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mdavies013 Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:19 AM
Original message
My wife is a music teacher and a parent asked that her son no longer take part in class....

apparently it is against her religion (well not religion...it is against her preachers teachings). They had a meeting with her principal and agreed that the student would not participate in any dancing or playing instruments. I try to think of myself as religiously tolerant...we go to a Unitarian Universalist church...but that just chaps my khakis.

I just don't get this one.
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:21 AM
Response to Original message
1. Ashcroft didn't dance at his own wedding.
because dancing is against his religion. Something to do with the devil.

Too bad sex isn't against their religion, so we could have fewer of these nuts.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:32 AM
Original message
Nuts?
It's a religious belief. It doesn't hurt anyone. It's just different. I hardly think that warrants calling them nuts.

Ashcroft did plenty of things that warrant calling him a nut but not dancing is not one of them.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:43 AM
Response to Original message
21. Religion doesn't hurt anyone?!
You must be kidding! You have to be. Have you missed the entire 21st Century up to now? What do you think Al Qaeda and George Bush have been fighting if it isn't a frigging religious war against each other? Both sides claim God TELLS them to attack the enemy. Any religion that's so fundamentalist that it makes a sin out of music and dancing, especially for children and tells them they're going to hell if they have fun certainly does hurt them.


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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #21
30. You're reading too much into this comment
The poster did not say "Religion doesn't hurt anyone" (though your point that it does deserves debate). She said that banning dancing and music is a belief that doesn't hurt anyone.

While I believe that the ban is ridiculous, I agree it is mostly harmless, taken by itself. The real problem is that such a ban is symptomatic of a repressive culture within that religion. Doubtless, more gets banned than music, such as rational thought.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #30
78. And I say it does hurt. Just like any oppression hurts
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 09:18 AM by lunatica
It seems a simple thing to ban something on the face of it, but oppression is oppression, especially of something as natural as the expression of music which, by the way is unique to our species and part of a much larger creative impulse in us. To make such a thing into a sin is sick. But because it's done by some religion then we must see some sort of harmlessness or even divinity in it?

Nope.

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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #78
86. While we are hitting all the points
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 10:03 AM by DireStrike
Music is NOT unique to the human species. I'm guessing you are discrediting the songs birds and whales right off the bat as "not music"? Seems arrogant and species-centric.

Here are a couple results from the first page of google animals + music

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/0...

Excellent point in here: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2003/11... /

Schwartz's study also casts light on the long-running question of whether animals understand or appreciate music. Despite the apparent abundance of "music" in the natural world -- birdsong, whalesong, wolf howls, synchronized chimpanzee hooting -- previous studies have found that many laboratory animals don't show a great affinity for the human variety of music making.

Marc Hauser and Josh McDermott of Harvard argued in the July issue of Nature Neuroscience that animals don't create or perceive music the way we do. The fact that laboratory monkeys can show recognition of human tunes is evidence, they say, of shared general features of the auditory system, not any specific chimpanzee musical ability. As for birds, those most musical beasts, they generally recognize their own tunes -- a narrow repertoire -- but don't generate novel melodies like we do. There are no avian Mozarts.

But what's been played to the animals, Schwartz notes, is human music. If animals evolve preferences for sound as we do -- based upon the soundscape in which they live -- then their "music" would be fundamentally different from ours. In the same way our scales derive from human utterances, a cat's idea of a good tune would derive from yowls and meows. To demonstrate that animals don't appreciate sounds the way we do, we'd need evidence that they don't respond to "music" constructed from their own sound environment.

No matter how the connection between language and music is parsed, what is apparent is that our sense of music, even our love for it, is as deeply rooted in our biology and in our brains as language is. This is most obvious with babies, says Sandra Trehub at the University of Toronto, who also published a paper in the Nature Neuroscience special issue.


And do I really need to get the youtube links of dancing cockatoos and cats and dogs yowling with a piano?


For the record I think it is disgusting to ban music and/or dancing for religious reasons.
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #86
91. You have a point there with whales
since they are likely intelligent enough to make songs that are both creative and convey meaning, but birdsong is largely genetic, isn't it?
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #91
98. I don't think that's right.
There is a LOT of research into birdsong. It is a complex topic, and interesting.

A large component of the human ability to appreciate tones and juxtaposition of sounds is probably genetic as well. Does that mean our music doesn't count? Would a smarter species with a larger brain able to appreciate, say, complex mathematical functions in its music dismiss our music? There's an episode of Star Trek Voyager where something like that happens, incidentally. :P

Check the quote I added to my previous post, and that article if you're interested.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #86
97. Birds, whales and other singing species are communicating with their 'music'
We communicate with our language and gestures, through our pictures and music. We create music for it's own sake. Maybe even to mimic the animals that do it naturally. But to claim that they are creating music for its own sake is a stretch.

You're giving Anthropomorphic qualities to other species.
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #97
99. Is it?
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 10:15 AM by DireStrike
You can say that for sure, now?
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #99
105. More than you can say what you're saying for sure
Can animals enjoy themselves? Yes. Do they create music for its own sake? Are they intelligent? Yes. But they aren't human with human attributes. They are what they are in all their splendid glory. We imitate them more than they imitate us. A lot more. That's part of what being creative is.
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #105
107. Our music is more complex.
That is all. No other differences.
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #78
92. You said it. nt
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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #78
111. We almost agree
Forgive me for the elaborate breakdown, but I really agree with some of what you wrote, and really disagree with other parts. This was the cleanest way to get my point across. You wrote:

It seems a simple thing to ban something on the face of it, but

Agreed, simple on its face, but there are complexities. That's a big BUT at the end of that sentence.


oppression is oppression

Absolutely do not agree. That's like saying theft is theft, or lying is lying, or evil is evil. There are very small oppressions, such as the constrictions of society on what is considered appropriate attire. From burkas to neck ties, every culture has some very small oppression. There are other examples not related to clothing, I'm sure, but you get my drift, right? To compare these to the larger oppressions of slavery, or racism and sexism, is not well-founded.


especially of something as natural as the expression of music which, by the way is unique to our species

Natural expression = agreed / unique to our species = not agreed (see thread, no need to rehash).


and part of a much larger creative impulse in us

Yes, and this gets back to what I wrote in my former post - the banning of music is dumb, but mostly harmless, EXCEPT for the fact that it generally is symptomatic of a oppressive mindset that would not limit itself to music.


To make such a thing into a sin is sick.

Yes, in complete agreement. But it's worthy to note that different religions define "sin" differently. Some see it as a punishable measure of disobedience, others as the effect of walking out of God's light. No punishment or judgment, just a change in consciousness.


But because it's done by some religion then we must see some sort of harmlessness or even divinity in it?

Though I stated I thought it was mostly harmless, I explained my exceptions, and my overall disagreement with the ban. Where di I or the other poster ever suggest it was divine? In fact, where did I ever tell you you must see it as harmless? The poster said she thought the ban was harmless, and you got a good handful of righteous indignation, and wrote back that religion wasn't harmless at all.

Not all religions are alike, not all are oppressive, and not every act that seems oppressive is influenced by religious scripture. In fact, at another point in the larger thread, I pint out that Psalm 150 specifically calls for signing, dancing, and music playing as a way to praise God. Just because some people screw their lives up by not reading what they claim to believe, should not condemn religion altogether.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #21
33. Wow some comprehension skills ya got there!
Go back and read my comment again.

But first stop and count to ten.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #33
75. You make nothing of a little abuse but fail to see it's place in the larger abuse
going on. How tolerant of you.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
47. The problem is, it's not really in Christian teachings.
There are lots and lots of verses about dancing and playing instruments. It's this weird sort of ignorance that really gets to me.
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #47
87. I don't think that's really a problem.
If they CLAIM to be christian, that would be weird, but there is no shortage of bizarre beliefs that have been held by people who were claiming to be christian.

The PROBLEM here is banning natural impulses that so deeply enrich life.
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
53. When I was in junior high, I had a friend with very strict parents, religion wise. She
was not allowed to party, wear make-up, any kind of adornment etc. etc. Some friends and I found her in the bathroom crying about this one day. We all made a vow right then to "help" her. We all started coming to school early and giving her a make-over every morning in the bathroom. Showed her how to roll her skirts a little higher (fashionably) showed her how to put on make-up all the girly teen-age stuff. She became a different person, even started doing better in school.So I really think their "beliefs" do hurt people who aren't receptive and wants out but can't make it.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #53
127. Of course none of her class mates commented on her
plain appearence or her unfashionable dress. They were all supportive and understanding.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
55. it could be harmful to the kids involved
I've known many people who left poverty behind using the power of talent and training. It is abusive in my view to refuse education for your kids.
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
84. What if it was against their religion for the kid to learn to read?
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 09:53 AM by mainer
Or do math? Or look at the sky? Or draw pictures?

People can decide for themselves if they want to refrain from the above activities. But to keep their children from LEARNING A SKILL such as music, or from artistically expressing themselves, is repressive and a form of child abuse.

Calling them nuts, rather than what they really are, is merely being mild.

We condemn the Taliban for not allowing girls to be educated, and for not allowing music. But somehow it's okay if the banning is done by Christians.
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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
117. the movie Footloose proves you're wrong.
Kevin Bacon has spoken!
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
133. Um yeah, nuts.
Not dancing because of fear of "the devil"? Yeah, that's pretty nuts.
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era veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
23. Repressed fundies
In my small KY hometown we had a saying; Why don't babtist fuck standing up?...People might think they're dancing...just passing this along
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8 track mind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #23
45. Hahahahaha! n/t
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suninvited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #23
96. hahahahaha!
that is hilarious. I am so going to remember and use that one some time.
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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
27. I'm surprised he would even have dancing at his wedding then.
:shrug:
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
68. Yeah, but that Tom Delay can sure cut a rug.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
71. Shakers. They didn't have sex. They are all just about gone. nt
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #71
73. Neither do the Jackers, and there's plenty of them around.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #73
81. They must have a better recruitment policy. LOL nt
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #71
95. Has anyone ever considered that the reason pandas have problems
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 10:04 AM by sudopod
reproducing in captivity is that they're too religious?
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
110. I came out of that denomination
Not dancing is the tip of the iceberg. My church went so far as to dictate that roller-skating was evil. I kid you not. After all, that time could be spent studying the Bible.

Assembly of God/charismatic believers have sex. With other people's spouses. Then they lie about it. They tell their parishioners that sex before marriage is Evil and Bad, then -- surprise! -- teenagers get pregnant due to a combo of no sex education and the fact they're having unprotected sex.

I think most of the issues with this denomination is their insistence in inserting themselves into areas of life that are nobody's business but the person involved. There's a passage of the Bible that talks about "working out one's salvation with fear and trembling", and maybe it's best for the individual to decide.

One thing's for sure, I was a lot happier when I left, and since.



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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
114. well, you know why baptists don't have sex while standing up, right?
because someone might think they're dancing!

(sorry, old, old joke but, sadly, still apropo for the "god hates waltzers" crew.)
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
2. Every ignorant child
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 06:47 AM by Turbineguy
is a victory.

Democracy requires education.

Anyway, as everybody knows, you only need an education so you can get a job. Then you can do your patriotic duty by buying shit you don't need.
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I Have A Dream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
3. Very sad.
:(

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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:24 AM
Response to Original message
4. Religion gone wrong again
I do know there are some religions that don't allow music of any kind. And many Baptist churches at one time (and maybe still) that do not allow dancing.

Being against dancing and music coupled with the grape juice in place of the communion wine have always baffled me. Yet they claim to be Christ like.


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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:25 AM
Response to Original message
5. Music is dangerous and corrodes the soul. Heed the admonishments!
Ignore them at your peril! Feel the flames of Hell lick at your ankles!

Bach, Tony Bennett, and garden whistling -- tools of the Devil!
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:25 AM
Response to Original message
6. Some traditions of various faiths don't do dancing or playing musical instruments.
It's weird and I think they're missing out, and at least among the Christians who say they avoid it because the Bible is against it I don't think they have a biblical leg to stand on, but it's not one of the things I'm willing to go apoplectic over.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. There were actually debates among early Puritan sects
as to whether or not it was permissible to use a pitch pipe to help unaccompanied choirs sing on key.
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mdavies013 Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. My wife has to spend time finding some new activity for this child to do while she teaches the rest

of the class and keep from causing a distraction. I guess I would have to visit their church service to see if they sing or if any type of instrument is played. Can devil possession only take place in school and only be prevented at church?
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. As for alternative activities for this one student, perhaps he could be
sent up to the cafeteria on an inquisitional witch-hunt.

He'll need to dust up on a few Bible verses, of course. I'd order the flashcards straight away.

The Devil is afoot in our schools!

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. Why can't he just go to the library or to the computer lab?
I don't understand why he should even be in the music room at all. As a teacher I wouldn't risk it.
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #17
89. I'll lay bets he's not allowed near a computer, either.
It's just more work of the devil.

And the library -- why, it contains a whole lot of evil BOOKS.
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Aragorn Donating Member (784 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
50. now there's the problem
It must be a younger grade with no other classes going on at the same time? IMO this should be something someone else (like the parents) should be responsible for.

If you can pull your kids out of school to avoid a speech you can pull them out of class to avoid devil music - but you are responsible for that time, not the teacher or school.

God helps those who help themselves, allegedly.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
42. The bible says anything
you want it to say.
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Berry Cool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
56. Yeah. The Amish sing hymns, but don't use instruments.
I have no idea why they consider musical instruments to be evil.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
7. Music is how Satan seizes your loins.
Satan gets a foothold in your trousers and won't let go, once you start gyrating to the pied piper in Music Class.
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crim son Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. Heh.
Nice.
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a kennedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. This struck me funny as I was remembering Tom DeLay on DWTS
last night...... :puke: :puke: :puke:
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MiniMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #18
63. Please, I am trying my best to forget him shaking his hips last night
:scared:
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Bluzmann57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
8. As one who was raised around music
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 06:32 AM by Bluzmann57
and as one who has incorporated a musical style into his username, I really cannot understand how there can be happiness without music. I feel sorry for that kid.
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mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
26. I don't think happiness is the goal.
Blind, mindless obedience is the goal.
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8 track mind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
51. well put Bluzman
I remember the first time i heard Led Zeppelin back in the late 80's. Blew me away and i wanted a guitar after that. Still play guitar to this day, and i now have a vinyl collection approaching 600 records.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:30 AM
Response to Original message
9. It's not all that unusual
There are several religions that don't believe in singing or dancing.
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rfranklin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. The Taliban are in an uproar about Afghanistan "Idol"
It's the coomon impulse to control the activities of everyone around you.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
32. Well let me know when the religious nuts who don't dance take over our government
Let's remember that even the GOP laughed at John Ashcroft.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #32
59. Some of them DO dance.



Here's the tale of them OILING UP THE SEATS!

Glory!

http://www.au.org/media/church-and-state/archives/2006/...

snip>

A trio of Religious Right activists was so concerned about Judge Samuel A. Alitos confirmation hearings that they slipped into the hearing room hours before the event got under way and blessed all of the chairs with holy oil.

The Rev. Rob Schenck, president of the National Clergy Council in Washington, D.C., tried to enter the Senate Judiciary Committees hearing room Jan. 5 but was blocked by Capitol Police. Schenck said he wanted to continue a ceremony to consecrate the room. He told reporters he and two others, the Rev. Patrick Mahoney and Grace Nwachukwu, had entered the room earlier and anointed all of the chairs with holy oil.

We did adequately apply oil to all the seats, Schenck told The Wall Street Journal. <unsnip

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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #32
79. Ashcroft's tradition dances IN worship. They don't do "secular" dancing. nt
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #15
43. On the other hand, they're perfectly fine
with the burka-wearing women in the Afghan dating site, "Ican'tSeeYourFacebook".
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #9
77. I don't know of any that don't allow singing.
Could you name these? Just curious.
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crim son Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:33 AM
Response to Original message
12. I think I've mentioned the religious wingnuts who used to live down the street.
No music, no dancing and no flowers. Two of the three children had emotional problems and it always bothered me to think that these angry, lonely kids were forbidden the refuge of music and other forms of beauty, in the name of their God. You know, the God who brought us music, and dance, and the flora and fauna. :eyes:
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Mariana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #12
44. No flowers? That's an new one on me. nt.
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:34 AM
Response to Original message
14. Psalm 100, 2 "Serve the Lord with gladness: come before his presence with singing"
And that's from the King James version, not some New Age, feel good Hippy bible.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. I've seen t-shirts and bumper stickers that say "If It Ain't the King James,
It Ain't the Bible!"

It's disconcerting that people like that are issued licenses to drive on the nation's roads.
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Everyone knows that Jesus spoke in an archaic English dialect!
:rofl:
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. LOL. Yep. That Jesus was a multi-lingual silver-tongued sonofagun.
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Fla_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #14
25. Psalm 98, 4-8
http://kingjbible.com/psalms/98.htm

4 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.

5 Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm.

6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.

7 Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

8 Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together


Now, I guess someone could nitpick and say singing about "Don Gato" (only song I remember from elementary school) isn't singing "unto the LORD"... but I would have to pull up the Romans 8:28 verse. :evilgrin:



http://www.surfinthespirit.com/music/bible-quotes.html
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #25
35. it's a symphony
"The hills are alive with the sound of music." - Maria von Trapp

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Berry Cool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #25
57. Yeah, see! Harps, cornets and trumpets are OK with God!
Just stay away from those oboes! :rofl:

LOL, "Don Gato"...I remember that song from school too! The cat in Spain or something...he dies (by falling off a roof, I think) and then when his funeral parade passes through the market square, the smell from the fishmonger's is so strong that it brings him back to life!
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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #14
34. Psalm 150
1. Praise the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens.

2. Praise him for his acts of power; praise him for his surpassing greatness.

3. Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre,

4. praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute,

5. praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals.

6. Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord.

Clearly, some people don't read their fricking bible :)
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Berry Cool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #34
58. Tambourines, lyres and cymbals also OK...
but remember, God never told Les Paul we needed a solid-body electric guitar. :rofl:
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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #58
66. Everyone's a critic, even the Big Guy.
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 08:46 AM by demwing
By the way, there's no playing 'Stairway to Heaven' in Heaven. Ain't allowed.
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JoDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #14
36. And David
danced and played cymbals before the Lord in joy.
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:40 AM
Response to Original message
19. Quakers
at one point in history did not accomodate dancing or music as they were seen as a distraction from more spiritual matters. This was largely dropped 150 years ago.
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #19
31. and hooray for that!
In our Meeting we always sang old hymns for the first 20 minutes or so (some so old they were composed by classical composers), then the minister (when we had one) or someone would talk for a little while, and sometimes an individual or small group would sing and/or play music, then we would have silent meeting for the remainder of the hour, about 20-30 minutes.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #31
64. Our meetings are still silent and unprogrammed
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 08:45 AM by derby378
We do have a "singing meeting" on the second Sunday of each month, though, unless they've changed it - I haven't been to meeting in quite some time.

On the personal side, however, the local Quakers have no objection to music. Hell, we could use more actual music in today's world.
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LuvNewcastle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
28. My grandmother was a hardshell Baptist
and they didn't even have a piano or an organ in her church. All the hymns were sung a capella. She loved music, however, even wrote songs for her clarinet. She also danced in contests when she was young. I guess accompaniment was only frowned upon in church. :shrug:
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ejpoeta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
29. i wonder if this is the kind of stuff that makes kids end up rebelling....
sitting there watching other kids having fun and trying to figure out why they are being punished.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #29
39. absolutely. not so long ago my oldest told me... there is nothing for him
to rebel against. he was kinda pissed. lol. i kinda liked.

he doesnt want to do anything harmful, disrespectful, or shameful, ... so what does that leave, anything i would be fine with as teenage rebellion, so where is the rebellion.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
37. meh... it is their business, not yours and totally ok with people making their choices
there is something in a group deciding how others should individually live or choices made
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
38. Don't you remember what happened to your brother? NO DANCING IN THIS TOWN!
NOW, try to get that "Footloose" song and Kevin Bacon's bad dancing out of your head.

HA!



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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
40. "Flee the very appearance of evil" Thessalonians 5:22
Actually, the idea that such moral turpitude as going to Walt Disney movies, participating in folk dancing or listening to wordily music would have been fairly mainstream among Evangelicals a generation or so ago.

In more recent years, this kind of separation from the mainstream of society is down to the more hardline sects - Usually sects that base their theology of holiness and separation from things of the world and its fading and fleeting pleasures on the early teachings of John and Charles Wesley - the founders of Methodism (groups such as Wesleyan Methodist, Wesleyan Holiness, Pentecostal Holiness, and the stricter wing of the Church of the Nazarene) or sects rooted in the teaching of early Anabaptist such as Mennonites or Plymouth Brethren or the very, very strictest of Baptist sects.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
41. Yeah, Bach's Cantata produces atheists wholesale.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
46. Just tell them that someday a good looking stranger named Ren McCormack will come to town...
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MorningGlow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
48. That's a shame
I'd never even dream of telling anyone how to practice their faith, but IMO it's a sad life that has no music in it. We are here to experience and express joy; living that way kind of wastes an entire lifetime. I hope they're only choosing to do it this one time and when they reincarnate, they'll opt for a happier existence. :evilgrin:
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
49. I routinely get parents who
opt their kids out of various literature that we use in my Language Arts classes. They are allowed to do that, and I sometimes struggle to come up with alternate choices that still explore the themes we are discussing in class. The best literature is thought-provoking.

A couple of years back, I got a parent who asked if I could get the rest of the class to stop talking about Harry Potter, since her daughter was not allowed to read or discuss the books, or view the films. Her daughter felt socially excluded.

We weren't using Harry Potter in the classroom, although sometimes a student would bring the series up to make a "text-to-text" connection in class discussion. All the conversation was at lunch and recess.

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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #49
54. It's an unreasonable for one set of parents to send their kid to
a public school and then ask the teacher if references to Harry Potter could please be discouraged among enrolled students, the children of other sets of parents.

A parent might write to complain to a school administrator about 7th graders telling dirty jokes in the back of the school bus. An administrator might even go out to the lot, board the bus, and remind those kids that they should not be telling dirty jokes on the school bus. My guess is the kids will sit quietly and then as soon as the principal leaves and the route begins, the jokes will resume, as they have in the back of school buses ever since there were school buses.

Those parents do their child a disservice by asking the child's teacher to discourage references to figures of popular culture.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #54
61. Of course it's unreasonable.
I get frustrated on behalf of my students, their children.

I also don't have to discourage that discussion, and I don't. Just because they ask, doesn't mean it happens.

I DO have to provide substitute novels if they disapprove of something we are actually reading in class.

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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. I'm glad you are in a classroom.
The kids may not be old enough to know it yet but they're lucky to be there too.

Carry on, and do it with a strong cheer from this observer.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #62
128. Thanks.
:hi:
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eagertolearn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #54
65. What I hear from teachers is that it takes sometimes only one parent
to complain about a video or book and then it is left out of our public school. It's frustrating for those of us who want our kids educated. How will they compete in the world outside of our town if they haven't been taught about global warming or something about drugs and sex other that fear based education? I have no problem with people following their own beliefs but when it effects kids in a public school I do have a problem. I try and supplement what my kids are learning but sometimes I can't figure out what has been left out. I've thought about complaining but my kids won't let me because they like the teachers and don't want to get them in trouble. Are there not regulations saying what the public schools must cover? Does anyone know what those are in Oregon? When you have teachers of the same belief system hired for key positions (librarian, health teacher, school nurse etc..) it does make me wonder what else is being left out.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #65
67. Squawking parents make teachers' jobs much more complex and
difficult.

The impulse to censor by small groups tends to dominate the debate, which is too bad.

This fall is Banned Book Week. It's one of my favorite holidays.
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eagertolearn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #67
82. The banned books lists always humor me....
So where are the kids supposed to learn about their bodies if you don't give them books explaining this? Several of these books are books written for kids to help them learn about this stuff. I bought these and gave them to my kids when they were young and then talked about certain issues with them. Reading about something doesn't promote it! Kids don't necessarily want to hear it all from their parents and the schools are leaving most of it out of their education because of the pressure from parents.

http://www.st-charles.lib.il.us/arl/booklists/banned100...
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #65
126. There is a state curriculum and state standards
You can probably find them on the internet if you look at the site for your state dept of education.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #65
130. What public schools must cover are called state standards.
They vary from state to state.

You can view Oregon's here:

http://www.ode.state.or.us/search/results/?id=54

Click on any subject, and it will take you to a menu for that subject, with a "standards" link.


Then be aware that, according to Marzano (What Works In Schools: Translating Research into Action 1993,)there are so many standards on the books that it would take, in our current structure, an extra 9 years to adequately teach them all.

http://books.google.com/books?id=MVyhsp10SIgC&pg=PA26&l...

Just because the state says it is supposed to happen, doesn't mean that it does. The school day, and year, is finite. Even shorter in my Oregon district this year. Due to budget cuts, our students get 147 instructional days. We already had one of the shortest instructional years for students in the nation BEFORE the budget cuts.
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bullwinkle428 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
52. I'm guessing it's one of those "non-denominational" churches -
those seem to be popping up like mushrooms around here. The ministers essentially have free rein to make up their own rules as they go along.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
60. Religion is child abuse.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #60
69. Brilliant.
:sarcasm:
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #69
74. I think it is as well. I would NEVER teach a kid to believe things
that can't be proven.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #74
85. Lets not cheapen the meaning of "abuse"
so that raising children in a faith tradition is morally equivallent to physically locking them in a closet and raping them occasionally.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #85
101. I dunno... Seen "Jesus Camp?"
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 10:18 AM by Sparkly
Looks like abuse to me, even if the scars don't show.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #101
104. Jesus Camp does not represent the experience
of the vast majority of people who are raised by their parents in a religious faith.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #104
106. Fair enough.
So not all religion is child abuse, but it's possible for religion to be child abuse.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #106
124. And, of course, your reasonable response goes unacknowledged.
Typical .......
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
70. That girl will either grow up to be a good little Stepford-bot.....
....or will be sneaking out to raves and dropping X.

It's sad, but strict religion really forces people to choose one of two extreme paths.
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Swagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
72. dancing and singing !..the work of the Devil !
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #72
83. Yes! And don't forget: Lucifer played the fiddle!

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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
76. I know there are traditions that don't allow secular dancing
(many such traditions--Pentecostal and Apostolic--dance in worship, interestingly), but I've never heard of an objection to instrumental music outside of worship. There are traditions, most notably the non-instrumental Church of Christ, that don't use instrumental music in worship, but I've never known them to object to instrumental music in other settings. So, these objections seem odd to me. I don't know any denomination that objects to both of these things.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
80. In my church we are encouraged to play music as a form of expression
The parent is a nut. Then again, the church I go to is a more liberal one.
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
88. I guess they want to forget the part in the OT
where King David danced in the streets with joy. Shouldn't it be if it was good enough for David, it's good enough for them?
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Rambis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
90. No Fun: Sex Pistols
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suninvited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
93. Church of Christ services
sing all of their music a capella. I don't know why, but they do NOT allow musical instruments, not even an organ. I don't know if they dance or not.
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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #93
103. My thought was that this family is Church of Christ
And the reasoning behind no instruments (that I've heard from someone who went to church there) is that there was no recorded evidence of instruments being played in the early church in the New Testament, and they model themselves after the early church.

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suninvited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #103
116. since I posted that, I have looked it up
and dancing is not permitted either with Church of Christ members. So, I am guessing that is a plausible reason here.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #103
125. I don't think anyone drove a car to services in the early church either...
but that certainly doesn't prevent those halfway-cunning fools from picking and choosing their "absolutes" and "certainties"
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
94. I grew up Nazarene, and that's pretty strict.
Nazarenes don't dance (well, they're not supposed to--many actually do), so I can understand the dancing thing, but no playing of instruments? I've never heard of both those put together.
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rvablue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
100. I'm smelling some kind of allegory here. So what if she wanted to opt out of a class.
Big deal.
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #100
109. Just another excuse for a DU pile on
That's all.
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Stevenmarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
102. They fear the Hokey Pokey because that's what it's all about.
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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #102
113. LOL
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #102
115. amen, brutha
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
108. Well, it is what it is...
the child will sadly miss out on an aspect of education that many children don't even get the opportunity to have in their classrooms. His education will be less complete because of the parent's choices. Sad, but I respect their right to choose to do so, I suppose.

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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
112. Some churches oppose use of instruments for church songs.
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 11:18 AM by TexasObserver
And oppose dancing in all forms.

Some conservative Church of Christ congregations are that way. The more extreme ones might have members who would take their kids out of music class, particularly if they are singing any Halloween songs, any religion tinged songs for Thanksgiving or Christmas.


It's crazy, but there it is.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
118. Probably a church with anabaptist origins
See: Primitive Baptists

that is their real name - I'm not just being flippant or mean (although if they all met their end off of a rocky cliff, I wouldn't shed a single tear)
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
119. Music and dancing are deeply linked to religion.
Those techniques are used for enlightenment and ectasy in many religious diciplines.

These people are controlling that input into their child's psyche. One could even say they are brainwashing the child by restrictiing access to states of mind that they aren't personally supervising.

I feel sorry for the kids. It's like being kept in a skinner box, or one of those Romanian orphanages. you miss out on the socialization that makes you a part of your surrounding human culture. Of course, that's the point, you are supposed to view your religious prison as 'normal'.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
120. Bottom line for me: Music, like all the arts, is of divine origin
and the need for it and expression of it are essential to the purest and highest side of human nature. Anyone who doesn't understand this is too warped and/or brainwashed to be allowed to run around loose--let alone influence others! This is NOT a benign or harmless belief but the complete opposite.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
121. As a proud Christian myself, I just don't get it, either.
There is NOTHING in the doctrine against playing instruments and dancing, in fact, it's full of verses describing those very activities and in a positive light. It's this kind of bullshit that makes people roll their eyes at Christianity, and it drives me crazy.
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southernyankeebelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
122. Igorance is Bliss
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
123. Oh these crazy Protestants!
:D
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
129. There is no joy in Freeperville
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
131. If we were created by a God,
that God wanted us to sing and dance. You don't make song birds and tell them not to sing, or swans and tell them not to have grace in their movements. People are just silly.
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VPStoltz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
132. Hmmm... I'm no biblical scholar, but isn't there a passage that compells the devoted to
"celebrate with drums and trumpets (I'm paraphrasing)" and I know for a fact that dancing is mention more than once.
That's just plain brainwashing.
I believe certain sects of Muslims or Sikhs don't allow girls to play instruments.
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