Why fundies are so big on spanking...

[Jackpine Radical]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20090925/hl_hsn/spankingmaylowerkidsiqs

Spanking May Lower Kids' IQs

In looking at spanking ... in the United States, Straus and a fellow researcher reviewed data on IQ scores from 806 children between 2 and 4 years old and another 704 kids aged 5 to 9.
When their IQs were tested again four years later, children in the younger group who were not spanked scored five points higher, on average, than did children who had been spanked. In the group of older children, spanking resulted in an average loss of 2.8 points.

"How often parents spanked made a difference," Straus said in a news release from the university. "The more spanking, the slower the development of the child's mental ability. But even small amounts of spanking made a difference."

Dr. Rahil Briggs, a child psychologist with the Children's Hospital at Montefiore in New York City, said she believes that "discipline should be an opportunity to teach your child something."
"If you spank, you teach your child that hitting is the way to deal with a situation," she said. "But if you use other methods of discipline, you can begin teaching your child higher-level cognitive skills, self-control, cause-and-effect and logical thinking."

Briggs said that previous research has clearly shown that when children are in negative stressful situations, it can actually change the architecture of their brains and impair certain neural processes.

[Why Syzygy]

1. Not sure what you're suggesting...

But the reason they advocate spanking is much darker than dumbing down their kids.


(...)But I credit Dobson, who has the third largest radio show in America, whose organization Focus on the Family has $150 million in its coffers and thirty-six policy councils in the States and is widely credited for electing George W. Bush and the Republican Congress in 2004, with cultivating the sensibility of the movement that I’m writing about in my book, Republican Gomorrah, that controls the Republican Party.

Dobson is a fascinating figure, because although he’s leading what is widely considered a religious movement, he’s not a religious leader. He has no theological credentials. He’s not a preacher. What is he? He’s a child psychologist. And the way that he’s won so many followers is by, you know, doing radio shows about common, mundane problems, like bedwetting, for example, or dealing with a child that has, you know, issues with their sexuality, something like that. And he has a correspondence department in Focus on the Family that’s so large it occupies an entire zip code in Colorado Springs. People write in with their personal problems. He sends them—his workers send them Dobson-approved advice. After they get into the database that Dobson maintains, he bombards them with political mailings and slowly cultivates them into Republican shock troops. So Dobson has, you know, turned personal crisis into political resentment. (...)

Where did Dobson’s fortune come from? How did he erect this empire? It came mainly from one book, which I quote from extensively in my book, Republican Gomorrah—Dare to Discipline, which is essentially a manual for corporal punishment, for beating your child. In this book, he says pain is a marvelous purifier that a child should be—that pain goes a long way with a child, that pain should be dispensed sufficiently enough to make a child cry, but then the child will crumple to your breast, and you should welcome the child with warm, open arms. This is a recipe for sadomasochism. And sadomasochism, as I discovered in—

JUAN GONZALEZ: And he saw himself originally as the antithesis to Benjamin—Dr. Benjamin Spock.

MAX BLUMENTHAL: Dr. Benjamin Spock, who tells you to basically pick your child up and cradle it. And, you know, I mean, I was—you know, for whatever it’s worth, I was raised along those guidelines. When your child’s crying, you pick up the child.

By creating a belt-wielding army of millions, Dobson created the next generation of Republican shock troops, who are more radical than before. And sadomasochism—I know this sounds a little strange—is what defines the essential character, you know, that—this is what—at least what I’ve discovered—of the Republican follower of today. They’re sadistic in that they want to lash out at deviants, at people who are weaker than them, homosexuals, immigrants, foreigners, socialists. At the same time, they’re masochistic. They are followers of a higher cause, of a strong leader, a magic helper like Dobson or George W. Bush or the macho Jesus archetype that they worship. And this is what defines this movement. (...)

When Gingrich decided to resurrect his political career, he decided—the Republican Party is controlled by the Christian right. He’s not a stupid man. “What do I do? I have to confess all of my sins by going on James Dobson’s radio show,” catering to the culture of personal crisis that lurks behind the right’s politics of resentment. And so, that’s exactly what he did. He basically prostrated himself before Dobson, who has, you know, no political—supposedly has no political standing. And the next thing you know, he’s back on the national stage. He’s welcomed at the Christian right gatherings. You can see him on Fox News now. So, that shows, you know, how powerful Dobson is. But it’s not just Dobson; it’s a mentality that defines conservatism. (...)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=217823&mesg_id=217823

[Blue_In_AK]

95. I just came from a discussion with Max Blumenthal

at the UU church down the street. This is his first trip back to Alaska since he came up here and exposed Sarah Palin last summer. What a very smart guy! I'm proud to have my autographed copy of his new book -- the 20 copies that he brought to the talk are apparently the only ones left in the entire state of Alaska, so I feel fortunate. :)

[Blue_In_AK]

96. Dupe, sorry

Twitchy fingers.

[Shell Beau]

2. It isn't just fundies who spank their children.

They probably do so more than others, but spanking is still used by many parents.

[wolfgangmo]

34. Draw it as a Venn diagram.

Not all parents who spank are fundies, but all fundies are parents who spank.

[elleng]

3. Of course I 'knew' this,

so why are there tears in my eyes?

[hobbit709]

4. Damn, I'd be a genius then.

Considering that my IQ is a 138, and I got whomped often enough way back then.

[Demeter]

8. 138 IS Genius Level and You Qualify for Mensa, My Friend

Welcome to the club!

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

36. What is mensa?

143 here... and I got spanked as a kid (with a paddle). Probably a dozen or so times - not a lot to be honest.
I suspect I was able to learn REAL QUICK what kind of behaviours led to a red behind, and thus to avoid such behaviour.
Some of the more expedient lessens were learned in the kitchen, where mom had ready access to spatulas and frying pans. :D

Article should read, "Of kids who receive spankings, kids with lower IQs get spanked more."
Not surprising.

[Demeter]

40. Mensa Is an International Non-Profit Social and Educational Organization

Open to all with IQ results of 132 (Stanford Binet or equivalent) or above.

It is a place where those who are not average can meet and pursue their interests, intellectual or otherwise, with others who speak their "language" and have walked in their shoes.

Introvert or extrovert, word or math or both, one can find common experience and fun, whether you like to pub crawl or do jigsaw puzzles or something else entirely.

The next Annual Gathering will be held in my hometown, Detroit, bringing US and Canadians together for the 4th of July week. It will be a blast!

http://www.us.mensa.org//AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home

[Demeter]

41. Delf-deleted dupe

computer crashed

[Deja Q]

68. According to the article, I could have been 133.8... oh well. You'd have been 140.8...

:D

[laundry_queen]

86. Same here.

Considering I wasn't breastfed (average 10 pt loss) AND was spanked (2.8 pts) my IQ should have been 142.8. But it's not.

[blueamy66]

89. I'm with you.

I should be at a mildly able to feed myself level.

[blueamy66]

90. I'm with you.

I should be at a mildly able to feed myself level.

[redqueen]

5. Wow, that silly child psychologist thinks spanking is "hitting"...

she should ask the experts on DU about that!

;)


Not surprised to hear this. Stress is never helpful, and being hit by those who are supposed to care about you above all others, your protectors, your loving parents... well... that seems about as stressful as it gets.

People like to rationalize that it's 'only a swat'... but young children can't rationalize it that way. I imagine they see it simply for what it is... hitting.

[bullwinkle428]

54. Being hit as a child made me NOT WANT TO HAVE KIDS OF MY OWN!

I honestly wasn't sure if I could actually raise a child without resorting to the same kind of shit I had to deal with as a child myself.

I ended up marrying a woman who was previously married and had a 3-year-old daughter who I helped to raise. Sadly, I did spank her on one occasion, and felt horrible enough afterward that I never ended up doing it again...

[Deja Q]

69. Being an Aspie, I lack the emotional balance required... not to mention PTSD...

And as seeing children in various activities are "triggers" to some of my past, I avoid schools. I don't care to remember...

[seabeyond]

6. spare teh rod spoil the child. they dont trust. they think all out of control. we are all sinners

is the first thing that is taught to kids. over and over and over. what happens when we are taught we are all sinners. we have to make ti true.

and there is such a fear of sinnin

[Echo In Light]

11. And the pro-hitting crowd are usually big on *demanding* "respect," too

Another telltale sign that perpetuates the authoritarian streak; RESPECT your elders!....or else!

Gee, that kinda sounds like how an empire bully's a third world country.

[seabeyond]

14. ya. the respect thing is a funny too. having conversation other day about spanking with youngest

he didnt see it as big deal, but then i never used it as a tool. told him, how much sense does it make

yack, dont hit, yack yack, your, yack, brother, yack yack.

lol

he says

ya... i see.

the things with kids as they are being hit, see the disrespect in that very action and hypocrisy of parent. that is a killer for parenting and kids are that perceptive.

[HopeHoops]

13. All the kids I ever knew who got hit were violent assholes AND spoiled.

Violence teaches violence. If you teach a child that hitting is the solution, then that becomes the solution. You can wield far more power with words than you can with a hand.

[seabeyond]

19. the worst, is it is a momentary fear. whereas taking the time (and takes lots of time)

to continually reinforce, set example, talk talk talk, be consistent will establish a sturdy strong foundation and the child will do right because he thought it thru and wanted to do right. not cause fear of a momentary pain.

eventually the child no longer fears the hit. and they dont have the knowledge to make the good decisions, cause it was never about thinking. was more a Pavlov dog response with spanking as controller.

[HopeHoops]

25. The main thing is to set rules and ENFORCE THEM!

Rules are of no use if the parent gives in when the kid whines. How many times have you seen a parent saying "no, no, no, no, well okay if you just stop whining"? What the fuck is wrong with people? "No" means "No".

There is no excuse for hitting a child. The act is nothing more than parental inadequacy.

[seabeyond]

26. isnt that the truth. no no no, ok. lol. nt

[HopeHoops]

32. Oh it gets worse. My wife teaches kindergarten - she's seen it all (read on)

Earlier this week, one of her "princesses" was whining because she didn't have her sunglasses when daddy dropped her off. He spent ten minutes apologizing because "daddy forgot her sunglasses but didn't have time to run home to get them." She was eating it up, fake crying and whining for attention. Eventually, my wife got fed up with it and suggested he get the fuck out of there. She sulked in a corner for a minute or two before my wife went over and said, "You're a big girl! You're old enough to remember your own sunglasses. Next time, make sure you remember them. Now go join the group." She sniffled and went over to be with the others and that was the end of the issue. That kid OWNS her dad and KNOWS it!

[seabeyond]

43. lol and why does any kindergartener have sunglasses at school. lol

i know, i know. i have kids. i see the shit all the time. your wife being a kindergarten teacher? well, geez. how teachers get it from all sides. let her know...

i think teachers do a kick ass job. i am appreciative.

[HopeHoops]

46. Oh, the sad thing is that she's one of the GOOD kids.

The richer they are, the more spoiled they are. The center offers daycare in addition to state-certified kindergarten - 6:30 am - 6:30 pm. She has kids that show up before she does, leave after she does, and when she asks what everyone had for dinner, the answer is either "Wendy's", "McDonald's", or "Burger King". The kids eat dinner on the way home in the SUV while watching a movie on the headrest screen and then go to bed. The so called "parents" have almost no involvement with their children - they are a bother.

She also has kids from parents who are seriously struggling. They have problems too, but being spoiled isn't common - anger is. One is a single mom in the N.G. who was recently redeployed - grandparents are taking over. Another single mom works three jobs and one of them is just to pay for the kid staying there all day. That kid is perhaps her most well behaved student and somehow the mother finds time to read to him. I don't know how she gets any sleep!

[seabeyond]

52. ah, hopehoop, you are so right on in your accessment.

this is what i see too. my kids middle school is money, white, professional, educated. and kids highschool is lower income, diversity. and it is so true on both counts.

this is why i am so concerned on many of the du threads, both genders, for our kids. we are sending them out in the world to raise themselves. and it really is not a good thing for any of us.

five days a week i cook and we sit as a family. weekend more open, but mostly sit and eat. it is all about connecting and talking and i eat really really slow. my favorite time of the day. it really matters. kids tell me how often their friends eat out. we hardly ever do restaurant and fast food every couple weeks.

my kids 12 and 15 and they still have booktime at night. they do the reading, lol. but since baby, bath, booktime, bed....

my oldest started freshman yr and does cross country after school, so pick up is later. he will talk from time get in car, i pull in drive, shut off and we just sit in car talking. until he has talked enough

it doesnt take much. just time.

[HopeHoops]

53. My eldest just entered college - confident, strong, and never hit.

She almost got a free ride to a 40K/yr college (academics). Spending time with children is the most valuable gift you can ever bestow upon them.

[surrealAmerican]

55. Those kids who are there for 12 hours ...

... and eat in the car are not "spoiled", they're "neglected". We, as a society, need to define these terms so that parents will understand that depriving your child of your time is worse than depriving them of your money.

[HopeHoops]

59. "Neglected" primarily, but spoiled as well.

They expect everything to be as they demand or they throw tantrums. And yes, I agree. Time is the most precious thing you can give your child.

[DollyM]

75. I had to laugh when I read this . . .

Many years ago, I was sustitute teaching a class of kindergarten kids. There was this one little red haired girl, still remember her, that was giving me fits. She wouldn't participate, wouldn't get in line, etc. While the kids were coloring a project, she decided to decorate her desk instead. When I caught her, I told her she would be cleaning that up and looked me right in the eye and said "no, my daddy will clean it when he gets here!" I realized then why the little girl had the attitude problem that she did because obviously "daddy" did a lot of cleaning up her personal messes. I assurred her that she would be cleaning her own mess and gave her paper towels and soap and she sulked a bit and started cleaning. She was glad to see Daddy when he got there and turned on the water works and I reminded her that she still needed to finish cleaning and throw away the paper towels. She looked at Daddy to bail her out and he looked confused for a moment but told her to do as her teacher said. She glared at me and finished the job. I didn't sub for that class again but often wondered if that day did something for her. I hope so. Kids need to know that they have a personal responsibility in their lives to clean up their messes, big or small. Otherwise, we have adults who make "messes" and expect someone else to clean them up. Our prisons are full of people with this mindset.

[seabeyond]

79. last visit with nieces, 11 and 13 told me their father threw fit, emptied all drawers middle of

floor and told them to clean up the room. (messy room, kids not keeping clean, drawers stuffed adn messy). they told me their mother made dad clean it up.

no way, i said, no way...

way they said with big old smiles. they were so proud mom made dad clean it up

would never happen in this house. would never cut father down like that and especially in front of kids. would never give kids that power. IF father unjust, i might have helped kids clean all the while telling them where dad was coming from and their responsibility in it

but never MAKE dad clean it up

i cannot imagine how that came about

[HopeHoops]

94. I agree, but ultimately it is the failure of the parent.

What the fuck happened? When my wife and I were growing up (we're both 46), there were a handful of spoiled brats and shitheads. There also weren't a lot of fat kids and I would say the vast majority of them were genetically large.

Now it seems that the equation has been reversed. Normal weight parents show up with a pair of whining nasty weebles and dump them for the school to deal with. I'm shocked when I see how pudgy these kids are, and it isn't because they are "big boned" - it is diet and lack of exercise. They expect everything to go their way and throw tantrums if they don't get what they want. My wife does not tolerate that, but unfortunately most of the other teachers do. They're afraid to be confronted by the parents. My wife isn't. She puts them in their place as well.

What the fuck happened? To be fair, most of the parents I'm talking about are ten to twenty years younger than us, but they would have been raised by those our age and slightly older. We seemed to have a fairly consistent view of what is socially acceptable and what is not. How can the current collection of parents be so detached from it all? Don't they look at their kids and think, "wow, that's a lazy, fat, whining brat"?

No, they've got the parental equivalent of beer goggles. The kids OWN the parents. They get whatever they want and are shocked when someone of authority denies them their demands.

Nobody who knows me would call me a prude (but they might get a good belly laugh out of the suggestion). There is just something fundamentally wrong with parents today. There are no bad kids - just bad parents.

[Deja Q]

70. Let's meet for lunch and I'll show you a person who bucks that stereotype...

:hi: :)


Not the words bit, the "anyone who got hit was a violent, spoiled asshole" bit. :D

I think the key is "context" when it comes to discipline...

[seabeyond]

78. so true. i was punished that way. worked for me. but then a talking to would have worked for me

my two brothers, didnt work at all. but then a talking to probably wouldnt have worked at all on them either, lol.

[Demeter]

7. I Know a Psychopath Whose Parents Proudly Assured Me They Never Spanked

I hate to tell you how much misery he has caused this world to date, not knowing where his ego stops and the rest of the world begins.

[redqueen]

9. Spoken as if the only way to teach kids is through hitting.

It's well-known that "teaching" animals this way is counterproductive and inefficient... yet some still insist on claiming it's just fine for kids.

[Demeter]

10. There Are Some Lessons That Can Be Taught No Other Way

and some people who are incapable of learning through other means.

If you really want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, just keep advocating simple-minded solutions to complex problems, and accept the most unverified data available.

Meanwhile, let's see what kind of kids YOU produce!

[redqueen]

12. Agree to disagree.

And this? "Meanwhile, let's see what kind of kids YOU produce!"

All I can say is... how very unsurprising to see such an ignorant, ugly comment from you.

How very utterly unsurprising.

[Echo In Light]

17. Hey, after all, you disagreed, so an attack on your maternal capacities was warranted

:sarcasm:

[Lorien]

28. What a load of bullshit

I was never spanked and neither were most of my friends. Our parents all worked in a highly academic community and they thought of spanking as something that is only done by rednecks and the type of people you see on the Springer show. It is! The proof is in the above study. We were disciplined by being sent to our rooms, having privileges taken away, given extra chores to do, etc. I ended up just fine and most of my friends ended up as doctors, city planners, architects, one is even a professor of philosophy at Harvard. The "no other way" crowd is filled it unimaginative brutish thugs who HAVE had the intelligence beaten out of them!

[pipi_k]

29. OK here is the main problem I have with corporal "discipline"

I'm not even going to call it "punishment" for the sake of my point...


Questions:

What lessons can only be taught that way?

Would you advocate for using corporal "discipline", for example, in the workplace setting? Against adults?

If not, why not? Why do people who are for corporal "discipline" only think it's right when it involves children? Because they can't fight back?

[Echo In Light]

42. B/c bullies/authoritarians see the obvious advantage in perpetuating their beliefs against...

... the defenseless: defenseless to fight back, and to muster a well reasoned argument against the aims of those who have power over them. And on an unconscious level there's the notion of people wanting to impose their personal belief systems on others in general. Children are an easy mark for such types.

[Bill McBlueState]

38. the data show that spanking is a poor parenting strategy

This must be why you have to resort to anecdotes and ad hominems to make your point.

[Demeter]

44. What? You Can Only Accept ONE Kind of Anecdote?

What kind of reason is that you're using?

[Demeter]

49. What Data?

Your data?

[Bill McBlueState]

88. it's in the OP n/t

[yodermon]

58. "simple-minded solutions to complex problems"

um, like spanking?
:think:

[Zoeisright]

97. Have you ever watched Supernanny?

Don't make fun. She takes kids I would have no problem spanking (and I am VERY non-violent) and turns them around with discipline alone. NO hitting. NO spanking. NO mean words. NO violence.

Spanking is the simple-minded solution, not genuine discipline and effort.

Her main emphasis is: Who are the adults here?

[rd_kent]

15. Have you ever watched the Dog Whisperer?

He advocates when the dog is not listening, a quick tap or pinch on the neck will bring them in line. It replicates what a mother dog does (they actually bite the neck, you know) and is akin to giving a child a swat on the rear.

Your idea that animals do not respond to this is flat wrong. Beating an animal IS counterproductive, disciplining is not. You and I have gone a few rounds on this subject already, and it was apparent that we will never agree, so I dont want to debate it again. I just wanted to correct your mistaken idea that this method does not work on animals.

[redqueen]

22. Fair enough. Anyone who wants to parent their child as a dog would do a pup

is obviously free to do as they please.

[rd_kent]

24. NO, you dont get off THAT easy! You continually make that statement that it does not work

on animals, and when proven wrong, you then disparage "Anyone who wants to parent their child as a dog would do a pup". You could NOT BE more disingenuous, as YOUR argument was TOTALLY false, yet you wont recognize that fact. I now know that YOU will NEVER be able to admit when you are wrong.

[redqueen]

27. What does "fair enough" mean to you?

Here, I'll satisfy your need for VICTORY!!!! (my ex has the same issues, so I get it, really... the overreaction... the spittle-flecked post... I shouldn't find it amusing but I'm only human)

I was wrong. It's accepted that hitting works to train animals because that's what animal mothers do.

Does that work for you?

[rd_kent]

61. Nope, because your use if "hitting" is nothing more than subtle condescension.

Your attempt to hide your disingenuous nature is not working. I dont need "victory", I just need to make my point without you trying to give me some backhanded concession.

[redqueen]

62. Hitting is hitting. It's not condescension, it's just what it is.

You can qualify it as "only light hitting" if you like, but it's still hitting.

[rd_kent]

64. So you think that Ceasar Milan hits his dogs?

When he taps them on the neck to correct them THATS hitting? As stated before, IMO, there is a DIFFERENCE between hitting and spanking.

[redqueen]

65. I don't know, I've never seen him do it.

I'm curious now, though. Anyway, the subject here is not dogs, it's children.

Do people "tap" their children, in order to 'discipline' them, do you think?

[rd_kent]

72. No, the subject IS dogs. YOU brought it up.

And I equate that "tap" to a spank on the bottom. I'm done with you, you will NEVER be able to see this from my shoes, since in my shoes there is room for interpretation. Your shoes have no room at all and cause bunions. Good Day.

[redqueen]

74. LOL

You really enjoy the melodrama, don't you?

Good day. :)

[rd_kent]

76. No, just crushing bad arguments.

[redqueen]

80. The funny thing is that I was close to actually agreeing with you!

:rofl:

[rd_kent]

81. And now your not?

:shrug:

[redqueen]

82. Didn't say that...

it's just that I want to see exactly what this tapping entails.

Some people call it a 'swat' when they're actually hitting hard enough to move the child with the force of the hit.

If it's a literal tap, with no more force than to refocus attention, then I would tend to agree that that doesn't quite qualify as hitting.

[rd_kent]

83. OK, thanks for that.

I guess there is room in your shoes after all.

:toast:

[redqueen]

85. My pleasure!

I seem to come off as waaaaay more unyielding than I actually am.

:hi:

[Demeter]

31. Exactly So

thank you for speaking sense here. Ever watch a cat raising kittens?

[Bluenorthwest]

37. I'm calling foul on your lexicon

The person you are jumping on said hitting animals is counter productive, and she did not say what you claim she said at all. You changed the subject from 'hitting' to 'disciplining' and presented that as the other poster's idea. She said hitting. So. Do would you say it is helpful to hit animals as part of their training? Really? Hitting them? Because that is what you seem to be defending, as that is the assertion you are taking disagreement with. Hitting animals is not productive. So she's right, you are wrong, and you are making a fight for no reason, unless you advocate hitting animals.
Do you advocate hitting animals? Please be clear about that. Hard to know what your point is, as you spend so much time rewording other people's points.

[rd_kent]

63. I dont advocate hitting ANYTHING. Check out the other threads before jumping in.

Redqueeen and I have had several verbal jousts that always seem to boil down to our disagreement on what is spanking and what is hitting. She uses tha argument that hitting animals does not work. As I stated in my post earlier, what The dog Whisperer does is not hitting, and I apply the same logic to a swat on the behind of my child.

[Jackpine Radical]

30. They probably also didn't interact much with him in a positive way, either.

I believe, based on developmental psychobiological evidence, that psychopathy has its origin in the period in the first two years of life, especially the second year, the period between about 12 and 24 months. It is at that point that an area of the brain technically known as the right orbitofrontal cortex is being formed, and it requires a lot of communicative action between the infant and a caregiver in order to form properly. Deficits in this area of the brain, which lies on the frontal under-surface just behind the right eye, cause the child to fail to develop the notion that others are like them inside, with emotions and desires and intelligence. Kids who don't "get" that information eventually grow up into conscienceless monsters, to whom other people are mere objects that exist for the psychopath's gratification.

[Demeter]

35. They Were Lovely, Educated, Upper Class Minor Nobility, What they call Well-Born

And he was sorely in need of a check on his ego. Kinda like W, without the drunkenness.

[ieoeja]

45. You ignored what the poster said.

The poster said he was probably ignored. You gave a description of his family which mentioned absolutely nothing about the probability he was ignored while growing up. "Upper-class nobility" sounds like the type who'd expect nannies, teachers, coaches, etc to raise their kid for them leaving the kid with a feeling of detachment.

Most criminals in this country were disciplined more heavily by their parents than were the rest of us. But there are still plenty who were not. The one commonality both types have in their upbringing: their parents didn't show them much love.

And, no, buying them shit isn't showing them love.

[Demeter]

47. I Said Well-born, not wealthy

and these parents were not neglectful.

[sybylla]

57. Wow, that explains my nephew exactly.

He's not to monster stage yet, but he is pretty conscienceless. He was terribly neglected by his biological parents as a very young child and social services was zero help. He was over two by the time his grandparents got him away from them. Truth be told, they haven't done him any service - constantly denying he's not normal and perfect.

But I've probably told you this already. ;-)

Good to see you're still out here making these amazing posts.

[Prophet 451]

93. Wouldn't have mattered either way

The psychopath isn't made, he's born. It's probably best to think of psychopathy as a form of birth defect. They are actually incapable of feeling empathy or love in the same way as we do, everything is designed purely for self-interest.

You may be thinking of sociopaths (same symptoms but created enviromentally) but even there, the causes are never, ever as simplistic as whether or not they were spanked as kids.

[LWolf]

16. Related classroom discussion last week:

One of my classes is exploring the functions of government, and public policy, and how citizens influence public policy.

One day we debated public vs private policy; I'd throw out a statement, and they would take a stand, and then defend that stand, about whether they think that issue should be resolved privately or publicly.

One statement dealt with hitting children as punishment.

The class was pretty evenly divided, with one group saying it should be public policy, with the government ensuring that parents didn't hit kids. Their biggest reason? "I don't like to be hit."

The other half, though, all spoke up in support of spanking; some admitted to still being spanked as middle schoolers, and said that they felt they "deserved" it. The reasons?

"Some kids won't listen unless they are spanked." "Parents have a right to do what they want with their kids." "Nobody wants government interfering with their family."

They all, of course, zeroed in on the terminology I used; "hit," instead of "spank." The pro-spankers wanted to clarify that "spanking" did not injure, and was not abuse, and did not include all "hitting."

I teach in a rural, conservative, fundie area. I can attest that students (and their parents) aren't critical thinkers; in my area, the majority are anti-intellectuals. That anti-intellectual, resistance to thinking or to things new or different attitude is certainly part of why their learning progresses at a slower rate than in some other places I've taught. I can't attest to its affect on their IQ's, or how that might relate to family discipline patterns. ;)

[TexasObserver]

18. This sure helps explain "But I was spanked and I turned out OK!"

[redqueen]

21. *roffle*

[Deja Q]

73. Find me in public and you'll find one who, when not hasting to get out of crowds,

is VERY cognizant and respectful of what I do in store corridors, aisles, and so on. Or in most public areas and situations.

My question is: What's going on that make most people bang other cars with their car doors or shopping carts, or take up the whole aisle by mis-positioning the cart... or using the handicapped scooters to play "catch" with your friends...

Ironically, for once I am not the sheltered one. I won't deny I have problems. But I think many in today's society have a hell of a lot more problems, particularly when it comes to basic common courtesy and public demeanor.

On the plus side, I'm just a reactionary. Those committing the actions -- :think:

[TexasObserver]

87. As Spock would say, that's not logical.

Your logic:

You were spanked.

You are mindful of a duty to others in public and you perceive others to not be as mindful as you.

You attribute your superior approach to your having been spanked, and you infer that those who are not as mindful as you of social duties were not spanked.



See how crazy that is?

[Arugula Latte]

20. Fundies are all about control: Men controlling women. Parents controlling children.

They have "issues."

[pipi_k]

23. On spanking vs verbal abuse and threats

I can only recall being hit a few times by my father. My mother used to hit/slap us a lot more.

You know what hurt a lot more?


Seeing my parents engaged in physical violence against each other. Throwing plates of food around, hot soup, knocking over the Christmas tree, ripping the phone out of the wall, breaking my mother's jaw with a beer bottle, Dad trying to strangle Mom (she bore the marks of his fingers on her neck at my 10th birthday party).

Then there were the threats against us kids. We didn't need to be hit. All Dad had to say to us was, in one case where Mom was going to pack us up and leave him, that "The first one who moves I'll knock through the wall".

I don't in any way advocate spanking or hitting of any kind...but I do feel sad that there isn't more attention paid to the damage that can be done to kids who may not have been spanked with any regularity but have been victims of threats against them and parental violence against each other.

Sometimes I think that I would have preferred being spanked if only my parents hadn't tried to kill each other or threatened to knock us through walls, etc.

[redqueen]

33. I thought it was well known that violence at home

is extremely detrimental for all involved, even if no physical violence is involved. Some people make light of emotional abuse, but that makes it no less real... and I'm sure the vast majority of psychologists would never diminish the effects.

[pipi_k]

39. I don't know if it really is that well known, though

among laymen, I mean.

I do know that it's taken very seriously in the mental health sectors.

But regular people? Nahhh


That's why I don't really talk about it much in real life. I can't handle the blank stares of people who think that it's not "real" abuse unless you get the shit beaten out of you.

[Jackpine Radical]

51. Emotional abuse is often worse in its consequences than physical.

It tends to severely damage people's self-esteem and their sense of being worthy of love. The constant message of worthlessness and inadequacy has its pervasive effects, and people end up blaming themselves and feeling global shame. With the kind of abuse that leaves bruises and scars, you are at least more likely to recognize that you were abused and treated badly instead of just thinking that you deserved your emotional abuse because of your unworthiness.

[redqueen]

67. Thanks for this post. I hope everyone reads it.

"With the kind of abuse that leaves bruises and scars, you are at least more likely to recognize that you were abused and treated badly instead of just thinking that you deserved your emotional abuse because of your unworthiness."

I don't think I've ever seen such an excellent summation of how insidiously horrible that kind of abuse can be.

[Zoeisright]

98. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

But it isn't an either-or choice. It's not 'spanking or verbal abuse'. ALL violence, whether physical, verbal, or emotional, is damaging. It's all bad and all unnecessary.

[Beer on a stick]

48. Ohhhhh yeeeeeeaaaaaahhhhh. It's all about the childhood Jesus spankin'

[Echo In Light]

50. LOL - horrifying, though, given how many actually believe it

[yodermon]

56. is that a jack chick comic by any chance?

cuz it's about that over-the-top.

[Joe Fields]

60. It's bad when child psychologists can't tell the difference..

"If you spank, you teach your child that hitting is the way to deal with a situation,"

For the one millionth time, spanking is not hitting.

I spanked my child. Didn't have to spank him much. He was a quick learner. Now, not only did he graduate High School with honors, he's working, going to school, is well adjusted AND well behaved.

Imagine that!!!

[Deja Q]

66. Only the cretin who wrote that "news" has a low IQ. Unless,

of course, if I wasn't spanked, even for things I didn't know I did apparently, maybe my IQ would be, apparently, 133.8?

Yeah, big shitter of a difference.

:rolleyes:

Forgive my attitude. What you posted isn't news. Unless it came from FOX since they froth over that shallow, unsubstantiated, sensationalistic tripe.

Indeed. In grade, middle, and high school, there were more than enough situations to make me sue and win big bucks (I endured far more shit than the wankers who are suing now and winning, but I digress). My grades WERE bad. Due to environmental factors only, as I shall explain the difference:

My grades started going up AFTER I went into college. Right now, anyway, 18 years separating my previous tenure and now, I am a straight-A student. So I WILL agree ambient environment is a factor. Far more so than providing a spanking.

And like I've said before, schools need to punish the bullies. Not their victims under some bullshit claim THEY are the problem. "Boys will be boys" was probably coined by the ultimate toddler... MAYBE THEY NEED TO BE SPANKED. Then they'd get in line and treat others decently...

You bet I'm pissed.


Edited: minor clarity

[greenbird]

71. Well I was not only hit but beaten

and my IQ is supposedly 146, although I find myself doubting that on a daily basis.

[scrinmaster]

77. Maybe the brighter children behaved better, and didn't need to be disciplined as often.

Correlation =/= causation.

[XemaSab]

91. Or else the kids who got spanked were from a different social class

than the kids who did not get spanked. :shrug:

[Xenotime]

84. It also helps the sick fucks vent frustration at the expense of the child

[Prophet 451]

92. Doesn't matter

Spanking is one of those subjects that everyone thinks they're an expert on and no amount of actual research will make any difference to people's opinions. Witness the number on this very thread rationalising that spanking is not hitting or that the report is wrong. It's one of those subjects where minds have already been made up and facts can go hang.

[bigwillq]

99. I think it should be left up to the parent

to choose how they discipline their children. If they choose to spank, fine. I was spanked. Not often, and not hard, but it was one of the ways my parents choose to discipline my sister and me.

Regardless of what this study found, I think it's unfair of us to judge, and even criticize, parents who choose to spank. And your subject line is misleading. I'm sure there are a lot of fundies who do choose to spank their children. But I am also pretty sure that there are a lot of Liberals and Democrats who choose to as well.