Both rape and rape accusations are products of the roles assigned by rape culture. In the traditional seduction scenario, a woman is expected to not desire to have sex, and to only submit after the man has successfully coerced her into submission. When the preferred model for consensual sex looks a hell of a lot like rape, an array of fucked-up scenarios are inevitable: the woman never wanted to fuck the guy, refuses to submit, and is raped; the woman submits to the man’s coercion in order to avoid other negative consequences (like being raped); the woman had desired the sex all along, but must defend her femininity by saying that she had been coerced into sex. Thankfully, a good deal of modern men and women reject these antiquated ideas, but they’re far from being banished from the sexual landscape. Especially when that landscape involves four men, one woman, and freshman year of college.
And yet, even the people who care most about false rape accusations seem to find ways to keep rape culture going strong. In his coverage of the case, Men’s News Daily editor Paul Elam writes:
>>>"In what has become a more or less common turn of events, the female Hofstra University student that accused five men, >>>including one classmate, of gang raping her in a school dormitory bathroom has recanted the charges. That’s legal and >>>media speak for admitting she cheapened herself by taking on five men willingly on a men’s room floor and lied about it >>>later out of what little capacity for shame she had."
Elan admits that even if the woman hadn’t accused five men of raping her, she still would have “cheapened herself” by having sex with the men “willingly.” Meanwhile, the four released men in the case carry no such group-sex stigma when they pose triumphantly outside the jailhouse doors. In case you’re interested, it gets worse.
This is exactly what I am talking about with regards to fucked up memes about sex as conquest and exploitation
I like sex but when it's EXPECTED of me then it isn't much fun.
At the same time, when one partner is denied sex they have a choice of A) adultery B) ending the relationship C) a life of celibacy they would never had entered into if they had known up front.
Casual sex is certainly risky. Nevermind the threat of STDs, what about the threat of bringing home an unbalanced stalker or even developing an emotional attachment for someone who was seeking nothing more than physical gratification.
I've had girlfriends who slept with guys to secure their affections and I've had a boyfriend or two who couldn't have cared less about me as a person. I find both situations tragic and they ruin what should ordinarily be an act of pleasure...and sometimes nurturing affection.
6. i don't know how i feel about the term 'rape culture' -- but
i strongly agree with this sentiment --Elan admits that even if the woman hadn’t accused five men of raping her, she still would have “cheapened herself” by having sex with the men “willingly.”
If he is saying that in a rape culture, a woman who engages in consensual sex diminishes her value to that culture's establishment, and that this is a fucked up concept, I agree.
Women learn from our culture to very diametrically opposed memes, one is the religious "sex outside of marriage is bad" meme, the other is the "if you don't screw like crazy you are a stuck-up prude". this is a recipe for neurotic behavior.
9. And separately, I want to comment that this idea of the US having a rape culture is not news to me.
I have long recognized that violence in every area of human endeavor is an essential element to modern American culture, and I am simply repeating myself here, but since I don't see any change for the better going on, it needs to continue to be repeated.
13. agree. i dont think it is news to many women. more challenging for men to see
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 09:44 AM by seabeyond
though why, i wonder since it is so obvious. to me it is denial for perservation purposes. or maybe not. maybe i am wrong. you tell me. would love to know....
19. I would have to guess as to why our culture is so violent, but
part of the explanation is historical (when Europeans came to the New World, they took, killed and raped, with the possible exception of the French), but also the fact that there are industrial interests who profit from the production of arms and other tools of domination. Best I can come up with right now.
22. nah, my question is a little easier i think, lol
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 10:30 AM by seabeyond
i was assuming, and that is never productive, that yes.... women are well aware of a rape culture, but not so much male. yet... here you state you are very much aware, which shoots my comment to hell. so i am asking, do you think it is as pretty well known by male gender as it is female, or do you think they pretend, deny, dont believe it is what it is.
as a whole, not individually and i know you cant speak for all males, just your opinion. lol
26. Since it's a system that works to the advantage of males, I'd presume that many or most
take a 'hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil' kind of approach to it, sort of like I'd guess benevolent slave owners did. Why rock the boat if you are materially and socially better off with the order as is?
it's not like I never have contact with women. My mother is still living and I have sisters and a sister in law. None of them ever say anything to me about this being a rape culture. It just seems to me that would be a huge issue if somebody knew about it and that a guy would hear about it.
70. i dont talk to my two brothers or father about it. at the moment they think they are picked on
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 08:45 PM by seabeyond
being white males, in this culture. they talk to me all the time about how unfair it is for them between the blacks and women. adn as they go on and on and on, i tell them, i dont want to talk about it.
my father was talking to me about the greta gal on fox and said, .... she isnt one of those feminist women.
i told him
i am a feminist.... and total quiet
why?
cause men associate feminists with being manhaters and my father and two brothers who know i dont hate males, taking care of all three of them, taking care of hubby and two sons, taking care of my two nephews cause none of them have women in their lives.... cant reconcile that in their brain. doesnt compute. doesnt work
and it would be a total waste of a breath to say a word to those men
love them dearly
but that is where they sit.
we generally know who will be receptive. and those that arent, why bother.
75. I am not sure if any of the women I am close to
would call themselves a feminist. I remember she got all upset in the 70s when somebody called her "Ms."
It seems that you are not very receptive to their point of view either, but they still go on and on about it. Debate is sort of a family tradition for me. My dad, the geologist and my uncle the biology teacher and my other uncle the fundamentalist used to debate evolution all of the time.
84. i had never called myself a feminist either. abhorred the word.
Edited on Wed Sep-23-09 06:37 AM by seabeyond
i had been conditioned like so many to believe that if i used the word i hated men, and was less than feminine. the last 10 yrs have made me concerned enough that thru reflection i came to understand i had to take back the word and not allow the foxs news of the world define who a feminist is.
the same with liberal. talking to brother i said i was liberal and he says quickly, .... i didnt call you that.
as if it was a bad word, an insult.
and again, i had never called myself a liberal because of the rw defining who the liberal was and i said.... no way. cant allow that. for the last five years i am often saying the word in the panhandle of texas, just so people hear someone use it, without a negative feel to it.
why would a woman want to be called a fem with how so many have defined it in order to shut women up.
i have never had an interest in being called Ms.
we have always had debate and discussion in our house, quite passionately at times. since about 2004 i have not been able to discuss politics with brothers and father. and i miss it. they are fox news, limbaugh listeners adn it has really effected them. changed them. do you understand the kind of discussion that is. do you get it?
so for peace in the house and family, i cannot talk this stuff with family. it isnt open discussion. it is closed minded. and there is no shift, we know how each feels. why do it repeatedly.
11. WTF? In What World Does Coerced Sex Look Like the "Traditional Seduction Model"?
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 09:35 AM by NashVegas
In the traditional seduction scenario, a woman is expected to not desire to have sex, and to only submit after the man has successfully coerced her into submission.
Maybe I'm just old, but I thought the traditional seduction model was the one where a guy was able to charm a woman's undies off, in spite of her wanting to delay sex until she was more certain she wanted to get intimately involved with the guy.
The expectation is that "maybe" means yes, "no" means maybe, and "yes" means the woman is a tramp. This is why the "no means no" meme is pushed so hard, to neutralize that nonsense.
42. I can see why the "traditional seduction scenario" is a stumbling block for some here
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 03:59 PM by omega minimo
It does seem a bit antiquated, given the sexual revolution, then AIDS... now "hooking up....." times and attitudes have changed. And regressed.
So, referring to "in the traditional seduction scenario" seems valid. And goes to the balance (or lack of) of power b/w men and women mentioned elsewhere.
"....to submit only after the man has successfully coerced her into submission."
"a guy was able to charm a woman's undies off, in spite of her wanting to delay sex until she was more certain she wanted to get intimately involved with the guy."
You use the word "charm" rather than "coerce" as he "charms" her to submit to what he wants, "in spite of her wanting to delay sex."
For "somehow manages to convince her he's a fantastic guy who will take responsibility for his actions," or otherwise has her knowingly panting for it.
How anyone can confuse that for coercion is beyond me.
76. What does "charm" have to do with "take responsibility for his actions"?
"For "somehow manages to convince her he's a fantastic guy who will take responsibility for his actions," or otherwise has her knowingly panting for it."
So he "manages to convince here" even if it's not true or "otherwise has her knowingly panting for it."
You are still describing coercion. As you did before:
"a guy was able to charm a woman's undies off, in spite of her wanting to delay sex until she was more certain she wanted to get intimately involved with the guy."
Society celebrates all kinds of antisocial behavior, but it's hard to make the case that the legal barriers erected to defend against, and the punishment given for the crime is consistent with a society which finds the act something worthy of celebration.
Whether social norms establish the conditions where it is more likely is a different question. Sadly, there aren't many socially acceptable avenues of prevention.
And no, what is described is not the traditional seduction scenario, and never has been.
we were talking about future and where we saw ourselves. he said something like, .... i figure we have only so many more years here before we relocate to another state (kids in school still). my heart starts beating, full of excitement, really, REALLY.... for real. why? i asked
he told me, he didnt think i could go much longer without going completely mad. i am only partially mad right now
so yes
i do need to get out and full of joy husband recognized.
i was not speaking of the panhandle exclusively though as far as entertainment by rape.....
39. It obsesses over the stereotypical "women is raped by stranger on the street" incidents....
...but the vast majority of rape cases are not like that, usually the rapist knows the victim and the rape happens in situations where the rapist can easily claim it was consensual. IMO people obsess over the former, even though it's much rarer than acquaintance rape, out of a denial of a problem of misogyny close to home.
97. I don't know where you get the idea that people aren't aware
that most rape victims know their attacker. It's a pretty well-publicized fact. Rape is not even unique in that regard. Roughly 2/3s of murder victims knew their attackers.
and whether the victim and attacker knew one another says nothing about misogyny one way or the other.
21. Good grief! Now you're dragging in posts from other boards?
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 10:43 AM by TexasObserver
The world of grown ups is not nearly as conspiratorial as you imagine it to be. You'll see eventually, when you get out of school, get a job, take on some adult responsibilities, date, meet some nice woman, and maybe marry her. You may be shocked to know that most Americans do not think they're living in a RAPE CULTURE.
Here's the reality in America in almost all hetero relationships: Men and women progress sexually at a pace acceptable to both of them. They arrive at some level of accommodation regarding sex when they have a relationship. And both in and out of relationships, women, not men, typically decide when sex will be had between them.
40. I'm 23, and have been in several relationships, so quit with the condescending attitude..
People don't think they are living in a Rape Culture because they are in denial. There are many posters here that made it clear in a thread a few months ago that raping a passed out drunk women was OK. There is a study that has been mentioned a lot that says 35% of college age men would force a woman to have sex with them if there were no legal consequences.
62. And a lot of people found that scene disturbing, which was the point of that OP Odin2005 linked.
Your commentary in that thread alternated between "it's just a movie" and outright defenses of raping drunk women IRL. You made your views on that clear. Drunk women are fair game.
Predictable rape culture apologist kewl dude being selective about whether pornography is good or bad, depending on the situation. Y'all should make up your minds about that.
Indeed. So are drunk men. Alcohol's a fine social lubricant.
Until you get drunk and black out and "consent" to some big hairy dude, or dudes. I suspect it won't seem so fine to you then.
74. If you think that any woman who is drunk is "fair game"
Then you have the mentality of a rapist. I'm not commenting on your personal situation. I'm commenting on your attitude. I have no idea what you've done IRL. I only know what you've said here on DU.
Search for a monster-sized thread involving a movie called "Observe and Report", with Seth Rogan in it. There is a scene where the character played by Rogan has sex with a passed out woman at a party. Many poster insisted that this was not rape. Given that this thread was started only a week after my friend had been raped it disgusted me beyond belief
63. Sorry I had to leave for a while, thanks for the link
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 08:16 PM by tammywammy
Edited to add: I never saw the movie so I can't comment on what was or was not shown in it.
As for rape or non-rape that has occurred in the news, and not in a movie, I have yet to see one person on here think having sex with someone that's passed out is something to be cheered on.
56. Big whoop. that makes you an expert on...your own life.
People don't think they are living in a Rape Culture because they are in denial.
Right. Because it's absolutely not possible that your view or the one you read on this blog is incorrect or overstated. Generalizing from statistics about what a minority of immature men would do to society in general is not very persuasive.
"In the traditional seduction scenario, a woman is expected to not desire to have sex, and to only submit after the man has successfully coerced her into submission."
To paraphrase Barney Frank, on what planet does the writer spend most of her time?
Who the hell deires a partner with no desire herself?
Who on earth comes up with these Bad Romantic Novel Outline ideas?
This is the kind of stuff propagated by guys who can't get laid. They fail to understand that women decide if we want you or not, and if we don't want you, you don't get us. Considering the biological imperative, we have only one egg a month, while you guys have those gazillions of sperm. So we have to be selective.
And we are.
The reluctance of some to deal with the power of women's sexuality, that we are in charge of our sexual decisions, and that it's not, in fact, a "rape culture" is, in this day and age, mind-boggling. That woman at Hofstra seems to have unleashed the Hounds of 1630 in some people who can't quite wrap their heads around the fact that a woman wanted to bang a bunch of guys. Sober, happy, and doing what she wanted to do.
'Rape culture." It's an insult, diminishing the crime of rape, writing it off as a normal part of daily life, when, in fact, it's an horrendous and terrible thing that happens far too often, but not often enough that it's any kind of quotidian event........................
You mean those cunning, ingenious, male Svengalis who mesmerize dim, vulnerable women into doing things they could not possibly desire? Because we all know women cannot resist the machinations of the superior male mind.
Just like the repressed memory "victims" whose wet dreams include BDSM sex and ageplay.
Or just like the adult women who choose group sex and then cry rape over it.
There's a helluva lotta victim manufacturing going on.
31. Since you're one of the people who most adamantly ran around all threads...
railing away about salivating brutes and female vulnerability, and doing your part to dismiss any POSSIBLE idea that the Hofstra woman wanted to have the sex that she did, it's hilarious that YOU are now posting this article.
Perhaps you don't understand it. Or you only comprehend the snippets that correlate with your theories but don't grasp larger concepts.
The last quote by Elan is taken out of context btw. It means something entirely different when you read the full article. He blames people like you and the media for the stigma. While I have no love for Men's News Daily, gotta agree with Elan on this one.
Reminds me of the "culture of death" the RW is always railing against whenever they complain about violent video games, abortion, or heavy metal music.
77. I agree. It's disgusting to think of sex with any woman who isn't fully willing.
The problem area now is the common practice of substances used by both sexes to lower their inhibitions. When is consent withdrawn by operation of law?
I don't buy your sensitivity. A self hating man who has a small bit of life experience and then uses it to impress all the gals.. Guess mommy didn't love you enough or your a sham.
Here's a decent definition of rape culture (It apparently is needed here)from a book on the topic
"What is rape culture? It is a complex of beliefs that encourage male sexual aggression and supports violence against women. It is a society where violence is seen as sexy and sexuality as violent. In a rape culture, women perceive a continuum of threatened violence that ranges from sexual remarks to sexual touching to rape itself. A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women and presents it as the norm.
In a rape culture, both men and women assume that sexual violence is a fact of life, as inevitable as death or taxes. This violence, however, is neither biologically nor divinely ordained. Much of what we accept as inevitable is in fact the expression of values and attitudes that can change
More than half of all reported rapes are committed by someone the survivor knows. Once we as a society take in the meaning to that fact, we will begin to understand the deeper issues of power, sexuality and gender relationships surrounding sexual violence"
from the preface of "Transforming A Rape Culture (revised)
Woman are the sex class. Our sexuality is bartered and sold, bought and traded. A lot of our more innocent-appearing culture standards have their basis in woman as commodity. Weddings, for instance, especially 'traditional' weddings.
Or not so innocent culture indicators as in those CSI 'dead chick' shows. (Another week, Another dead stripper, another forensic miracle.)
How do we express or even know, our best sexuality, our desires, if even when we 'go wild' it's just another moneymaker for a fucking pimp? Or another ridiculous internet porn website. Or simply another way to be Judged Slut because maybe we didn't sell it. Maybe We made sexual choices and Didn't make Monetary or Emotional profit. God forbid we just go out and get laid--that's taking chances in more ways than one since from what I remember, there is a sad dearth of excellent lovers out there.
I love the female body, hell, I even love my own, but I don't think they're more attractive than a male's. So riddle me this; What's up with that shit? Why are women the sexual commodity?
Although I can certainly observe that dynamic in regular life and in our mass media (Vampire stories are always more popular with women than with men. I'm sure the "charm" and "seduction" of the undead has something to do with that. Witness the popularity of the Twilight and True Blood series, and the perennial classic that never dies, Dracula.). I can see this even in the old joke a comedienne said years ago. "I only have sex to get a new refrigerator."
I've even fallen into the meme at times. Once, when I was talking to a friend about foreskins. She didn't want them on men because men "don't know how to clean themselves" (which is a bit sexist), but I told her... "Look. We're not that complicated. All you have to do is say two words... Blow Job, and a man will be putty in your hands. BJs are more important than football to us. You can get a man to mow your lawn, change your oil, even paint your house if you just say "Blow Job". So if all you want him to do is wash it, then he's going to jump up off that couch, run to the bathroom, and he'll bring it back to you sparkling." I did have to throw the bargain thing in there for some reason, and didn't really need to.
As a gay man, I have to say that we just don't have this type of dynamic going on with our sexual interests. We just hit it off, have dinner, and hit the sheets. Perhaps it is an offshoot of the larger culture, as men don't get the stigma of being sluts, so when the women are taken out of the equation, then the game changes to an easy lay, or if no sex is involved at first we approach each other as equals. The only thing about power plays/violence in the gay community is in the dungeon scene, which is participated in by only a few people, because it's fun for them. They have no illusions that this is real life or spills out into their larger life, it's just sex play because they get off on it. I'm not into it, but I do know a few who are into it, and they seem healthier mentally than some of the people described in this thread.
86. if you wnat to get your man to do something, give him a bj.
Edited on Wed Sep-23-09 06:52 AM by seabeyond
isnt that exactly what men bitch about women using sex... isnt that exactly the conditioning and creepiness of manipulation that we dont want in a relationship?
i have no interest in sex with husband being tied to a condition.
i could never imagine my hubby saying to me.... if you want sex then you need to do this if i do this.
98. I was making a joke of course, but it did buy into the stereotype.
People should have sex because they want to, and who they want to have sex with. It's the most natural thing we can do while we're alive, and society/religion has found a way to fuck even that up. No other reason to have sex other than you want to should be necessary.
85. another conditioning i have baffled... womens bodies are beautiful, who wants to see a mans....
like it isn't simply gorgeous.
personally, i dont think the womans body is all that compared to a mans. why have i been told all these decades that i dont want to look at the male body, only the female
another something i have heard repeatedly and now challenge cause it is just a full of shit statement.
83. Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any good peer-reviewed studies on this issue?
We've been debating this on about three or four threads now and nobody is really changing anybody's mind. Certainly there have to be some scientific answers as to whether or not misogynistic culture leads to rape. But the only studies I've seen so far are mostly just data showing a correlation between things like pornography and rape and while I'm sure the data is good, correlation does not imply causation.
If anybody has seen any good studies on this topic I would be very interested to read them, especially if they challenge my preconceived notions about it.
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