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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 08:26 AM
Original message
Where the Girls are, and are not...
The Subtle Art of Misogyny

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/oct/13/bid...

Do I think it's a misogynist conspiracy and that all the producers, curators and commissioners in all the arts fields in all countries decided together to make women a minority? No. It's worse than that: it's a coincidence, demonstrating just how ubiquitous and automatic misogyny is. The only time women are over-represented is as pieces of meat selling things in adverts, unpaid carers, underpaid professionals attempting to achieve justice in tribunals and unvindicated victims of harassment, discrimination and sexual and domestic violence.

I have been a critic for 16 years, across all arts disciplines and all media. It is simply not true that there are not enough women artists, commentators, writers and critics to achieve parity in arts events, whether they are poetry festivals or radio programmes. I used to present a radio show in which, a number of times, there were six male guests and no women, "just by accident". The majority of times there was one woman. We discussed virtually no works created by women artists, writers or thinkers. Not once were there all women guests, "just by accident".

It fills me with ice cold rage. Men and women both like to worship men, for some reason; women even, perversely, love to promote men who themselves hate women (hello, Roth'n'Updike fans. How's it going?). Both sexes unquestioningly perpetuate the boys' club through the invites issued to men, the opportunities, associations, deals and chances offered. The talks, readings, colloquia, special trips, lectures and guest spots are organised by women for the benefit of men's careers. For the men, the glory, status, visibility, influence and enshrinement in history. For the women, the expected but unacknowledged work.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
1. oh my, dont get me started.
Edited on Wed Oct-14-09 08:40 AM by Mari333
okay, Ill start. I was an art student when I was young, and I know well of this behaviour. I was always drawing and painting, from the age of 6 til now. and Im almost 60. I had a lot of dreams and aspirations as a young person, but I remember the subtle misogyny back then.
"You draw like a man!" I was told by one instructor.
Art history was mostly just studying male artists. No one told me about the women in history.
Over the years I found them, after much work and research. I was amazed at the HUGE amount of women in the arts and the beautiful work they did, for centuries.
I finally started doing one woman acts to make fun of the misogyny I saw in the male art world , and their adherence to the idea that no woman could be quite as good as they were. I wrote a whole one woman act called "Beware of Old Picasso"

here is one line of it

"If I were a woman, Paris, 1899
Id never take my clothes off and Id never bare my behind
Forsooth! Id see it centuries late
a hanging in the Louvre
a million buckssss
for my buttocks

Oil lacquered by some dude!"


I laugh now when I go to art museums and see supine naked women lying lustfully on beds and divans.
oh, and I still do my artwork all the time.

edit to add: I rec'd your OP but it didnt take.

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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I remember when the Jansen Art history text had NO art by women. Then a fur-lined cup and saucer
done by a woman was put in the book.

You'd think the arts are where you'd find women. But noooo...I was thrilled that the director of The Hurt Locker was, and is, a woman.

But, it's weird we still find ourselves in settings where there are so few women, or none at all. Look at the healthcare debate. There's one woman truly involved in the nuts and bolts - Olympia Snowe. That's IT. What's right with that?
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. and we are 51 percent of the pop.
add to that any group that isnt a european white man.
I have a lot of women and men artists and writers and musicians etc as friends. I support them all. I see the younger generation of men being much more open minded and inclusive of everyone, so I am counting on change at some point. maybe not til after I have left this dimension, but I am holding out hope.
Nonetheless, I always laughed and laughed when I was in art school and some guy would say to me "Could you model for me?"
(He must have had picasso fantasies)
NO, I used to laugh. YOU can model for ME, I told him.

Im not so mean anymore, just roll my eyes .

and yes, there are some older guys here who are well known artists in the art world, who still envision women as lesser than, and view them as helpmates and models. I think I scare them.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. The Wash post has ONLY 4 female op-ed writers out of over 30. The NYDNews has NO women on the op-ed
page. None.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. and the NEWS on TV...ever see old women doing the news?
I mean, older grey haired women? older grey haired men, sure...but older grey haired women? never.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
20. see Christine Craft's story
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
67. And please
do keep scaring them.

At times when the boyz get rather nasty, I like to point and laugh at them. That really, really scares 'em.

I used to roll my eyes. Now I'm mean.

:evilgrin:
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
191. "YOU can model for ME, I told him." BWAHAHAHA, Good comeback!
Edited on Sat Oct-17-09 03:29 PM by Odin2005
:rofl:

BTW, is that you in that picture? and who is the adorable little boy? :hi:
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. I remember that exact piece in my Jansen, and noticing how few women were represented.
My sister-in-law always says "I think 'Anonymous' was a woman."
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I remember Lady Bird Johnson insisted that a Mary Cassatt painting be displayed in the WH. nt
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
141. Ah, then that might explain the timing of this stamp
which was issued on November 17, 1966:

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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #13
47. I've got a Jansen text from the early 80s ... I'll have to see what's in there by women.
He probably threw in Mary Cassatt by then.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
3. They're also represented in the healthcare debate by Olympia Snowe. That's about it. nt
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Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
150. ...and Nancy Pelosi.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #150
166. She's not writing policy. She's said she's 'for' a PO, but that's it. nt
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
4. preach it! And rec'd to over-write someone's unrec
I agree with you 100%, and I am a man. I've noticed time and time again that with women artists, musicians, etc., that people will say dismissively how "she's pretty good for a girl" or worse, ignore discussing the actual quality of her work and instead discuss if she's attractive or how she's dressed.

It must really be frustrating, and I fail to see how anyone could be blind to this (and unrec a thread like this), but that is more evidence of the pervasiveness of our society's misogyny, that it is so ingrained and accepted that it's nigh invisible. Or as you said, it just happens by accident.

I think it's sad that the vast majority of men shrink at the idea of equality, and even sadder when I hear a woman speaking out against feminism and equality.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I volunteer with a veterans group. First woman to do that. So, I understand why that is,
Edited on Wed Oct-14-09 08:48 AM by Captain Hilts
and I vastly enjoy their company. I've learned a lot about them, and they about me. They say the different take I bring to our activities has been a plus. I think so too.

But I was at a transit-oriented meeting last night and out of 25 in attendance, only three were women. Why is that? I just don't know.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Thats much of why, when women get older, they become invisible
in a misogynist culture , especially in a society where people are relegated into categories like useful products, older women are considered useless products. They are no longer available to objectify into things to be used, so they 'dont exist'. Thats the shallow end , of course, of society's perspective .
Luckily, most of the older women I know dont give a gnats fart what society thinks, and they are deliciously loud and abrasively visible in their chosen fields. I tend to hang with people who adore themselves.
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Some women, the ones that are not considered attractive by society's standards,
are invisible their whole lives. How can a woman who's not beautiful possibly have anything worthwhile to offer? :eyes:
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #16
32. Indeed. Opposite of the 'Halo' effect. Susan Boyles of the World Unite!
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #16
81. Men will often say we women have it made.
On account of we can use our looks and feminine wiles to get things out of men. Of course, by "women" they mean "the small percentage who are young, thin, and conventionally attractive enough for us to notice".
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #81
107. LOL... spot on. :) (nt)
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #81
119. I think the men who say that are actually referring to themselves -
that they know that any reasonably attractive woman can wrap them around her finger. Such men suffer an innate inferiority complex.

What's the opposite of 'penis envy'?
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #81
161. perfect deconstruction.
You nailed it.
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
77. You are spot on, Mari333
invisible woman here...
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #77
105. not to me!! I see you! you are a genius too!
I make myself visible by letting the world know how fucking brilliant I am. How can they not notice?

sometimes its hard to be a genius!!

ah, I adore myself!

God, Im so beautiful!

:)
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
192. That is really sad, I greatly respect older women, probaly because I grew up surrounded by them.
My image of the "old wise person" is that of a woman, such as one of my two aunts on my dad's side, or my dear grandmother who just passed away a couple days ago. Or my 2nd grade teacher, a wonderful lady who got me into science.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. Women are just as sexist as men. Just different. This isn't a rap against men at all. Thanks for
being here!
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
9. K&R
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
10. k&r
Mari's observations above are spot on and I will add that as an art student in the 90's, very little has changed. I even got the "You draw like a man" "compliment"! I need to read this whole article, but first I need some coffee. Thanks for posting.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
12. somewhere else they aren't

http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections/exhibitions/modern...

most glaring omission- christina ramberg. chicago imagist, well known painter. graduate of the school, long time painting teacher at the school, held in many chicago collections, i believe winner in chicago and vicinity show(s). nada. zip. nothing.
200+ artists, and like 25 women. in 2009. :puke:
makes you want to curl up in a ball and fuggitaboudit.
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badgerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:11 AM
Original message
Women are not a commodity.
When we stop allowing ourselves to be viewed and used as such we'll make some progress.

It's hard to turn down the big bucks though when you're getting them for merely being the right shape and age... :shrug:

No, that's never been a 'problem' for me (and no 'sour grapes' here either)...but I can see how it would be for a lot of women.
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
28. Sadly, I've known women who clearly have no problem with being a commodity.
They've bought into the idea that they are nothing without their looks, hook, line and sinker. They starve themselves. They won't leave the house for any reason until they spend hours primping/plucking/blow-drying/applying makeup. They teeter around in uncomfortably short skirts and guarantee themselves a lifetime of foot problems in impossibly high heels. They freak out the minute they gain one pound, or find one wrinkle, and feel like their lives are over once they get past the age of being "hot". Oh, and THE WORST IMHO, is when they play stupid and/or helpless in front of men. Nothing drives me more insane. I have a friend who does that and it drives me bananas. My mother did that, too, and now she really is helpless. And while she's not stupid, she's frustratingly ignorant about nearly every subject.

It makes me grateful that I was a nerdy, chubby arty girl who could never be part of that club when she was young (and I'll admit I wanted to be before I knew better). Life as an adult is much better when you're not obsessing about your hotness expiration date the minute you turn 30, or worrying that a man will think you're too smart.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #28
38. The 5'10" 120 lb. Ralph Lauren model was fired for being fat.
It really bothers me to see young girls who feel they have to wear shrink wrap to be considered worthy of anyone's attention. There are better ways to get attention.

http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyle/fashion/2009/10/14...
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #28
45. I think women become more beautiful after 30. Even after 40.
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #45
156. or older
Edited on Fri Oct-16-09 12:41 PM by Morning Dew
grace slick


edited to remove link

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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #156
174. Why should it matter?
I saw Grace a few years back. She's cool, but not because of how she looks.

She's had a very tough couple of years.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #28
68. You sound like my kind of gal!
:fistbump:

I've always considered myself blessed that I did not grow up in an environment where I was made to feel that as a female, my appearance was the most important contribution I could make to the world. My intellect and abilities were endlessly touted, my being extraordinarily cute was a plus not the whole enchilada. :)

Now that I'm the mother of a little girl (with another baby on the way) I have lost what little patience I ever had for women who are CONSUMED with their appearance and act as though they are nothing beyond their dress size, hair color, cellulite content ec. Life is TOO DAMNED SHORT to be consumed with this type of stupidity. The idea of my little girl(s) growing up and being made to feel that if they grow to be any bigger than a size 6, that they are not as worthy of success and/or happiness fills me with the same ice cold rage the author referenced.

I'd rather befriend a size 14 or larger woman who lives life to the fullest than a smaller one who wants to do nothing but talk endlessly about their workout and diet regimen and thinks that I'm supposed to give a crap just because she does.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. Murdoch and the other boyz
running the Media have a lot to do with the younger women placing so much importance on the physical/the outside.

Where's Roseanne, Murphy Brown, The Designing Women, Cagney and Lacey???

Nope, you gotta get implants, spend lots of $$$ on make-up and high heels, and do whatever it takes to get a boy on your arm.

The younger women are brainwashed 24/7. And so are the boyz....pron on the internet...don't get me started on that one.

Let's end this Age of Pisces and get on to the Age of Aquarius, OK? Violence, war and destruction is so passe. Creativity, sustainability and cooperation are where it's at. Spread the word!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #68
152. I have a little girl, too.
Edited on Fri Oct-16-09 11:29 AM by Kalyke
Don't you just HATE going to the toy store or the toy section of the store and seeing all kinds of cool science kits or erector sets or educational toys for the boys and nothing for the girls but pink dress-up clothes or pink vacuum cleaners or pink, pink, pink, pink. :puke:

Needless to say, my girl gets very little "girl" toys, outside of the occasional doll or stuffed animal (we are getting her a realistic - silver - kitchen set for Christmas, because she will, one day, take over Cat Cora's role as the only female Iron Chef. :) )
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #28
193. Heh, I think brains make a woman more attractive.
:D
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
37. When we stop .... WE. yes, i agree. it always has to be within. yes. nt
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
17. The Captain is awake... Thanks!
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #17
26. Bright-eyed and bushy-tailed this morning!
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
18. I'm a man so my perspective is a little different.. And I'm not really an artist either
But I like the Dire Straits song, In The Gallery, from their first album.

It makes the point that a great many artists do great work and yet are ignored.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3D7DmKiDsA


Harry made a bareback rider proud and free upon a horse
And a fine coalminer for the NCB that was
A fallen angel and Jesus on the cross
A skating ballerina you should have seen her do the skater's waltz

Some people have got to paint and draw
Harry had to work in clay and stone
Like the waves coming to the shore
It was in his blood and in his bones
Ignored by all the trendy boys in London and in Leeds
He might as well have been making toys or strings of beads
He could not be in the gallery

And then you get an artist says he doesn't want to paint at all
He takes an empty canvas and sticks it on the wall
The birds of a feather all the phonies and all of the fakes
While the dealers they get together
And they decide who gets the breaks
And who's going to be in the gallery

No lies he wouldn't compromise
No junk no bits of string
And all the lies we subsidise
That just don't mean a thing
I've got to say he passed away in obscurity
And now all the vultures are coming down from the tree
So he's going to be in the gallery
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #18
27. Didn't they heave their demo tape over a producer's fence? I think so.
Edited on Wed Oct-14-09 09:32 AM by Captain Hilts
Very true that a lot of great artists, entertainers, writers never make the major leagues.

So, Susan Boyle comes along and folks say, "SEE, if you're talented you'll be discovered!" Well, no, not really. Boyle was THIS CLOSE to getting the buzzer from one of the judges, evidently.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #27
36. So much of success in many fields boils down to being in the right place at the right time..
Not just in artistic endeavors either, my best ever job that ended up becoming a couple of decade career I got because my brother met someone who was looking for a person with my particular talents and recommended me, it's a technical field I never would have thought of otherwise.

Most people are really loath to admit just how much random chance effects their lives. I also see personality having a lot to do with success as well, if you are a good schmoozer and are adept at working your connections that will often take you further than sheer ability.

"Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans" -John Lennon



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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. Walter Mattau said being successful took a lot of hard work at 40 lucky breaks.
Katharine Hepburn also admitted to being very lucky in her timing, parents, mentors, etc.
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
19. I teach a film course at a local college. I show movie clips in class
and one time it dawned on me that all the movies I showed had male leads.

So I made up my mind to try to get a little balance except . . . try to find movies with female leads.

Even romantic comedies like "Notting Hill" with superstar women (Julie Roberts) focus on the male character.

When female actors complain that no one is writing good leads for them, they are right.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. You sit through the previews today and women are, at best, peripheral. Julie and Julia
is a huge exception.

JC: Well, that sucks.

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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #19
31. And I'll also note that when they did the TV show about the woman president...
the network chose a woman who is six feet tall.

There you go...
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #31
117. the public also wants tall men as president
(another disadvantage for Dennis Kucinich)
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #117
143. Yes, folks made fun of Dukakis and GWB wore lifts in debates with Gore and Kerry.
Gore is 6'2" and GWB 5'11", yet they appeared the same height at the debates.

Respecting people taller than we are is ingrained in us from the time we are small kids. We never get over it.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #19
56. Steel Magnolias, Beaches, Thelma and Louise.
Fried Green Tomatoes. They're out there--ask a chick. :)
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
63. One recent exception to that rule..
Bright Star...It's about the love affair between poet John Keats and Fanny Braun.

It's directed by Jane Campion and one might think it would focus on the "famous" Keats, but it doesn't...It focuses on Fanny Braun as protrayed by Abbie Cornish...and she is TERRIFIC...I loved it.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #19
91. French films -- despite the sexist culture there are great woman-centered films!
Babette's Feast -- one of my all time favorites, about a female French chef exile living with Danish "spinster" sisters who decides to cook the meal of her life.

Entre Nous -- about two French wives in the 50s who become inseparable friends; flash backs show the way the war created their marriages.

Lucie Aubrac -- riveting portrait of a French woman under ground resistance member whose husband is detained and goes through a transformation into an iron willed resistance fighter to rescue him.

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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #91
129. Thank you, I'll check those out. NT
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justiceischeap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
21. Women in Web Design are under-represented as well
I know this because I'm a female web designer and though there are tons of us out there, there are only a couple (4 or 5) that have "name" recognition. It's sad.
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Same with Print Design.
I've met a couple of the rock start print designers over the years (all men). I have to say I found them rather insufferable. I won't name names and I'm sure some of them are great, but my overall impression is not good.
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #21
46. I agree. That was my former job (well, usability specialist).
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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #21
93. Hmm, I've only hired 2 "web designers" both Women.
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justiceischeap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #93
180. I'm not saying we don't get hired or that we don't get work
I'm saying we're under-represented. For example, look at the big web conferences. If there's a panel of say, 7 speakers, maybe one of those will be women. Maybe. That's under-representation in comparison to the amount of women actually working in the field.

According to some statistics from A List Apart:


Gender
Male 83.8% | Female 16.2%

Percentages are based on 29,567 responses to this question (98.4% of all respondents).

The respondents are overwhelmingly male, similar to last year.

http://aneventapart.com/alasurvey2008/#gen


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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
23. That is brilliant. My favorite part:
Misogyny is not something forcefully, loudly imposed by a mighty superpower. It is constantly, silently, automatically enacted by all the people present, including those who feel perturbed but don't speak up.

The status quo did not arise by accident. The anti-woman society is constructed every day, collectively, before our eyes.
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RadiationTherapy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. People who are sensitive enough to pay attention are often also non-confrontational.
Edited on Wed Oct-14-09 09:25 AM by RadiationTherapy
Not me, though.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. oh yeah! +1
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #24
34. Teaching college, it was so difficult to get female students to speak up in class.
Many are still just not comfortable being in the 'center' and are subconsciously content with being in the 'periphery'.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #23
33. My favorite line also. Thanks for pointing it out for the folks here. nt
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
25. Also, a woman's place is in the kitchen unless it's to be a chef
Edited on Wed Oct-14-09 09:28 AM by lunatica
in some high end restaurant.

I'm an artist too, and it's definitely a man's world. I won't go into it because I don't have time. I have to go to work.

There's also different treatment for waiters and waitresses, even if both work in the same restaurant. Some customers don't hesitate to demean waitresses, while thinking they're hot stuff if they have a waiter.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:41 AM
Original message
VAST majority of grievance suits filed by students at the U I taught were male students against
female professors. Everybody is more at ease criticizing women.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
40. Is there not an alternate explanation for that phenomenon? n/t
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. It's what I was told by the university. Female professors are targeted more.
It could be because liberal arts - where more women teach - are more qualitative courses whereas mathematics, sciences are more quantitative. Or, perhaps, the liberal arts and its professors are not taken as seriously.

I do have one anecdote that is interesting. I used to commute to work on my bike in DC. Rode up the Crescent trail to Bethesda at the end of the day. I often used to ride with a friend of mine - a man. On hot days on the way up we'd take our biking helmets off because we would be going so slowly. I noticed that whenever I would do this while riding alone male riders would yell at me for doing so. My male friend said that never happened to him when he took his helmet off while riding.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. There's certainly a sexist streak in society.
And your bike helmet anecdote illustrates it. Women's safety is considered society's responsibility while men's is entirely their own.

Which brings me back to the previous post. If it were found that most grievances at your university were female students complaining about the male professors, I doubt that you'd have reached the conclusion that it must be because women enjoy complaining about men.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #42
58. False equivalency on an uneven playing field. nt
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. Please elaborate. n/t
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #42
80. lumberjack_jeff, you love to point out all the problems men have in society.
In many cases, you're absolutely right. But the one thing you've never done is proven how any of them are the fault of women.

Most of the problems women face in the world are caused by men.

Most of the problems men face in the world are also caused by men.

Your example of the disparity in attitudes toward safety is a perfect illustration. Having spent years in the military and several more in a male-dominated tech field I can tell you that getting guys to wear safety gear and follow procedures was like pulling eyeteeth at times. Same with getting them to report if they were hurt. The macho culture that rewards toughness and stoicism is not the fault of women, is it?
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #80
104. Women promulgate destructive forms of the patriarchy too.
Edited on Thu Oct-15-09 09:30 AM by lumberjack_jeff
The default assumption that women = victim being the primary one. Look upthread to the example I pointed out, a female college teacher expressed the view that female professors are being unfairly treated by their male students, and the evidence for this is the rate at which the male students file grievances against them. When asked what a possible alternative explanation for this phenomenon could be, the poster was at a loss.

When it comes to casting off destructive cultural norms "fault" is too squishy a concept, and is not what I'm looking for or pointing out. Assigning blame to a gender, for a problem which permeates our culture, is pointless except in a rally-the-troops sense.

I have observed the same things as you regarding safety. I have also found that advice to wear the glasses or the respirator are usually better recieved from another man. That said, safety would be taken more seriously as a management principle if more women were in those jobs.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #104
108. Indeed they do.
And I agree with you... we shouldn't be trying to point fingers and blame, but rather just evolve the fuck out of this nonsense.

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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #108
188. I think the point of the article is that it is pre-reflective in all of us. nt
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #104
121. As individuals, yes women absolutely do promulgate destructive forms of patriarchy
But women did not create and put in place the social structures and cultural and religious constructs of patriarchy. Nor are all women victims and all men oppressors. Women in a privileged group, such as whites, will often be complicit with the men in that group in discriminating against men in an out group. Ditto with men in an outgroup working with men in the privileged group to keep women down. Male dominance is the original form of oppression and IMHO in undergirds every other form of discrimination - from racism to homophobia to classism.

When it comes to casting off destructive cultural norms "fault" is too squishy a concept, and is not what I'm looking for or pointing out. Assigning blame to a gender, for a problem which permeates our culture, is pointless except in a rally-the-troops sense.

True but people (in this case men) need to stop being knee-jerk defensive and denying and downplaying their privilege while demanding they be deferred to ("men have problems too!" "I'm not like that and I'm a man!") before a discussion can begin.

I have observed the same things as you regarding safety. I have also found that advice to wear the glasses or the respirator are usually better recieved from another man. That said, safety would be taken more seriously as a management principle if more women were in those jobs.

Absolutely. When women go into male-dominated companies in a significant number, not only do safety records improve due to an increased emphasis on safety as you point out, but very often the jobs become easier in general for the men because of modifications to equipment and procedures to accomodate women. For example, at the company where I worked for several years doing maintenance on large pieces of manufacturing equipment, prior to affirmative action bringing in a large number of female techs there was no limit on what the men were expected to lift. When we women got there, they instituted a policy that no one was to lift more than 45 lbs without a partner or a lifting device, no exceptions. The guys grumbled about it but back injuries decreased by like 70% in the first year.




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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #121
195. The safey thing is interesting.
Edited on Sat Oct-17-09 04:54 PM by Odin2005
I noticed myself that if I had a concern over safety I got my masculinity questioned. It's crazy.
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Threedifferentones Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #80
133. "Fault?"
I question the way you use that word, Hello Kitty.

It's pretty much a given that if you are rich you hold greater sway over our society than if you are poor. Hence, it is easy for me to argue that a disgustingly rich woman (let's say Patricia Frist as an example, I'm from TN) is more responsible for our exploitative, patriarchal society than 99.9999% of men.

Of course, our culture inherited hierarchies of gender and wealth from long ago, and we work on them collectively. So, really no one person can be said to be at "fault" for our shared culture. Or, I guess you could say everyone influences it to a really, really tiny extent. Funnily, those boil down to the same thing.

I can't help but ask you, Hello Kitty: when the Frists talk to each other over dinner about why it is okay to buy mansions rather than save lives with the money they get from health "insurance," are the men really more evil than the women? If Patricia Frist does not really involve herself in HCA's business affairs, leaving that to her husband, how much less responsible does that make her for the difference in our lifestyles?

The macho culture that rewards toughness and stoicism to the point of stupid is just that, but it is not IMO at the root of our culture's greatest evils. It is merely an unwitting tool for them some times.

Hierarchy and exploitation are hardly solely perpetrated by men, though men do seem to share a fondness for enforcing those things very physically.

As I read these threads, I find myself wondering something I never thought I'd wonder before the internet: in explaining patriarchy/dominance/hierarchy, can we overemphasize gender?

Have you never marveled at the apparent irony in the ridiculously sexist culture of Elizabethan and Victorian England? It just seems so obvious to me to argue that social classes (ie wealth disparities) are more to blame than gender roles for our societal ills...
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #133
139. When looking at men and women as individuals
Yes, women can be agents of oppression (based on the status they have as members of other groups) while men can be victims of it (for the same reasons). But when you look at classes of people, it's hard to argue that men as a class are not privileged over women as a class. It's even harder to argue that women as a class have been oppressing men or denying them rights in any way.
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Threedifferentones Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #139
170. You are correct of course
Nonetheless, I do not think any men walking today are more at "fault" than women for our culture, we all largely do what has been presented to us. If that means living in an exploitative relationship or culture, so be it. If we benefit from exploitation, so much the better. This rule of human relationships and civilizations seems to cross gender divides very easily, IMO.
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #42
149. I don't think Cpt. Hilt's experience had anything to do with male concern for safety.
When I was in my 20's, I hardly ever rode, but of three times I got my bike out, I had three experiences:

1) A middle aged man forced me off the side of the road into one of the many large plaza parking lots. Then, he pulled into the lot and started chasing me in his car. Weaving around behind and around and in front of me as I tried to get away. Finally, he left. I can tell you, I was fucking scared for my life. I don't know if anyone saw, I was too focused on what the hell was going on, but no one stopped or assisted.

2) A car full of male teens threw their McDonald's (or whatever it was) trash at me as they passed. A large soda cup partly filled with ice hit me in the head. (no helmets back then)

3) I stopped somewhere, for something. Came back to my bike and a guy my age-ish came up to me and started "chatting". Then he started asking me where I lived, if I was nearby, getting insistent... I got scared. I played nice and friendly, but said I lived on the other side of town then somehow I excused myself, went into a restaurant nearby. I made sure he couldn't see me watching and stayed there until he left and drove away, but it took a long time.

I stopped riding my bike after the third incident.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #149
160. Me neither. (nt)
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #149
196. Yikes, that's scary!
:scared:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. Just the evidence on DU that women are targeted more (and more crudely) is enough for me.
It's so easy to criticize women. If you criticize men, you get more flack. And, like me, you become a little more unpopular. It's the way it goes.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. The Washington Post said that female columnists get more - and angrier - criticism. nt
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. I'll bet. Males feel that have a right to criticize women, while they may be more careful with men
A lot of women feel the same way too. It's part of being an oppressed group--you tend to devalue your own.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Yes! Women are also more comfortable criticizing women than men. nt
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #52
151. yes, and it's safer to unload on women. We don't retaliate.
That's why customer service people and certain other jobs that specifically interface with the public are usually women. We make nice, we "take it" when we get treated badly.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #49
197. And female columnists get flamed with misogynistic slurs.
Especially "b*tch", "whore" and "c*nt*.
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JoeyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #41
62. Stories like that are way more common than they should be.
"I noticed that whenever I would do this while riding alone male riders would yell at me for doing so."

This is because in their mind you don't have control over your own body. If you are in the presence of a man he owns you. If you're alone whatever man happens to be looking at you does.

My female friends tell me stories like this all the time. At first I found them depressing, now they piss me off. In a just world you could pepper spray these bastards without consequences.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #62
98. Yes. Thank you. My biking buddy was fascinated by it. nt
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #62
153. have a look at my little anecdote!
Edited on Fri Oct-16-09 11:35 AM by BlancheSplanchnik
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

pisses me off, yes. I'm 51 now and I've had the usual woman's heaping helping of anecdotes, in all manner of life experiences, work and social.

meant to say, good to see when a man gets what we're talking about here.

:hi: JoeyT

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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
78. "Everybody is more at ease criticizing women.'
INCLUDING other women!

It's true. I've always noticed that even women criticize other women much more easily and readily than they criticize men. My boss is the Queen of that. SEXIST duJour.
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
88. Criticizing women--
YES!! This is another fact I stew about often. Another of those facts I know is true, and know that so few are aware of. Ever notice that women are the default cultural symbols of sarcastic contempt? The automatic scorn so many luxuriate in..Brittany, Lindsay Lohan, automatic material for (all male) late night talk show hosts? Women are EASY to ridicule. A great all-purpose vessel for acting out ego anxieties.

Agh, so much to say about so many of the points raised here, but gotta run.

Damn, and I'm in ice-cold rage mode.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #88
99. A recent survey in Britain showed that the top 10 most hated celebs list was
dominated by women and the 10 most loved celebs dominated by men.

Lindsey Lohan, Britney Spears and Amy Whinehouse are acting just as male performers have behaved for years.

Susan Boyle says 'fuck off' to some nasty tabloid reporters and the world falls apart. Fortunately, the Guardian - the source of this article - defended her right to say so generically as well as in the specific incident.
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #99
155. indeed.
Edited on Fri Oct-16-09 01:03 PM by BlancheSplanchnik
For years I didn't watch teevee, and for a while didn't have one. Now, my hunny does watch, it's his way of chilling out after days of heavy physical work. So, I'm watching too.... what a cultural education teevee is.

I want to see women, who are aware start writing the stories and characters, so we can see our actual selves represented.

geez, one sitcom I've seen a few times was a real case study in misogyny and character stereotypes (the subtly toxic kind of misogyny that reflects very limited concepts of feminine being. Not the out and out hate I witnessed on some very late talk-show. Can't remember the name, but it deserves to be called out too).

Anyway......

Careful, you may have to barf at this:

The star and driver of the show is a loveably dumb jock who is put upon by his ex-wife. Much of the humor depends on the back and forth between him and his ex-wife.

The ex-wife exemplifies the "cold castrating bitch" role. Of the total of maybe 4 times I've seen the show, she had to eat crow more than once, being made a fool of in spite of her endless arrogant sniping at the male lead. The plot-lines of those episodes were: She Fails--and must fall back on the male lead who Wins by helping/saving/bailing her out in spite of her treatment of him.

The 13-ish year old son is the loveable nerd, a little on the intellectual side, not the dumb-jock type that his father is (but not effiminate!!!), carries a LOT of the comedy, and gets a LOT of screen time and script zingers.

The younger daughter is... well the first time I saw her, she was adorable, extremely pretty, doll-like, kid-cool fashionable, blond, a little precocious know it all, had a couple of funny lines in short scenes.

Months later, the second time I saw her, she had even less dialogue, mostly stood on the sidelines. She was dressed like a baby-beauty-pageant contestant in ringlets and over-the-top flounces throughout the show. The episode's story was: Dad must find daughter a birthday present that will make her happier than the gifts her mother's rich, connected boyfriend showers on her and her brother. Hilarity ensues.

Her lines were, "ohh thank you, thank you", hugging an adult male, and "ohhh thank you, thank you daddy, I love you", as she jumped up and down and enthusiastically pressed herself against them in full body hugs. Then, was hurried off-stage.

Mostly though, she stood by and was quickly hurried off camera either before or after the brother interacted with the father in comedy zinger scenes.

Oh, right, I almost forgot... that episode... a second character, a black co-worker guy...smooth, oily, pussy-hound, yet likable in a weird way (huh?) featured SEVERAL JOKES where this guy made sexual remarks about the girl to the father. Sexualized talk about an 11 year old who dresses like a lacy Shirley Temple doll is supposed to be humor???????!!!!!!!

The father, star of the series, shoots him down --- but somehow, his lines are written so that he still maintains his likability as the "icky/funny but harmless flirt"...this is what the writers think is humor???????????

MORE of the shit that makes my blood boil.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #155
173. The Wash Post this morning has a cartoon showing how THE most hated Republicans and Dems are women.
I don't know how you get to it online. But it shows how THE most hated for both parties - Hillary and Pelosi - for Dems.
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #173
176. well, that's interesting.... is the point of the cartoon to
question social tendencies to displace anger onto women? Or is it just contributing further to the default usage of women by presenting it as a fact, beyond question? Or was the hatred of women just an unexamined corollary to some other point, which would continue the default misogyny mode?


really, I'm so tired of this....

I'm thinking that the only way substantive change will happen is as the wave of women getting advanced education continues. After enough generations of that, we may see the factors that shape social norms change, assuming an increase in women across all positions of influence, AND assuming an increase in women's awareness too. (I'm thinking of a particular professor who seemed to be totally unaware. For example, she showed an extremely sexist popular movie in class and neglected to call for class discussion to process the discomfort the female members of class were feeling. In my position, I am not at liberty to participate, but I could see clearly the discomfort that many of the students were experiencing, yet had no way to identify. Frustrating, sometimes.)

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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #176
178. Yes, that is the point. There are two women talking about how they're all on ONE side. nt
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #178
184. Far out! Sounds like an Ann Telnaes (sp?) cartoon.....
she's about the only cartoonist I can think of who actually regards women's issues as being important enough to think about. Jen Sorenson too, actually, now I think of it......
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #25
35. well I would LOVE to see your beautiful creations! nt
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #35
50. Here are a couple of my drawings
Edited on Wed Oct-14-09 12:42 PM by lunatica
I'd love to see some of your artwork too!





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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. +1
:thumbsup:
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #50
71. thank you!!!!
Edited on Wed Oct-14-09 09:59 PM by Mari333
+100000000000000000000000000!!!

here u go

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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #71
84. Mari333
Oh, I really like that. Do you have a website with more?
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #84
89. no. lol. maybe someday. nt
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #71
159. good work!
:)
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #50
158. I LIKE!!
:)
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
132. I've noticed this before about cooking
For the last god knows how many thousands of years, it's women who have done 99% of the cooking. But a man who takes it up is clearly talented in a way that those billions of women were not, so the man can be a chef, whereas a woman is just a cook.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
43. rap
http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/10/14/women.in.hi...

From the beginning hip-hop has been viewed as a man's world, and discussions of sexism and inequality within the genre have come up often. In fact, many times such disrespect was the subject of the female rappers' tracks.

Today, with the music industry struggling, there is a particular dearth of female rap artists taking center stage.

....

"Not unless she is talking about being that kingpin's main girl and she's wearing next to nothing and she's talking about nothing that is really going to nurture the people the way we are known innately as black women being able to do, there's really no space for that type."

....

"It can be hard for women to find an image that is street-marketable as well as radio-marketable," Williams said. "For the most part, men can get away with a whole lot more because of the double standard that exists among the sexes, and so it's difficult for women to find a niche."

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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #43
69. Seabeyond, thanks for bringing up the sistas!
Too often, discussions about misogyny only focus on its effects on one group of women. This is such a significant topic and it impacts so many women in so many different ways.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #69
82. The Money Quote:
It is time for women to realise how little they are respected, how little their presence is liked, how this antipathy is expressed and how very easy it is to spot: they do not want us around, so they do not invite us, though we may pay to worship. Misogyny is not something forcefully, loudly imposed by a mighty superpower. It is constantly, silently, automatically enacted by all the people present, including those who feel perturbed but don't speak up.

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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #82
130. Yep, that is definitely the money quote. I actually clapped and yelled when I read that in the OP.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #69
116. from what i understand, the women rappers were the counter to anti female of male rappers
they were/are really needed. i hate to see this happen. glad it is recognized and being talked about
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #69
124. Us white girls that don't listen to rap are reluctant to bring up this issue. nt
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #43
198. The disgusting, misogynistic shit in rap music is horrible.
:puke:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
44. Bingo.
:kick:
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
51. It's not just women themselves -- it's also women's concerns
I'm trying to remember something I read years ago, and I may not have it exactly right -- but the general idea was that women artists are depreciated not just because they're women but because their subjects tend to be intimate, domestic, and sensitive.

You walk through any of the major art museums, and the galleries are full of battle scenes, massacres, portraits of kings (and their mistresses), and the more dramatic aspects of nature.

It's all about power and violence and big-dickery. These are what have been considered "serious" and "important" subjects for the last 500 years.

And much the same standard applies across the board.

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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. big-dickery
:spray:

evolution is soooo slooooow.
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #51
157. yep. It's interesting to study big-dickery and how it manifests in more mundane aspects.
Entertainment media, work, advertising.....
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mimitabby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
53. woman artist here
I know of many women who won't put their first name on their paintings - so that they can be hopefully mistaken for men.
all of you here who have bought my Obama print know I am not shy about showing my name.

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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. In academia - like the phonebook - women use initials to downplay their sex. nt
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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #55
85. phonebook
Well, in the phonebook, it's to reduce calls from weirdos.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #53
134. George Eliot back in the day...
JK Rowling more recently. :(
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
60. Same for people of color
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #60
97. Yes, that is often the case. nt
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busybl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
64. I remember Yoko Ono's statement, now politically incorrect
Women are the n*****s of the world.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #64
135. It's powerful and true in part because it's offensive
:(
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riverdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #64
185. Here's the Lennon song:
Woman Is the Nigger of the World

Woman is the nigger of the world
Yes she is...think about it
Woman is the nigger of the world
Think about it...do something about it

We make her paint her face and dance
If she wont be a slave, we say that she don't love us
If she's real, we say shes trying to be a man
While putting her down, we pretend that she's above us

Woman is the nigger of the world...yes she is
If you don't believe me, take a look at the one you're with
Woman is the slave of the slaves
Ah, yeah...better scream about it

We make her bear and raise our children
And then we leave her flat for being a fat old mother hen
We tell her home is the only place she should be
Then we complain that she's too unworldly to be our friend

Woman is the nigger of the world...yes she is
If you don't believe me, take a look at the one you're with
Woman is the slave to the slaves
Yeah...alright...hit it!

We insult her every day on TV
And wonder why she has no guts or confidence
When she's young we kill her will to be free
While telling her not to be so smart we put her down for being so dumb

Woman is the nigger of the world
Yes she is...if you don't believe me, take a look at the one you're with
Woman is the slave to the slaves
Yes she is...if you believe me, you better scream about it

We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance



Still seems relevant to me...
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
65. We used Gardner's Art Through the Ages.

I don't remember any women artists except for Rosa Bonheur (The Horse Fair) and Mary Cassatt.

They didn't mention Suzanne Valadon, model for Renoir, Berthe Morisot, Toulouse-Lautrec and Degas.
She was the mother of Maurice Utrillo (Paternity in question).

Anecdote about Maurice Utrillo:
"After Maurice was born to Suzanne Valadon, she went to Renoir, for whom she had modeled nine months previously. Renoir looked at the baby and said, 'He can't be mine, the color is terrible!' Next she went to Degas, for whom she had also modeled. He said, 'He can't be mine, the form is terrible!' At a cafe, Valadon saw an artist she knew named Miguel Utrillo, to whom she spilled her woes. The man told her to call the baby Utrillo: 'I would be glad to put my name to the work of either Renoir or Degas!'"




I am an artist and musician too.

Examples of my work:

http://lavidacountry.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/crescent-... /

http://lavidacountry.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/more-beau... /

http://lavidacountry.wordpress.com/2009/03/15/my-artwor... /

http://lavidacountry.wordpress.com/2009/03/15/kali-durg... /

http://lavidacountry.wordpress.com/2009/03/15/one-of-my... /

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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #65
72. Your work is very nice. I like it (I'm an artist too)
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Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
66. I am no artist or poet (quite the polar opposite as a mathematician)
...but I did always think that women were generally better with words than men, so it surprises me that what you say is true. I am sure you are right if you say it is so - I just have no idea since the literary and art world is another galaxy to me.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #66
73. I'm a writer and a teacher of science students, both young women and young men..
There has been a back-slide--no doubt. The young women I teach aren't affected by it so much, but they know other young women who are.
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BREMPRO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
75. Drew Faust- First woman President of Harvard.
took almost 400 years, but a real a sea change at a conservative institution that until 40 years ago didn't allow women full access to the campus resources. Just watched her on Charlie Rose- she's got a brilliant intellect, a knowlegeable historian, and seems to be an insighful educator and manager. Much better than the last one...
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. Look up the women of ENIAC - many of the first programmers were women
....but the CREDIT all went to MEN (who designed/built the hardware). It wasn't until 60+ years later that ANYONE recognized the women who programmed the hardware (hardware which would be a useless boat-anchor without the software/programming that those woman mathmeticians wrote and maintained) to RUN it.

Pfft.

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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #79
87. programmers
There were actually quite a number of women programmers in the 60s and so on, until it became a well-known field. Then, gasp, it was a technical field, and the number of women plummeted.
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #87
112. 'zactly. Sheesh. n/t
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #79
144. Read up on Grace Hopper of the USN.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #144
148. Hopper was on the Letterman show. She was great. nt
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #79
194. Same thing happened with movie editing and psychology. nt nt
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #79
199. Don't forget Rosalind Franklin, the REAL disoverer of the structure of DNA.
That racist, sexist prick Watson bashed her constantly, demeaning her contributions.
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-14-09 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
76. As a writer and poet *and* someone in a male-dominated technical field ... DO NOT get me started....
Edited on Wed Oct-14-09 11:43 PM by Triana
that

is

all

:mad:

EDIT: My FEMALE boss is more SEXIST than many men I've worked for, too.
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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #76
95. Software field is pretty absent of women
I have never had a female programmer apply for a job with me, not a single one in a decade.
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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #95
115. absent women
Edited on Thu Oct-15-09 11:08 AM by katkat
Just curious, what company do you work for that gets no/few female applicants?

I applied for a humongous number of jobs after HP bought Compaq which had bought DEC, my employer, and HP laid off the oldest two people in my group of eighty people (among laying off people in many other groups.) Despite extensive experience and a Masters from MIT, I couldn't get the time of day from employers once I came in for an interview. Whether that was due to my gender or my being in my 50s, it's hard to say. I actually got told I was "too old" by a couple of managers.

Eventually I said the hell with this, and retired.
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Brooklyns_Finest Donating Member (747 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #115
138. Sorry To hear this
As a young guy who works with a bunch of 50+ people, age discrimination really bothers me.
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zoff Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 05:27 AM
Response to Original message
83. Long Live The Kop! ...
... you know that's a rec!
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
86. This seems just another way of dividing us.
Edited on Thu Oct-15-09 07:01 AM by zeemike
Make it a man vs. woman and get every one to chime in on examples of how men hurt or hamper woman in there life.
And sense we have a liberal site not many men will chime in and say how woman has heart and hampered them because it is well known that woman are the sex that is in the past been excluded from manly activitys....and of course manly and womanly activities were clearly defined.

But we woke up from this delusion beginning in the 60s and now in the mind of the public at large women are accepted as being anything they want to be....I have seen this change in my life time and I can say that things have really changed greatly, and it is a good thing....but don't make gender the enemy and beat this horse to death....nothing positive can come from dwelling on the negative....that is except if you consider ill feelings between genders as a good thing.
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pmorlan1 Donating Member (763 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #86
90. Disagree
In response to zeemike.

That's what we were always told - don't talk about it - don't make waves. Sorry, but while things have most certainly gotten better for women since the 50s there is still a long way to go. I disagree with you that nothing positive can come from talking about what women and men experience. I don't consider it dwelling on the negative but speaking the truth. If anything there is not enough talk on this subject.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #90
94. I am not talking about confronting issues or the truth.
Edited on Thu Oct-15-09 08:34 AM by zeemike
I am talking about making it a gender issue.
Men are responsible for it in the past so they are the enemy, and woman are the victim.
When in fact that is not the case at all....men can and are often are supportive of women and men are sometimes the victim.
If it is about sexism or racism then rail against those that are like that but not against a gender.
Yes there is still a glass ceiling but identify who and what is keeping it there, not attributing it to the male condition.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #94
101. The point has been made here repeatedly that women are participants in this situation. nt
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #101
128. As victim?
And men are the problem?
I have no idea why everything is not 50/50 and all genders are represented equally in every field of endeavor, but It may not be just a mater of men holding woman back for some sexist goal.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #128
154. Reading is comprehending. The article and the comments here not that women are complicit
in this just as men are.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #154
168. OK I gotcha.
I have been known to miss a point.
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #128
162. I don't believe that oppression of women is always due to PURPOSEFUL misogyny.
Those in power, whether it is the power to hire and issue paychecks, or to write and choose stories for film and teevee, or to produce advertising, often cannot, simply do not, conceive of women outside of their very narrow box.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #162
167. It's pre-reflective. We don't even know we're doing it. nt
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #162
169. So what your are trying to change is a mind.
And the best way to do that is to focus on the issues and stop with the castagations.....are men/woman the enemy or not...if not then we must treat them with respect, but never once giving in or submitting to it...Just remember that non cooperating with evil done with love, is the basses for changing things.
As woman assert themselves more then they will be free of it....men have already accepted the concept long ago when it became necessary for their wives to work to support the family. so when a woman comes into his workspace and expects to be treated equal and will point it out when not treated equal, (especially if done in a loving and kind way) The mind will change.
And that last part is important...done in a kind and loving way....it is something that we know how to do to those close to us but we find it hard when we make a class of people the enemy. If they are the enemy you want to fight with them not change their mind.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #86
92. Let me guess. You're a man.
Edited on Thu Oct-15-09 08:30 AM by lunatica
If women hadn't 'beat this horse to death' as feminists, we would have never advanced at all. And that goes for all civil rights for all groups and races.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #92
96. Yes I am, and therefore the enemy.
That is the point I am trying to make here....divide us up into genders and start a war.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #96
103. I don't think men are the enemy
Ignorance is. There are plenty of women who allow themselves to be pushed aside, even in the subtle ways we're talking about here. What do you think is the reason that men and women aren't divided equally among every aspect of the arts and careers? There's an assumption that because women have come quite far that they should just shut up and not question why there are fewer women than men in virtually all areas.

And women artists definitely feel it.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #103
110. Ignorant men are the enemy. n/t
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #110
126. No ignorant people are the problem.
There is plenty of ignorance to go around.
And to me it is ignorant to make it a gender problem and not a social one.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #103
125. Well I don't know the reason for that.
And I am not prepared to say that it is the fault of a gender trait that is borne in every man.
But this much I do know that we seem to be dividing ourselves up into groups and this is just another brick in the wall.
If ignorance is the problem then let's educate not condemn a gender.
If it is sexism then let us point it out to the ones responsible not paint it as a problem in any one gender.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #125
146. Just let's keep the women barefoot and pregnant while doing so!
:rofl:
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #146
147. Oh for gods sake......n/t
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #96
182. No, tell the truth about the genders and find some men feeling sorry for THEMSELVES.
Yes, it's never about women, is it?
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #86
100. That division is already there. Women are just as bad as men are. Take the health care debate
There is only one woman involved - Olympia Snowe. The congressional members, the press, analysts are nearly all men, even though this issue affects women - perhaps more - than it does men. Michelle Obama made one speech saying women should get involved in the debate, then backed out again.

Women just don't get into the conversation as they should.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #100
106. Both my senators and my governor are women.
Every letter I write to an elected official in support of health care reform must be addressed to Ms. _________
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #106
114. If I have to point out that you're the only state that can say that....nt
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #100
109. Well... there's also Nancy Pelosi.
But yeah, it'd be nice to hear from more.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #109
113. She's basically reactive though, isn't she? nt
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #113
122. Is that an exception somehow?
It seems to be more the rule... with everyone in Congress.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #122
123. Yes, as speaker, I think that's been the role for her at this point. Not a slam on Pelosi. nt
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #100
140. I dunno. I have a feeling that if more women leaders than men were talking about it.
It would be relegated to a fluffy girly "human interest" thing and only reported on in the fashion or "family" pages. 'Cuz you know, those are the wimmenz spheres.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #140
145. I'd LOVE to give you an argument to the contrary...but I can't. nt
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #86
111. I can see how you'd get that impression. But that is not the case.
Edited on Thu Oct-15-09 10:16 AM by redqueen
What you say is true, there are sexist women and they do their part in propagating the status quo... however, I'd just like to draw your attention to this one part of the linked editorial.

Misogyny is not something forcefully, loudly imposed by a mighty superpower. It is constantly, silently, automatically enacted by all the people present, including those who feel perturbed but don't speak up.


I'd change "misogyny" to "sexism"... because the same thing happens to men, when as boys they are forced to bottle up their emotions, when they're pressured to see women as conquests and not people, when they're taught that physical strength is more important than intellect or character, etc.

When those stupid stereotypes of men are flaunted here, most often no one counters it... it's just ignored, and often agreed with.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #86
136. Let's play a game
I tell you a story about something sexist that happened to me, then you tell me about something sexist that happened to you.

I overheard my (male) boss saying to one of the guys on the crew that he hired cute women in order to make the work environment more appealing for the men there. Which told me that I wasn't hired because he thought I was any good, he just hired me so that the guys would have some eye candy.

OK, now it's your turn.
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #136
163. I shared several personal experiences here, because the personal is political
Edited on Fri Oct-16-09 01:29 PM by BlancheSplanchnik
I'm embarrassed to say I don't remember who said that famous line, the personal is political...

anyway, I agree with you that real experiences prove our point.

The next step we must also include in our focus is what to DO, what positive action proceeds from the awareness we gain from these anecdotes? I always feel angry and hopeless when I only think of the negative experiences.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #163
165. I think women's professional organizations are important
if only for providing a supportive environment. :)
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #136
175. I overheard an Army officer and two men talking about Hillary Clinton on Cap. Hill restaurant
just yesterday. They were talking about what a GREAT job she is doing. How foreign leaders really think it's a big deal to deal with her, specifically.

Then they went on to describe her as having a "horse face" and a "fat ass," and went on, again, to talk about what a great job she's doing.

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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #175
187. Exactly
:(
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backtoblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
102. I didn't get here in time to rec this, but thank you.
Thank you for keeping women's rights and equality at the forefront! We do "get used to" misogyny, both men and women alike.
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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #102
131. Agree. Just saw this.
Commenting would be moot now, but I'll pass the article on.
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Eliminate_Capital Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
118. Did I miss something?
But since when is misogyny considered an art? Hatred isn't artistic.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
120. To be clear, Arts organizations are the moral equivalent of the KKK
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PM Martin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #120
200. What do you mean by that?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
127. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
137. Just throwing this out...
I would say that religion has been part of our existence longer than politics, how many religions actually promote woman as equals??

Perhaps this is so ingrained within us that it will take a lot of hard work to truly form an equality. All one has to do is change society and then we will have progress.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #137
142. Yes, religion rarely serves women all that well when it comes to being decision-makers or leaders.nt
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #137
171. You're right of course.
Many if not most people are raised to believe in a religion which most likely characterizes women as second-class.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
164. ttt
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
172. kick
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Mrs. Overall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
177. Absolutely true. I am a writer and an editor at an all women run press--
We attempt to publish primarily women poets/writers. I cannot believe the amount of sexism I have run across as both a writer and an editor.

And, good luck getting published (especially in the poetry field) if you are deemed unattractive and/or if you are over age 50.

The majority of contemporary American poets are women, but male poets are published and receive prizes/grants much more frequently. Also, the majority of poetry readers (people who actually purchase poetry collections) in the US are women.

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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #177
179. How would they know a poet is over 50?
Curious.
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Mrs. Overall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #179
183. Usually a writer submits a full bio--and, often, women poets who are older
Edited on Sat Oct-17-09 10:35 AM by Mrs. Overall
are writing about the process of aging (male editors aren't interested in that). The best chance an older female poet has (especially in getting her first collection published) is to enter a contest that is judged blindly (no name on manuscript).

The poetry community is fairly small, so most editors/publishers are familiar with the person who is submitting his/her manuscript.
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SallyMander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
181. Here is some data from my field, biology

This study (Budden et al, 2008) compared two animal behavior journals, one of which had initiated double-blind review. What this means is that the reviewers for papers submitted to the journal were NOT given the names of the authors. (The typical thing in academia is for the reviewers to get the authors' names, but the reviewers themselves remain anonymous.) Anyway, the upshot is that when the authors remained anonymous, there was a significant (8%) increase in the number of accepted papers with female first authors. In the journal without double-blind review, there was no such increase.

I hope that double-blind review will catch on, as it seems more fair all around (e.g., "big names" in the field won't get softball reviews from people who just assume their work is good). I thought this study was really interesting because it actually quantifies the misogyny I'll be facing in my career... sigh.

Study: http://onepoint.ca/Budden%20et%20al%202008.pdf
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riverdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
186. Here's a female artist most people have never heard of:
Tamara de Lempicka.









She was pretty famous for the time, the Art Deco period, and likely much of that fame was due to her lofty position in society and her sexual appetites which won the approval of the male artists and socialites as well as who she chose to paint- the upper classes. If she was of average means, not so traditionally attractive and led a more average lifestyle who painted people around her, no one would probably ever have heard of her.

Still, her work is amazing.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
189. Wow, that is disgusting
Edited on Sat Oct-17-09 03:22 PM by Odin2005
WTF? Seriously, WTF? :grr:

The stereotypical image in my head of an artist is female, probably because of an artistically inclined friend from high school.
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-17-09 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
190. K&R
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