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Is it just me, or are there some DU'ers cheering for higher gas prices?

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Fading Captain Donating Member (895 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 02:35 PM
Original message
Is it just me, or are there some DU'ers cheering for higher gas prices?
I ask, because whenever there is a thread on high gas prices, DUers line up with the "No sympathy for SUV drivers" schtick.

I think SUVs are kind of ridiculous myself.
I also understand people who want to reduce consumption of gas.

But high gas prices hurt working Americans who drive 40 minutes to work. I drive 45 minutes to work every day in a Ford Focus. And $4 dollar gas will eat me up. I'd love to work in the town where I live, but that isn't possible. Even if I could sell my house, all it would do is force my wife to drive 45 minutes to work. It's unlikely she would find work in the town I work in.

So, next time your about to cheer for high gas prices because it validates your political agenda, stop, and consider that Democrats are supposed to care about the average American worker.

High gas prices may be inevitable. But it sure would be nice if people didn't cheer on the pain it will cause.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. There's always one "I traded in my car for a bicycle years ago"
type. . But I ignore it.
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Libertas1776 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
39. I can't stand those people. nt
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. Wouldn't be surprised if some of them were Goldmine Sucks/WallStreet shills
who make money from the criminal "speculation" racket that artificially raises oil prices.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. It would also hurt a potential recovery but some people here don't seem to want that either.
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Regret My New Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. Who doesn't want the economy to recover?
I've seen pessimistic opinions on if it will recover, but I haven't seen anyone rooting for it to fail completely.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. I've seen some that literally want everything to crash and burn so it can be recreated into some
Edited on Sat Oct-17-09 04:44 PM by Pirate Smile
different, Utopian type of economy. They don't seem to realize or care about the amount of damage that would cause to millions (billions) throughout the country and the world. It is a fantasy.
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #33
50. I've seen it as well. n/t
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
73. yep nt
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. We're all going to have to pay those prices so I don't think
what you've been hearing is any cheering.

Gas prices are going to go up as the dollar goes down. Eventually, that will force Congress to take the necessary step to shore up the dollar: raise taxes. Since the working and middle classes are tapped out, that means the rich are just going to have to cough up whether or not they like it.

But no, we're all going to get hurt if gas prices go up as far as they did during Stupid's oil man administration. I don't think they'll go that far, but the north side of three bucks a gallon is certainly not out of the question.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Raising taxes alone will not shore up dollar.
Reducing deficits, getting to a balance budget, paying down some of this record $11T (going to $20T by end of Obama second term) debt will.

Sadly I think Congress will use the falling dollar as an excuse to raise taxes and then raise sending right along side it.

We likely will only learn when there is a worldwide boycott of dollar backed assets. Interest on national debt spikes to something in the 13% range, paying that interest becomes 40% of federal budget, dollar falls another 30%, and gasoline is $8 a gallon.

Then *maybe* Congress will realize the awful simple reality. YOU CANT SPEND MORE MONEY THEN YOU HAVE.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. It a typical attitude that reveals contempt for working people and rural people
I don't think it is common on DU, but they are a loud, pouty minority.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
42. You know what you call people who don't own cars? Passengers and beggars.
"Hey, I've got a great idea! Why we go to the Outlet Mall together..... and we can stop by that new supermarket on the way home."

"Oh, you're going to Home Depot? Would it be too much trouble to pick me up on (not) the way? I might need a couple of things."

I used to get that kind of crap all the time when I lived in the nearby suburbs of a major city or two. You know, I really don't mind helping someone out, and I usually don't mind going out of my way and spending my time, but when the same person or someone similar then gets all self righteous about people who own vehicles in general or trucks in particular, it's a bit much. Not as bad as when they brag about how much money they save though.

Clue to the urban chic: The premium wine in your favorite "little cafe" gets there by car, a salesman (usually a woman actually) brings it. The rare, weird, and expensive ingredients in your innovative nouvelle, usually travel by car or van. Your neighborhood market isn't big enough to get deliveries, he drives to the produce market at 4 or 5 am to get your avocado. Just about everything in your doctor's office gets there by car, including your test results. Most of the people who do the scut work in your pricey little neighborhood can't afford to live there, and couldn't even if they got rid of their cars.

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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #42
55. +1 nt
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Journeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. Plenty of chaos junkies all around, not just on this board. . .
Just as there are those children who hope for a "snow day" to cancel classes, there'll always be those who'll cheer when the toilet backs up and applaud when dinner is burned. Happens throughout society, not just on this board.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. I have ZERO sympathy for people who drive gas guzzlers when they
have an alternative. Some poorer people are stuck driving what they have, which might be an older guzzler. Plenty of rich people drive them as status symbols, which ought to be a capital offense.

The up side to higher gas prices is that it discourages waste and excess driving. The down side is that hurts the little guy.

I don't see anybody cheering on the pain it causes. You have an overactive imagination.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
67. I own a 3/4 ton pick up that gets 10 mpg
I own a 32 ft. RV. When I tow it, I get 6 mpg. I can afford the gas. That doesn't mean I enjoy 4 bucks a gal. I'm retired. I enjoy traveling.
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #67
75. I guess if you have a good time
nothing else matters does it?
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
8. It's not just you.
There have been several OP's here wishing for a larger, deeper economic collapse of any type so that a real liberal agenda can be pushed through. Some posters think it's OK to break a few eggs (people's livelihoods) for the purpose of making their omelet (liberal utopia).
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
9. Perverse, but anticipatory
Car culture is a millstone around the neck of the industrialized world, particularly America, and now all of Asia lusts for private automobiles. It is one of those things we MUST change, starting today.

I'm not calling for overnight change, just that we no longer delay dealing with this; our energy and resource problems will require a long-term commitment to solve. As you say, your own situation has you caught in a bad place. I, too, am not well-heeled, and $4/gallon gas will cut into my income as well.

Thinking about the political and social changes we must make in the next 20-50 years shows just how screwed we are. On the other hand, we've had tougher challenges. So I don't have any answers except to say that most of the gloating is akin to gallows humor.

--d!
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
11. I think that as long as we can buy cheap gas, we will never really
solve our energy problems. $4.00 a gallon is unheard of in Europe, but here it's like the end of the world.

I am not cheering for higher gas prices especially in this economy but eventually we need to bite the bullet and revamp our public transportation system to accommodate everyone.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
12. Americans need to wean themselves off of their petroleum addiction
and their wasteful habits.

That's the bottom line- and anything that moves people in that direction is in the long run beneficial- and necessary for everyone's economic survival.
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
13. Considering it hurts poor people disproportionately
I suspect their glee is a bit misplaced.
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safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. This is not glee, however,
when the economy and employment show signs of improvement, gas prices go up. If we could trade 4% or less unemployment for $5 gas, I'd take it. In the mean time higher mpg cars can help to offset this real world problem of higher employment>higher gas prices.
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. That sounds like a false dichotomy
It's best to take revenue from those who can best afford it. Fuel efficiencies can be regulated without disproportionally causing suffering on the poorest Americans. A fuel tax might make sense if it weren't for the fact that the richest 1% have almost half the wealth in this country.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
14. If we go back to $4.00 per gallon...?
Edited on Sat Oct-17-09 03:02 PM by kentuck
that would be the final nail in the coffin for the hope of a recovery. That would sink the economy. After the banks and the insurance companies, the oil companies should be regulated and taxed.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
15. Until gas prices are high for a long period of time, this country won't support...
...alternatives the way we need to in order to transition to a true green economy.

Already big-ass trucks and SUVs are being purchased again, as if we never had those high prices.

I'd like to see a giant gas tax going toward green energy and help for those who qualify. (Those who don't drive gas hogs, make a modest living and must travel to work.)
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demosincebirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. When a guy/gal says that money isn't important, ask him/her
how much he has...and when a guy says that sex isn't important, check and see who's he's married to.
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
16. These are often the same people pissed that the Dow hit 10,000
I understand, and sympathize with, the populist impulse against Wall Street, but I suspect that cheering for the market to implode isn't really about well-founded hostility towards "The Man", but rather, part of an overall drive that pathologically wants everything to fail, collapse, and descend into utter chaos - human toll be damned. These people want to be right no matter the cost, and regardless of the facts. The obverse side of the same coin that the teabaggers represent.

For better or ill, many middle and working class Americans have their already-depleted retirement funds tied into the market through simple savings accounts, CD's, 401k's, IRA's, and mutual funds. Sure, I am all for the Wall Street fat cats getting their due, but I just can't bring myself to root for people's life savings taking a hit. Yes, I know that the fat cats are at fault for this mess, but the "system" isn't being dismantled and rebuilt from scratch anytime in this young century. We can go after them, and at the same time, help rebuild at least part of what was lost for many well-meaning, hard-working people. Yes, that means pushing for progressive taxation and other measures. But if any part of a rebuilding effort is tied into the Dow at some level and in some way, then so be it. I don't have to necessarily root for it to hit 10,000, but I surely don't feel comfortable waving my pom-pom's for a Second Great Depression either. We're close enough as it is.

So yes, the gas price issue is a part of this pathology on DU. Middle and working class people sometimes have long commutes, and can't afford hybrids, etc. even as many drive gas-sensible cars and not SUV's. So this crowd claims to be a champion of the middle and working classes, but are willing to "teach them a lesson" and have them "pay the price". Burn the village in order to save it, et al.

Being right, and being better than others less enlightened than they, is an honored DU pastime for a select few.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
43. And also the same people who think if it all collapses, we'll become a communist utopia
where there's no money at all, everyone gets whatever they need, no one has to work for anyone else, and all government services are provided by money that appears out of nowhere by magic just because of the pure goodness of the people's hatred for business, money-making, and financial enterprise.

Because we all know that the universe wants to fire up the magic money-machine for us, but we damn capitalists keep it from happening.
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GentryDixon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
51. For sure.
I got lectured by an elitist on this site about the type of coffee that was acceptable after a comment I made about my husband reheating his coffee in the microwave.



:puke:
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
17. Some SUVs get decent mileage.
:shrug:
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
18. "Some DU-ers" will always say or think something ridiculous.
One day it may be your turn to do it (I've already taken my turn a few times)

That's just the nature of a message board with over 150,000 active users.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
20. We're seriously considering buying an SUV...
It's a Ford Escape hybrid that gets 28 mpg. It would fit our lifestyle plus save, too. Not all SUVs are created equal. :)
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. The latest 2wd Escape hybrid does better than that
Even the Chevy Equinox gets 32mpg on the highway. There's some decent choices out there if your mission requires a SUV.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. I thought the Chevy one was about the same mpg...thanks for that!
We're test driving next weekend. Oh, and husband wants 4 wheel drive. Thanks!
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. They are, roughly the same
The new 2wd Escape Hybrid does about 31 mpg on the highway IIRC and I'm sure it does considerably better in town.

Hybrids typically do better for city or mixed driving and conventional drivetrains do better for highway driving where the hybrid advantages are nullified.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
23. Yeah. The Culture Warriors love shit like this.nt
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Chemisse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
25. I drive an hour to work in my Ford Focus
In my rural area, I have no other choice.

High gas prices really hurt rural communities hard. Not only is it costlier to commute, but the prices in supermarkets reflect the cost of the fuel to get the food here.
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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
27. High gasoline
Edited on Sat Oct-17-09 04:02 PM by billh58
prices are definitely a drain on income, but by comparison our European cousins have been paying through the nose for decades:

http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2008/04/european-gas-price...

Of course, that doesn't lessen the pain over here, but the wakeup call about ostentatious gas guzzlers, the need for government-mandated fuel efficiency, and the use of progressive taxation was long overdue. The days of the 4-car family may need a serious review, and affordable and convenient taxpayer-subsidized public transportation should be the focus of governments at all levels, from city to federal.
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
28. the "automobile apartheid" droolers are my favorite,
because naturally increased gas prices won't have an impact on public transit...

I am from California and I like to drive, go to hell.
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Kievan Rus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
29. We do need better public transit in America
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. yeah, and higher gas prices are going to help that along?
When gas prices went through the roof last year bus service was getting CUT BACK because of the short-fall.
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. Actually they can, we just don't do it in the US
Europeans use high fuel taxes to subsidize public transportation. The result is a very robust public transportation system that actually is a viable alternative in the vast majority of situations and it's cheaper and faster. In the US we've decided to trade more pollution, higher costs, and less efficiency so people can maintain their facade of pseudo rugged individualism.
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taterguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. It's a bit dishonest to say that high fuel taxes subsidize public transportation
In the US, gas taxes don't come anywhere close to covering what the government spends building and maintaining roads. So automobile usage ends up being heavily subsidized by general revenue funds.

In Europe they simply choose to subsidize automobile usage a bit less and invest more in mass transit.
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. I'm not sure where that rumor got started, but it's more than just a bit dishonest
Only recently has the HTF been unable to meet it's obligations and that's because the spike in fuel prices has greatly reduced consumption over the past couple of years. When you factor in things like the billions of earmarks that have nothing to do with auto transportation, the difference becomes negligible.

In many European countries, fuel tax accounts for 50-70% of the total price compared to 17% in the US. The difference is night and day.
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taterguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. The "rumor" got started by reading budgets
Take the amount of money the government spends building, maintaining roads and providing other services for motorists.

Subtract the amount of revenue the government collects exclusively from motorists.

The difference is the amount the government subsidizes automobile usage.

In my city of 200K the difference is several million dollars a year.

The HTF isn't the government's only expense when it comes to automobiles.

But of course no one knows the exact amount we're talking about. You'd have to analyze every municipal, state and federal budget. As far as I know, no one's ever bothered doing that.

And let's not even get into the portion of the defense budget that exists to protect oil fields.
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #45
60. That's exactly what the HTF is for
It's a depository of fuel taxes with disbursements going directly to finance road and bridge costs. It's not rocket surgery. The HTF has been essentially pay as you go since 1956. An the HTF does subsidize mass transit, although to a very small degree. By law, the federal government CAN'T reimburse states for highway and bridge projects unless it comes out of the HTF. The federal government can infuse money into the HTF from the general fund, but it must be approved by congress. This did happen last year for reasons that I listed.

States budgets are less and can much less afford to subsidize road expenses outside of fuel tax receipts and there's little need to since most states charge as much fuel tax as is needed. Local governments can and sometimes do finance road projects by other means, and usually this happens by property taxes, but it's assumed that local citizen property owners and businesses benefit directly or indirectly by having paved roads in their area. In my area, anytime commercial property is built, the developers must pay into a fund that improves the local roads. Subsequent maintenance is paid for by state fuel taxes. I can't speak for other states, but I assume they have a similar method for building and maintaining roads.

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taterguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. LOL
Show one state budget where the fuel taxes collected cover the state's cost of building and maintaining roads.

I suspect I'll have to wait a while.
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. How about I "show" you something that's a lot more relevant?
First of all, it's your assertion that roads are "subsidized" in the first place. Why you think I should have to disprove your tangential assertion that you never offered one iota of proof in the first place is beyond me. I don't fall for those tricks. Try someone more weak minded.

The reality is that roads are indeed subsidized, but not even within a cab ride of how you think they are. The Romans were building roads paid for by the "general fund" thousands of years before anyone knew what the fuck a car was. And those roads are the single biggest reason why they were transformed from a society of inbred sheepherders to a major world power that defined western civilization to this very day. So regardless of whether you ride a donkey to work the fact that you have a job in the first place is probably because we have a system of roads. Unless you live within walking distance of a sea port or a navigable river, you would probably be spending a good part of your time grinding corn with a rock sporting a bone through your nose. So there's no question that roads should be "subsidized", but the more relevant question is who is subsidizing whom? So lets suppose you have enough money to hire your own personal ball washer that follows you around all day with a bowl of warm soapy water and a washcloth. Even if you have an H1 hummer that you drive 300 miles per day just for shits and giggles, chances are you spend less on fuel taxes than you do on bills that you use to light your cigars. On the other hand, if you are one of the poorest working Americans, you might be spending more on fuel taxes than you can afford to spend on Spam for the week's dinners.

So fuel taxes shouldn't exist in the first place. Roads should be financed out of the "general fund" 100% by a taxation system that actually is progressive rather than just pretending to be progressive. They should be paid for by those who derive the most benefit from them and have the greatest ability to pay. Instead it's the other way around which is imbecilic. Arguing why and how on the details of how those taxes should be more regressive is....well what's an adjective that is dumber than imbecilic?

Cheers!
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taterguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #68
70. ". . .non-automobile-related taxes pay for about 40% of the total cost of the road network"
I knew that Google would eventually bail me out.

God I love proving that someone is WRONG ON THE INTERNET.

Better than sex.

Nice rant though.

:toast:

http://www.transalt.org/files/newsroom/magazine/032Spri...
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Obviously your masturbatory glee has affected your eyesight
Your own reference proves me exactly right and you exactly wrong.

Your claim was, and I quote, "automobile usage ends up being heavily subsidized by general revenue funds"

Your own reference shows general fund appropriation at 15%. I'm sure you've also tried to convince people that 4" is huge. And if you actually had bothered to go to the Brookings site and read the article, you would have found this...

The maintenance and operation of local streets is also supported with general funds of
local governments using revenue from real estate taxes on residential, commercial, and
industrial property. In recent years, many local governments have also used similar financial
support to provide local public transit services, which can be viewed as a source of
basic accessibility.


Which matches up almost precisely with what I had already told you, which was...

Local governments can and sometimes do finance road projects by other means, and usually this happens by property taxes, but it's assumed that local citizen property owners and businesses benefit directly or indirectly by having paved roads in their area.


Literacy is a great thing. You should try it sometime. I'll also note that you dismissed my progressive stance as a "rant" and ignored it completely. In your defense, I'm sure you were too busy masturbating.

Have a nice day.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #37
49. another thing they do is combine their systems
We spend probably trillions on mass transportation in this country, but it is all for kids - to get them to school and then back home. When I rode the train in Deutschland, from Burbach to Siegen early in the morning, that train filled up with schoolkids, Seems to me that that's a potentially huge subsidy for public transportation.
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #49
62. They do a lot of things smarter
Where I live you can't go from Fort Worth to Dallas without going through two completely different systems that are financed independently. So you have two sets of overhead for essentially one system, and that's not counting all the school districts which each have their own independent system with their own overhead.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #37
57. Europeans also live in smaller areas
with concentrated urban centers. For better or worse we're simply constructed differently.
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. Their population densities are higher, but even in less populated areas their mass transit is better
You also have areas of the US that have similar population densities as compared to Europe. Some have similarly adequate mass transit in a few areas, but this is the exception, rather than the rule.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. increased demand driving increased funding
yeah it doesn't always work that way but it should.
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malletgirl02 Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
54. You are right
I'm not sure if you mentioned this already, but also higher prices also causes transit agencies to raise fares, which wouldn't help increase mass transit. It would just hurt poor people in cities who depend more on public transportation. Sometimes I think the people who cheer high gas prices forget that public transportation also need gas in order to run.
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taterguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
32. It's misguided to think higher gas prices alter consumption
Edited on Sat Oct-17-09 04:12 PM by taterguy
The only consumption that gets altered is that people drive less because they don't have a job to go to.

Most of the trips where people have a viable alternative to a car are short trips where they could walk or bike. Those trips aren't influenced by gas prices.

If I bike to work instead of drive I save less than a buck. If money was my only motivating factor I would need a much bigger bribe.

Of course a 45 minute drive is doable on a bicycle, if you're in halfway decent physical condition. Maybe not every day but at least occasionally.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
34. There's always those that welcome bad economic news
its a tweaked way of looking at things. They root for a deeper recession because they've been predicting depression and catastrophic societal failure for awhile now. Kind of like the peak oil thing. Suburbia is doomed. No way are there any alternatives available to keep up the lifestyle we have. Its a wasteland waiting to happen. we're DOOOOOMED
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #34
58. They've invested themselves into that way of thinking
like a sports fan invests in his team. They can't be happy that there may be alternatives that will allow us to maintain our standard of living because that means they might be wrong. The have so much ego invested in being correct they don't care about the consequences it will have on all of us.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #58
65. I think that's it
I started seeing doomsday tracts back in the 60's. They were generally mimeographs then. Or chain letters.

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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
36. I would like to see higher gas prices, BUT via taxation with income tax credits
for lower income folks who don't have access to transit.

Personally I am still driving my 97 Taurus and it's a guzzler ... but I only drive about 3000 miles a year. I pay over $100 per month for transit though. I'd love to see higher gas taxes fund expanded transit systems so fewer people would have to drive.
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frebrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
40. The higher the cost of fossil fuels......
the easier it is to promote alternative energy sources.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. There's a serious discussion in here somewhere.
I see people who want change without changing. I can't put my finger on it. But I am one who has a strong desire for change. And unfortunately people don't like being responsible unless they have a fire under them. In fact, people can't even agree that we are having a problem. We are in an emergency, not just a problem period. Gas prices are insignificant in terms of the overall situation in which we find ourselves. In a thousand years nobody is going to care if gas was a dollar, or a hundred dollars per gallon. But they sure as fuck are going to care about no environmental buffer system.

I'm very upset about this. Even the brightest, most liberal of people just don't get that it's not "them", but us who make up this problem. It's not Exxon. It wasn't Bush. It's US. Fox never fooled me. I even remember how sheepish I felt when Bush Sr. started his Iraq war and I said in my office "No blood for oil". It was almost like treason back then. I will agree that a strong leader would help the brainless open their eyes. But it's that trip, vacation, child. It's about petroleum combustion. Period.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #46
59. "The brainless"
I love how so many DUers elevate themselves above the herd, imagining themselves so much brighter, more logical, more cultured, more refined, more capable of rational and considered thought than the common man. And we're "progressives." :eyes:
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #59
69. I make no assumption.
I am one of the brainless much of the time. Maybe I should have said greedy. Or better, irresponsible. Or maybe just lazy. I think lazy sums up my sentiment pretty well. I'm referring to those who don't think, but just jump in their car. That kind of brainless. Don't assume I think I'm any smarter. I'm not. But I care, and I am vigilant. Most just don't give a crap. I want to treat this planet like it's special. Like it's fragile. And in that respect, I am one of a limited few.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
47. You're correct. There are people who applaud high gasoline prices.
It's the "cut off your nose to spite your face" party.

I've driven cars that get great gasoline mileage for the past 20 plus years, and wouldn't dream of owning anything that can't average 24 mpg. But I have enough sense to know that my groceries aren't arriving by magic. They're driven here, and the cost of moving them is mainly the price of fuel. Higher fuel prices means higher consumer costs for those who can least afford it. And those same folks on the lowest rung can't afford to drive to work to make minimum wage when gasoline is $4 a gallon and they live 30 miles from their job.
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carlyhippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
48. exactly
I have been scorned for having an SUV for nearly 1 1/2 years. It's not a big SUV, but it's still a gas-guzzling SUV in some eyes. I am probably using less gas a week than any fuel-efficient commuters.

You drive more in one day than I drive in a week. Higher gas prices are going to hurt those in SUVs as well as those who commute to work in small fuel efficient cars...and unless you grow your own food, bicycle riders and walkers and horseback riders will also eventually feel the heat with the over-inflated prices on goods and food, all in the name of higher prices on gas. Be careful what you wish for people.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
52. I still hold my breath every 2 weeks
when I have to fill my tank, hoping it will be less than the last time.

Cheer? Not a chance.
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malletgirl02 Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
53. I think you are right
The people who cheer high gas prices are out of touch. I live in northern Virginia, but not close to the core due to expenses. I work in the DC metro region. I live with my parents, and am currently trying to save to get a place of my own. I don't like to drive since I'm kind of afraid too, so I carpool with my mom and dad and take public transportation the rest of the way.

Well anyway my point is the DC metro area is one of the most expensive areas in the country. If have to be well off to be able to life in a nice part of the core part of the DC metro area. If you don't you either live in a ghetto area or commute from out side the area. I live about 45 miles away from my job, but I know people who commute from West Virginia to where I work, McLean VA.

Higher gas prices hurt the least well off the most. I'm beginning to realize I have to get over my fear of driving, if I want to move to a price that I can afford.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
56. just months ago super premium was 20 cents more than reg. now it's 25. go figure
we're getting higher prices whether we wish for them or not
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
64. It's just you. nt
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
66. I can't cheer.
I'm also at a loss as to what the fuck else is gonna cure us of our horsepower-worship.
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
72. Somebody actually did that?
Must have stock in an oil company or two?
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
74. I'm less than worried about how high gas prices are going to effect my commute
The real problems are going to be the sky rocketing factor costs are going to tear through the economy. I can take a bus, ride a bike, or walk. My food can't take the bus to my stores. My electricity can't ride a bike to my house.
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
76. I want a rally in the energy market because I own oil and natural gas. I'd rather sell it for more
money.
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