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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:08 AM
Original message
Siegelman blasts DOJ as he faces more years in prison.
I say he should blast away. It is time to rid the DOJ of the Bush holdovers. It is time for Holder to stop worrying about letting all the Republicans out free and clear and investigate this case.

From Huffington Post:

Siegelman Blasts DoJ and Judge In 'Final' Reply Seeking Hearing

Facing a sentence of 20 additional years in prison recommended by Bush Justice Department holdovers, former Alabama Gov. Don Siegelman finally took off the gloves Sept. 21 against his prosecutors and the judge -- and, for once, skipped any mention of Karl Rove.

Citing new evidence since his 2006 convictions, Siegelman's nine-page filing called for a hearing with cross-examination, plus a new trial and new judge.

The arguments responded to a government filing on Aug. 28 that no new evidence has arisen since Siegelman's 2006 corruption convictions to justify a hearing or other relief.

More generally, Siegelman's prosecution remains the dramatic centerpiece of still-unsolved allegations that the Bush administration mounted a nationwide effort to change the country's political leadership by hundreds of disputed prosecutions of Democratic office-holders, candidates and contributors. Siegelman's case is key because no other has produced so many whistleblowers and investigative reporters alleging scandals. But so far no watchdog institutions have put any of the alleged miscreants under oath for public cross-examination.

For the first time, Siegelman unloaded directly on the government's top prosecutors against him in Washington and Alabama by suggesting that they oppose a hearing because they fear evidence of their own crimes for obstructing justice.


This administration has been too complacent about this case. It goes back to the same philosophy of not wanting to investigate the Bush administration...the same mindset.

Top Dems say keep harmony, protect Bush. Don Siegelman says "give me a break."

Cass Sunstein, an adviser to Barack Obama from the University of Chicago Law School, cautioned against prosecuting criminal conduct from the current Administration. Prosecuting government officials risks a "cycle" of criminalizing public service, he argued, and Democrats should avoid replicating retributive efforts like the impeachment of President Clinton--or even the "slight appearance" of it. Update: Sunstein emailed to emphasize that he also said and believes that "egregious crimes should not be ignored."

...""Give me a break," responded former Alabama Governor Don Siegelman, when told about Sunstein's advice during an interview with The Nation. Siegelman took a court-sanctioned trip to tell attendees about his conviction for corruption, currently on appeal, which he says was motivated by a malicious Republican effort to destroy his career. Discussing alleged White House abuse of the Justice Department, which led to Alberto Gonzales' resignation, Siegelman said "what Karl Rove has been accused of doing would make Watergate look like child's play." The former governor also urged activists to press Congress to hold Rove in contempt for defying a House subpoena in a related investigation. His supporters have launched an Internet campaign, ContemptforRove.org, to advance the cause.


Governor Don Siegelman must not be allowed to go back to prison with a Democratic administration in control.

His courage and hope and finances must now be stretched to the limit. It is wrong.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. I tend to agree with the hesitance to "criminalizing public service" but would be way OK with doing
.... Rove. Rove wasn't serving the public.
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
2. knr
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GodlyDemocrat Donating Member (388 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
3. Holder didn't get the memo that Democrats like Siegelman and Blagojevich are higher than the law
Dope!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Don't compare the two men, please.
Siegelman's case is quite different.
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GodlyDemocrat Donating Member (388 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. No it's not, both solicited campaign contributions as a quid pro quo
You can't do that. Holder would have reversed if there was impropeiety in pursuing this case. Siegelman is just trying to garner support using political rhetoric.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. No, Siegelman did not do that.
You seem unaware, do some research.
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GodlyDemocrat Donating Member (388 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. I have.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Siegelman

I'll concede that the sentencing is excessive. However, that testifies to the flawed nature of our federal sentencing guidelines, and not to the integrity of the convictions themselves.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. I won't argue with you. I will back off after suggesting wiki is not the best source.
Looks like 3 have already paid a price for speaking up, so I will not argue.

Cuts down on real discussion though.
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GodlyDemocrat Donating Member (388 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Without naming names, only 1 had paid the price two times for profanity laced tirades
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 02:32 AM by GodlyDemocrat
(On edit, it was not three times, it was two.)

Trust me, it did not add to the discussion.

Your point on Wikipedia is generally a fair one, though it is a good place to get a summary of information on a great variety of issues. I had read the Don Siegelman article and have kept up with it after the allegations of bias came to the forefront in 2008.

Anywho, thank you for respectful discussion even when we may disagree.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Again, respectfully, you don't know what you are talking about.
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 06:32 AM by Hissyspit
And the reason people are cussing at you is because you make yourself suspect in their eyes when post something suspiciously like KRl Rove's talking points. You can alert on others as is your right (I didn't see the contents of the deleted posts), but it does not change the fact that you are sadly underinformed.

As early as over two years ago dozens and dozens of current and former AGs signed petitions that there was no quid pro quo in Siegelman's case.

Start with the Tamara Grimes interview from last week and read all the other links I gave you. To claim the two cases as analagous past the surface (Dem govs) is beyond ludicrous at this point.

Here's some more:

Larisa Alexandrovna: Permanent Republican Majority: Part II

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2007/The_permanent_Republi...


The Paul Minor Case and it's Connection to Siegelman Case: "GOP 'Justice' In Alabama & Mississippi"

http://legalschnauzer.blogspot.com/2008/04/democratic-u...

Ive always thought that they were bad people with evil intent and all that, its playing out now. You cant hardly look at any aspect of the government in the seven years so far thats been run properly. John Grisham, on the Bush Department of Justice (Des Moines Register)


Siegelman Prosecutors Received Notes from Jury

http://www.blogrunner.com/snapshot/D/1/3/error_in_justi... /


Running Elections From The White House

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Permanent Republican Majority - Part V:
Mississippi Justice: Bush US Attorney targeted my wife, supporters and friends

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2008/Diaz_placeholder_0408...

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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
98. Testimony in Ring trial exposes Mississippi and DOJ connection
National Journal OnlineSep 23, 2009 ... National Journal.com Sign In My Account | Free Trial Submit site feedback The Magazine The Hotline CongressDaily 3121 ...
nationaljournal.com/ - 19 hours ago - Cached - Similar
_____________

Anyone interested in the Siegelman case needs to read the daily reports of the testimonies being given in the current trial involving Abramoff aide,Kevin Ring.

The last several days are exclusively centering on Mississippi ,Choctaws,and the DOJ "plant",Coughlin.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
58. Good information Hissy.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #16
87. And, unrespectfully, what a load you're spreading! Do your reserarch first on DU!


Results 1 - 10 of about 6,670 from democraticunderground.com for Siegelman "L. Coyote"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&&q=Siegelman+%22L.+C...

Political Prisoner Don Seigelman: Prosecutorial Obstruction of Justice in the Siegelman Case
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Some on DU know this issue better than I do, given Google
only turned up 6,670 hits with L. Coyote & Siegelman on DU :rofl:
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
33. And EXACTLY how long have you been following Siegelman's case?
Inquiring minds wants to know.

I suspect you know NOTHING of this case. Zero. Nil. Naught. Zip.

So I'd suggest that you disseminate old posts discussing Siegelman's case before you open your big fat mouth.

Do NOT assume anything until you read the facts.

Siegelman is being persecuted by Rove's minions, and Holder is doing absolutely NOTHING about it. All he has to do is sign a piece of paper saying that Siegelman's case is to be dropped by the prosecutors and no further prosecution is warranted. Then order the arrest of one Karl "Not So Christian" Rove for political persecution, and illegal influence and tampering, obstruction of justice, and charges a 100,000 miles long.

Hawkeye-X
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GodlyDemocrat Donating Member (388 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. If you would have actually read my post instead of posting flamebait personal attacks
You would have found the answer.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #42
54. You call that a personal attack?
--imm :shrug:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #42
79. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. A Panel About Rove and Bush's Selective Political Prosecution: THERE WAS NO CRIME
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 06:38 AM by Hissyspit
NO ONE besides Blagodjevich is arguing that he was selectively politically prosecuted. PLENTY of people with real knowledge and integrity are arguing that Siegelman was selectively politically prosecuted.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Hissyspit/692...

The Legal Basis For Siegelman's Appeal To The Supreme Court:

How the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals Ruling in the Siegelman Case Puts Every Elected Official at Risk

The decision of the Eleventh Circuit panel creates serious dangers for every office holder, candidate and campaign contributor. It leaves every such person at risk that he or she will prosecuted for doing things that, up until now, were recognized as perfectly legal. It places awesome discretion in the hands of prosecutors, to seek convictions based not on what people do or say, but instead based in the end on those prosecutors' inferences about whether the official, candidate, or contributor had an inappropriate unspoken state of mind. Under this decision, if a prosecutor believes that there was an unspoken connection between a campaign or issue-advocacy contribution and an official action that benefits the contributor, there is a prosecutable crime; and if the jury believes that too, then a prison sentence follows. If the 11th Circuit decision stays on the books, every official who raises contributions, and everyone who is considering whether to contribute, will feel the chilling thought that an exercise of their First Amendment rights might be turned, in the eyes of a cynical prosecutor, into a crime.

The law in this area, as it had existed up until the 11th Circuit decision, was designed for the specific purpose of avoiding that chilling effect, avoiding undue prosecutorial discretion, and creating a bright line as to what is a crime and what is not, in the raising of campaign funds. This was what the Supreme Court accomplished in McCormick v. United States, 500 U.S. 257, 111 S. Ct. 1807 (1991). There, the Supreme court recognized the realities that we all know to be true: that fundraising is a practical necessity in our democracy, and that contributors often hope that the officials to whom they contribute will then take some actions that the contributors favor. If that in itself were a crime, then every politician in the nation would be a criminal, and every contributor would be accomplice. So there must be some reliable way of differentiating the routine from the criminal.

The Supreme Court laid down the bright line in McCormick, and it was based fundamentally on the rule that a potential inference that there was an unspoken connection between contribution and official action is not enough to make a crime. Instead, said the Supreme Court, there is a crime "only if the payments are made in return for an explicit promise or undertaking by the official to perform or not to perform an official act. In such situations, the official asserts that his official conduct will be controlled by the terms of the promise or undertaking." The "explicit promise or undertaking" in exchange for the contribution - in other words, the explicit linking of the two by the official, or (as the Supreme Court also called it) an "explicit quid pro quo" - is what makes the crime.

Where officials line their personal pockets, they can be convicted of some crimes even without proof of an explicit quid pro quo. But when the purported pay-off is a campaign contribution, the law requires proof of an explicit agreement connecting the contribution and official action. "This formulation," said the Supreme Court, "defines the forbidden zone of conduct with sufficient clarity;" it allows officials to know the line between politics and crime, and allows them to know that they will be safe if they do not cross it.

But the 11th Circuit panel decision has erased the bright line that the Supreme Court drew, and has created uncertainty where the Supreme Court had tried to bring clarity. According to the 11th Circuit when the Supreme Court required proof of an "explicit quid pro quo," of an "explicit promise or undertaking" by which the official "asserts" that he will act in exchange for this contribution, this did not mean that the official "asserts" that has to say any such thing at all. It is enough, in the eyes of the 11th Circuit panel, if a jury can infer that there was an unspoken connection between the contribution and a conclusion by declaring that in this context the word "explicit" does not really mean "express," and does not mean that the quid pro quo must actually be overtly communicated at all. The decision allows a conviction based on prosecutors', and jurors' inferences about unspoken states of mind supposedly linking official action and campaign contributions.

Other federal appellate courts, by contrast, have recognized that McCormick means Exactly what it says. They have recognized that an "explicit quid pro quo" really does have to be "explicit" in order to constitute a crime, and that in this context "explicit" means "express," just as it always does. See, e.g., United States v. Ganim, 510 F.3d 134, 142 (2nd Cir. 2007) ("proof of an express promise is necessary when the payments are made in the form of campaign contributions"); United States v. Kincaid-Chauncey, 556 F.3d 923, 937 (9th Cir. 2009) (same).

Until the 11th Circuit panel decision is overruled, the law is now dangerously unclear. Now, no official, candidate, or contributor can feel confident in his or her exercise of his or her legal (and constitutional) right to raise or contribute funds. Now, whenever a cynical prosecutor comes to believe that there was an unspoken exchange - an implicit linkage between a campaign contribution and a legislative vote, or an appointment to a paid or unpaid governmental position, or any other sort of official action - indictment may follow. It is extremely important that the law should be clarified and uniform all over the country on these important questions, and that the true McCormick standard should continue to apply. This is important not only to achieving justice in this one case, but for the sake of all who are involved in elections and democracy.

54 state attorneys general, both Republicans and Democrats, told the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals: "Such an interpretation puts at risk every politician who accepts a campaign contribution ... criminalizing activities that fall short of an explicit quid pro quo agreement, can only lead to an impermissible chilling effect on the First Amendment right to contribute to political campaigns." (See page 10 Brief of Amici Curiae of Former Attorneys General in Support of Appellant Don Eugene Siegelman Urging Reversal.)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #18
31. Thanks for all your links. I was going to search but it was too late last night
and I decided not to bother. I know you have been right on top of this issue.

Good links and good posts...thanks for that.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #18
91. Thanks for injecting a large dose of reason here.
And this is but the tip of the iceberg in Siegelman's defense.

Siegelman's main problem is just how slick the criminals in public service are!
And the fact that Obama and Holder seem to not want to change that!!!!
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #10
23. Apparently you didn't read the whole wiki entry very carefully.
Scroll down and read the whole thing.
It truly makes the case for a political hit job.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
39. That wiki entry isn't even accurate. He should never have been brought to trial
let alone convicted let alone sentenced.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
53. The convictions have no integrity.
Your stance is very curious considering that you call yourself a Democrat.
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GodlyDemocrat Donating Member (388 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #53
71. Do you call Holder and Obama Democrats?
Because my position is the same as theirs. Perhaps you mistake the Democratic Party for the Corruption without Consequences Party.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #71
83. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #71
86. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
82. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
95. Ok, where does it say that he
Edited on Wed Sep-23-09 06:52 PM by Time for change
"solicited campaign contributions as a quid pro quo"?

Is what you mean to say that he was convicted of bribery? Do you believe that convictions can be fraudulent?

There is no evidence that Siegelman accepted a bribe.
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
97. My guess is the machine is still in place, or the Dems lack a sack.
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #10
104. If I am not mistaken,
Siegleman was sent to prison for appointing a donor to an
unpaid, humanitarian position. This is "quid pro
quo?" The position this donor was appointed to, wasn't a
position that would even allow him to be bribed to influence
the choosing of vendors. I really do not recall al of the
minutiae, but I asked myself those questions when I read
about the case. Mainly, I wanted to make sure that this donor
couldn't be financially enriched due to his appointment to an
unpaid position.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. No, Siegelman didn't.
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 06:24 AM by Hissyspit
That's the whole point. You don't know what you are talking about. The Siegelman case is part of the DoJ attornies scandal and Rove's attempt at a permanent Republican majority. Please do some REAL research:


Larisa Aleaxandrovna at HuffPost: The Permanent Republican Majority, Part 1

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/larisa-alexandrovna/the-p...


Larisa Alexandrovna on Rove's Role In the Political Prosecution of Gov. Siegelman (Good background interview, that is NOT wikipedia crap)

http://blog.buzzflash.com/interviews/111


Andrew Krieg On DoJ Whistleblower Tamara Grimes

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Hissyspit/704...


91 Ex-Attorneys General Support Siegelman Appeal to Supreme Court

http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/article/20090911/NE...


60 Minutes: Siegelman - What Next?

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=3996870n%3Fsourc...


The above is just for STARTERS. The two cases are nothing like each other except that they involve Democrat governors.

More on the misconduct in the trial is available at Harper's Magazine on line but the server seems to be down. Google Scott Horton.


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Kingofalldems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
109. kick
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. bullshit
What Siegelman got busted for is what politicians have been doing for centuries. It's called Patronage and it's not illegal. Did bu$h get busted for giving all those Big Oil folk jobs? Or for sending his supporters out as Diplomats?

:eyes:


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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. There was no quid pro quo.
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 06:50 AM by Hissyspit
There was however jury tampering, a corrupt judge, selective political prosecution, a house burned down, an office broken into.
Break-ins plague targets of US Attorneys

Larisa Alexandrovna, Muriel Kane and Lindsay Beyerstein

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Breakins_plague_Justice_D...


Gee, Holder can't POSSIBLY be wrong about something?

That's quite naive.

Holder's Former Law Firm Brags About Its GOP Ties

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
57. Wow. You really need to site a source for that opinion. I have
not read that one and hopefully not likely too!
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
69. That's ANOTHER goddamn lie. There was no quid pro quo.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
24. Correct. Siegelman has been convicted by a jury, Blagojevich has not (as least not yet).
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. Um, you mean the totally corrupted selective political prosecution jury trial?
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 09:59 AM by Hissyspit
Positing Blagojevich and Siegelman as equivalent situations is ignorant.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. The issues you have raised have yet to be proven in court
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 01:43 PM by Freddie Stubbs
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #37
59. I believe that is the purpose of the appeal, and I believe it is being
blocked.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
78. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #24
92. Galileo was convicted.
Each era has its heresey and its form of burning heretics.

Under the Bush Junta, Heresy is opposing Big Oil.

Alabama Court Bows to ExxonMobil = Siegelman: ExxonMobil committed fraud and underpaid
Alabama Court Bows to ExxonMobil
by Scott Horton - November 2007

ExxonMobils Alabama Paydirt

Back in 1904, Ida Tarbell published what ultimately was to be seen as the seminal work of the muckrakers, The History of Standard Oil. ....

.... Exxon and Mobil, merged at the close of 1999. The resulting behemoth, ExxonMobil, is the largest publicly traded integrated petroleum and natural gas company in the world. It is also the worlds largest petroleum and natural gas company by revenue, with revenues of $377.6 billion in fiscal year 2006.

The State of Alabama believes that it was victimized by ExxonMobil. According to the states complaint launched by the Administration of Governor Don Siegelman, ExxonMobil committed fraud and underpaid the state in a contract dispute over natural gas pumped from Mobile Bay. Alabama won that litigation, and a jury awarded the state a judgment against ExxonMobil of roughly $3.6 billion. Not chump change, even for ExxonMobil. And for Alabama, an immense sum of money (roughly a third of the states annual budget).

But ExxonMobil appealed, secured a stay, and ultimately took the matter to the Alabama Supreme Court. Thursday, the states High Court handed down its decision, by a vote of 8-1. The Court sided with ExxonMobil and against Alabama. ..........
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #92
107. Galileo was guilty
He was charged with heresy, as he was espousing a view which was in contradiction to Church doctrine. He was later absolved when the Church changed its doctrine.

For the analogy to be apt, you would be conceding that that Mr. Siegelman is guilty, but that someday the government may decide to end its prohibition on bribery and mail fraud.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #107
108. The analogy is not guilt, it is state prosecution for a heresy!
When the State prosecutes "heretics" the concept of guilt is rather meaningless since the crime is in the mind of the accusor.

Gov. Siegelman's heresy was not joining the criminals and not allowing Big Oil to rip off his state!

His "burning at the stake" (or his "house arrest" since you insist on perfect analogy) was having his election stolen and, when he again sought re-election, persecution by criminal prosecution and the Big House.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
100. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Deleted message
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Merlot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. They're either higher than kites, or above the law
not that either of them have anything in common besides being democrats.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
20. The two cases you mention don't relate to each other.
The Siegelman case involves lawyers from across the country gathering to point to the injustice done to him. Blagovich... not so much, not like that at all.

The list of differences is long and stunning.

If anyone seems above the law here, it is the Republicans in the form of prosecutors, governors, and Bush administrators like suddenly-can't-recall-much Rove. How many Democrats do you know that avoid subpoenas?

Many in this country have lost their wealth, housing, retirements, and that immense wealth is now in the hands of a few top Republican supporters. Think about that, unless you are one of those top billionaires.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
22. You obviously are uninformed on the Siegelman case, so you might want to study up
before embarrassing yourself! :eyes:
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
68. That's a goddamn lie. Siegelman did no such thing.
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DUlover2909 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
75. Whatever.
:puke:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
76. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
96. Get your facts right....
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
11. There has to be a lot of power and corruption holding this thing in place . . . like cement . . .!!!
We have to break this up --

How in the hell can Obama leave Bush's people in place -- !!!



:eyes:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
12. If Siegelman is allowed to go back to prison
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 01:47 AM by madfloridian
as Karl Rove gets adored by the media and gets to debate with Democrats...

And as the score started out with Holder freeing Ted Stevens.

Republicans 4 Democrats 0. Two Alaskan Republicans released from prison.

The Obama Justice Department already has dismissed cases or appeals against Stevens and alleged Republican phone jammer James Tobin. Kohring and Kott make four Republicans who have received favorable treatment since Obama took office in January. Meanwhile, Democrats such as Don Siegelman in Alabama and Paul Minor in Mississippi have received no known reviews of their cases.

If you are keeping score at home, it's now Republicans 4, Democrats 0 under the Obama DOJ.


Then it will make many of us feel that justice was not served for political reasons.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #12
25. President Obama could pardon him or commute the sentence
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Or Holder could do the right thing.
Since Obama has not cleaned up the DoJ, what makes you think a pardon or commutation would be forthcoming? You are factually correct, but why should it have to come down to that? Stevens didn't have to wait for a pardon?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
41. Perhaps Holder and Obama do not believe there was any proctorial abuse in this case
How else would you explain their actions?
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #41
62. did this case involve some sort of test supervision, or a doctor spectializing in a certain
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 05:38 PM by Gabi Hayes
part of the anatomoy with which you seem to be much more familiar than the English language????

gives your opinion lots of cred.....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #41
80. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
26. It will add to our shame. nt
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Kingofalldems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
52. But no, he was convicted by a jury. And Karl would never do anything
dishonest. :sarcasm:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
27. Deleted message
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tabbycat31 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
29. this calls for a Presidential pardon from Obama
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
32. IMO this shows the power of Karl Rove and his years of research on Democrats
and other opponents. I think they are tippytoeing carefully because they fear him.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
34. K&R
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
35. Please Attorney General Holder. Do the right thing and get Sigelman out of legal jeopardy
for doing what his Republican predecessor did several times with no penalty whatsoever.
This is local corruption. Stop it like you stopped the Steven's case.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
36. 91 Former Attorneys General Claim Siegelman Didn't Break the Law
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 11:43 AM by madfloridian
http://www.abc3340.com/news/stories/0909/658479.html

"Montgomery - Ninety-one former attorneys general from U.S. states and territories asked the U.S. Supreme Court Friday to hear former Alabama Gov. Don Siegelman's appeal of his federal bribery conviction, claiming it raises important issues on political speech.

The bipartisan group filed a brief arguing that it wasn't against the law for Siegelman to name former HealthSouth CEO Richard Scrushy to a powerful hospital regulatory board after Scrushy arranged donations to Siegelman's campaign for a state lottery.

If Siegelman's conviction stands, the group argues it could have a paralyzing effect on the political process, "that largely depends upon private contributions and the liberty of constituents to contribute to political campaigns without fear of criminal liability."

"This case concerns the criminalization of conduct protected by the First Amendment - the giving and receiving of campaign contributions," the brief said."
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
38. When Holder is finished turning loose every Republican crook in the country,
then he might have time to get around to this case.

Maybe.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. Thank you for saying this.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. His handling of the Siegelman case truly is a disgrace. n/t
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
40. K&R nt
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
43. Kicked and recommended.
Thanks for the thread, madfloridian.
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
44. It is time to hold Obama to keeping his promises....
and for Congress to do their job..and most of all..for the Justice Department to do their frikkin job and investigate these criminals!!!
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snort Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
45. Siegelman
ought to scoot, as in vamoose.
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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
46. This was about keeping gambling out of Alabama
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 02:17 PM by Selena Harris
McCain Withheld Controversial Abramoff EmailFeb 25, 2008 ... On the stump, Sen. John McCain often cites his work tackling the excesses of disgraced lobbyist Jack Abramoff as evidence of his sturdy ...
www.huffingtonpost.com/.../mccain-withheld-controver_n_... - Cached - Similar

McCain Withheld Controversial Abramoff Email - Democratic UndergroundFeb 26, 2008 ... McCain Withheld Controversial Abramoff Email Posted by Michael Link on February 25, 2008 at 06:04 PM Breaking at the Huffington Post: ...
www.democraticunderground.com/.../duboard.php?az...all.... - Cached - Similar

McCain and Team Have Many Ties to Gambling ...‎
Jack Abramoff: John McCain's other Lobbyist ...‎
HORTON on mccain, Abramoff and the Riley ...‎
McCain's Abramoff investigation was 'pure ...‎

More results from democraticunderground.com
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. Ralph Reed's beedy little eyes sparkle at the sight of Abramoff money...
...and he sings, "Hallelujah! Pass the loot!"

Freed from Jail, Fmr. Alabama Governor Don Siegelman Accuses Karl Rove of Orchestrating Political Witch Hunt

PS: A most hearty welcome to DU, Selena Harris!
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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #51
65. Thank you
Octafish, you are one of the "Ascended Masters" here at DU,imho.

I always look for your comments,because I know I'll be better informed AFTER I read them than I was BEFORE I read them.
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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #51
66. Abramoff Aide on trial
Incidentally, Kevin Ring,one of Abramoff's cronies- an aide to Ashcroft-- is presently on trial.

The trial began last week,and thousands of documents have been provided in discovery-yet nary a word in the media.

The National Journal website is doing coverage,however.Coincidentally enough,many of the Congressman listed in Ring's court exhibits are the SAME politicians named in Sibel Edmonds recent deposition.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
49. KNR (nt)
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
50. Bush and Gonzo left a giant stay-behind network at Justice.
The sooner they are identified, fired and labeled as traitors, the sooner ours will again be a nation of law.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #50
81. Pres Obama doesn't seem to be in a hurry to clean that mess up. nt
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #50
84. I agree. I wish they would get moving.
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BolivarianHero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
55. If Obama's administration will not protect Siegelman from right-wing persecution...
Why do you feel that you're safe?
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
56. Didn't Obama just say that bush and cia was not above the law
in the torture investigation going forward. Why is this case being shut down? This needs to be opened up. This is not justice.
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GodlyDemocrat Donating Member (388 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #56
72. Because neither is Siegelman above the law
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #72
88. IGNORE.
Bye.............
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GodlyDemocrat Donating Member (388 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #88
103. Same to you buddy
Congrats, you're the first person I'm putting on my ignore list.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
60. That's not even a funny statement. It just isn't funny at all.
"egregious crimes should not be ignored"


All we know about are crimes against humanity, torture, murder, obstruction of justice, fraud...


nothing egregious here, I suppose


:banghead:
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
61. Cass Sunstein is a jerk
He and his ilk are the reason why we have two systems of justice in this country, one for the powerful and one for the voiceless.

He needs to go as do all who do not believe in justice and this administration, which had no problem letting GOP Sen. Stevens off the hook, needs to start demonstrating that we supported was not just more of the same kind of justice we had under Republicans iow 'IOKIYAR.

What was his rationale for the Stevens' case? The main difference I see (tainted trial in both cases) is that Stevens is a Republican and Siegelman is Democrat.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
63. Since Sunstein is interested in not risking a "cycle" of criminalizing public service"
why don't we let him volunteer to pull the TWENTY FUCKING YEAR PRISON SENTENCE that he apparently feels Don Siegelman should pull for being railroaded.

With Democrats like Sunstein who needs Bush holdovers!!??

More bipartisanship and it makes me want to puke.

Recommend.
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DeeDeeNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. YES
Perfectly stated!
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
64. The simple amswer...if crimes were committed, they should
be prosecuted. Using a political office to persecute others is a crime, plain and simple. The perpetrators, (read bushites), should be held accountable. There is no excuse and full investigation should be authorized. We should NOT allow such corruption, regardless of party; this happens to be R's that would be investigated, if D's did the same thing, I'd be calling for their heads as well. We are supposedly a "NAtion of Law", let's show the world that we truly are.

No matter how high an investigation would go, it should proceed, and those who did what they did held accountable...how else could we address the problem, hide it, that's worse than anything other option.

:patriot:
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
70. I am not going to argue with anyone who says Siegelman got a fair trial
because such an allegation is so far off base as to be worth contacting the monitors. Rove is close friends with the AG's husband; the judge had or has multi-million dollar contracts with the US government, the Attorneys-General of Alabama (through one of their husbands) were heard conspiring against Siegelman, there was jury tampering of sorts, Governor Siegelman won re-election but after a Gore/Florida type voter fraud debacle was found to have lost the next day, The list goes on and on. I am not going to bother to post links to these assertions because they have been common knowledge for months; the reports are legion and easy to locate and document unless your news source is FAUX NEWS. Do your homework. So many Attorneys-General, past and present, and judges have sent letters insisting on Holder's investigating the fraudulent trial perpetrated against Governor Siegelman that for Holder not to follow through is beyond belief and conscience. I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but there has to be some truly venal reason. for this obvious omission of justice on Holder's part. Someone in the WH is paid off; the Rovians have something on Obama from their wiretappings; Obama and his family are being threatened; Obama is secretly a GOPer. I do NOT know what it is, but they are now culpable for sending this man back to prison now if they do nothing because the proof of mistreatment and malfeasance of justice is all there. It is a sidebar to not investigating war crimes, which by treaty obligations we, the USA, are required to do.
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
73. K&R for Don Siegelman. nt
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
77. Permitting Governor Siegelman to return to prison
may be the only thing that would cause me to be anti-Prez O. I went to law school to prevent such things from happening, and I just couldn't stand it.
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Iwillnevergiveup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
85. I was wondering why
Don Siegelman has been going through torure all this time while watching Tom DeLay dancing with a star. Now THAT'S a criminal.

:mad:
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #85
90. Nothing to wonder about. Who controls Justice in the USA?
Obviously, Bush's USAs!

I'm still wwaiting to hear back from the Bush appointees about evidence I have offered them.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
89. Criminals IN public service vs. "criminalizing public service"
The way to avoid the criminalization of public service is to procesute ciminals IN public service!!!

D'oh! :rofl: Wake UP Holder and Obama. Become leaders, not wimps!!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
93. Somewhere in this mess, I missed this about Tamarah Grimes, the whistleblower.
I am sure it has been covered here at DU, but I somehow missed the fact that she was fired in June.

http://estrinlegaled.typepad.com/my_weblog/2009/09/doj-...

"In July 2007, Grimes stepped forward to allege that her colleagues had violated basic legal protections to ensure a fair trial. She claimed, for example, that prosecutors had communicated with jurors. Also, she said pro-conviction jurors had privately strategized by email outside the jury room to obtain guilty verdicts -- all without required notification to the defense. Moreover, she complained of sexually offensive comments by colleagues, particularly in an off-site prosecutors office that was entirely devoted to what they called The Big Case.

Even though she used federally authorized procedures for such complaints, stepping forward turned her career dream into a nightmare. What follows is her story, including a year of federal threats to prosecute her on what she calls false claims that she taped a colleague.

"I have always considered myself to be a moderate Republican, she said. I believe in the U.S. Constitution, and that what happened in Montgomery with the Siegelman/Scrushy prosecution is a travesty of justice."

June 1, 2009, she wrote the Obama administrations Attorney General Eric Holder outlining misconduct allegations and asking for his help. But DoJ fired her seven days later for failure to retain a security clearance which DoJ itself had removed in 2008. At the same time, she was regarded elsewhere as one of the nations leading whistleblowers for shedding light on the Siegelman conviction, which has become the most controversial criminal prosecution of the entire Bush administration.

I did nothing to justify termination, she told KNOW. I was a loyal, exemplary employee with no discipline problems and many performance-based awards prior to my complaints.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
94. Dammit - when is the Obama administration going to do something about this?
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
99. thanks for posting - this is outrageous
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XXXMADAM Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
101. kick
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lobodons Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
102. NOTE TO OBAMA:
PARDON!!!!!!
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EagleViewDC Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #102
105. Author Thanks & Comment on Siegelman Replies
As author of the Siegelman article, I want to thank everyone
for such a great discussion -- far exceeding that anywhere
else. A few more thoughts: Siegelman and his co-defendant
deserve a hearing with right to cross-examine witnesses and a
new judge. That would then mean a new trial. Then let the
chips fall where they may. But there's almost no chance that
Siegelman and his co-defendant would be convicted again in a
fair trial in my view. So the remedy is obvious.  By
contrast, a pardon would be a controversial political
intervention in the justice system, and also unfair to
Siegelman's co-defendant (who is serving a 7-year term).
Those seeking more documentation about any of the underlying
scandals can find much of it on my site (www.eagleviewdc.com)
although the continuing revelations now make a site a bit out
of date. Thanks again for this great discussion on Democratic
Underground! Please consider prompting it elsewhere to alert
new audiences, including the comments section of local
newspapers that largely ignore the story of selective
prosecutions like Siegelman and the parallels in other cases
around the U.S. I'll be among those documenting the other
cases in future reports shortly about the impact of the
"loyal Bushies" on lives and families around the
U.S. As Paul Krugman wrote when the U.S. attorney scandal
broke in early 2007, the issue isn't about nine mid-term
firings -- but about what the other 84 were doing to keep
their jobs.   
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Kingofalldems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #105
106. Good luck to you! Keep up the good work
Edited on Thu Sep-24-09 09:20 AM by Kingofalldems
True Democrats back you 100%. Only republicans want the Governor put back in jail. Unfortunately you can read at least one repub posting on this thread, and this site is supposed to be for Democrats only.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #105
110. Thanks for your work on this.
Many here at DU have tried to keep a spotlight on it. I was glad to read that 91 former attorneys general were speaking out now.

It stuns me how this has been ignored by the AG.

Welcome to DU.
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earcandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
111. It is hard for me to believe this is unresolved when Stevens from Alaska was pardoned.
Holder. what is holding you?
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