Wow! Maya Angelou on the CBS Evening News just now! "Vulgarity is vulgarity."

[scarletwoman]

I hope other DUers saw it, she was absolutely AWESOME!

When the anchor, Russ Mitchell, (himself obviously of black heritage) asked if there was a difference between a white man using such language and black entertainers, her reply was "vulgarity is vulgarity".

"It doesn't matter WHO says such things -- even if it were a robot saying such things, it would be hurtful."

She went on to say, (paraphrase) "Let's see any of these people apply the same kind of language to Laura Bush and see how acceptable it is." This was after she had already called out Snoop Dog, Nellie (?) and Dave Chappelle (sp).

She was so TOTALLY right on -- even poor little Russ Mitchell found himself unable to keep up his corporate media talking points in the face of her magnificant power and wisdom.

We are SO blessed to have such a wise and compassionate and absolutely dignified elder shining her light in the present darkness!

sw

[ismnotwasm]

1. She is so awesome

Her writing and poetry have opened my eyes again and again. I'm sorry I missed it and thank you for posting this

[scarletwoman]

7. I wish I were a better transcriptionist. I just can't type while I'm listening to something,

I want to put all my concentration on listening. I wait 'til whatever I'm watching is over, then scramble like mad to transcribe as much as I can remember. (I'm an old woman, so short term memory isn't my strong suit...)

One hope I have is that if I post what little I can manage, it might spur someone to look up the online video or the transcript (whenever it might go up).

Thanks for your reply!
sw

(edited to correct a redundancy)

[bliss_eternal]

20. You did fine...

...I've done that, too. Been excited while watching something--trying to type it. LOL! It makes for some funny transcripts at times. :)

[scarletwoman]

25. Thanks!

:)

[alfredo]

2. She is one of my heroes.

[mzmolly]

3. "vulgarity is vulgarity" what many of us have been saying.

We are in most excellent company Scarletwoman.

:hi:

[saltpoint]

5. That Maya Angelou -- you heard it here first -- that woman is GOIN' places.

Hiya, Molly.

And a very happy Sunday evening to ya.

:hi:

[mzmolly]

8. And a very happy Sunday evening to one of the few Men here

who echoed the sentiments of the great Maya Angelou! :)
:loveya: :hi:

[saltpoint]

11. Nah. I was just another dry pile of leaves. She was the blazing torch.

I love her poetry, and I love that Bill Clinton asked her to compose and read a poem for his Inaugural.

When I was very young Southern governors stood on the steps of universities, flanked by guards, to prohibit young black men and women from entering those doors into those classrooms.

A few decades later, Bill Clinton, a former Southern Governor, asked a black woman to compose and read a poem for his Inaugural for president.

There's plenty of work still to do, certainly. But that is a breath-taking landmark for me.

And Maya Angelou embodies it.

[rasputin1952]

29. Maya Angelou follows some great grondbreakers...

I can't recall the name, (damn old me...:) ), but when FDR was to have his first inaugural, a black opera singer o f great renown was asked to perform. When told she could not perform in front of the WH, (can't recall the reason), Eleanor Roosevelt advised her to sing in front of the Lincoln Memorial. There are some films of this, and she blew the crowd away.

May is a National Treasure and is a woman of fantastic dignity.

[saltpoint]

47. I'd love to have heard that woman singing in front of the Lincoln

Memorial.

And I feel offended in her behalf for the decision to keep her from singing at the White House.

Your description of Angelou is exactly right. A close friend and very intense Democrat from Virginia just phoned me after her appearance with Russell Mitchell this evening to celebrate her gentle forcefulness.

She obliterated every other story on that half-hour program, and became the center of the fire. Just terrific.

[femmedem]

112. video: 22 seconds of Marian Anderson singing in front of Lincoln Memorial.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2280411465018074532&q=%22marian+anderson%22&hl=en

[saltpoint]

116. O my. Thank you! What a great present.

And go, Ned Lamont.

He's a good man.

[femmedem]

121. You gave me a present as well.

I wouldn't have gone looking for the video had it not been for your posts. :)

[saltpoint]

129. We all got in a Marian Anderson/Maya Angelou vibe, really.

Happily swept away!

Music and words by two true masters.

[redwitch]

56. Marian Andersen

I do believe. Eleanor resigned her membership in the DAR over this.

edited to add that Marian Andersen ( sp?) was supposed to sing in a DAR building and the organization said no. Eleanor was pretty angry.

[FloridaJudy]

93. It was Marian Anderson

She was barred from singing at the DAR hall in Washington in 1939, because she was black. As a result, Eleanor Roosevelt resigned from the DAR. Harold Ickes - the Secretary of the Interior - arranged for an outdoor concert at the Lincoln memorial. I remember seeing a stunning black and white photo of the event as a child (though that event happened before I was born): a gorgeous African American woman singing her heart out in front of the statue of Lincoln.



The Roosevelts had class. In contrast, our present POTUS can't even be bothered to send a telegram recognizing Jackie Robinson's contributions to the celebration of his joining the Dodgers 60 years ago.

Oy vey.

[rasputin1952]

101. I read where a conductor told her, a voice like hers would come around

perhaps every 100 years. It must have been a stunning moment to hear her, and in front of the Lincoln Memorial no less...:D

[FloridaJudy]

103. You might still be able to hear her

A film of the event has been preserved in the National Film Registry at the Library of Congress. I have no idea how you could find a copy, but your local library might know. It wouldn't have the immediacy of witnessing the event in person, but it's nice to know her voice has been preserved for future generations to hear.

[Le Taz Hot]

104. Toscanini

;)

[suffragette]

106. Something odd at National Parks site about this

After seeing this, I went to google Marian Anderson to read more about it. I've heard of this before and seen the pic.

I saw a link for www.nps.gov/linc/symbol/anderson.htm and thought, great I'll go that one since it was held there. To my astonishment, I received a "Page Not Found" error. Clicked on the google cache and saw the old page.

Here's the text from the cache:

MARIAN ANDERSON

The 1939, Easter Sunday, Marian Anderson Concert was in many ways the tactical beginning of the modern civil rights movement. It was a peacefully staged protest concert, and the first major attempt to bring balance to the themes of Social Justice and National Unity. Unmistakably, the concert was also a celebration of American Democracy in the face of the rise of the European totalitarian dictatorships. Of all the monuments and memorials in the nation's capital, the Lincoln Memorial is the one memorial where history has repeatedly been made.

If the 1922 Memorial Day dedication ceremonies for the Lincoln Memorial had vividly demonstrated anything, it was the fact that the country still had a long way to go towards achieving true national unity. The last minute inclusion of Dr. Robert Moton had clearly demonstrated the reluctance of the Lincoln Memorial commission to see the new memorial as anything other than a memorial devoted to the theme of National Unity. The fact that, on the day of the dedication itself, Dr. Moton addressed a large portion of his audience sitting confined to a "Colored Only" seating area was proof positive to anyone with unprejudiced eyes that the nation was united only in name. For those who dared doubt the existence of such a divide, it would be undeniably confirmed three years later when the Ku Klux Klan marched up the National Mall. White supremacists parading through the streets of the nation's capital tended to belie any true sense of national unity. In the spring of 1939, however, an event would take place at the Lincoln Memorial that would forever transform the way the nation views the Lincoln Memorial and perhaps itself. Marian Anderson, a 37 year old, African-American opera singer of international renown, had been denied the use of Constitution Hall owned by the Daughters of the American Revolution (DAR) exclusively on the basis of the color of her skin. Arrangements were hastily worked out between the Secretary of the Department of the Interior, Harold Ickes, and Walter White, Chairman of the NAACP, for Ms. Anderson to perform an outdoor concert at the Lincoln Memorial. At 5:00 PM, on April 9, 1939, Easter Sunday, a reticent Marian Anderson stepped before a battery of radio and loudspeaker microphones and an integrated assemblage of more than 75,000 to open her concert with a heart-rending version of "America."

The message could not have been more clear and unmistakable, backed by the power and prestige of the federal government and provided with the ultimate symbolic backdrop; blatant forms of public discrimination would no longer be tolerated in a nation dedicated upon the proposition that all men are created equal. According to historian Scott A. Sandage, "In one bold stroke, the Easter concert swept away the shrine's official dedication to the 'savior of the union' and made it a stronghold of racial justice." In other words, the first big step had been taken in remedying the balance between the themes of National Unity and Social Justice. The Lincoln Memorial was no longer a place to visit just to think about the past; about the horrible cost of our Civil War or the memory of our nation's first assassinated president. The memorial had been transformed and given new meaning; it had become a special forum to address the problems and issues that divide us today. The Lincoln Memorial had begun the process of evolving into a unique place that focused equally on the past and present, if not the future.


Then I went directly to the http://www.nps.gov/linc and searched for Marian Anderson - not there.
I also tried the link at the bottom of the cached page - not there either - http://www.nps.gov/archive/linc/symbol/anderson.htm

I notice the cached page states "Last Updated: Wednesday, 22-Dec-2004 09:55:18"

I hope I am just missing how to access this. Otherwise, it sure looks like it was pulled and, if that is the case, I am NOT ok with that. I realize that there are other excellent sources, such as the ones posted in this thread, and am glad for that, but why would this longer be available on the NPS site?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

105. The great Marian Anderson. She was a contralto, which is like an alto or a mezzo-soprano

She wanted to sing at Constitution Hall, in D.C., owned by the D.A.R. (Daughters of the American Revolution -- bunch of old biddies). This was in 1939. FDR had been president for six years already.

They would not let the great Marian Anderson sing there because she was black.

Eleanor Roosevelt, the First Lady, RESIGNED from the D.A.R. for that reason, and Ms. Anderson sang in front of the Lincoln Memorial. My Mom told me about this because she was around in the 30s.

I'm damn proud of Eleanor Roosevelt for that and many other things. She also convinced FDR to integrate the armed forces.

Marian Anderson FINALLY got to sing at the Metropolitan Opera in 1955 when she was old as Azucena, a mezzo role.

[Laughing Mirror]

122. She'd been booked to perform at DAR Constitution Hall until they found out she was black

Then the DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution) cancelled her performance. Thereupon, Eleanor Roosevelt resigned from the DAR in protest and the Sec of the Interior offered Anderson the Easter Sunday gig at Lincoln Memorial and 75,000 (20 times more than could fit into Constitution Hall) came to hear her perform.

[rasputin1952]

124. I've seen the pic's where the Mall around the reflecting pool is filled

with humanity.

It truly must have been a stunning moment in our history...:D

[mzmolly]

80. Absolutely, much more to be done.

However, your post reminds us of what we can and have accomplished. :)

[saltpoint]

91. And it's on to Denver, and let's nominate our next president!

A huge blue carpet needs to ordered in advance!

[mzmolly]

100. LOL

Ahhh, a blue carpet? I hadn't considered that!

I love your next order of business, and I like that guy in your avatar quite a bit too! :D

[saltpoint]

107. I like your avatar guy also, mzmolly. And our other Democrats look

awfully great next to the red field.

It will be a rea lift when Iowa Democrats begin to gather next mid-January for the first votes of the 2008 season. If my avatar guy doesn't win, I hope yours does, and if neither do, I'm sill excited about our chances against the red-team people. Things just aren't working out very well in George Bush's America. The wheels are coming off. By this Friday we may have a new World Bank president and a new Attorney General -- both long overdue.

Iraq is taking human lives and money that could be better spent on other things.

It's hard out there for a Republican!

[malaise]

43. She's been places

Great woman.

[saltpoint]

46. Yes. She's been to ALL the places, at least that's my take.

She is an electric presence, too.

A friend of mine had the opportunity to meet and talk with her and came away persuaded that she was just overwhelmingly forceful without really any effort. Not just a famous person but a compelling human being.

[bliss_eternal]

48. Your friend is correct...

...she performed and spoke at my college--standing room only. She's an amazing presence.

I had similar feelings about Clinton's selection of her, but I don't share the history
you do (in terms of what you've seen, etc.). I enjoyed reading your comments! :hi:

[saltpoint]

54. bliss_eternal, hello to you and thank you for the kind words.

I envy you your chance to hear her in person. I hope one of these days soon I will have the chance, and I will certainly follow your example and go hear her.

On the CBS Evening News tonight, she was so clear, and spoke with such conviction, that I think the CBS anchor, Russell Mitchell, was enchanted. He seemed to lean back a bit and just let her wisdom wash over him like a welcome breeze.

It was so refreshing to see that.

[bliss_eternal]

58. I sat in the aisle to see her...

There were many more people crowded behind me, sitting, standing, crouched. They didn't care--all that mattered was being there. I'll never forget the line of people to have their copies of her books signed. It was out the door, around the student center, down the stairs, out the center doors and wrapped around the building's exterior. I haven't even seen concert ticket lines come close.
There were men and women in line of every race and ethnicity (kinda' helped going to one of the most diverse colleges in the country at the time).

My friend and mentor at the time, had an arm full of books. LOL! Maya grinned and said,"...I'm sorry sister, I'll only sign a few so I can try to sign something for everyone. But I do appreciate this!" LOL! My friend understood, of course. She cracked me up, total poetry groupie.

[saltpoint]

You bet. It's hard to fault anybody for buying books,

and if some or all of those titles were poetry, all the better!

[malaise]

59. I met her in Jamaica some years ago

Presence is the word.

[saltpoint]

60. Hi, malaise. And I have a strong hunch that Maya Angelou has

brought poetry back into the lives of many Americans.

We abandoned it early on in our history, and only a lone few kept reading it.

Angelou has made it important again, been one of the key contributors to making it vital again.

She's owed a debt of thanks for that, IMO.

[malaise]

61. Very good point Old Crusoe

I love poetry. Always did.

[saltpoint]

64. Bartender! A cold beer for malaise! And make it snappy!

:toast:

[malaise]

110. LOL

Here's my favourite poem
Claude McKay: If We Must Die (1919)

If we must die, let it not be like hogs
Hunted and penned in an inglorious spot,
While round us bark the mad and hungry dogs,
Making their mock at our accursed lot.
If we must die, O let us nobly die,
So that our precious blood may not be shed
In vain; then even the monsters we defy
Shall be constrained to honor us though dead!
O kinsmen we must meet the common foe!
Though far outnumbered let us show us brave,
And for their thousand blows deal one deathblow!
What though before us lies the open grave?
Like men we'll face the murderous, cowardly pack,
Pressed to the wall, dying, but fighting back!

[saltpoint]

111. And in 1919, no less. Many high school textbooks start with the

1950s or 1960s -- and admittedly things were picking up considerably then in the civil rights struggle -- but it really is a long-ago beginning.

NPR's Juan Williams isn't much of an interviewer, but his scholarship on Afro-American history in the U.S. is pretty great stuff. He is always quick to remind his audiences that while Dr. King is a giant, there was a genuine struggle going on long before Dr. King.

McKay's poem seems to bear that out.

[malaise]

113. McKay had the advantage of the Jamaican

experience - British colonialism and it's nemesis, Garveyism. He was a cop for a short while before he migrated to the US and of course he studied at the vibrant Tuskegee Institute. He was way ahead of his time. He wrote "If we Must Die" the same year he went to Europe for a visit. He was lucky not just because he was part of that great Harlem Renaissance, but also because men like Paul Robeson were breaking down barriers.

While everyone is focussing on Imus, few even know or care that Robeson led the way at Rutgers.
"In college between 1915 to 1919, Robeson experienced both fame and racism. In trying out for the varsity football team, where blacks were not wanted, he encountered physical brutality. In spite of this resistance, Robeson not only earned a place on the team but was named first on the roster for the All-American college team. He graduated with 15 letters in sports. Academically he was equally successful, elected a member of the prestigious Phi Beta Kappa Society and the Cap and Skull Honor Society of Rutgers. Graduating in 1919 with the highest grade point average in his class, Robeson gave the class oration at the 153d Rutgers Commencement.

With college life behind him, Robeson moved to the Harlem section of New York City to attend law school, first at New York University, later transferring to Columbia University. He sang in the chorus of the musical Shuffle Along (1921) by Eubie Blake and Noble Sissle, and made his acting debut in 1920 playing the lead role in Simon the Cyrenian by poet Ridgely Torrence. Robeson's performance was so well received that he was congratulated not only by the Harlem YMCA (Young Men's Christian Association) audience but also by members of the Provincetown Players who were in the audience".
-------------
Today as I watch youngsters who avoid every chance of an education, I wonder if our they even know or care about the struggles of these men.

The best poetry book that traces civil rights issues is The Poetry of the Negro 1746-1970 edited by Langston Hughes and Arna Bontemps.

[saltpoint]

114. I don't have that title in my library but should have. I do have Hughes, and

have personal notes from Dr. Margaret Rowe and others on Hughes. Rowe helped elevate my sense of the various genres of poetry and helped me make some connections that those high school textbooks just didn't make.

'Had the opportunity to meet Derek Walcott in the 90s. A group of us had dinner with him and we were startled by how humble and quiet he is. We appreciated what he had to say about the western canon but realized of course that as soon as he might have stepped off-campus into a grocery store, no one there would have any idea in hell who he was. Later on he would win the Nobel Prize for Literature, but people in that same grocery store STILL wouldn't know who he was.

I don't think it would hurt our high school English curriculum directors to make certain that no U.S. high schooler graduates without knowing who the Nobel writers are. I don't think that's too much to ask. Right now kids don't know what century Lincoln served in, nevermind who the Nobel writers are. You cite Robeson -- whose work I never heard of until college -- but should been introduced to long earlier.

James Baldwin and Oscar Wilde are two others pointedly absent in a lot of high school curricula -- as if 17-year olds are too fragile for ideas.

[malaise]

118. I wasn't a Walcott fan during my student

days, but the more I read Another Life the more I realize that he is merely expressing the confusion of people who are of mixed race. I like him more these days. I even gave my Texas niece a copy.

[saltpoint]

119. Your niece in Texas got a very good present.

Good for you.

And lucky for her to have a relative who values books and ideas.

[malaise]

120. She's top drawer

graduated from Rice with a 3.87. Her mum was a teacher before she changed professions and now works with a book publisher. Our grandparents insisted on books and made them fun.

[saltpoint]

130. Top drawer is right. It's right and then some.

I say hurray for the whole bunch of ya.

[scarletwoman]

16. Yes! It was like a weight was lifted off my heart to hear her say those words.

We live in such an incredibly degraded and depraved culture -- when I felt that sensation I realized that it's not just spiritually and psychologically hurtful, it actually hurts physically.

sw

[mzmolly]

83. You're right! I hadn't thought of it in that way.

There is a physical pain involved as well.

[PurpleChez]

41. Right on!

I have been quite depressed, reading and responding to some other imus-related threads, to read the attempts (mostly by white folks, I assume) to excuse, or even celebrate, the use of "the n-word" by Black folks. Yes, I understand that, at one time, folks used the word in a fully legitimate attempt to sap it of its power. And, as a writer, I understand that there are certainly situations where "shocking" words can make a point that more genteel words cannot. But my students (I teach at an urban middle school), who use the word "nigger" about once every ten seconds, aren't connected to any of that. They are just mimicking everything and anything they see and hear from the hip-hop world. And it's just one more ugly part of a shallow, materialistic pseudo-culture that has somehow managed to convince a lot of folks that it represents the greatest flowering of artistic achievement since the Renaissance. Sorry for the rant, and thanks for your post.

[mzmolly]

81. Thank you for the thoughtful response.

:hi:

[donco6]

62. Count me one of those.

I don't care who says it. It's hurtful and doesn't move us in any direction we should want to be going.

[Bjornsdotter]

4. Sounds like a great interview

...I'm sorry I missed it.

Thanks for posting, I love Maya Angelou and am glad to see that, as usual, she was spot on.

Cheers

[scarletwoman]

95. See post #80 below for the link to the online video. (nt)

[Bjornsdotter]

97. Thanks! n/t

[Cass]

6. She is awesome; I am so sorry I missed this.

Thanks for posting what this wonderful lady had to say.

[saltpoint]

9. She was unbelievable.

The title lettes at the screen's bottom said, 'Maya Angelou / Poet"

How often do you see that on U.S. television programs, let alone news programs?

She too a leafblower to the crusty nonsense of a lot of newscasts.

What a voice -- true and tremendous.

[Straight Shooter]

10. Imus may have committed a blessing in disguise if it gets our airwaves cleansed of hateful remarks.

I see no difference between the rhetoric of the KKK, and Glenn Beck accusing Representative Ellison of being with the terrorists ("prove you're not), or Limbaugh telling a caller to "take the bone out of your nose," or Coulter suggesting that John Lindh should be killed as a lesson to the liberals and Justice Stevens should be poisoned, and I think it was Zell Miller who said all the Democratic candidates should be lined up and shot.

I see no difference at all. Vicious hate speech, aimed at a select group of people. This is the Republican legacy.

[Cha]

40. I think he did..and Maya Angelou

has concisely gone straight to the heart.."Vulgarity is Vulgarity"!

We have a good start..the discussions are wide open.

[porphyrian]

12. Sorry, we don't all agree as to what constitutes "vulgarity."

I hate it when good people mis-characterize what is offensive as a constant, because that is entirely wrong. What is true is that certain things are consistently offensive to certain people. However, this does not give them the right to dictate the rights and actions of others who do not share their view as long as no laws are being broken. Ms. Angelou can chastise and voice her opinion all she wants, but she doesn't get to define vulgarity for everyone any more than I do.

[mondo joe]

13. Indeed. Gays have been absent from TV for a long time because according to some homosexuality

is vulgar.

[porphyrian]

15. Good example. With the exception of the gay version of black face (pink face?)...

...caricature, or the odd cable (Bravo has a few) reality show, homosexuals get very little air time as regular people.

[saltpoint]

57. But they live noble lives in the pages of big-picture authors.

James Baldwin, Gore Vidal, K.M. Soehnlein, just to name a few.

There are a lot of people who resist any change at all. No matter the topic. Serious independent film is certainly decades ahead of Hollywood, but even Hollywood is significantly improved in its perceptions of minorities -- whether racial or sexual -- than it was when I was a child.

Maya Angelou read for the inauguration of a U.S. president in 1993; that would most certainly not have happened just a few decades prior.

Bill Clinton appointed an extremely qualified gay man to an Ambassadorship; Jesse Helms raised holy hell over it, but Clinton persisted and made an interim appointment. It infuriated Helms but it was indisputedly the right thing to do.

We have to get behind the people who are pushing things forward. Maya Angelou certainly is among that group.

[porphyrian]

67. That's why I said I hate it when good people mis-characterize what is offensive as a constant. - n/t

[saltpoint]

68. Unless I missed her context, I think Angelou meant that it was

objectionable for words to be used as tools of denigration.

I don't think she meant that Jack Nickolson can't use raw language as a character in FIVE EASY PIECES.

A raging Nickolson character isn't likely to say "Heck" or "Shit" or "Fooey." If he did, the audience would skip his next feature at the megaplex, is my guess.

But imagining that the Rutgers women's team's parents are proud of their daughters, and their friends proud of their friends, and classmates proud of their classmates -- after all, these Rutgers women were runners up to the national championship -- Imus' remarks were hurtful. Politicians sometimes develop thicker skins when opponents or press hurl invective. But these college athletes were champions. Runners-up in the technical hierarchy, but champions in every other respect. Many people watch those games and celebrate accomplishment that is born from desire and effort and discipline and collegiality and teamwork. It's dazzling. We WANT it to happen.

I think that's where Imus went wrong. For my part, I'm not interested in Imus per se, only confused as to why he did not share my exalted view of a team of athletes who could whip my butt at basketball any night of the week.

[porphyrian]

71. Well, even that is her declaring how others should use words.

The language isn't hers alone, and she doesn't have the right to dictate how others use it, even if it hurts feelings. That isn't the same things as saying people should hurt others' feelings, or that there should be no consequence for corporate radio hosts doing so on the air.

Look, I like the lady. I'd make dinner for her. I just don't give her opinions and freedoms a higher value than my own, and I don't make the mistake of assuming we consider the same things to be offensive.

[saltpoint]

75. OK. I think we're on a lot of common ground. Poets use language

in its most distilled form. It could be that they -- understandably -- take a proprietary interest in its use. And that could account for the perception that she is playing moral arbiter.

A late colleague of mine used Paul Simon's "The Boxer" as a way of introducing this paradox. The young man in the song's narrative could use "a shot of redemption," but seeks it in non-traditional venues -- alleysways and in the places only "the ragged people" would know. There is a coarseness there used by the poet/lyricist to set a context for the potential it holds for redemption and resolution. "There were times when I was so lonely/I took some comfort there..."

Angelou's work tends more toward the elegiac and the inspirational. There's chartable uplift. But I'm guessing she would see the transcendence in Simon's young boxer.

[porphyrian]

84. I can accept that explanation.

But she doesn't get to put a fence around OUR words.

[scarletwoman]

76. It comes down to a very simple principle. When you denigrate another human it is an unkind act.

It's not about whether someone feels offended, it's about language that is mean and hateful because it disrespects and denigrates other humans.

[porphyrian]

79. Believe what you want, but your beliefs seem to oversimply the reality.

What constitutes "denigration" of another human is not necessarily the same for you as it is for me or for others, nor is what constitutes a kind or unkind act. It is a bad assumption to make. Language itself is not mean and hateful, how it's used and in what context can be. It's far more complicated than there being some universal truth that people either conform to or don't.

[scarletwoman]

92. Really? The difference between a kind act and an unkind act is relative?

And here I thought everyone could tell the difference between a pat on the back and a brickbat.

[porphyrian]

125. I didn't say that, you did.

What constitutes kindness is relative. What constitutes un-kindness is relative. What that means is that what is kind, or unkind, to one person may or may not be considered kind, or unkind, by another. If you don't believe that, I would say you are in denial.

[bliss_eternal]

18. Do you feel better now, having said that...?

Are people allowed to express that they like her and appreciate her opinion? Last I checked they were. No one here stated that she or anyone redefined any definitions of anything. Some her apparently appreciate that she expressed this opinion. Apparently you don't.

I don't understand why people like you have to take simple discussions of appreciation for a human being, and their opinion--and turn such conversations into nastiness and negativity.

Oh and maybe you aren't aware but Maya Angelou AND her good friend, the late great Coretta Scott King spoke out FOR gay rights. Maya still does in fact.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LaurenG]

27. Aw Ms. Angelou is an awesome human being

I don't think she was dictating a thing. She was asked her opinion and she gave it. Just like you did up thread here, and I don't think your dictating anything to me. I think this is just your opinion too.

[porphyrian]

30. You're right, but she did say "vulgarity is vulgarity," and that isn't exactly true...

...for the reasons I stated.

[bliss_eternal]

32. self delete...

:hi:

[nini]

31. wasn't her point that the same things said by different people...

can be equally offensive? It seems her point is Imus saying ho is no different than a rapper saying ho in a song.

What vulgar is or is not isn't the point. It's that it doesn't matter who says it - when something is offensive to someone it doesn't matter what the source is.

[porphyrian]

35. It may not be your or her point, but it was mine.

I was simply pointing out that what constitutes vulgarity is relative to the individual, and that assuming otherwise is a pitfall I hate see good people walk into.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nini]

39. That's not what your original statement said though

"Ms. Angelou can chastise and voice her opinion all she wants, but she doesn't get to define vulgarity for everyone any more than I do."


Again, her point is not she is defining what is vulgar - it's if someone is truly offended by what Imus said regarding ho.. any use of the word ho should be equally as objectionable. If the use of the word 'ho' offends someone it shouldn't matter where it comes from.

I also see your point however we're talking about two different things here.

[bliss_eternal]

42. Well said, nini...

...and thank you. :hi:

[porphyrian]

44. What? How is that quote inconsistent with what I just said?

"Ms. Angelou can chastise and voice her opinion all she wants, but she doesn't get to define vulgarity for everyone any more than I do."

That's absolutely correct. Vulgarity is not a universal constant, rather it's relative to the individual. Various cultures and societies may hold certain things to be the norm within their group, but those do not necessarily translate to any other group. And, in a supposedly-free society, I don't want anyone telling me what's vulgar or not - that's for me to decide for myself. And I'm sure you don't want me telling you what is vulgar or not, either - that's for you to decide for yourself.

[nini]

51. Do you NOT see my point? Or do you just like to insist you are right?

Let's say there is a person who has chastised Imus up one side and down the other because he insulted these women by calling them hos.

This same person thinks it's perfectly ok to hear bitches, hos etc.. when referring to women in certain songs etc. I'm talking about the mysoginist type stuff not street slang.

There is a double standard if you blast one person for doing something but not another - it doesn't matter what culture we're talking about either. If you excuse it from one source but not another then perhaps you're not all that offended in the first place which is your choice too. You just can't have it both ways.

I don't expect you to agree because you have taken this whole topic to a whole different direction which is really too bad since this is a good subject that should be explored.

[porphyrian]

65. I only insist I'm right when I am, and I am.

So, just because I'm not talking about things the way you'd like, I'm wrong? Whatever, get over yourself.

Maybe this will make sense to you. You can't tell me what's vulgar to me, and I can't tell you what's vulgar to you. If something offends you, you have a right to say so, just as I do. But, you can't tell me something is vulgar for everyone (which includes me), because that isn't true. I may be offended by things that don't offend you and you may be offended by things that don't offend me. That's how it is in a free society.

I'm not talking about bitches and hos and your poorly-defined double standard which I don't have.

[nini]

74. I'm not telling YOU what is vulgar.

We actually agree on the perception of what is vulgar can be different between individuals, but that's not the point I'm trying to make. I am not telling you are wrong about this. I am trying to say one person cannot be offended by the same words from one person but not another - it doesn't wash. I have nothing to get over myself over and really don't see what has pushed you to say that.

oh..never mind. I'll go beat my head against a wall - it's more fun and productive than going around and around with you.


:eyes:

[porphyrian]

77. I tried to make a single point here, and it became a sparring match.

Sorry if I popped you one you didn't earn.

My problem with the point you are trying to make is this: words are symbols we give meaning to, not the names of universal constants. Two different people can call me "friend" (or "asshole" or anything, really) and they can have vastly different meanings. The first guy could actually be a friend, and the second some asshole looking to start a fight. Context can vastly change the meaning of a word, as can a number of other factors. So, a person can be offended by words from one person and not by those same words from another.

[nini]

87. yes.. I see your point there too.

But I think you're being more specific when I and the rest of us are being more general. Of course what we hear from friends can have a different meaning if we heard it from the likes of Imus (not that I expect to be friends with anyone that would say what he did but I get your drift). I'm talking in general terms - an Imus vs a media type person, not a public figure vs a buddy.

The context in which those words are spoken carries some weight in the meaning and how it is perceived - true. However, I cannot say Imus pisses me off with what he said then say some rap artist (for example) would not if his words were also negative towards women. In this case it doesn't matter WHO is saying it - it's equally offensive. That's what I think Angelou meant - not that what she thinks is vulgar is the bottom line of what vulgarity is.

I think fart jokes are funny, my sister thinks I'm an ass for thinking so. So, that proves your point that we all have different ideas of what is funny, obnoxious, vulgar etc...

[Bluerthanblue]

82. self delete

[porphyrian]

85. Couple o' things...

First, I don't require anyone to agree with me at all. I am simply disagreeing with those who respond to my posts otherwise. Believe whatever you want, but don't complain if you show it to me and I say it's wrong.

Also, I think I've made it clear that I don't have a problem with Ms. Angelou or her saying whatever she wants. My problem is with her presuming to define vulgarity for everyone, which I don't tolerate from anyone. I think a bunch of people made the false assumption that I was attacking her rather than one of the things she said.

[Bluerthanblue]

96. sorry, didn't mean to

slam the door on you- I just had a 'rethink' on what I'd posted.

I agree in theory with your perspective- If I hear you right you are kind of talking about "newspeak"-
??

But I'm 99.97% sure the vulgarity Maya was speaking about involved the phrase "nappy headed 'ho"- which IS a pretty universally recognized pejorative term.

I guess to take it one step further, if you use a phrase that "in your opinion" is not 'vulgar' but it clearly is to those you are speaking with, then, in my own opinion, the phrase should be used very judiciously- That is just common decency- unless your intent IS to offend- which makes the phrase "vulgar"- :silly:

this is getting too confusing for me-
peace,
blu

[mzmolly]

86. I think you missed the point? I don't think there was an attempt to define vulgarity?

:shrug: Seems to me the point was the message has the same effect, regardless of the messenger?

[LanternWaste]

127. I agree. With all the tap-dancing in the thread...

I agree. With all the tap-dancing in the thread about "the relativism of definitions", it appears that her message has been examined, prodded, cajoled, tested, re-tested, ad nauseum to the point where her actual intent, her actual message is covered up.


Make a conscious decision to be kind to other people. Make a conscious decision to avoid being vulgar to other people. Not a very hard thing to do at all regardless of what any culture's sub-definition of it is.

[Bluzmann57]

14. Saw it. Agreed with it. She is correct.

I wish the world had more like her. When she made the statement about Laura Bush, she was absolutely correct. If Snoop Dog or any other rapper who demeans women and others called L. Bush a bitch, there certainly would not be enough rope to hang them. It should apply to all of us. We have to have a dialogue in this country without calling each other names or tearing each other apart.

[bliss_eternal]

17. She confronted Dave Chappelle on Iconoclasts (sp)....!

...on his use of the "n" word. Iconoclasts(sp) is the show on the Sundance channel that pairs two artists together to talk about their work as artists, views on life, etc.

At one point, Dave starts in on how he views using the "n" word. He said he believes he's taking the power from it by using it to refer to himself, with friends, on tv, in his act, in front of diverse audiences, etc.

Well, Maya sat there listening quietly. Then she began to speak. Forgive me, as I didn't memorize what she said so I'm kind of paraphrasing right now. She said if you have a bottle of poison, the bottle is marked as such. In her day, poison had skull and cross bones on it and it stated POISON quite clearly. She said if I removed the contents of the bottle, put them in a different bottle...it would still be poison.

;)

If you could have seen the look on Dave's face. It was priceless. I loved Maya that much more in that moment than I did before.

Dave protested a bit, but he did look "convicted" in that moment. His protests were met with Maya saying,"...now let me talk to you--this is in love, you are my grandson. You need to hear this." She never raised her voice, looked stern or stopped smiling.

The woman is a sainted angel. I adore her.

A few days ago, I saw her also commenting on the Imus brouhaha on MSNBC. Again, she stated vulgarity is vulgarity and the rappers are as guilty as Imus. She said she weeps and mourns at the loss of common human kindness and decency toward our fellow man in the public spectrum.

[Blue_In_AK]

55. I saw that...

I really enjoyed that one.

[SalmonChantedEvening]

19. I saw her say that and decided

I wouldn't see anything that meaningful for the rest of the night (at least) and promptly turned Mr. TV with a smile.

Another rare occurence :D

I adore you Maya Angelou

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

[Raine]

21. She's TERRIFIC the only thing

I'm confused about is the reference to Laura Bush cause I don't recall the Stepford Wife saying much of anything at all. I sure know that Bar Bush has said some HORRIBLE things like the Katrina people that went to Texas being lucky cause they had never had it so good before etc. :mad:


EDIT: Never mind I just remembered Laura's remarks about Condi not being married etc. x(

[bliss_eternal]

24. Like you...

...I'm not aware of any current comments by Laura. Perhaps Maya meant it hypothetically, as in even if it was coming from the mouth of the wife of the highest office--it would still constitute vulgarity, in her opinion. :shrug:

[scarletwoman]

33. Ms. Angelou was saying that if the kind of language that is routinely used about black women --

no matter WHO the source -- was being used about Laura Bush, there wouldn't be "enough rope" to hang them fast enough. (As in, how appalled people would be.)

She was saying that if you wouldn't use language like that about Laura Bush, why is it okay to use such language about black women?

sw

[bliss_eternal]

34. Thank you...

...for the clarification! :hi:

[Raine]

102. Oh THANKS

I get it now. :thumbsup:

[NV Whino]

22. Maya Angelou is an amazing woman

I have had the honor of being hugged by this gracious and powerful woman.

[NormanYorkstein]

26. I have the right to call Maya Angelou vulgar names

Since I'm not a complete asshole I wouldn't obviously.

[xchrom]

38. in this -- she is right.

as regards lenny bruce and the theory that using certain words over and over they will magically lose their power -- well it hasn't happened.

and a great testimony to hatred retained in our very contemporary era is what happened to the former yugoslavia -- post tito..

[bliss_eternal]

45. Lenny Bruce...

...wow, we forget what he did and said, don't we? Good point. Thanks! :)

[scarletwoman]

49. An important thing to remember is that Lenny Bruce was talking about "swear words" -- like "fuck".

Profanity is one thing: "shit, fuck, piss" -- hateful speech directed at a particular group of people ("ho", "n*gger") is absolutely something else.

Indulging in hateful speech will never lessen hatred, it will only fuel it.

Notice that Lenny Bruce was right -- these days hardly anyone blinks at the use of "shit, fuck, piss", compared to how taboo such speech was in the 50s.

sw

[xchrom]

50. i think lenny was big on ALL the taboo words -- he was right about one group

of words -- and not so much the other.

other wise i agree with you.

language is the vehical our mind travels in.

and it's funny that the word fuck doesn't do to our mind what the word nigger does.

[scarletwoman]

53. "...it's funny that the word fuck doesn't do to our mind what the word nigger does."

Of course it doesn't. We ALL "fuck" (even if just metaphorically), but not ALL of us are subject to being called "n*gger".

sw

[Laughing Mirror]

123. Even today though, if you say shit or fuck on network TV you get blipped

But not if you call people jigaboos, faggots or nappy headed hos. Apparently, hate speech is acceptable on our public airways but common words that describe bodily functions are called profanity and are not acceptable.

[Madspirit]

52. K&R...n/t

[Horse with no Name]

63. I posted this a few days ago

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=627142&mesg_id=628002

>>>snip
"When we talk about racism, we have to see that we are not just talking about acts against blacks, we are talking about vulgarities against any human being because of her -- his -- race. This is vulgar. That is what it is, whether it is anti-Asian, whether it is the use of racial prejudices about Jews, about Japanese, about Native Americans, about blacks, about Irish, it is stupid, because what it is really is it is poison. It poisons the spirit, the human spirit. I know there are blacks who say, "I can use the N-word because I mean it endearingly." I don't believe that. I believe it is vulgar and dangerous, given from any mouth to any ear. I know that if poison is in a vial which says P-O-I-S-O-N and has a skull and the cross bones, that it is poison. But if you pour the same thing into Bavarian crystal it is still poison. So I think racism is vulgar any way you cut it".

[scarletwoman]

70. I was specifically posting about her appearance tonight (Sunday, 4/15) on the CBS Evening News.

I'm sure she was reiterating things she's already said elsewhere, I just wanted to comment on how cool it was to see her saying these things on Network TV on a Sunday evening.

sw

[Horse with no Name]

72. I was just pointing out that this is the same message she has carried

for a long time.
Sorry if you took it as anything else.

[SnoopDog]

66. Proud to be the 5th rec... She was awsome...

[Colobo]

69. Maya Angelou is, once again, right on the money

Amazing woman indeed.

[goclark]

73. She is a shining star! nt k and r

[bliss_eternal]

99. Hey you...!

:hi:

[lumberjack_jeff]

78. here's the link to the video

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=2685404n

[mzmolly]

88. Thank ya!

:hi:

[scarletwoman]

94. Thank you! Really appreciate you posting this! (nt)

[saltpoint]

108. lumberjack_jeff, thanks for posting this link for us.

A nice present.

It's a keeper!

[Catherine Vincent]

89. I see the video link above.

:hi:

[aikoaiko]

90. Easy for her to say -- the sublime is effortless for her.

The rest of us are almost doomed to be vulgar by comparison.

[saltpoint]

109. I like what you have to say about Maya Angelou, and I love how you

said it.

Also I like the Dead tune that I'm hunching inspired your screen name.

[Bjornsdotter]

98. Great Interview!

Bravo, Ms Angelou!

That lady speaks for me.

Cheers

[The Count]

115. This thread and its popularity gave me a lot to think. So I started a thread

which is as good as my answer to this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=664727&mesg_id=664727

[alcibiades_mystery]

117. DUers (almost) discover that not all black folks think alike

Wow! You mean there's actual disagreement in the black community about the use of these terms? You mean black folks have varying political investments in language? You mean we can find some black folks who support one position, and some black folks who support another, and yet more black folks who support a third, a fourth, a fifth? I know! I'll elevate the black folks who support MY position to universal spokespeople for the black community! Holy crap! This is a rhetorical goldmine!

:rofl:

[The Count]

126. Then Coulter's attack on Edwards was also just vulgarity - she said it to other white people

so it makes it all right.
So glad it was all about etiquette, now we can feel good about hating the blacks who think it was racism.
Why was Angelou even asked such a loaded question - and do you really believe that the answer was complete? Why this sudden obsession with rappers lately anyway?
Is someone trying to send a message to an anti-GOP electorate?

[FloridaJudy]

132. No, Coulter's words were also a put-down of gays

I don't know Coulter's sexual orientation (and frankly don't care - the thought of anyone in bed with that woman gives me the creeps), but her words were intended as an insult.

I occasionally hear homosexuals call each other "f*gg*t" and "qu**r" with affection. I expect they're trying to re-claim the words, much as some blacks have done with the n-word. But I would never dream of using those words myself. They carry too many hurtful connotations.

And even if I were homosexual, I would never use one of those words in an address to the public. Too many people have been hurt by them.

PC: it's what my late mother called "Good Manners"

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

128. That's a shame.

I would have hoped that someone whose works are frequently banned from various schools and libraries because of "vulgarity" wouldn't be so quick to come up with such a poorly thought out argument.

[earth mom]

131. Bravo for Maya Angelou!

Awesome poet that she is, she cleanly cut through the b.s. by pointing out the simple truth! :applause: