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Dare we talk about Waco and Ruby Ridge?

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:26 PM
Original message
Dare we talk about Waco and Ruby Ridge?
If so come inside. Have a cup of coffee, or tea, or water. Sit down.

I think the FBI was fully within their rights in both cases

I do not think Waco was "botched" - rather, the good guys won - they protected our country from a violent psychopath, armed to the teeth and holed up with dozens of his sheep.

I think Randy Weaver killed his kids. By keeping his kids in the house while firing at FBI agents, he put them and his wife at risk. The FBI is blameless.

Those folks were dangerous criminals.

To have done anything other than "terminate with extreme prejudice" would have put this country at risk.

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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
though it's an uphill battle right now...

i agree with you.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Yeah - too many DUers bouoght into the RW propaganda back then
"Is your Church ATF compliant?" the bumper stickers read

Well Waco was not a Church, it was an ARMORY. With bombs, guns, all kinds of things that kill people.

And to boot, Koresh lit the fire that killed everyone himself.

and this is the FBI's fault?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
27. DU was around during Waco?
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. as long as the conversation doesn't take a wrong turn
and land your thread in the dungeon :rofl:
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Do we have a Waco Dungeon?
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. Don't you know - those tactics are only to be used against peace protesters, anti-poverty
activists, environmental defenders, and health care proponents.

The reich-wing republican terrorists are to be coddled (and supplied weapons by the military).
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. HAHAHAHA TRUE!
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. I disagree. I think the FBI totally botched Waco.
They had multiple opportunities to arrest Koresh while he was outside the compound.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. The FBI said they never had a clear shot
Yeah, they could have walked to the front door and said "Mister Kor- I mean, Mister Jesus Christ (he thought he was) - can we arrest you this time? Please?"

The Branch Davidian Armory was not a "church" it was an armory.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. In the days prior to the raid, the BATF had the opportunity to
arrest him while he was off the compound.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Maybe, but there's still the issue of the guns and rape.
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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
66. It was a compound..
With people that ran a legitimate legal gun business.

The county sheriff himself said he was on goo terms with Koresh, and was certain he would have shown up at the courthouse, with lawyer, if asked to.

They certainly should at least attempted to knock on the door and serve a search warrant. Before going all para military with military trained black garbed commandos.

Crazy folks with guns, fearing the government is out to get them, so send government ninjas into their windows at night... WTF did they think was going to happen?

Show up in daylight with a Sheriff and 2-3 guys in suits, and knock like civilized people who presume innocent until proven guilty, and serving a warrant would have made far more sense IMO.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
8. Ah, but the right wingers believe differently.

The arguement you usually hear from them is: "So what if the Branch Davidians murdered four ATF officers; and, then, the government gave them almost two months to surrender and stop raping young women before storming the compound?"

Weaver is a hero to those who would strap guns on their legs to intimidate.

I would rather so many had not been killed, but we can't allow this kind of lawlessness. These folks are domestic terrorists -- just like paramilitary/Republican/supremacist Timmy McVeigh.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. DOMESTIC TERRORISTS!!!
By Jove, I think you've got it! :thumbsup:
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. so..
You basically believe that the government should go and round up everybody who has Weaver's views? Should FBI snipers shoot all of their wives in the head while they are holding babies?
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SIMPLYB1980 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Yes that is exactly what they should do.
:sarcasm:
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
44. oh dang it you told our DU plot. thanks.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
33. No,

I believe the government should have gone home and let the Branch Dravidian's murder 4 ATF agents, rape young women, hoard illegal weapons and let Weaver preach his crap while supplying illegal weapons to supremacist groups and live the life of the "Turner Diaries." Do I need to add the dripping sarcasm?

They were given multiple opportunities to come out peacefully. If I'm not mistaken, law enforcement gave the BDs 51 days after they murdered the ATF agents. Weaver had his chance as well. Wish they had not been killed, but this is a "global war on terrorism."
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
9. The problem with WACO was that commando raid
by BATF cowboys. It was poorly thought out, unnecessary and got too many people hurt and killed on both sides.

In addition, once they did that, the outcome was inevitable. This was a sect of crazed Aramageddonists. They weren't afraid to die violently and even welcomed it as a first step to knocking Jesus off his heavenly throne and forcing him to come back like he promised to.

Koresh should have been nabbed more quietly when he was out and about, along with his top lieutenants. With the leadership gone, the rest of them might have been a little more amenable to allowing the search warrant executed.

Then again, maybe not. What I do know is that once the BATF's botched raid happened, there was nothing the FBI could have done to change the outcome.
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SIMPLYB1980 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
10. Tried to a few weeks ago.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Didn't go to well, hope you post does better.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
11. what?
1. Waco: Koresh went into town every day. Why not arrest him there? The fact is, and the evidence showed, that the ATF wanted to conduct a big raid for the news cameras in order to get larger budgets.

2. Weaver: The whole reason why the FBI was there is because they entrapped him. Since when do Democrats support that? The sniper, Lon Horiuchi, shot Mrs. Weaver in the head while she was holding her baby.



This thread is proof that many "liberals" are not "liberal" at all when it comes to people with different belief systems.
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rd_kent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. You are spot on!
Those are the two biggest facts that seem to get overlooked. Was the FBI/ATF justified? Maybe. Could they have used different tactics? Definitely.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Allow me to rebut:
1 - You are watching too much Fox News. Koresh went into town twice, but the FBI could never pinpoint his location. Besides, who was more dangerous? A crazy lunatic walking around Waco or a bunch of brainwashed idiots sitting around a bunch of guns? If it were a war, they would have bombed the compound straight off. In fact, it was a war - Koresh declared war on the USA.

2 - How did they 'entrap' him? And do you want to know how to get a cop really mad? Kill a few - trust me, they don't like that (nor should they.) My question is why did Weaver have his family there anyway? If he gave a shit, he would have arranged for them to leave before he went all John Wayne on them.

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kctim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
36. IF you are going to rebut, you should know what you are talking about
Things like offering him money to break a silly law so they could blackmail him into working for them.
How many cops did Weaver kill and make others mad before they shot and killed his son?
Why you think it is wrong for Weaver to have lived where he wanted to?
Why Weaver won his lawsuit?

Others are right, you would be screaming if these would have been leftists.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #36
50. blah blah blah...
"Things like offering him money to break a silly law so they could blackmail him into working for them."

Whether or not authorities acted in appropriately when Randy Weaver was buying/selling illegal sawed off shotguns is irrelevant to firing on the cops when they tried to serve a warrant.

"How many cops did Weaver kill and make others mad before they shot and killed his son?"

One.

"Why you think it is wrong for Weaver to have lived where he wanted to?"

You mean with the Aryan Nations, and keeping his female family members in a shack, not unlike that kidnapper in California? Yes.

"Others are right, you would be screaming if these would have been leftists."

Let me know when leftists start becoming white separatists, shooting cops, and taking hostages.



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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
43. This is how
The whole ruby ridge deal stemmed from an undercover agent repeatedly trying to get Weaver to saw off a shotgun barrel for him, he was after him for 2-3 years.. They arrested him a year later.

From Wiki...

"This was compounded by Weaver's failure to appear in court to answer these charges. Weaver's original court date was 19 Feb 1991; it was changed to 20 Feb but Pretrial Services sent Weaver a notice citing the date as 20 Mar. Weaver missed the 20 Feb hearing. A bench warrant was issued for Weaver's arrest, and the U.S. Marshals Service was directed to serve it.

By 27 Feb it was widely known Weaver had been given the wrong date. The U.S. Marshals Service wanted to allow Weaver the opportunity to show in court on 20 Mar, but the U.S. Attorneys Office sought a grand jury indictment on 14 Mar for Weaver's failure to appear 20 Feb. This convinced Randy and Vicki Weaver that he had no chance of a fair hearing"

Again an issue that could have been solved by law enforcement peacefully. Even after the court date screwup. Instead they go military on the man.


Just like in Waco, where Koresh ran a perfectly legal gun shop, where the local sheriff could have taken Koresh in, and searched his place, Koresh even invited the ATF to come see his weapons..

They refused and raided them through windows in the night instead..

It was stupid policies both instances by law enforcement going to para military force when none was needed, and without attempting standard policies first.

Needless deaths could easily have been prevented on both sides with a little common sense.
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Dogtown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #43
110. WIKI is not a dependable source for
political research. It is open to public edit and reports are doctored by activists and political operatives.

I believe you are biased on this issue. I also believe it is very easy to find fault after an op, and it's impossible to predict with absolute clarity what will happen next in a tactical situation.
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SIMPLYB1980 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. You sound like one of the folks that was happy McVeigh
Boomed the Alfred P. Murrah building. You know that those are some of the excuses that he used to justify those actions.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
126. +1
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
16. Or Arrogance of Federal Agents
In both cases one can argue that Local Law Enforcement was aware of more information. And could offer suggestions on alternatives to the confrontational approach chosen.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. And local law information kept that info from the FBI on purpose
Ask any local cop how they feel about "J Edgar's" as they call them
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. Source?
I think the arrogance has alot to do with how locals treat them in the first place. But at any rate I have never heard that in this case the ATF asked for b ut didn't receive the information.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #31
42. Let me see if I can find that source
I remember it in an Atlantic or New Yorker article about a month after it happened
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
18. Naw, don't expect to have an honest talk.
Too many nuts support these child molesters and cop killers on the flimsiest of grounds.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Dude! We agree on something!
Partay time!!!!
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
56. To many frothy-mouth whackjobs use labels like child molesters....
when there was zero evidence this was occurring, and it became clear it was a transparent pretext for the gov't.
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
22. The way I look at it
Kids end up dead-everyone is to blame. The parents, yes and certainly the government and FBI. It was burn 'em alive to save them? Bullshit. There were better options.


And your post almost reads like sarcasm. Seriously-dangerous criminals-well yeah Koresh was. And I certainly don't agree with Weaver and his ilk at all. But I am not a fan of capital punishment. So death by government officials is not something I applaud.
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guardian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
26. why are you picking at this old scab?
with everything else CURRENTLY going on and you bring this up? Just wake up from a coma?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Because he's in full on bloodthirsty mode lately, and he has a hate on.
Check any of his OPs and posts over the last couple of days. He wants blood.
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
28. Children lost their lives in Waco
Yes, I know their parents were crazed zealots armed with guns...but the children were innocent.

"Burning down the village to save it" and "collateral damage" smack too much of everything that makes the GOP the repugnant war machine that it is.

That doesn't mean I'm ready to hand the howling mob Janet Reno's head on a pike but the sad-ending could have been avoided. It's not like they were going anywhere and I would hate to think a liberal president could be goaded into taking action by warmongers in the press.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. The OP doesn't give a fuck.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Yes, and it's the Branch Davidians that are to blame for their deaths.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. it's not that easy. both the feds and the branch davididans are responsible.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #37
55. Nonsense.
The feds served a warrant exactly like they were supposed to do.

The Branch Davidians shot the feds. Took hostages. And then when the Feds tried to end the siege, the Branch Davidians shot the kids and set the place on fire.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #55
63. not nonsense. the feds could have easily arrested koresh
in the days preceding the raid when he was out of the compound.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. That's an irrelevant red herring
They would still need to search the compound and seize the weapons.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #68
75. Which is easier
if no one is manning the weapons. there is the political and tactical aspects and both are a massive fuckup.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #75
87. Are you suggesting....
they could have just arrested all of the Branch Davidians at once as they took an unarmed field trip into town for frosty vanilla milkshakes?
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #87
99. Yeah. I am. They had social service
agents there before. These guys were not barricaded. They should have had the sheriff and a deputy arrest him in town and serve warrants if possible. The tactics used were obviously a giant failure with loss of life by atf and the bd.

Only if a reasonable effort was met with violence should the hammer be swung. And then they have a different issue to do correctly.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #99
107. What do you suppose the cult would have done with its leader arrested?
Come out and surrendered?
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #107
111. possible, who knows. something other than die
would have been a better outcome and not taken atf guys with them in a pointless shootout. They made massive tactical errors with their breach. massive.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #111
117. Monday morning quarterbacking.
There's no evidence that anything the feds could have done differently would have led to a better outcome.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #117
123. The feds have suggested different outcomes.
they do not look at waco as a success. That does not make the BDs correct but means other outcomes were possible. The raid was botched.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #63
70. Yes - no one mentions the children were SHOT by the Branch Davidians
But it was sadly all too true...

And some here are saying we should be nice and take pity on poor little Koresh - he was just a nice ol preacher - never did no one no harm..... :eyes:
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #70
94. Go ahead and cite that evidence.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #94
103. here
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/pdf/finalreport.pdf

Who could have predicted that an apocalyptic murder/suicide cult would commit murder/suicide?
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #103
112. Sorry, the only thing that addresses that issue is point 120
120. The autopsy reports indicate that on April 19, at least 20 Davidians were shot
including at least five children under 14. Of the 20, 12 were shot in the head, two others were shot
in the head and chest, three more were shot in the chest only, two were shot in the back and one,
Schneider, was shot in the mouth. In several additional instances, the pathologists could not In several additional instances, the pathologists could not confirm, but would not rule out death by gunfire, which indicates that more Davidians may have
been shot.

That is not evidence of what you are claiming.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #112
119. Shooting children in the head does seem to me evidence of doing harm.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. It's not clear where those shots came from. I leave you to your cutsie-poo word games
I can see you're not interested in honest debate or evaluation of the actual evidence/findings.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #120
131. So what you're saying is...
FBI commandoes rushed into a burning building, executed children with the Branch Davidian's guns, then rushed back out before being consumed by smoke and flames.

OK, makes perfect sense.

:crazy:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
57. We had to kill them to save them.
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. The Branch Davidians killed those children, not the FBI
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #35
52. I can't buy into that 100%
Whose fault is it when children are killed in a Predator drone strike?

Last I heard the were locked in compounds with religious fanatics that wanted to harm the US. Yet, I can't help but think the heavy-handedness of the US bears SOME responsibility.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #52
59. Apples and , well something not an apple..
a military strike with an explosive and a standoff ending when the occupants burned themselves up are not on the same page. That said, sure they could have done things differently. I am sure they would given the chance.
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #59
77. I'm just saying
I don't think there was a need to force an ending. Where were they going to go?
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #77
115. I agree. Once the bad tactics were in motion
the sit and wait option would have been better. No sympathy for what they did or believed, just a better tactic.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #35
60. The Branch Davidians fired flammable materials into their own buildings?
Who knew?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #60
83. Fuel is typically flammable, Beer on a stick
Although they just sort of poured it around rather than firing it in.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #83
91. Yeah, they did sort of just pour it in, w/those armored vehicles and....
later, when it came out that it was flammable material, denied it until it was later shown to be so in court.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #91
97. You're referring to the flash bang grenades.
Of course, the actual fires were started by the Branch Davidians on the other side of the compound.

And it was Branch Davidian weapons which fired the bullets into the back of the heads of the kids.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #97
101. No, there is zero evidence that the fires were started by the Davidians
and this was made quite clear in the testimony and in the film.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #101
109. You shouldn't believe everything you read on white supremacist hate sites.
The fires were clearly started on the other side of the compound. It was all caught on film.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #109
118. You should try using logic and the actual record.
RW websites? Sorry, I'll leave those to you.

What was caught on film did not clearly show what set the fires off, and if you'd bother to find out what you're talking about before attempting to actually talk about it, you wouldn't have to keep bringing up irrelevancies.
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #60
95. I heard the police used tear gas
I doubt tear gas is flammable.
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angrycarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
34. There are hundreds of potential Wacos
and thousands of potential Ruby Ridges out there right now, It is only a matter of time. I hope they use less hard-assed tactics with dealing with them in the future. Everyone here knows that the militias are waiting with baited breath for President Obama to show his "true colors". At this point the benefit of taking out a small group does not warrant the violent shitstorm of domestic terrorism that will follow. I am sad to say that but right now the far right is better left alone, all they need is a spark.
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Israfel4 Donating Member (86 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
38. Taverner, can you tell me what SPECIFIC law(s) weaver and koresh broke???
Particularly the Firearms laws they broke???
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. And even then...
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 02:59 PM by LAGC
Was it a crime worthy of a Death Sentence for all those involved?

With a little better-planned surveillance both of them could have been peacefully arrested without any incident, let alone bloodshed.

We should never applaud government over-reaching its authority and abusing its power, no matter how despicable the alleged crime.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #39
49. Like I said earlier, they wouldn't have come out on their own
And face the facts, besides child raping they were also planning on the end of the world. Aresenal + End of the World Myth =/= safety
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #49
61. Go ahead and cite the evidence for 'child rape'.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #61
67. Um, 14 year old girls fathering Koresh's children?
Sounds like rape to me, unless you're a Republican, in which case that's family values
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #67
76. That's rather disengenuous, given that the position of the Feds....
was that the group, en masse, was somehow involved in this, and that wasn't the reason they cited for their actions.

Oh, that, and the DOJ later admitted that there was zero evidence that this occurred.

http://www.usdoj.gov/05publications/waco/wacoseven.html
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. So you're saying all of the young teenage girls who escaped
And yes, they described it as escaping, lied? And their babies that matched Koresh's DNA - that was just a fluke?
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #79
89. Go ahead and cite that testimony. I'll be happy to read it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #89
98. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #98
105. So you can't actually back up your claims, and you attempt to deflect
your lack of ability onto me by labeling me a RWer?

I'm not laughing near you, I'm laughing at you. And pointing. And falling over, holding my sides.
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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #49
102. But we owe them an opportunity to come out on there own.
Innocent untilproven guilty is I believe the concept involved here...

The opportunity they didn't get in Waco.

A few men knocking on the door in regular suits with a warrant could have done a much better job.



Weaver didn't get the opportunity either, but it still could have been settled peacefully.

Instead of people dying, and Weaver being acquitted of all charges besides a failure to appear charge.

And the feds paying out 1.1mil to him and his family.



But no, the ever growing trend of ninja suited gestapo with machine guns kicking in doors in the night with no knock warrants and elite snipers deployed should applauded, and extended..
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #49
104. Depends on Charisma of 2nd in command
The question is really what would of happened if Koresh had been arrested away from the compound. Without his Charisma would the Branch Dividians stayed unified in their bunker or would they have fractured? Theyh might have rallied behind a second in command and hunkered down in the bunker. Or they may have fractured and had any number of people loose faith in the movement and leave over the subsequent days.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. although I think the raid on the BDs was a botch, there was ample evidence
that Koresh was sexually abusing children.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. Let's start with RAPING CHILDREN for Koresh
And he had Fully Auto Weapons, as well as grenades

Even in Texas, those aren't legal without the permits (which I am assuming Koresh did not have)

Weaver also had fully auto weapons
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Thats a 5-year prison sentence, not a DEATH sentence. (n/t).
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. It becomes one if you shoot the arresting officer
Which Koresh did

Which Randy Weaver did
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #51
62. Well, in Randy Weaver's case at least...
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 03:06 PM by LAGC
It was ruled self-defense, IN A COURT OF LAW.

Considering they murdered his kid for no reason...
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. That was one of the most BS decisions ever
Reminds me of how Reginald Denny back during the King riots was deemed to have acted in "self defense" while pulling a truck driver out of his car, and beating him half to death with a tire iron.
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DrCory Donating Member (862 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #65
92. Reginald Denny WAS the Truck Driver. N/T
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #92
133. Don't confuse certain people with the actual facts. It makes them sad.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. Weaver violated NFA
or was suspected of violation and was going to be arrested for attempting to purchase a short barreled weapon.. That arrest could have been handled better.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
41. Sure but Why. BTW terminate with prejudice
is a term used by a federal agency in reference to assassination.

In hindsight both agencies would have handled both events differently and have said so.
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
48. You open fire on Federal law enforcement....
... you better surrender right away, otherwise your days are numbered.

That's my lesson from Waco.

Do these nuts think people who fire on law enforcement should get a free pass?
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. They didn't just fire on them, they killed a few
Cop killers don't exactly last long....
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. The point is...
The Feds could have easily assessed the situation, realized there were children inside, and backed off and just put the place on surveillance and waited for him to inevitably leave the compound eventually. Instead they turned those people into martyrs who saw it as their "last great stand" against an provingly over-bearing government.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
53. I think it's pretty clear you don't know what you're talking about.
Both were examples of our gov't at it's very worst.

Exhibit A: "Waco: the Rules of Engagement" pretty much blows the entire gov't case out of the water
Exhibit B: You have presented absolutely zero evidence for your claim about Weaver and his kids.

To actually utilize logic and reason exposes histrionic, ahistorical statements like "would have put our country at risk" as the unsupported, uniformed appeal to emotion that it is.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #53
64. Waco: the Rules of Engagement is RW Propaganda. Tell me, did Hillary kill Vince Foster too?
I know that if you shoot at Fed Law Enforcement, your life will not last long

You kill a cop (like the Branch Davidians did) and your life will not last long either

How did they put this country at risk? Well stockpiling illegal weapons such as grenades and fully auto weapons, and then preaching about the end of the world to me, and maybe I'm just paranoid, endangers the community. Oh, and raping CHILDREN also is a threat to the country.

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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. More Know-Nothing unsupported statements. RW? Go ahead and show where.
And Vince Foster? Keep your strawman, I'm not interested in matters irrelevant to the subject, thanks.

And go ahead and cite the evidence and conviction records for 'child rape'.

I'll wait.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. You can't convict the dead, sorry
Evidence?

OK How about a 14 year old girl who fathered Koresh's child.

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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #72
78. Sorry, that's exactly what you're doing here.
Oh, and here's the DOJ's stand on the matter, yet again: http://www.usdoj.gov/05publications/waco/wacoseven.html
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Of course the DOJ caved, We Democrats have been known to be lacking a spine every so often
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #80
85. More unsubstantiated claims. Go ahead and show where they caved...
and provide some evidence that Weaver killed his kids.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #85
93. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #93
100. You've made baseless claims, you've been called on them, you can't support them
and now stamp your little feet and try and label me a Freeper?

I accept your concession that you have no idea what you're talking about, and couldn't express it if you did.

Get help.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #64
71. Both are examples of fuckups..
there were much better ways to handle both situations. These people were not CONVICTED of crimes YET. Both agencies have said they made massive errors and would act differently if they could.

Just from a tactical perspective there were better options that would have rendered the desired outcome.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. You want a better option? Stop mollycoddling Domestic Terrorists!
When they want to take their kids out of school because President Obama is telling the kids to stay in school, they might just be a domestic terrorist!
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #74
88. What the fuck does that have to do with this topic?
there are plenty of reasonable places this topic could go, that is just not one of them.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #88
129. Um, Randy Weaver and David Koresh were Domestic Terrorists
That is, unless you're one of the many DU'ers who thinks "Poor widdle Preacher!" In which case I suggest you grow a pair and stop defending criminals
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #74
90. Holy fuck, you've gone round the bend.
When they want to take their kids out of school because President Obama is telling the kids to stay in school, they might just be a domestic terrorist!

Logic and you are like oil and water.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #90
122. WTF happened to logic and rationality around here?
The appeals to emotion and histrionic, rhetorical arm-flailing are become also comics-worthy.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #71
81. Absolutely. Koresh was known to take long runs from the compound....
to 5 or 6 miles out and back. LE has admitted, in hindsight, that they could have picked him up then and simply avoided the entire mess.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
73. Waco was justified, Ruby Ridge was not.
Weaver sued the Feds and they settled, remember?

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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #73
116. Waco wasn't justified either
Koresh actually invited the ATF to come have a look.

The local Sheriff could have walked up, knocked, and taken him in.

Presumed innocent until proven guilty...... If you live through the military assault by black suited commandos... ;)

What happened to G-man with balls.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
82. Tactical and Political issues are afoot..
tactical first: the tactics available to law enforcement in the us are limited, and should be. The government can not just place a guy with a .308 out there and drop people or call in air strikes. They are not the military.

the desired results of an arrest is to place a person in custody in an orderly manner, seize evidence, and not loose lives in the process.

Both agencies have gone on record and said they made tactical errors and would not approach these conditions again in the same way.

Political issues are much more complex, but basically the waco incident became a political event and should not have. People write books on these topics and they are far to complex to summarize in a web post.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
84. Epic fail
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #84
96. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #96
106. Nice post, Prince Charmless.
What's up your ass lately? Not enough hugs? Breast fed through a straw? What?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
86. Well I happened to live both in Texas and in Idaho, when both incidents
occurred. I think maybe they had some right in Waco, although most Texans felt they were heavy handed especially because their were children involved. They were definitely over the top about Ruby Ridge, which could have been resolved without one gun shot being fired and a young boy and his mother being killed. Also, it was definitely a big PR mistake made in an area that is distrustful of government to begin with.
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dugaresa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
108. Dealing with crazy people never goes well. That is why both situations went south
Koresh was a child molesting f*ck up who apparently was just a hair smarter than the idiots who followed him around and allowed him to molest his kids.

Weaver was nuts too, but not as nuts as Koresh.

Both broke laws and then were astounded that they weren't allowed to live in the USA but declare their own personal space somehow exempt from the the laws of the USA.

The lesson learned is that it never goes well when you take on crazy people.


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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #108
113. that's absoluttely not true. Situations with "crazy people" can be managed.
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dugaresa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #113
121. like Jim Jones right?
as I recall a peaceful delgation goes to visit him to investigate based on the concerns of relatives and they are gunned down by Mr. Crazy and then he goes into mass suicide mode.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #121
128. who says that was managed right?
Look, there's a reason all kinds of de-escalation are taught to law enforcement.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #128
135. You're right, it's probably Congressman Ryan's fault.
:crazy:
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #121
130. Great point
But some here seem to think these Domestic Terrorists want to play paddy cakes
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Dogtown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
114. !De Acuerdo!
I agree completely.

And what did you do to piss off Forkboy?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #114
124. LOL
This isn't his first post like this lately. He's jonesing to see someone die.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #124
127. This is ..
the strangest post in a while. That is saying a good bit.. Almost like someone left themselves logged in at a internet cafe..
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #114
132. I dunno - I put him on ignore so I wouldn't get more pissed off
It seems to sort of work...
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
125. Yahweh or the highway!
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SIMPLYB1980 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
134. Also a nice piece of info on Ruby Ridge.
It didn't happen under Clinton it happened under Bush Sr. So remember that right wing trolls, you're own party doesn't mind you being taken out if you act like a terrorist.
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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
136. Locking
This has become a flamefest with many personal attacks that appear to be completely unwarranted.

cbayer
DU Moderator
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