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Speaking of the South, Texas BoE wants to remove Neil Armstrong from Science Books

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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:12 AM
Original message
Speaking of the South, Texas BoE wants to remove Neil Armstrong from Science Books
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 12:12 AM by berni_mccoy
There is nothing one can really say to this, but WTF!?!?

http://blogs.chron.com/sciguy/archives/2009/09/neil_arm...

Neil Armstrong isn't worthy of Texas textbooks?

As part of the process a Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills review team composed of parents and teachers has suggested removing Neil Armstrong from a "science strand" in a 5th grade social studies book.

Effectively this would remove the mention of Armstrong has a figure of historical significance from 5th grade textbooks. I asked board spokeswoman Debbie Ratcliffe why this change was made and she explained:

The team said they made this proposal because he was not a scientist. The State Board of Education has not voted for or against that proposal yet. It won't vote on the social studies proposal until January.
...
By the way, Armstrong arguably was a scientist. He received an aeronautical engineering from Purdue University, and a Master of Science degree in aerospace engineering from the University of Southern California. He later was a professor of aerospace engineering at the University of Cincinnati.


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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
1. He's an engineer, not a scientist
If that part of the education standards really does focus on scientists and excludes engineers, then they have a point.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Can an Aeronautical Scientist also perform Engineering tasks? Yes. He has a Masters of Science.
In order to get one of those, you need to write a Scientific Thesis. The expectations of Astronauts were to be scientists first. They were there to be first-hand observers and collect data, not simply a space jockey.
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. Master of Science is merely the name of the degree
Meaningless. I have an MS in math from the University of Houston. Had I gotten my Masters from Indiana University, where I started, it would have been a Master of Arts in Mathematics. A meaningless difference.

Armstrong's education was in engineering, not science.
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. The real question is whether in practice he was a scientist.
Outside of academia college majors aren't the only determinant. If he worked as a scientist and was held out as a scientist, he's a scientist even if his degrees were in Art History.
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. He worked as an engineer and pilot.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. If you think that was his only role, you are sadly uninformed what was required of early astronauts.
He was a test pilot as well. These men had to apply scientific method as to why an aircraft or a spacecraft behaved one way or another and then test those hypothesis. Yes, they performed engineering, but they were scientists as well.
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Many of usl apply scientific reasoning in our working lives
That doesn't make us scientists.

I'm acquainted with the work of the Apollo astronauts.
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. So, what is science?
Research? Theory?
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Research, theory, and the gaining of new fundamental knowledge
You know, tomes have been written on the subject. Is it appropriate or necessary to argue about the definition of science here, and about the distinction between science and technology?

Let's put it this way: There is no such thing as rocket science.
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Actually, none of this is necessary.
I'm back now and I've had a chance to look it up online.

Looks like you might have authored the Wiki article on scientist.
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. No, but I'm glad if it agrees with me. :)
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Engineering IS science.
(It's certainly not theater arts. Nor is it world history.)
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Nope. It's an application of science.
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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Scientist don't consider engineers by default scientists
Although some engineers are performing science and not engineering. In a company with both scientists and engineers (like say an Aerospace company) there is always a health rivalry between the scientists and the engineers. Most scientists are horrified to be called an engineer. And most engineers dislike being called a stupid scientist.


I'm pretty sure being the first guy on the moon trumps any of that though.
:think:

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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. There's a difference between an MA and MS and ME for a reason.
Masters of Science denotes a research oriented degree. Most higher-end Universities have different requirements. I was required to do scientific research for my MS of Computer Science. But I'm also a Software Engineer.

Title's do have distinctions.

In the U.S. you can go strictly applied by getting a Masters of Engineering which would require a project rather than a research thesis. Masters of Arts in the U.S. is reserved for schools that are not scientific.
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Zoeisright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
2. WTH do they have against Neil Armstrong?
Did he vote for a Democrat?
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Monk06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. No he saw UFOs on Apollo 11 instead of Jesus so he's a secular humanist

and unbiblical.
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Zoeisright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Really? That's insane.
What am I saying - of course Texas fundies are insane.
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Monk06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Well poor Neil has been ostracised by everyone Fundies, NASA you name

it. He saw something up there and he ain't backin
down so he's been relegated to UFO crazy land.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
5. hey if neil was still on the moon maybe they would mention him lol nt
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
6. How will textbooks discuss the exploration of space without mentioning him?
Is it the "mankind" reference that they really object to, in his statement "one giant leap for mankind"? Is it the fact that Armstrong saw himself as a representative of humankind across the planet when he took his first steps on the moon instead of trumpeting some puffed up nationalistic slogan that upsets conservatives?
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
10. It's applied science, but it's science nevertheless
Good golly, no wonder this country is falling behind when people deciding what goes into our children's textbooks don't know what science is or think that Genesis is a science text.

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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:07 AM
Response to Original message
11. Yeah. Take 'im the hell outta them books pronto. Ain't no big deal
ridin' some spaceship into the sky and stickin' a flag in the rocks.

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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
20. Armstong took part in
a significant scientific era in our history. His landing on the moon was the beginning of our exploration of space. How is that not about science?

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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
21. Hmm. Is he a registered Democrat?
That would explain it. Always thought he was rather conservative, though. Can't tell about astronauts--
John Glenn was a Dem. And those were different times, before Dems were so villified in the military type services.
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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
25. Correction, from "A" book, not "books" and a "social studies" book, not a science book.
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 12:56 PM by TxRider
Geez at least post a topic that accurately reflects your post..

Now did you stop to think Neil might be in several other textbooks? In 6th grade or higher text books?

Sorry but this doesn't pass the critical thinking filter...

But don't let it stop the Texas Bashing rhetoric...
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