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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:46 PM
Original message
AIPAC is not Israel.
AIPAC is not the people of Israel.

AIPAC is not the Israeli government.

AIPAC is not a religion.

Anybody who tries to liken or equate AIPAC to Israel or Judaism should ask themselves why.


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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. AIPAC has congress in its back pocket
and every politician must toe their line. Even Obama had to pay his respects. They are for all intents and purposes the arbiters of our policy towards Israel.

AIPAC is kind of like the Right Wing Cubans who stifle any change in our Cuba policy.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. That doesn't change the OP though.
And those Cubans don't represent Cuba either.
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. And Cuba isn't threatening anyone
militarily.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Which also doesn't change the OP.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. It depresses me not only that you need to say that, but that it'll probably get challenged. (nt)
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. ..
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. DU is a big place, but there isn't any room for J Street on the map here.
I'd encourage anyone reading this to check out JStreet.org. On a web forum that has allowed and abetted absolutely vile charges of anti-semitism against people like Jimmy Carter, and also a number of Jews, I don't feel administrators of DU are ready to embrace a stance which both meets the wording of the Democratic platform and promotes an alternative- rejecting this conservative relic for what it is.

It's too bad, but it's not my choice. If you're a Jew or not, do check out J-Street. I really believe Jews and non-Jews can, together, find a better, safer, future there.

PB
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. I agree with 1 and 3.
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 04:53 PM by Forkboy
2 is half true.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Yes, agents of the Israeli government are AIPAC members, but
agents of the KKK are members of the U.S. government.

The Israeli, government, contrary to public opinion, is not of one mind, philosophy, or agenda.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Oh, I understand that, and that's why I said half right.
I know there are many different views in the Israeli government, in many ways more than here it seems. Sorry, I didn't mean to paint it as monolithic.
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. But the KKK members in Congress aren't pretending Africa wants to nuke the Confederacy.
As opposed to the Likud/AIPAC fantasies about Iran, for example.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. You can come up with your own analogies: The Family, the Christian Coalition,...
OPEC, Heritage Foundation, Cub Scouts. No wait, not Cub Scouts.
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. AIPAC represents the American military industrial complex as much more than any of these!

as does the ATC (American Turkish Council), which also really doesn't represent most Turkish interests, mainly the nationalist components and the military there.

What do the ATC and AIPAC have in common?

1) NOT religion of course, being that one represents a largely Muslim country and the other a largely Jewish country.
2) They are both heavy recipients of American military aid (Chaching! Two of the biggest recipients of such, making for vested interests existing in our own military industrial complex, those that funnel money to them in our government, and those that are in charge of weapons dealing for the Turkish and American governments.
3) Americans like General Brent Scowcroft in leadership positions in BOTH the ATC and AIPAC!

When you have AIPAC trying to push Bush into attacking Iran, and polls in Israel showing that most Israelis did NOT want this to happen, you can see where the war priorities of these organizations are.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
8. Correct. And it is also a dire state of affairs when such a conservative organization has taken...
...over as the mouthpiece not just of Israelies but of Jewry, period. Right now, AFAIK, there are about as many Diasporic Jews outside of Israel as inside of it. While there is no law forcing them to take part in the process, every Jewish-American should soberly understand what is being said and done not only in their name but in the name of their religion and that those things which are said and done on their behalf are, for the most part, and without a well-funded and organized competing voice, taken at face value by the rest of the world.

PB
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Realize there are now competing organizations to AIPAC
oh and the only time AIPAC called for a fund raiser, I gave the lady on the other side a virtual reaming for their RW politics that are quite honestly RACISTS.

Funny, have not gotten a call ever again from them.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I mentioned JStreet.org upthread. If you have others, toss 'em in!
I am fond of Jewish/Israeli organizations that actually uphold those ideals!

PB
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. JStreet.org, that is the one I was thinking about
And I need to send them a buck or two one of these days.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. You Make It Sound Like Us Jews Are Children...
I not only read Paul Finley's book when it came out but interviewed him on the radio several times in the 80's. I and many other Jewish Americans are very aware of AIPAC and their attempts at influencing US foreign policy...that's what a lobby does. There are other nations that have similar operations and so be it. Want to fix the problem, then find a way to eliminate all lobbying, and I'll be with you on that.

That said, I have posted here many many times that I detest the Likud party as I do the rushpublican party in this country. I have debated many fellow Jews who believe in Israel is Likud, but that's a minority. To broadbrush all Jews as being AIPAC or that it is some sinister organization is disengenuous.

I do see what Netanyahu or Likud speaking for me or my family. AIPAC represents its own interests that may or may not coincide with the policies of the Israeli government, not the other way around. But go ahead and broadbrush...
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. What similar operations?
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Name An Ethnic Group...
I can start with Irish-American groups in the 70's that supported the IRA...funneling money during "the troubles" not only for weapons but also to buy off politicians in the US. I worked with a gentleman who was deeply involved in what he called "The Cause" and regularly had politicians on his radio show pandering to him and his group. Now that may not be on the scale of AIPAC but the means were the same. I also saw similar groups set up for the Serbians in the 80s and 90s...one even ran a radio show with the title (translated of course) the "Serbian Defense Fund" Hour. I'm certain a Congressman Blago was on their list. I see the difference with AIPAC as Israel was been in an almost constant state of war since 1948...the others found ways to resolve or at least pacify the hatred, that's what's needed in the I/P situation as well.
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Problem is, your congressmen are for sale, surely.
One thing is to seek to influence through the power of facts and ideas; bribery is something else.

Why aren't they all in jail?
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. We've Seen How Effective Power and Facts Are...
And, as always, those power and facts depends on whose using them for what aim. As long as we have a system where House seats cost a minimum of $2 million to run for and Senate seats go for a minimum of $10, the need to raise cash will trump "power and facts". Many aren't in jail because they haven't done anything illegal. I'm strongly in favor of reigning in the fulltime political money culture but the Supreme Court appears to be thinking in a different direction.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
14. AIPAC is dominated by sympathizers to the Likud Party, a pro-colonialism party.
Not all Jews hold the same views. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a Labor Party in Israel either. They're far more willing to discuss the future fate of the illegal settlements in the West Bank. Likud, hardly.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Don't forget Kadima
or the alphabet soup of small parties

:-)

Israeli politics, oy... give me two aspirin and all that.

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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Kadima's more or less the Israeli equivalent of the DLC
Calls themselves "centrist" but acts a lot like the Likud in reality.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. That's actually not too far off. One of those "Just to the left of the far right" things. n/t
PB
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
18. No, AIPAC is not the Israeli government. It just spies for them.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Yes, they do.
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
30. AIPAC isn't the problem - it's just the dealer. Addiction is the problem
Edited on Wed Sep-23-09 12:53 PM by Chulanowa
In this case, it's the American addiction to Armageddon.

As I'm sure we're all aware, most of America's politicians have had lots of influence from religion, whether personal or political. And in this country, "religion" usually means American Protestantism, which leans real heavy towards the Book of Revelation. Why? Becuase America has always seen itself as the "end of history" and paired with religion, that means Jesus is coming soon.

Now, crack open your bibles. Jesus is due back, and he's supposed to return in Israel. So of course there has to be an Israel for him to come back to - thus the US' complete fawning sycophancy towards both the creation and support of Israel. But that's not everything. You see, a certain number of Jews have to be "Perfected" - converted to Christianity. Jesus has a quota for his return. What about those Jews that don't convert?

Jesus kills them, of course. What, did you think he'd forgive 'em? Pffft. That's the Jesus of Matthew, man, not the brawny he-man Chuck Norris realJesus of revelation!

Now, it's not enough to build a nation and roll out a red carpet made from dead jewish people for jesus' return. We have to get his attention, too. And nothing attracts a messiah like all-out brutal war. Luckily the creation of Israel seems to have pissed off the neighbors, and as you may have noticed, there's been fighting over there. This is where AIPAC comes in. Its goal is basically to keep the conflict going. Not for whackadoodle Christian reasons, but simply because AIPAC is a combination of the Klan and the NRA, only Jewish instead of White trash. Hate the Arab, love the bomb you drop on him.

Thing is, given the country's absolute obsession with the end times, and the pervasive theory that the Arab-Israeli conflict is just what's needed to send out a batsignal for Jesus, this gives AIPAC pretty much free reign in the halls of government. It's like a pusher telling its favorite junkie to fuck a dog for the next fix.
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daedalus_dude Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
31. "You shall know them by their fruits"
as long as the goals of the israeli government and aipac largely overlap and they are working together to achieve these goals, equating them has legitimacy.

as long as the israeli government claims to govern a jewish state, then making the statement that israel is jewish has legitimacy.

the reverse is, of course, not necessarly a consequence of that. of course judaism is not israel. it is a much larger entity than israel.

governments are normally not the same thing as the people they govern. that is a trivial statement.
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