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Kind of a tasteless question to ask right now: How Young Is Too Young?

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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 02:35 PM
Original message
Kind of a tasteless question to ask right now: How Young Is Too Young?
Edited on Thu Oct-01-09 02:37 PM by BurtWorm
I'm not particularly squeamish or prudish when it comes to sex or philosophical discussions. I think healthy societies should be strong enough to endure any kind of free thought or speech. So I don't want to mislead anyone into thinking I'm going to advocate censorship with this post. Let me make that clear immediately. And I apologize to my fellow DUers for starting what will seem to be another Polanski thread. I'm not interested in debating his guilt or innocence, or the justice of his arrest. I do want to raise questions about the responsibilities of free media over a case like this, and about the health of a society whose media cover a case like this the way our media do.

Today there’s a post on The Daily Beast (a blog I love to hate—all Tina Brown’s doing) by a male Barnard professor who uses the Polanski case to challenge age of consent laws. Personally, I think it’s a point worth discussing in a free press (though, being the father of a 13-year-old myself, I most probably disagree with it), but using this "hot news story" as an opportunity to discuss age of consent seems to me to be just plain poor taste and judgment. It’s kind of like using Jeffrey Dahmer as an opportunity to discuss anti-sodomy laws. It’s worse than that, actually, because most people simply aren’t ready to consider that 13 year olds have the tools necessary to consent or not to having sex with 40-year-olds. This case--with its addition of alcohol and drugs into the mix--isn’t going to warm them up to the idea. This isn't the environment in which to calmly or even passionately debate the wisdom/hypocrisy/puritanism of our consent laws.

Should articles like this be banned? Absolutely not. Should writers know better than to write articles like this at moments like this? Who knows? Not me.

Now, should editors know better than to publish shit like this at moments like this? I think they *should* know better. I think it says something about how broken American society is that editors like Tina Brown simply don’t know better--or don’t *care*--to use restraint at a moment like this. Do I think Tina Brown should be punished for publishing an article like this? No. I really am a first amendment absolutist. It's her right and prerogative to publish what she wants. But I think it's a sign of dysfunction in a free society when the media lose all power to censor themselves, according to certain standards of judgment and taste, and publish just anything at all because it's just anything at all. It would be one thing if it were only Tina Brown who shows no standards as far as taste goes. But this inability and unwillingness to self-censor is not the exception, it's the rule.

I might not have been moved to make this observation if the DB article didn't reek of opportunism. The author seems eager to exploit the Polanski case even if it offers a very poor example for his argument that 13 might be old enough for consent. This piece doesn't seem concerned about what 13 year olds want and are old enough to decide. It's all about how young is too young to fuck and not get in trouble with the law.

I suppose I sound like a conservative, complaining about how anything goes in this day and age. But I think the same thing that disinhibits Tina Brown from publishing an article like this at this moment is what disinhibits the right wing from calling for Obama’s assassination or deposition by the military. A society that can't discern and discriminate intellectually is going to wind up making nothing but a lot of noise.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. I say it should be whatever age their state allows them to drive a car.
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gkhouston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yep. I always want to have the option of running down my paramour if the sex is lousy.
Worked for Laura Bush, didn't it?
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. OOoh... good point.
Edited on Thu Oct-01-09 03:13 PM by Ian David
Michael Dutton Douglas
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Michael Dutton Douglas (November 16, 1945 – November 6, 1963) was the 17-year-old former boyfriend of Laura Welch (later First Lady Laura Bush)<1> who was killed when Welch, also 17, failed to stop at a stop sign while driving and broadsided his vehicle. Welch was not ticketed or charged in connection with the collision.

Douglas and Welch were students together at Robert E. Lee High School in Midland, Texas. Douglas has been described as an active athlete, physically attractive, and intelligent. He was nominated as the school's most popular male student while a junior, an honor typically awarded only to graduating high school seniors.

In May 2000, a two-page police report detailing the fatal crash was made public. The report revealed that on November 6, 1963, Welch was driving her Chevrolet Impala sedan with one passenger (Judy Dykes, also 17). It was a clear Wednesday night, shortly after 8 p.m., when Welch entered the intersection of State Highway 349 and Farm to Market Road 868 (now Loop 250) (at 32°02′37″N 102°05′07″W / 32.04362300°N 102.08530400°W / 32.04362300; -102.08530400

).<2> Welch failed to observe the intersection's stop sign and collided into Douglas' Chevrolet Corvair sedan. Welch and Dykes sustained minor injuries; Douglas was pronounced dead on arrival at Midland Memorial Hospital. Welch was not charged with any offense.

The future First Lady made a brief remark in March 2000 about the crash, "I know this as an adult, and even more as a parent, it was crushing ... for the family involved and for me as well."<3>

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Dutton_Douglas


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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Took me a second to get this comment....
...:rofl:
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. I hear somewhere that a girl died after a few days trying to give
Edited on Thu Oct-01-09 03:00 PM by roguevalley
birth at 12. If you have to ask about the age, they are too young. Sometimes I wonder what parallel dimension I'm stuck in.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think that each society should set its own age of consent.
Only that society knows the nature of that society.

Even in the US, different states have different laws. All of that seems to be appropriate to me.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. some societies marry kids at nine and kids become full time wives
Edited on Thu Oct-01-09 03:04 PM by roguevalley
at little much older. That is problematic to me in a big way. Also, having sex too early can cause health issues and raise cervical cancer rates.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. The thing is, what would we do about that?
We have plenty of problems of our own.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
5. At 13, there is little concept about how having sex will effect you emotionally.
Of course, having sex at 13 with someone close to your age is different and effects you differently then having sex with an adult.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Exactly....
...two 13 year olds screwing around is totally understandable. And adult taking advantage of a 13 year old is an entirely different manner and is criminal conduct in every state in the USA.
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Raejeanowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. Agreed
In your example, while two 13 year olds might not exactly be desirable in eyes of a parent, it's a mutual expression of puppy love or raging hormones or experimentation...not adult-on-child molestation...which was part of the Polanski situation.
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thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. I agree. Consentual sex between early teens gets a "real talking to" but even a 16 yr old seducing
a 13 yr old ... is kinda shaky and certainly needs counseling and supervision.

If the NO is ever uttered .. it's NO. I don't care if your naked and nearly engaged ... it's NO.

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. Research "fistulas" in places with child brides
I realize that these are caused by pregnancies, but that particular health epidemic is pretty clear evidence that 13 year old girls are physically not supposed to be having sex.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
7. "Should you know better" than to start this thread?
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I debated over whether to start it.
I thought it had the chance to provoke some thought about what responsibility the media have in society. That seems like an important question to consider.
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WeekendWarrior Donating Member (849 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. I think it depends on the age of the partner, but sixteen seems about right
A two year gap perhaps?

There's something truly sick about a twenty-two year old dating a sixteen year old, but eighteen and sixteen doesn't seem so bad.

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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
11. It should depend on how old the other person is. ...
A 15 year-old should not be arrested for having consensual sex with a 13 year-old, but anyone over 18 should be.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
12. I suppose it depends on the individual.
As far as the law is concerned? I don't know.

Obviously there are gray areas.

Seems awful absurd, from a moral perspective, that something could be perfectly legal and acceptable in one state, but "rape" in another.
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
15. You do know that all the responses will be based on how we were raised...
..by that I mean as Americans.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
16. Ugh. The blogger seems to be arguing that sex with preteens should be legal
Because men want to have sex with them even more because it's not. :wtf: :puke: No mention at all of what the young person might desire or the power differential involved.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
18. Whatever age you have to stop paying child support at
:)
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
19. Was the book Coming of age in Samoa? By Margaret Mead.
Where 13 -year-old boys would go through sexual initiations with older women, essentially so they could become good lovers beacuse sex for them was about enjoyment, there wasn't a stigma to it like we have, and it wasn't such a big deal like in some cultures.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
21. Some very few kids are physically and emotionally ready at 13 -
boys and girls alike - but not the vast majority of them. I don't think you can legislate for all based on the few. By 16, the vast majority are physically and emotionally ready for sex. Some are not. Some aren't at 21. Some will never be. They are usually republicans.

I think that the age of consent should be 16, and 'legal' age of adulthood should be 18 in regards to contracts, marriage, drinking, driving, etc. If a 16 or 17 year old gets legally emancipated, the court and declare them legal adults for all other purposes as well.

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27inCali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
24. 18
and even that is a little distasteful if the age difference is over 10 years.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
25. It depends on individual and the age of the other person.
Edited on Thu Oct-01-09 03:59 PM by Odin2005
I don't see anything necessarily wrong with two 13yos having sex as long as somebody's using birth control and/or condoms, even if the two are not totally emotionally mature they are at least equal in their immaturity. I reject the notion that there is some risk of permanent psychological harm if younger teens have sex with their peers, it's just lingering Victorian Age nonsense about the supposed "innocence" of kids. But if the other person is 17 or older I definitely would have a problem with it.

My opinion is that it's stupid to prevent teens from having sex, just make sure they are using contraception. But that doesn't mean it's OK for older individuals to have sex with them.
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Liquorice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
26. If you have to ask, it's too young. nt
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