucks I ever spent.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Chemisse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. That is just bizarre! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. The minute long rant in question was difficult for me, and apparently the guests, to decipher.
The only three things he really stated with clarity was proper nutrition is the best defense against the flu, our society's economy is largely based on people being sick (I think he said about 1/6th of our economy), and there is nothing wrong with questioning convention.

The rest of his rant was incoherent to me, I don't remember him coming right out and saying vaccines were bad, but he may have. There may be a clip of his rant somewhere, hopefully the clip includes the guests facial reactions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. This is when I stopped watching him
He started with this bizarre idea last week and he is not even funny anymore. So why bother?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #33
42. I have last week taped, but we have not watched it yet.
Maher gets some great guests on his show.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Marlana Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
124. He also tried to link childhood allergies to dental fillings.
It was a strange diatribe, for sure.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
29. when I was a kid we sweated through polio season and prayed. then
they had the vaccine and some of my friends were anti-vaccine. their kids got polio. same thing in my mind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 02:16 AM
Response to Original message
4. bill maher claims that he will never get sick
because he eats properly, exercises and takes care of himself. that's not always the case. i ate well, took my vitamins, did my weight bearing exercise and guess what? i've got severe chronic fatigue syndrome, osteoporosis and arthritis.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. Horseshit. He probably won't get expensively sick because 85% of the population never will
He thinks he deserves a goddam medal for that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. i've always liked him, but his arrogance
is beginning to annoy me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #34
40. He is actually funny, at least intermittently n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
70. Well that proves it.
Thanks. Bill Maher is wrong. I'm glad you proved that.

...

Frankly we see here the same old tired dog pile of those who pile on every position they don't agree with. I know, I know, y'all will say that it isn't your opinion, it is fact, which or course ignores that theories are mutible.

Besides Maher did not say what he is accused of in knee jerk land. Complete non issue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
5. To question a mandated vaccination is not "anti-science" nor "anti-health"
nor anti-anything else other than anti-MANDATE . . .

And why not exaggerate just a bit more . . .

"don't want children and pregnant women to get vaccinated" --- ???

How about leave it up to pregnant women and families as to whether or not to

take the vaccinations themselves and to decide for their children?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thinking the moon landing was a hoax is "anti-science"
Making up shit about autism and vaccines is "anti-science" and "anti-health."

Your straman about "questioning" the vaccine is "anti-honesty."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. I don't think he mentioned autism. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #27
84. Not on this thread, no.
He also didn't claim the moon landing was a hoax on this thread either.

:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
71. What shit did he make up?
He asserted that in America, at least on paper, we have a right to not be forced into activities that we disagree with (there are exceptions), but his basic premise, which has never varied over the years as far as I can tell.

You got anything else to add while you are on the company clock, Monsanto Man?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #71
85. Well there's the basic idea that the vaccine is mandatory.
And there's the stuff about autism.

And Native Americans having penicillin.

Would you like me to continue?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. He doesn't belive in Germ Theory. That's a cornerstone of the scientific community.
That's like saying you don't believe in gravity.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. You are completely misrepresenting Bill Maher's position.
Edited on Mon Oct-19-09 02:27 AM by BzaDem
He is not on a pro-freedom crusade. He is on an anti-vaccine crusade. He thinks anyone who would take a flu vaccine is an idiot. http://twitter.com/billmaher/status/4403617471

He actively pushes for people not to take vaccines.

People with those views, thanks to our First Amendment, are allowed to freely propagate them. But the First Amendment does not guarantee Bill Maher his own show, and HBO should consider the implications of what they are endorsing.

In reality, those who can get vaccinated and do not are idiots. But as long as they stay out of the way of people who can't get vaccinated and do not try to bring others into their delusions, I don't care. I also don't care about people who don't believe in evolution, or don't believe in global warming. Those people (for the most part) are not harming others with their idiocy. But Bill Maher is actively trying to spread anti-scientific bullshit, and that bullshit could result in needless deaths.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. I'm representing MY position . . . and you're failing to understand MANDATE . . .
Also campare this fear mongering re the Swine Flu with the fear-mongering of 9/11 . . .

Again, try to notice the deaths and sickness caused by vaccines -- start with our

soldiers.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Your position is anti-science and anti-health.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #20
38. My 5 year old daughter has the swine flu right now. She had a temperature
of 103.7 before she went to the doctor. They gave her something called "medicine" (ibuprofen) and she started to feel a lot better. After that wore off, she felt bad again so my wife gave her some more "medicine" and she feels better again. We were going to get her vaccinated next week but the swine flu got to her first,.

I don't know about you, but doctors and those that come up with these so-called "medicines" know a hell of a lot more than you do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. Don't forget we had medicines long before we had "modern" medicine . . .
The Native American had penicillin when Columbus arrived --

All of our medicines are based on natural plants -- many of which we've destroyed before

we even understood what they are capable of doing.

I hope that your daughter will be feeling well again soon -

and that no one else in the family will become ill from it.

Best wishes --




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibuprofen
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #43
48. Right
"The Native American had penicillin when Columbus arrived"

I HIGHLY doubt that. And since your a anti-vaxxer, I question you history credentials.

"All of our medicines are based on natural plants -- many of which we've destroyed before"

Yea, but alot times, to get it to work right, you'd have to graze on an entire field. I know from experience.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #48
65. Again, I am not anti-vaccination in every case... I am against MANDATES . . .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #20
55. What "MANDATE" are you talking about? Are you mandated to take a H1N1 influenza vaccine?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #55
66. Did you not read about the lawsuit by the nurses . . . ???
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Thank your replying with a question. So you are only againts mandated vaccines?
That is good. Did you not read that the nurses could wear a facemask to protect themselves if they chose not to get the vaccine?

By the way, there is not enough of any type vaccine this yr, seasonal or hini influenza vx, to mandate it for the general population. Have you not read of shortages? Even here on DU?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #67
74. I've read of alleged shortages . . . and good for the nurses . . .
re face masks -- I hadn't caught up with that --

Yes, I'm against mandating vaccines -- we've reached the point where the questions

have to be answered because we've already seen too many problems with them or with

the method whereby we're administering them to newborns.

I support the nurses -- but we need to be more careful about all of our medications --

including vaccines.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #66
136. They are primary care givers
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 11:16 PM by Confusious
It goes with the job. If they don't like, they can find another.

Hopefully not in my neighborhood.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #136
143. Evidently, the compromise is they can take a repected precaution: face masks!
And I would suggest that we all think about that simple alternative.

We have immune systems. We have natural immunities. Taking vaccines may

leave us more vulnerable to harm to our immune systems and an increased

susceptibility to new forms of viruses down the line.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mr blur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. Because, like the ridiculous Oprah and the stupid Jenny McCarthy,
he is in a position to influence the sort of dumb people who take their medical advice from celebrities. Anyone who watches TV to find out what's best for their children could hardly be said to be "pro-science".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. That's a long list of people you have who have to be "dumb" in order to make you right . . .!!
Again, this is about a MANDATE . . . this is a vaccine you like . . .

what if it was a vaccine you didn't want to take for some reason?

Or, are you going to take whatever comes along, no matter what?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. There's no shortage of dumb people...
in the anti-vaccer movement.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. There's no shortage of dumb people...
in the anti-vaccer movement.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #22
52. Here's a nice disease for you
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 03:57 AM by Confusious
Wiped out by vaccinations.... would you take it?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #52
56. Looks like the may not have had penicillin.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #56
77. Because penicillin works on small pox?
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 02:18 PM by defendandprotect
The Western European brought their diseases -- and they were quite a disease-ridden

society -- to the Native American ... in some cases, purposefully!

Viruses are not treated with penicillin . . .

except perhaps to treat secondary stages.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mr blur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #22
53. You are (delierately?) missing my point -
Anyone who takes medical advice from a TV personality is an idiot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #53
76. Let's see . . . wasn't Phil Donahue more than 15 years ago advocating universal health care?
I don't think anyone is suggesting that celebrities are pushing medications except

on TV . . . do you remember when "Doctors" were advocating smoking?

How many TV ads do you see every day for one prescription or another?

You may not know either that Western Europeans were the diseased on the planet --

and brought those diseases with them to the Native American --

sometimes purposefully!!!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. The quotations weren't anti-mandate; they were anti-vaccination, and against the germ theory of
Edited on Mon Oct-19-09 03:52 AM by LeftishBrit
disease.

To question mandates is not anti-health, but to go on TV and actively encourage people to avoid vaccination is certainly potentially anti-health.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Anti-vaccers don't like the term, 'anti-health'
They prefer to think of it as 'pro-death'

;-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
54. What "mandated vaccination" are you talking about?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
82.  Opposing mandated vaccination is anti-science
The whole point of the mandate is to ensure that the entire population gets protected, because that is the only way you can completely eradicate the disease in question. Smallpox was completely eradicated from our planet, and that only happened because of mandatory vaccination. I suppose you miss these days:





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #82
96. The mechanism by which enough people are
convinced to accept vaccination is a matter of public policy, not science.

Science can inform public policy - by telling us the risks associated with the illnesses, the risks associated with the vaccinations, the ease of transmission, and all sorts of other data. From that data we may decide that there are some illnesses so severe, and eradication so important, that it is an appropriate public policy decision to use the strong arm of the law to compel vaccination. But motivating vaccination by implementing a mandate is fundamentally a restriction on individual's right of self determination - and the choice that the public good expected to be gained by mandating vaccination outweighs the restrictions on individuals' rights is a policy decision, not a scientific one.

Opposing all manadatory vaccinations may be a stupid public policy decision, but it is not inherently anti-science.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #96
99. It's both stupid public policy and anti-science
The two go hand in hand. The reason it is stupid public policy is because it is anti-science.

It is true that the mechanism by which enough people are convinced to accept vaccination is a matter of public policy. It is also true that if a society sets as a goal the elimination of certain diseases, science says you need to have mandatory vaccinations to accomplish that goal. Therefore, any person or policy that opposes mandatory vaccinations is anti-science.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. Science does not say you have to have mandatory vaccination
It says you need near universal vaccination. They are two different things.

Universal (or whatever percent is sufficient to eliminate transmission from the currently infected people to others without antibodies) is a numbers game, with the percentage dictated by science.

Mandating vaccination is one mechanism which may be used to convince the percentage of individuals who need to be vaccinated to actually get vaccinated. It is the mechanism we have generally chosen - but it is not the only mechanism possible. Public education is another mechanism. Providing free access to vaccination is another.

Science: What percentage of the population needs to have antibodies before the disease dies out

Public policy: How do we convince that many people to get vaccinated.

Two different things.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #101
105. I never said they weren't two different things
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 04:24 PM by Nederland
Pathology, the study of diseases, says you have to have a near universal vaccination to eradicate a disease.

Sociology, the study of social behavior, says that you won't get near universal vaccination without mandates.

Both Pathology and Sociology are science, therefore "science" says you have to have mandatory vaccination to eradicate a disease.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. Nice try, but relying on sociology being a science
to try to establish that being opposed to mandating vaccination is anti-science is a real stretch.

Most scientists I know - myself included - and even many sociologists I know - my spouse included - don't accept sociology as a science. Far too much sloppiness in logic, and conclusions based on "everyone know this" axioms that are often culturally biased to start out with move it out of the realm that rejecting a sociological recommendation would be considered anti-science.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #96
125. I agree with you on all this...
but would also add that it's important to ensure that vaccinations are made freely available; otherwise, as I said in another thread, poorer people are essentially mandated NOT to have them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #125
127. Agreed - and another reason the decision
of how to motivate people to get vaccinated (including by making sure they are freely available) is a public policy decision - not a scientific one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 02:46 AM
Response to Original message
13. I think he just smokes too much weed.
Everything in moderation :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Liquorice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I was thinking the same thing. He's paranoid. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 05:01 AM
Response to Original message
19. Bill Maher is an idiot and a sexist pig.

Years ago, he was pretty funny. Then he started going off on his hate tangents. I refuse to even look at him for a minute now because I've seen what an asshat he really is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pengillian101 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #19
45. Indeed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PHIMG Donating Member (814 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
25. to be anti-vaccine seems to be the worst thing in the world on DU
it's pretty amazing.

if the vaccines are so safe and so great why do the drug companies need special laws passed to shield them from liability lawsuits?

i'm sorry but i'd rather take my chances with flu than risk winding up with some life long illness from a some bad additive that Pfizer got a special waiver for.

how much might the drug companies be spending on journalists and online commenters to attack critics of vaccines?

i asked my doctor what he thought about the Gaurdasil vaccine and he told me it was a bad idea and explained why.

lets not forget that vaccines are big business. these fuckers will kill you to meet thier quarterly numbers and they own the US congress and the FDA.

Some skepticism is in order and you don't need to be an M.D. to weigh in on the controversy. And you shouldn't be attacked for your opinion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. They're great because they work fine 99% of the time
That there must always be a small percentage of adverse reactions doesn't change that. This inevitability is why the drug companies want protection. More people dying of vaccine effects instead of the disease is a huge success story. That said, the lack of liability must, IMO, be accompanied by a government policy to pay for any problems caused by them. BTW, Vaccines are far and away the least profitable product of drug companies. They wouldn't be made at all except with subsidies and arm-twisting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #31
63. Pay attention...
... the risks make sense for something like polio, they do not make sense for something like swine flu.

I'm not against vaccines, I am against the mindless assumption that a vaccine is called for every time one is available.

There is also the very real question of the efficacy of the flu vaccine, anecdotally it rates very low among my acquaintances who say they got the worst flu ever the year they got the shot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #63
146. That depends entirely on how lethal swine flu turns out to be
That isn't known at this point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #146
148. Yes it is.......
.. it is about as lethal as any flu.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #35
49. You overestimate your importance. eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #35
57. and.....she's off!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #35
62. Yes. How much does Louis Pasteur pay me to pimp "Germ Theory" on DU.
Hmmm....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. you're right. no one should be attacked for their opinion.
we have a doc here in arizona who had 6 children. none of them ever got vaccines. they're all grown up now and healthy.

i've only had 1 flu shot in my life and i didn't feel well the next day. i'm not getting another one nor am i going to get the H1N1 shot. about 12 years ago i did get a pneumonia shot. i had pneumonia 3 times in 4 years. haven't had it since.

dr. andrew weil suggests that we take astragalus to boost the immune system.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #37
50. I hope they never go out of country

If they stay any length of time, there's all sorts of good stuff for them to catch. and bring back. and kill people. and themselves.

Canada and western Europe don't count.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #50
90. Do you just assume that anyone not you is an idiot?
Why would someone travel to some viral cesspool without the reasonable precautions?

I know I wouldn't (and have had various shots for various tropical ailments when I lived in the Amazon - all of which made me feel like crap for months), but I am not taking the flu vaccine either for various medical reasons. Does that make me a home dwelling mouth breather secretly hoping to kill you by viral infection as well.

Meh.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #90
129. Because they are anti-vax idiots

Which you would have figured out if you had paid attention and read any part of this thread.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #37
51. If that ain't the pot calling the kettle black

You probably attack republicans all the time for their opinion. But when it's YOU *HUFF* NO ONE SHOULD BE ATTACKED FOR THEIR OPINIONS.

Hypocrite.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #51
64. maybe i don't attack republicans.
so don't being calling me a hypocrite. you don't know me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #64
140. doubtful.... eom

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #51
91. So if I can paraphrase your position
He is a hypocrite because he might have, at some time in the past, criticized your favorite political party?

Does that sum it up?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #91
130. No, once again you shoot for the moon

and blow your own foot off.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #37
80. People should certainly be attacked for stupid and dangerous ideas
If it was my opinion thst the Holocaust was a hoax I certainly should be attacked. Am I comparing anti-vax nutters to Holocaust deniers? Sorta (and I therin violate Godwin's Law a little). But both sets of people are not amenable to proof otherwise and have dangerous ideas.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
conflictgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #25
44. +1
Absolutely!

Remember that the same corporations who would sell us out in so many other circumstances don't suddenly become altruists looking out for our best interests when it comes to vaccines.

When my firstborn was 10 months old they wanted me to give him a new vaccine called Rotashield. I said I wanted some time to research it and we would revisit it at the next appointment. Before the next appointment, they had pulled the vaccine from the market because it had caused deaths to some babies due to bowel obstructions. Ever since then I have never unquestionably believed that all vaccines are good. Most are, but a little healthy skepticism is a good idea. A lot of vaccines get rushed on to the market without adequate testing and I am not willing to be a guinea pig. Others may choose to get vaccinated no matter how much testing a vaccine has undergone and that is their right.

I am not in favor of forcing anyone to do anything and want the same freedom granted to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
83. But, but, but ... you are an anti-vaccer.
So of course you should be attacked for not having exactly the same position as those who attack you. How dare you voice another position or question the Orthodoxy.

I think that the skeptics network has some good points but it is also a bit of an echo chamber at times.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #83
131. Science is not Orthodoxy
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 11:01 PM by Confusious
Thats for religions, anti-vaxxers and homeopaths.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
28. War on Science.
"In May, The New England Journal of Medicine laid the blame for clusters of disease outbreaks throughout the US squarely at the feet of declining vaccination rates, while nonprofit health care provider Kaiser Permanente reported that unvaccinated children were 23 times more likely to get pertussis, a highly contagious bacterial disease that causes violent coughing and is potentially lethal to infants. In the June issue of the journal Pediatrics, Jason Glanz, an epidemiologist at Kaisers Institute for Health Research, revealed that the number of reported pertussis cases jumped from 1,000 in 1976 to 26,000 in 2004. A disease that vaccines made rare, in other words, is making a comeback. This study helps dispel one of the commonly held beliefs among vaccine-refusing parents: that their children are not at risk for vaccine-preventable diseases, Glanz says.

I used to say that the tide would turn when children started to die. Well, children have started to die, Offit says, frowning as he ticks off recent fatal cases of meningitis in unvaccinated children in Pennsylvania and Minnesota. So now Ive changed it to when enough children start to die. Because obviously, were not there yet.

The rejection of hard-won knowledge is by no means a new phenomenon. In 1905, French mathematician and scientist Henri Poincar said that the willingness to embrace pseudo-science flourished because people know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether illusion is not more consoling. Decades later, the astronomer Carl Sagan reached a similar conclusion: Science loses ground to pseudo-science because the latter seems to offer more comfort. A great many of these belief systems address real human needs that are not being met by our society, Sagan wrote of certain Americans embrace of reincarnation, channeling, and extraterrestrials. There are unsatisfied medical needs, spiritual needs, and needs for communion with the rest of the human community.

Looking back over human history, rationality has been the anomaly. Being rational takes work, education, and a sober determination to avoid making hasty inferences, even when they appear to make perfect sense. Much like infectious diseases themselves beaten back by decades of effort to vaccinate the populace the irrational lingers just below the surface, waiting for us to let down our guard."

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. +10 n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
36. He's discussing medicine with Frist?
Mr. "I don't think Terri Shiavo is in a persistent vegetative state." They're both full of crap.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ChoppinBroccoli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
39. I Usually Like Bill Maher, But On This Issue, I Hate Him
I hate him because I sat there through that entire segment AGREEING with Bill Frist. After it was over, I shouted at the TV, "Damn you, Bill Maher, for making me agree with Bill Frist!!!"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
41. exactly: it's anti-science and anti-social : people who refuse vaccinations put everyone in dange
next thing there'll be a resurgence of polio and smallpox in the U.S., just as there was a resurgence of the deadly pertussis

idiots who refuse vaccinations are scary and they jeopardize everyone else's health as well

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
conflictgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
46. An article from The Atlantic questioning how well the flu vaccine really works
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/print/200911/brownlee-h1...

Actually it's pretty good reading. It's neither pro- or anti-vaccine in my opinion, but I think it might explain how intelligent people who do believe in science could still come to the decision to skip the vaccine (without putting down people who decide to get vaccinated).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #46
59. Interesting article. Makes you wonder who exactly is anti-science.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #46
61. Bill Maher isn't saying no to just the flu vaccine. he's saying no to ALL vaccines.
And germ theory.

He's as foolish on this this issue as the creationists he loves to mock are.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
smokey nj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #46
87. Thanks for the link.
Very, very interesting article.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
93. thanks for the info....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
47. Maher is a blowhard who does the left more harm than good n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 05:11 AM
Response to Original message
58. Thanks for posting this, helps me understand where comments like this come from...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I do NOT get the flu, so I see no reason to inject a U.S. Government / Pharmaceutical cocktail in my body, just so I can experience the flu.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
era veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 06:24 AM
Response to Original message
60. Live Virus
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 06:26 AM by era veteran
All the old flu shot were made with a live virus. The oral version is made from a live virus, the shot is not. In 1976, after fighting the 1st Sgt. about getting the vaccination, I gave in and got the shot @ Ft. Knox. I was sick before I got to my car. That was a live virus vaccination. I will be getting both shots this year.....P.S. Screw you top..... P.P.S. I spent 10 days locked up in some shitty Army ward.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #60
68. Do you mean the nasal version since there isn't an oral virus?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. No, he means the oral virus.
Like the rest of his made up story.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
era veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #73
139. NOT ONE WORD IS MADE UP
That was totally uncalled for, what is your problem? I am many things but I am not a liar. You can piss up a rope.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
era veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #68
137. Yes indeed
Yes, the nasal spray is made from a live virus.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
era veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #68
138. Yes indeed
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
69. Maher is a PETA spokesman. What do you expect?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #69
78. Yeah ... what's wrong with him? Torturing animal-life so we can live is necesssary!!!
:crazy:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #69
88. Because guilt by association is pro-science?
:crazy:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
72. More Vaccine Cheerleaders, Looking out for the best interests of Merck and Baxter
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 02:15 PM by Grinchie
You guys are pretty funny, attempting to deny the links of damage to the Human Nervous system by Vaccines that have been documented for decades. I wonder if the Original Poster realizes twho Maher is Interviewing. Thats Bill Frist, defender of Terry Schiavo and a Pro-Life poster child. He was one amongst many that shot down any chance of negotiating for lowers drugs prices for Medicare Part D, and is the most fervent proponent of the removal of ANY liability for Medical Malpractice by removing your right to sue for damages in Medical Fuck ups.

I commend Bill Maher for stating the obvious, despite your assertions that it's vile contemptible nonsense. Feel free to back up your claims, because without it, you are guilty of the same thing, and that is pretty typical for a propagandist, trying to label someone other than themselves as the bad guy in hopes that people are so stupid they will latch on to your rhetoric.

It's pretty clear that you have been supping at the cup of Corporate sponsored Science, which is extremely friendly toward Pasteur on Monomorphism, enabling them to continue churning out Vaccines for a 2 Billion dollar industry that has not been tested for long term effects.

Nor will you acknowledge that vaccines are a crap shoot for many people, and that individuals make react disfferently to vaccines. Nor do you acknowledge the fact that Vaccines contain contaminants from the manufacturing process, and also contain fragments of DNA from other animals, such as chicken, pig, Horse, monkey, and you think it's OK to inject it deep within your tissues because it's "Inactivated"

You probably have never seen a small, healthy child turn autistis in a period of one month, like I have seen with one of my friends children, nor do you have any semblance of Empathy to think what the parent is now saddled with for the immediate future while taking care of the child.

I grew up walking the rounds in Major hospitals with my Father, visiting all the sick people. In my experience, the sick people were there many time due to self imposed behaviors, such as heavy drinking, poor diet, or environmental pollution. I was a believer in contemporary medicine, until I saw my father, a teaching doctor, avoiding it unless it was the last resort.

After reading about the Political Struggle that went on between Antonne Bechamp and Louis Pasteur, I can see how big business and Corporate greed would like to promote Pasteurs theory over Bechamp's, and we've been suffering for it ever since.

The vaccine cheerleaders are always so quick to demonize people that have actually done the research and have come to their own conclusions via available research, it's frightening to think that the Cheerleaders of Vaccines can even function well enough to make any informed decisions. Instead of actually learning about Biochemistry, or anatomy, or the maintenance of health and the mechanisms of disease, you'd rather waive your rights and throw away the gift of your mind and take the word of some other authority, who's motive is for more profits and the status quo.

Hey Cheerleaders, Watch this and then come back with your counterclaims.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=653144712505361...


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. More anti-vaccine cheerleaders.
Looking out for the best interests of Pestilence and Death.

Hey, goofballs, watch this then come back with your baloney.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v_85tAey9s
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #72
81. Interesting to watch the necessity here to BULLY their point of view . . .
which, IMO, always makes clear that there is a closed-mind at work --

"Only a fool never doubts" --

You guys are pretty funny, attempting to deny the links of damage to the Human Nervous system by Vaccines that have been documented for decades.

Thanks for the Gary Null video -- I used to listen to him on WBAI but don't tune into them that
much any longer. Just lost track of it.

Needless to say, NATURE's encouragement is to find out WHY these things are happening, while our
corporate-for profit medicine prefers chemical responses - costly and repetitive.
Especially where antibiotics are administered so frequently to children.

We have to get back to preventive health care -- and cut the crap with "cures."

I haven't watched the video yet -- I will now --



:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #72
86. You realize that Gary Null is an HIV/AIDS denialist, right?
Do you think that AIDS is caused by HIV, Grinchie?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #86
97. It's easy to attack the messanger rather than the message.
It's even easier to just cheery pick a comment/postion someone once took on ANOTHER subject and assume the same about a new subject.

It's intellectually lazy, but what can we expect from someone on the Monsanto payroll?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. You know what's ironic about your false claim of me working for Monsanto...
is that you've actually admitted that you work at a clinic that sells homeopathic remedies to unsuspecting patients.

As for attacking the messenger, yeah I'm perfectly happy to attack any HIV/AIDS Denialist. And I don't really think such a subject is that far removed from the subject of the anti-vaccination movement.

As we've seen before, they're often the same people, using the same sort of buffoonery.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #98
103. As far as I know that is true. After all I saw it posted on DU.
YOu mean you don't work for Monsanto? IF not then I apologize. So it's Merck, then? Bwahahahaha.

And what I said, for the record, is that the clinic I own has a few docs on staff who took training in homeopathy for the expressed purpose of advising our clients that walk through the door asking questions about homeopathics. We don't sell them but we do advise patients. If homeopathics are mentioned in a treatment plan it is in the plane of "well it can't hurt and it might help."

As for me I am perfectly happy to attack someone who is an unsufferable prigish asshole to lots of people on DU. You, sir, are an absolutist and in the same boat philosophically as the RW mega-churches that teach absolutism. My guess is that you are involved in research in some way or wish you were and have never had to deal with a patient facing the end of their life or the loss of some part of their life or body. At the clinic level we can't afford to have your cavalier attitude. We deal with people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #103
108. You work for snake oil salesmen.
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 04:50 PM by HiFructosePronSyrup
You've got no basis for claiming moral high ground.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #108
118. Who the hell do you work for.. Oh wait, that's easy.. Pro Big Pharma, Pro GMO, Anti-fact
Yep Pron, you are truly a fan boy for the system that thrives on ill health, poor nutrition, and sheer stupidity.

Your posts are full of such anger, it's pretty clear that even you don't agree with the positions you peddle here on DU.

Thankfully, you are as transparent as a sheet of Cellophane, and as equally flimsy. The first breeze that comes along to disrupt your position and you crumple and get blown into the bushes.

Of course, your claim about Homeopathy relies on a stereotypical label, yet avoids the real issues that we are now seeing in the contamination of our Municipal water supply with minute quantities of endocrinal disruptors, which still have major effects, which indirectly proves that very tiny amounts of certain molecules can have significant effects on the human body.

You have your blinders on, and just plain refuse to look at any science other than the mainstream, Corporate Branded, patented Money making science while ignoring the breadth of Biology.

Go ahead and take your pills, submit to your Crap shoot of Influenza Vaccines, and live inside your little box. Just don't expect the people that have done the research and found the corruption in the system to welcome your charade at healthcare.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #118
122. Are you a biologist?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #118
123. Actually, I don't.
But even if I went out and applied to them, and got a job with them, it'd still be morally superior to what you do for a living.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #118
133. You are full of it.
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 11:18 PM by Confusious
"Of course, your claim about Homeopathy relies on a stereotypical label, yet avoids the real issues that we are now seeing in the contamination of our Municipal water supply with minute quantities of endocrinal disruptors, which still have major effects, which indirectly proves that very tiny amounts of certain molecules can have significant effects on the human body."

Tiny amounts yes, but 5 billion times more then what is sold in homeopathic remedies.

"d just plain refuse to look at any science other than the mainstream"

Mainstream is mainstream because it is observable and repeatable, unlike homeopathy

"research and found the corruption in the system"

Might look closer to you own on that one. Homeopathy = faith healer. Both prey on desperate people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #103
132. I second your lack of moral ground

Snake oil salesman. Just as bad as a faith healer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #86
114. The Corporations have been tinkering with Biological Agents for decades
They've seen fit to inject foreign DNA into millions of Humans and call it a cure.

Yet, we have one of the sickest populations on the planet whose population is not subjected to War, Famine and extreme pollution.

HIV is a reality of the Human body being tricked into working against itself. So is Cancer for that matter, so whatever the mechanism, we better pay attention to what we subject our bodies to, lest we overwhelm the delicate balance and create an environment where these diseases take off.

For all we know, it's DNA that has crossed the species barrier, and may be as simple as a perfectly composed protein chain. Since modern Science likes to claim that Viri are inert until they have a host, we really don't know what the hell they are do we?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #114
116. Umm...actually we do know what the HIV virus is. And we know it does not have DNA.
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 06:21 PM by SemiCharmedQuark
The genetic material of HIV is RNA.

Here's a nice image of it:



and here's one from an electron microscope:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #114
117. You've conveniently dodged the question.
It's a simple question.

Answer the question.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #117
120. He already said he's a supporter of pleomorphic theory.
Right before the lecture on how we should actually learn about biochemistry and anatomy.

Again, I would love to know where he did his learning. I'm guessing Google U.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #120
121. Oh I know.
I'd just like to see him state emphatically and unequivocally his opinion that HIV does not cause AIDS.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #114
134. They've seen fit to inject foreign DNA into millions of Humans and call it a cure.

They wiped out smallpox doing that

do you dispute that?

If you do, you sir, are quite an idiot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #72
102. Watched the video -- everyone should . . . here's link --
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=653144712505361...

Thanks again -- I'll be passing it along --

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #72
110. I could write an equally "convincing" post about creationism and global warming denialism.
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 05:47 PM by BzaDem
I can talk about how both of the above are obvious truths, instead of vile contemptible nonsense. I can cite anecdotal evidence and bad science to prove my point. I can talk about how those in favor of doing something about climage change are simply cheerleaders in the pocket of solar energy companies. I could talk about how instead of actually learning science and climate change, they would rather waive their rights and throw away the gift of their mind and take the word of some other authority, who's motive is for more profits and policies that would enhance those profits. I could even post a "moon landing didn't happen" video and say something like "Hey Cheerleaders, Watch this and then come back with your counterclaims."

Doing so wouldn't make me any less anti-science and anti-reality than you are. There comes a point where whether you are right or wrong simply depends on the position you take. You are anti-vaccine as a general proposition. Therefore, you are wrong. The science has evolved to the point where it really is as simple as that.

I don't particularly care about the tiny uninformed minority like you, since other than posting on a message board, you really don't have a lot of opportunities to spread your anti-science bullshit and harm other people with it. If you, like Bill Maher, think that the large number of healthy people who die of the swine flu weren't really healthy because they ate jello or were exposed to environmental polution or had too high an "aggregate toxicity" ( :rofl:), I don't care. I do care when people like Bill Maher have the opportunity to spread that snake oil to millions of people (and when networks like HBO implicitly endorse that message).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #72
115. Where'd you get your degree in biochemistry? I'd love to know which school promotes pleomorphism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
79. FYI-free speech is THE LAW in the U.S. & If you don't like it-too fucking bad.
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 02:28 PM by earth mom
GO BILL!!! :yourock:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #79
89. What's this got to do with free speech?
The KKK has the right to protest outside of the homes of holocaust survivors.

That doesn't mean it's a good thing to do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #79
92. yes, free speech is the law but its my free speech to state his position is both stupid and
anti science and probably brought around by too many years of killing brain cells with pot
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #92
104. Watch the video -- capitalism isn't pro-science, it's pro-profit . . . .
and if you don't think that profit-driven medicine can effect you and your

family, you should think again --

Here's the link to the video --

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=653144712505361...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. vaccines are the least profitable drugs. its much more profit to make sure you get sick
and treat you.

vaccines have a high cost of production and very low profitability
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #107
128. Watch the video . . . and you will see how profitable vaccines are --
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 10:41 PM by defendandprotect
and listen to the Mother with the autistic child --

who's struggling to give him the care he needs --

and will need all of his life --!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #128
135. Total bullshit

sodium is deadly
Chlorine is deadly

You need sodium chloride to live

Mercury is bad, but in another molecule, it may be helpful or inert.

If you doubt the science, take a chemistry class.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #135
141. It's obvious that's what you think of opinions of others .....
Edited on Wed Oct-21-09 01:09 AM by defendandprotect
and it's clear that kind of an attitude towards parents and others questioning and
challenging vaccines is a kind of absolutism which is always going to be a mistake.

Mercury was the first mistake --

Women already have high enough mercury in their bodies to infect their children.
65 micrograms of mercury for a child that weighs 10lbs. isn't science, it's criminal.

The vaccines in themselves are toxic.

Parents have to have the right to "opt out"/CHOICE over something that carries the risk
of injury or death.

And especially when children show adverse symptoms after the first doses and/or are ill
as was the case one parent related to Congress. The doctor refused to delay the vaccinations
while threatening the Mother with calling the CDC. Her child is now autistic.

We have generations of children with unexplainable learning disabilities.

And as the FDA representative made clear: "We don't know, one way or the other!

Any American who can still dream that our government agencies are independent -- especially
after the Bush years -- is living in an unknowing comfort zone which may harm their own families.

Any American who can still believe in capitalism as a system which values anything other than
profit - or as something which delivers altruistic medicine -- is certainly sound asleep.

Meanwhile, I've never been anti-vaccine -- I've been for better research and more caution.

However, seeing the blind support by a few here for vaccines at all costs -- and even for
"MANDATES" -- and the failure of the industry itself to properly investigate these cases --
and to have continued on for so long "not knowing, one way or the other" while still pushing
vaccines with mercury has made me question now whether this whole thing is just total fraud.

What America is best at is creating new diseases -- and each one of them shouts to us that
our immune systems have been harmed.

Vaccines are very likely playing a role in that harm.







Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #141
144. You have no idea what you are talking about
Edited on Wed Oct-21-09 02:32 AM by Confusious
thermisol





A little lesson in chemistry. See the Hg? That's mercury. see the S? that's sulfur.

It is an entire molecule. Mercury in a molocule does not have the same effect as pure Mercury, just as sodium, which would ignite when it comes in contact with water, does not have the same effect when in Salt ( Sodium Chloride, if you didn't know, which you are proving you don't )

Studies have proved there is no link between Thermisol and autism, its just fearmongering. You have more of chance of getting hit by lightning then having a problem with a vaccine.

http://www.nature.com/clpt/journal/v82/n6/abs/6100407a....

The only mandate is for the nurses and doctors. If your going to be a doctor or nurse you should expect it or get another job, just as I have to expect that I'm going to have to work with electricity, and maybe get electrocuted, when I work on computers. Deal with it or find another line of work.

Vaccines are made from the same diseases that are going to enter our body, whether we take the vaccines or not. Small pox was wiped out, and other diseases brought under control by vaccines. 40 years ago people would dread polio season. How soon we forget.

Maybe you'd like to go back and spend a life in this:




Why don't you admit it, your entire argument is based on irrational fear. There is no science and no data to back up your position.

"What America is best at is creating new diseases"

What new diseases would they be? Or would they just be noticed with new medical technology? Of course you are suspicious of science because you don't understand it ( which you already proved ) so of course you would blame science for creating the diseases.

"It's obvious that's what you think of opinions of others ....."

I'm taking a stand against stoopid, which your position is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #144
145. That's . . . MOLECULE ... and your IRON LUNG isn't "fear-mongering" . . .????
Secondly, are you suggesting that women have "pure mercury" in their bodies?
Are you suggesting that it's "pure mercury" which causes harm to animals/monkeys
who are tested and where the reactions are the same as are seen in children --
neurological harm?

Are you suggesting that the doctors who are telling you that the mercury in the vaccines
is harmful are wrong?

Studies have proved there is no link between Thermisol and autism, its just fearmongering. You have more of chance of getting hit by lightning then having a problem with a vaccine.

To the contrary . . . studies have shown just the opposite.
And, further, that we have actual bad batches of vaccines which cause death.

There are now efforts to give a 12 year old more than 50 doses of 17 vaccines!

We are no longer talking about Smallpox and polio --

we are talking about FLU --

Maybe you haven't noticed cancer, either -- now 1 in every 3 Americans?
Or HIV/AIDS . . . more than likely having infected Africa with polio vaccine having
been cultured in monkey glands!


I'm taking a stand against stoopid, which your position is.

We're all taking a stand against ignorance - which most often begins with absolutism!


There's an old saying well worth repeating --

"Americans are really smart about really stupid things!"

-- A woman from the Bikini Islands which we had just bombed with atomic weapons



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #145
147. Do you not pay attention to things going on in the world?
Edited on Wed Oct-21-09 03:53 AM by Confusious
"That's . . . MOLECULE ... and your IRON LUNG isn't "fear-mongering" . . .????"

Saying the "Vaccinations are dangerous" or we should "study it more" is fearmongering because you have no facts to back up your case. I have history and science, so they are facts.

Spelling: The second to last gasp of the dying argument.

"Secondly, are you suggesting that women have "pure mercury" in their bodies?
Are you suggesting that it's "pure mercury" which causes harm to animals/monkeys
who are tested and where the reactions are the same as are seen in children --
neurological harm?"

Yes, women have PURE MERCURY in their blood from eating fish. and the environment. If it's called "mercury" then its pure, that's how naming goes in the chemistry bizz. Mercury causes neurological damage. Mercury in another molecule has totally different properties then "Pure Mercury". Most of the United States rivers and streams are polluted with pure mercury from coal plants.

It's not from vaccines.

"Are you suggesting that the doctors who are telling you that the mercury in the vaccines is harmful are wrong?"

Yes. If they are calling it Mercury in the first place, then they are not doctors. They should be calling by its proper name. Anyone who has a science degree would do that.

One more thing: Sulfur only makes covalent bonds, so it not ionize. ( I could say look it up, but I know you won't. You'd rather spout fearmongering nonsense)

"To the contrary . . . studies have shown just the opposite. And, further, that we have actual bad batches of vaccines which cause death."

show me a REAL scientific study. Not someone's opinion. I included a link to a *REAL* study, which you probably glazed over.
Water causes death, should we not shower? cars cause death, should we not drive? Sometimes these things happen. The benefits outweigh the risk. And if I got a shot and died, my opinion would not change.

Polio is still around, waiting to come back. Measles, mumps, rubella, typhus, tuberculosis, all still around, waiting to knock on your door. The flu kills 36,000 per year. Show me a study that says the vaccine kills just as many, not just an opinion.

"Maybe you haven't noticed cancer, either -- now 1 in every 3 Americans?
Or HIV/AIDS . . . more than likely having infected Africa with polio vaccine having
been cultured in monkey glands!"

Cancer has nothing to do with vaccines, or haven't you noticed all the shit in the environment these days. The entire paragraph is anti-science paranoia bullshit. Nice to see you let your true colors fly.

"Americans are really smart about really stupid things!"

More anti-science bullshit. You may thing vaccines are stupid, but tell that to all the people whose lives have been saved by vaccines ( Including mine: I am old enough to have gotten the smallpox vaccination )

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #147
151. Like most of us here, we only hang on your every word ... your every proclamation....


Saying the "Vaccinations are dangerous" or we should "study it more" is fearmongering because you have no facts to back up your case. I have history and science, so they are facts.

Questioning and challenging corporations is "fear mongering" -- !!!

Evidently, this went over your head . . .

Spelling: The second to last gasp of the dying argument.

It's but one more example of human error.

Yes, women have PURE MERCURY in their blood from eating fish. and the environment.

But that Mercury doesn't count in being passed onto the embryo?
Nor do we assess, evidently, the amount in the woman's body or passed onto the child?
And, of course, mercury does neurological damage.

(Let's also not forget the rocket fuel which women in 37 states have in their breast milk!)

Again, we are not simply talking about the MERCURY MISTAKE . . . we are talking about
vaccines being toxic in themselves.

Yes. If they are calling it Mercury in the first place, then they are not doctors. They should be calling by its proper name. Anyone who has a science degree would do that.

So doctors who call "mercury" ... eh, mercury, are not doctors because they call it "mercury."????
And there was no "Mercury" in the vaccines - ever?
Everyone has lied, but you?


Water causes death, should we not shower? cars cause death, should we not drive? Sometimes these things happen. The benefits outweigh the risk. And if I got a shot and died, my opinion would not change.

Now . . . that's kinda the stuff that gets you put on ignore.


Again, we are not talking about Polio nor the polio vaccine -- you are.

When you talk about tuberculosis, maybe you want to think about the efforts by the Bush administration
to bring it back -- and 40 years of men spitting everywhere, including on our public streets!

Nature is sending you a message with these illnesses --


The entire paragraph is anti-science paranoia bullshit. Nice to see you let your true colors fly.

"Americans are really smart about really stupid things!"


And, see, this is more of that kinda over the top personal garbage that gets you on ignore.

But, I guess someone would agree with you that it was smart of America to drop atomic weapons

everywhere?

And, I'll repeat, the more I see of responses like yours, the more certain I am that we need wider

investigation and research into the illnesses of these children and the many thousands dead because

of these vaccines.

If the many pharmaceutical scandals haven't woken up Americans to our need to gain control over

corporatism and corporate-medicine, then I think this issue with the vaccines will do it!

Bye --

You're on ignore --
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #128
150. just because a child has autism doesnt make the vaccine-autism correlations, causation.
watching one video doesnt change the facts about vaccine

the only other group of people i have seen who are antivaccine, are illiterate people in india. in their case its sad. literate people choosing propoganda and tinfoil theories, to science, is perhaps just tragic
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #150
153. Neither does it make the vaccine non-correlated, non-causal ---
The "facts" about vaccines are coming from corporate manufacturers . . .

If you trust them and Bush's FDA, dandy.

There are many videos and many studies --

"Only fools never doubt" --

- Shakespeare

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #153
154. vaccines have existed before bush's fda and i do trust the scientific community
and actually studies on correlations. not random videos
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #154
155. The FDA has long been known as "Monsanto's FDA" . . . and there were two Bush presidencies ...
The right wing has been in charge of government at every level long enough to
corrupt every part of government and its agencies --

The "scientific community" is actually corporate -- research is paid for by taxpayers
and then farmed out to private companies to profit from them.

EVERY one of the pharmaceutical companies has been involved in defrauding the government
in the Medicare/Medicare programs -- See: Sen. Bernie Sanders reports on this.

That certainly earns my trust!!!

There are now and have always been studies which support harmful effects of vaccines.

Meanwhile, we need more research into autism and the effects these children have been
suffering - including now 30 years of "attention deficit" problems with children.
And still other problems which seem to be related to the vaccines.

And the drug companies know that this cat is coming out of the bag big time!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #79
109. Objecting to what someone says isn't denying them free speech
Unless you also demand that they be arrested for it.

Republicans and Tories have free speech, but we can still object to what they say.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #79
113. ROFLOL...please tell us what you believe the definition of free speech is?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #79
119. Would you be saying the same thing if Bill were denying the holocaust?
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 06:27 PM by BzaDem
After all, that is allowed under free speech.

I assume you wouldn't be saying "Go Bill" if he were saying that.

The real reason you posted this isn't because you like free speech. It is because you support the harmful bullshit he is peddling. Because it is much easier to pretend you are posting to defend "free speech" (which as an abstract concept is widely supported), than it is to defend his anti-vaccine stance (which at the very least is rightly not accepted by most people).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
94. quick... a Left Leaning Comedian is being thrown under the bus
here's your chance righties!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. No shit...fuckers be frothin' at the mouth lol
Some people really do need to get the fuck over themselves.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BolivarianHero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
100. Who cares?
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 03:52 PM by BolivarianHero
He places blind faith in Israel; such people are bound to be a bit off.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
111. The choice not to get a vaccine is not a choice to take no risk,
The choice not to get a vaccine is not a choice to take no risk, he says. Its just a choice to take a different risk, and we need to be better about saying, Heres what that different risk looks like. Dying of Hib meningitis is a horrible, ugly way to die.

Getting the measles is no walk in the park, either not for you or those who come near you. In 2005, a 17-year-old Indiana girl got infected on a trip to Bucharest, Romania. On the return flight home, she was congested, coughing, and feverish but had no rash. The next day, without realizing she was contagious, she went to a church gathering of 500 people. She was there just a few hours. Of the 500 people present, about 450 had either been vaccinated or had developed a natural immunity. Two people in that group had vaccination failure and got measles. Thirty-two people who had not been vaccinated and therefore had no resistance to measles also got sick. Did the girl encounter each of these people face-to-face in her brief visit to the picnic? No. All you have to do to get the measles is to inhabit the airspace of a contagious person within two hours of them being there.

The frightening implications of this kind of anecdote were illustrated by a 2002 study published in The Journal of Infectious Diseases. Looking at 3,292 cases of measles in the Netherlands, the study found that the risk of contracting the disease was lower if you were completely unvaccinated and living in a highly vaccinated community than if you were completely vaccinated and living in a relatively unvaccinated community. Why? Because vaccines dont always take. What does that mean? You cant minimize your individual risk unless your herd, your friends and neighbors, also buy in.

...In 19th-century England, he explains, Jenners smallpox vaccine was known to be effective. But despite the Compulsory Vaccination Act of 1853, many people still refused to take it, and thousands died unnecessarily. That was the birth of the anti-vaccine movement, he says, adding that then as now those at the forefront were great at mass marketing. It was a print-oriented society. They were great pamphleteers. And by the 1890s, they had driven immunization rates down to the 20 percent range.

Immediately, smallpox took off again in England and Wales, killing 1,455 in 1893. Ireland and Scotland, by contrast, didnt have any anti-vaccine movement and had very high immunization rates and very little incidence of smallpox disease and death, he says, taking a breath. Youd like to think we would learn.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/7 /

People aren't isolated islands or self controlled mini environments in a bubble. Either everyone works together to manage risk in order to benefit the most number of people or we all do our own thing and sit back and watch disease wipe out tens of thousands time after time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #111
112. The sad part is that I think some of the "aggregate toxicity" theorists are OK with that.
For each person that died, they will go down the list of reasons why they weren't healthy (and therefore apparently deserved to die). Bill Maher cited eating Jello as one of these reasons. I'm sure these fortune tellers could find similar reasons for each person who died for whom the evil Western Medicine proponents blamed their death on the measles.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #111
142. We can't do harm to the few in order to "save" the many . . .
that's just not going to ever be seen as any kind of justice.

Females often purposefully expose themselves to German measles -- immunizing themselves
at a convenient time rather than when they are pregnant.

I've actually been in a location where I could immediately feel that something in the
environment had struck me. 24 hours later I had a serious flu which went on overnight
actively -- and which left me strung out for another 24 hours -- and where I still felt
nauseous over food for more than 3 weeks.

Again, you can't "risk" the death of thousands of children and autism for tens of thousands
and really believe that such a fascist system is going to be tolerated?

Also, it time that we began to pay attention to our immune systems and why they are being
so heavily impacted -- and why we continue to create new diseases, increasing in numbers.
We have to look at the great increases in over 40 years or more of learning disabilities
in children. These things cannot be ignored any longer.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #142
149. Proposing to harm the many based on a "belief" is insane.
There isn't a single study that proves the connection between autism and vaccines.
Luckily this anti vaccine craziness is being refuted more and more by the facts and reminders of what has actually happened throughout history when hysteria, unsubstantiated claims and "beliefs" trump good science.

Scientifically prove what you claim, the onus is on you. Until that happens vaccines work.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #149
152. On the contrary, there are many studies . . .
which show connections to these vaccines --

and where studies have been done on the children, it is also clear.

This is looking like just more corporate money-making at the expense of citizens

and their families.

The kind of "science" that kills thousands of children with vaccines and maims

tens of thousands more is a form of science we should rid ourselves of.

Corporations are in business for profit -- and their greed has grown to epidemic proportions!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Aug 20th 2014, 06:10 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC