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Rebuttal To False Rape Post: Why Is It That Rape Is Treated As A Matter of Opinion

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shondradawson Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:32 PM
Original message
Rebuttal To False Rape Post: Why Is It That Rape Is Treated As A Matter of Opinion
rather than a crime?

It is not a coincidence that the false accusations of rape make headlines far more than the actual convictions of rape. In fact, charges of rape actually leading to conviction are rare, and this fact has been true for centuries. I should like to think in the 21st century that we all have some fair understanding of the history of Westurn culture, particularly the inhumane treatment of women and the legal statutes that sanctioned and continue to sanction it.

Whether you are a man or a woman...how can anyone take a charge of rape with an insouciant grin and a cynical shrug? "Oh, you know women...heh, heh, heh..." or "Oh, you know men, tsk, tsk, tsk." I tire of the chuckle, the giggle, the sheepish comments when you address both men and women about sexuality. At what age can you speak about sex without chuckling, giggling, raising your eyebrows or flipping your hair? At what point can the issues of sexual pathology be discussed without latent resentment against the opposite sex seeping through every word?

I tire of this ongoing mockery of controversy...is a home is burglarized, the owner is not asked to prove she owns the home, is not asked to prove she invited the burglar in, is not asked to prove what was stolen was there before. The defendant is asked to prove he was not there, he is not in possession of the alleged stolen property. In short...why is the man never asked to prove he didn't rape the woman? He is only asked to prove the sex was consensual: easy enough to establish, if you simply don't believe her...

This is the gist of many rape cases that end in acquittal. Again, the albeit few convictions don't make the headlines, because they don't make good justifications to maintain the status quo. The convictions force the public to confront gender/sexual attitudes that some men refuse to change and we can't make them. Other men call them bastards, jerks, assholes, etc. Women call them rapists, molesters, stalkers, wife-beaters, but only in secret. If women call those names aloud, other men call the bastards, jerks, and assholes...victims. Why?

I have heard an attorney friend of mine express his great disgust at the males on a jury enjoying a taped rape enough to think the woman subjected must have enjoyed it, too. I understand that women on a jury can judge that a woman wasn't "pretty enough" for a man to want to rape her.

The woman changed her story. I wonder how many posters are aware that when a woman's case looks like (too often) it won't win, the woman "changes her mind," to avoid being sent to jail for "false accusations." Often, the tapes are not confiscated by the police at the time of the charge: many times, they are produced by the defense attorney after they have been in the possession of the accused, long enough to "cut and edit." Consider this: the victim can change her story...but not because she was lying.

If alcohol is involved, even if the woman wasn't drinking, a rape trial ends in acquittal because the man was...

If a rape victim is in any way acquainted with the accused, the rape trial ends in acquittal...

If a rape victim is in any way sexually attractive (it is common for prosecuting attorneys to advise their clients not to wear any makeup or fancy hairstyle, to modulate their vocal tones, and to not appear "approachable"), the rape trial ends in acquittal...

There was a case of a blind woman raped whose trial ended in acquittal because, being blind, the judge failed to comprehend how she could "see" she was being raped...

Case in point: there are women here who have never accused a man of rape. There are men here who have never been accused of rape. This is true for most respective women and men, yet sexual relations are had between men and women every day. So it stands for the women who cry rape and the men accused of it...it stands to show something went very wrong. Now to begin to establish whether or no the wrong was against the law...and who the real victim is.

It does no one any favors to point out how many dishonest women there are and how many honorable men there are when confronting the crime of rape. Nor is it to anyone's benefit to point out how many sexually liberated women there are and how many sexually repressed men there are when confronting the crime of rape. What is the point of such dialogue? In a court of law, what you think or how you feel or choose to believe about women and/or men is irrelevant...

Though it has been considered as much, rape is a crime and not a matter of opinion.












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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R My sister!
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. Amen!
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. Actually, Ma'am, Statistics Do Not Bear All This Out Very Well
In 2007, a little less than 80,000 rapes were reported. Forty percent of cases resulted in arrest. About ninety percent of trials ended in conviction. The rate of arrest is lower than that for murder, about sixty percent, but above that for robbery, which runs about twenty-five percent. It is certainly true that not all rapes are reported, but that is true for other crimes as well: murder is about the only crime that comes close 'fully reported'. It is simply not true that convictions for rape are rare, on these numbers.
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shondradawson Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Your statistics only establish that though ninety percent of trials ended in conviction...
less than half resulted in arrest.

It is fair enough that you admitted that "it is certainly true that not all rapes are reported." As for the year of 2007, perhaps you may find the time to research the statistics for the years before...the many years before 2007.

It is also fair enough for me to state that the increase of convictions of rape in recent years have increased in accordance to the level of violence against women, which is reaching pandemic levels in our society, making it more difficult for trials in recent years to end in acquittal. It is difficult to prove why a woman would consent to lacerations, broken bones, and permanent physical damage...



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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. What did you write?
"Your statistics only establish that though ninety percent of trial ended in conviction ... less than half resulted in arrest."

This makes absolutely no sense.

How can you have a conviction without an arrest?

Your query as to why men shouldn't be required to prove that they didn't rape someone flies in the face of our Constitutionally-mandated presumption of innocence. The burden of proof is always on the accuser, be it the State or an individual.

Yes, rape is hard to prove, especially when the parties know each other, but you must keep in mind that it is not a sexual crime, but a crime of violence. That it involves intercourse or sexual contact of some kind only serves to underscore the complications that arise in a crime combining the two.

We as a culture have gotten a whole lot better at prosecuting these cases, and women today are treated with a world's difference of respect, as well as being protected by the press and the judicial system. Things have improved, but rape, by its very nature, has always been a very, very difficult crime to prove.

But your notion, which was never really clarified in your OP, that it is an opinion is interesting, as a starting point. Still, the complications attached to such a situation are huge.

This latest debacle at Hofstra once again makes it difficult for real victims................
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abumbyanyothername Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. One thing that contributes to the situation at Hofstra
and is a problem for rape cases generally is the intense amount of shame heaped on women for expressing their sexuality at all.

We would have a much healthier society if consenting adults were allowed to express their sexuality without fear of social disapproval.

And, in my view, it starts with parents. As a father, I was very deliberate with my daughter to explain her sexuality in terms of her choices and their potential consequences. I also tried to explain to her that her mother's (we were divorced) behavior and responses were being triggered and amplified by potential consequences.

She seems to be doing OK at 25.
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Rape is not about sex -
it's a crime of violence. That people's attitudes about sex are screwed up is not news, nor is it limited to rape cases. As I mentioned, we have made wonderful strides in terms of protecting women who go through this experience. It would, of course, benefit our society in every way if we were more together about sexuality.

It would, first thing, put the fundies out of business. I'm convinced that much of they're about is sexual repression and the resultant anger.

We all did the best we could with our kids, and we hope they all turn out well. What we cannot protect them from is the assault they might face - in every sense of the word - from people whose parents didn't do quite as comprehensive a job as we did....................
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abumbyanyothername Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. But this false charge of rape is
about shame around sex.
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. We don't know that -
we have no information on why she made that charge. None whatsoever.

I'll be really interested to know the whole story................................
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shondradawson Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. You cannot have a conviction without an arrest....
and less than half the reports resulted in arrest.

As for the Constitutionally-mandated presumption of innocence, the courts did not allow the sexual history of women to be admitted into court under that presumption. True, the burden of proof is always on the accuser: but throughout the history of this country up to present day, if the accuser is a second class citizen or a minority, the burden of proof can be irrefutable, and still weigh nothing.

My post only asks you and other DU posters to consider that the history of the Constitution and it subsequent State laws were not enacted with women's best interests and welfare in mind. Justice (from law enforcement to the legal system) for many years in this country was and is still not blind, but came from a sharp and merciless point of view that abandoned many women who needed it most.

I am under no illusion women are inherently virtuous: that is a myth. But I am also under no illusion that men who indulge themselves with inhumane treatment of women are unaware that they will most likely "walk away" from it.

What disturbs me about the crime of rape(indeed, a crime of violence), is how many perpetrators are oblivious to the fact that they have, in fact, committed a crime, or even if aware, confident that they will suffer no consequences. Why is that? To add insult to injury, the protest against women who are found to be false in their accusations raise far more attention and concern than the women who are found to be true in their accusations. Why is that?
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abumbyanyothername Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. I have a problem straight away with your
worldview in which rapists are cold calculators.

By the way, I agree that a woman's sexual history should be irrelevant to rape charges, and although I don't practice criminal law if I recall correctly from law school, in many (most? all?) states it is barred as evidence absent some special showing of relevance (e.g., victim has a history of false accusations, etc.).

Rape is an outrage. The outrage is exacerbated by the insensitivity of male dominated enforcement systems. I disagree with your premise that the underlying crime is met with less outrage than the false reporting.

I think the real issue here is the propagation of a social more where the consensual expression of sexuality by adults is not entirely a matter of free exchange between the involved parties. The male is to some extent socially lauded for his conquest while the female is to some extent disdained for her dalliance.

This more creates incentives for false reporting which in turn creates incentives to raise the defense of false reporting. The more also contributes to situations where one party mistakenly believes the act is consensual when in fact it is not. If women were fully free to express their sexuality, and if men believed that women were fully free to express their sexuality, there would be no confusion about "she really wanted it" and there would be no possibility of any such confusion.

No would simply mean I don't want to and everyone would be able to clearly understand that.
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shondradawson Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. I do not have a "worldview" in which rapists are cold calculators. ..
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 11:57 PM by shondradawson
nor is such a view stated in my reply. I did mention such a mentality found among rapists disturbing, as I may safely presume we all can.


"I think the real issue here is the propagation of a social more where the consensual expression of sexuality by adults is not entirely a matter of free exchange between the involved parties. The male is to some extent socially lauded for his conquest while the female is to some extent disdained for her dalliance."

Having stated this, how can you disagree with my premise that "the underlying crime is met with less outrage than the false reporting," when you also state that the outrage of rape "is exacerbated by the insensitivity of male dominated enforcement systems?"

I do not believe from reading your post that you have a problem with my premise at all...I believe you have a problem with the crime of rape and the lack of justice shown in instances of it.

So do I...so do all who have taken the time to post here about it.

Thank you for your time...


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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
40. That subject line made no sense -
and it surely didn't say what you now say it meant. Thanks for clearing that up.

Where are you getting your statistics? I'd like to know, because those things are fluid and always interesting.

You're stating and restating the obvious, to no different end. yes, women get a raw deal in all kinds of ways. Women didn't used to be able to vote, remember? There are all sorts of gender inequalities, but I like to think that we've made great strides, and if we continue with the same deliberate and unflagging energy, we'll make more and more as time goes on.

We also have taught our children how it is when women are equal citizens, and I'm enjoying watching the younger generation operate in a far more color- and gender-blind way than did ours.

As for your final paragraph, I have a news flash for you - I never met a charged criminal in my life as an attorney who wasn't innocent, and who wasn't genuinely shocked and surprised that he'd be caught. It is not a reaction unique to the charage of rape.

As for your assertion that "the protest against women who are found to be false in their accusations raise far more attention and concern than the women who are found to be true in their accusations" is something, I believe, that you've pulled out of thin air. I remember very clearly the atmosphere here at DU when the Duke lacrosse players were found to have been set up, that the woman was a liar, and the DUers who had been screaming for the heads of those young men were suddenly silent.

Rape convictions are quiet things, because it's to protect the woman. I'm sure you are able to understand that................................
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shondradawson Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #40
46. I don't believe I have pulled my assertion out of thin air...
especially in light of the inequality in this country that is still alive and well established, though no longer in the laws, but in the attitudes of those in position to uphold and enforce them. This is not the forum for a lengthy sociological discussion, but as I stated in my original post, even women in those positions are guilty of peculiar attitudes when it comes to the crime of rape.


As an attorney, I am sure you're familiar with the joke among police precincts..."that rape is an assault with a friendly weapon?" The joke among the criminal courts that the rape victim is about to be "fucked twice?" My stats come from several books about sex crimes in America, retrieved from the public library.

As for the more attention given to "false accusations" than true crimes, we are witnessing it now with former President Carter's reasonably founded accusation that there is a racist element in the hysterical opposition to the Obama administration, as discerned from the posters and proclamations made in the protests. That there is a sexist element to reasonably founded accusation of glee in exposing false accusations of rape is also something detectable and to be explored.

"Oh, there's the race card again.." is a cynical smirk that serves to bring no justice to the real accusations of racism. "Oh, the rape charge for a little attention again..." serves to bring no justice to the real accusations of rape. I am only exploring whether or no there is a conscious means to protect status quo by diminishing real accusations by sensationalizing false ones.

Rape convictions are quiet things to protect the woman. I am able to understand that.

I am sure you are able to understand that cries of rape are often quieted to protect the man...

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post.
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. No, I've never heard anyone say that
about rape.

You are making the worst, most stereotyped, tired old generalizations about rape and its fallout. I don't think you understand how trite your ideas are.

And now you tell me that you got your statistics out of a library book?

You're busy besmirching good people who - according to you, in your hazy world - are doing and saying terrible things, while I, in my world, which is very different from yours, see people trying to do the best for people who have had very bad things happen to them.

That crap about what police officers say and what is said in the quiet of the courthouse is about as big a pile of whaleshit as I've ever encountered.

Just keep believing everything you read in your library book.

You're welcome for my time, but I do believe I have wasted it here. Your mind seems impenetrably closed and clamped on ugly stories that you choose to believe instead of getting out into the world and finding out how things really are.

I would urge you to volunteer to be a companion to rape victims, or even battered women. See for yourself how it really is.

But your theories are nonsense..............................
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shondradawson Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. I have been a volunteer....book should be plural, in the thousands
Edited on Fri Sep-18-09 01:54 AM by shondradawson
I have read covering various academic subjects over the course of two decades. I should get out more? I have traveled further than most...

The comments made from police officers and judges about the precincts and the courts was cited in several works. I do not want to believe it, anymore than you do. But I am not so emotional and culturally inculcated that I will refuse to believe it because I don't want it to be true.

Your crude assessment of me and my life only drives home the whole point of my post. Your reply is mean and spiteful: I have said and done nothing to deserve such an unfair and gross treatment. Your reply is wrought from nothing but a reaction to who you think I am and how you think I live. No, I couldn't have proved my point better than you have...my father would have agreed. He was a prosecuting criminal attorney.

My post, as some posters seem to understand, was an inquiry into a matter I don't profess to have all the answers to. I wrote out of faith to find a resolution, indeed, justice to a dark and depressing issue. I should have known: when cloaked with "positivism," the body of a cynic becomes powerful than it ever was when "trying to do the best for people who have had very bad things happen to them," becomes truly hazy...this culture never does change for all your best.

But I should have known, I should have known the hours, every day, for years, within the halls of the great libraries and a Great Books college, of conversations and conference (with those, like me, like some posters here, who would believe in spite of all they know), wouldn't give me passage through to the minds covered less with human bones than the steel plates of the culture they profess to be working to change..In fact, I do know. But I can still believe...

You have your world, and I can see it...I live in it. Perhaps you will see the world someday as I do...it is not a world of wishful thinking. It is a world as real as the truth of all things I seek. It is a world in which all are welcome to share. It is our world.

Hope you come around...
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. Since you read it in 'thousands of books,' or
whatever the number is, you chose to believe that. And my experience happens to countermand those literary references that you hold so dear, so you decide that my response was "mean and spiteful."

Your tender sensibilities are touching. I'm still waiting to hear where you got your statistics - and "one of my library books" doesn't cut it. I got mine working in the courts, representing women and children who had been battered, sometimes raped. I was there, and I remember all of it. Every minute of it.

You're a St. John's graduate? I don't believe that, not for a moment. I've known St. John's grads, and they can think and write very well. Or did you just hang out in the library? That's not the same as matriculating, but it's good you threw that in, that one of the libraries was a Great Books school.

Was that to impress me?

Listen, you have a rigid and erroneous and quite narrow idea about how rape is handled in America. You're wrong about it, and you express it very badly. There's a substrata of word salad running through your paragraphs.

Your final attempt to piggyback on my concept of finding out how the world operates is feeble, and kind of sorry. No Great Books graduate would ever dare do anything so derivative - they take pride in their creativity and open minds and originality. Plus, they express themselves wonderfully.

You've set up a thesis where women are always victims and men are always bad.

That's pathetic, and is the rubric of a world into which I would never venture, nor would I permit my loved ones to go. Honesty, integrity, a willingness to embrace the ideas of others that might expand your own are all things I cherish, and you exhibit none of them.

When you're done victimizing and condemning, I'll maybe read something else you post. But, until you drop your sad old stereotypes and ideas out of books you read, you're lost, just lost, on this subject........................................
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shondradawson Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. St. John's in one of five Great Books Colleges in this country....
there are four others.

I do not think telling you I attended a Great Books college and my vision of the world would impress you anymore than you believed telling me you were an attorney and your vision of the world would impress me.

If you are unimpressed with my expression and my ideas, I am sorry for it. I am unimpressed by your "bedside manner" I could presume you use when representing the women and children who have been battered. I could doubt you are an attorney, and doubt the statistics you gave, that you also did not reference. I could doubt that you know any St. John's graduates or that you really care about the injustice in the criminal system. But I willing to believe you are a better man in a different space and company; perhaps you can believe I am a better writer in a different space and company.

I wonder where your disdain for books and libraries comes from...several of your comments are rather shocking, given your stated profession.

I did not set up a thesis where women are always victims and men are always bad. I am aware of the difference between meaning and implication. I am aware that meanings are not open to interpretation, though implications are...

To suggest that I am setting up such a thesis is an implication: but it is not what my post means. Read the post again. Should you come to the same conclusion, you have left me with no choice but to believe you reply only to defy and dismiss any statement I make, any truths I give you, while asking for more. Why? You are not interested in a civil exchange: you have made this very clear.

If you think me in the wrong, you may. I do not mind. What I mind is your peculiar persistence to prove it, but only by making me retract my statements, confess my lies, so to speak. Why didn't you spend more time giving examples, references of your own, to prove where I was wrong, rather than vulcanize your counterpoint with vituperation? Why didn't you consider that I may share the same great concern for good people who have bad things happen to them, and want to do my part to resolve the causes, direct and indirect, of the indignities they suffer?

You considered none of this, and tell me I am the one lost on the subject? Ye gads! Your last exchanges contain nothing but personal attacks that have nothing to do with the subject of my post at all. I have read what you think of me and what you think of yourself, but nothing about the crime of rape and the sexist elements that still make it difficult to bring it to justice. Yes, even to bring the false accusations of rape to justice.

I thank the other posts for taking the time to comment on the matter and not on me.

"Honesty, integrity, a willingness to embrace the ideas of others that might expand your own are all things I cherish, and you exhibit none of them..."

Indeed! (sigh)


Good night, all..








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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #8
43. looking up to TM's post that was replied to, 40% (less than half) reported rapes result in an arrest
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #43
48. It's a very easy charge
for angry women to throw around. It's become quite popular, since it gets the man into horrible trouble, and even if the whole thing is dismissed, he's still got that in his history.

Charging "rape" is a powerful, powerful tool, and, yes, some women are that venal...............................
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #48
63. And, for some of us, it is a VERY difficult charge to make since it looks bad for us
I know some women are that nasty, but I believe that more of us have been raped and would never charge someone with it.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. Actually, Ma'am, Reported Rapes Have Dropped
The 2007 numbers are almost four percent below those from 2003, and almost three percent below those of 1998.

There does not seem to have been much change in rates of either arrest or conviction.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. The generally-accepted definition of "rape" is:
some close variation of "forcible sexual relations with a person against that person's will". The Hofstra incident appears to be an example of consensual sexual relations.

There's no "latent resentment" in pointing out that this young woman falsified a police report and accused five men of rape...exposing them to public judgment from a position of anonymity.

That's wrong, both morally and legally.


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shondradawson Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I agree with you: nevertheless, my post is meant to explore why
the moral and legal wrong of false accusations of rape receive more outrage and condemnation than the crime of rape itself...why?
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Geoff R. Casavant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Just as a thought -
I would offer that the false charge of any crime is denounced more than the crime because it uses the system itself to commit wrongdoing.

In this, rape is not unique - the false accusation of theft, murder, and practically any other crime is denounced as well, in direct proportion to the heinousness of the crime accused.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
36. IMO the problem is that rape is extremely traumatic and accusing the victim of lying...
...causes secondary emotional trauma far more than most other crimes. and thus the rights of the accused conflict with the emotional needs of the victim. Accusing a victim about lying about being robbed or mugged is not traumatic, cross examining a rape victim, implying she is lying very much is traumatic. That is why many rape victims do not got to the police.
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abumbyanyothername Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. And this is why I state that the problem is the social stigma
associated with sex (even though rape is not a sexual act, the defense of consent raises the specter of a consensual act that the victim is too ashamed to report as such).

If there were absolutely no stigma associated with sex by persons of any gender, then the false defense of consent would be far less likely to prevail since no one would believe it. If consensual sex is a yawn -- or even a badge of honor, then the victim charging rape must have some reason other than sexual shame to make the accusation.

Now, just as revenge or various motives can lead to false charges of burglary or murder, it could also play into a rape charge. But in rape we have the added possibility that the victim really wanted to have sex and then felt ashamed about it and so made up a story about rape. And that specter hanging over the whole proceedings unnecessarily hampers reaching a just result.
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Gwendolyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
28. They don't. Average people are horrified by rape.

The Hofstra case didn't make the news because of the false accusation. It made the news earlier when people were disgusted a the presumption that 5 students were involved in a gang rape. In this case, the boys were imprisoned for days before it came to light that she had lied, so the benefit of the doubt definitely erred on the side of the girl.
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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
29. Try this
Because it is a natural conclusion the false accusation case will be used to reduce the outrage and even the ability to prosecute actual rapes.
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abumbyanyothername Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. But did she consent to the filming
that was the evidence?
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. I have no idea.
But do you seriously think police would charge someone for not-authorized filming (if it wasn't authorized) , when that filming could very well have saved him from many years in prison?
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abumbyanyothername Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I think the filming
if non-consensual might turn an otherwise consensual sex act into something that is at least colorable as rape.

At least it is an angle worth thinking about.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. Do you think that regret after consensual sex
can color that consensual sex as rape?
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abumbyanyothername Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Nope.
But I think that if I consent to x (let's say fondling a tit) and what happens is y (penetration) that is rape.

Similarly, it is at least arguably rape that if I consent to sex with 5 guys but what happens is sex with 5 guys that is filmed.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Well you might have an idea that filming sex makes it rape, but
that is not what the law says.
:eyes:
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abumbyanyothername Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Are you sure?
Because I don't have an opinion one way or the other.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. This isn't the first gang rape accusation case I heard of,
Edited on Fri Sep-18-09 12:04 AM by LisaL
where all charges were dropped because a videotape surfaced.
I've yet to hear about anybody being charged with taping in those kind of cases.
Make your own conclusions.
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #13
57. I'm under the impression she didn't know about the filming
Given how it was reported that she changed her story once she was told that the incident "may" have been filmed. From all reported accounts I've seen it appears she did not know the incident was filmed, and if she didn't know it was filmed she obviously didn't consent to it being filmed.

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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. Cathleen Crowell Webb and Gary Dotson in 1985.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,957001...

The amicable morning-show encounters took place against a grim background of continuing questions about what really happened on July 9, 1977, in a Chicago suburb. A dazed and injured Cathleen Crowell, then 16, told police she had just been raped and cut with a broken beer bottle by a young man in a car. Dotson was subsequently convicted of the rape and given a 25-to-50-year sentence. In March, Webb first told Illinois authorities that her accusation had been false, and then surfaced on Today, insisting that she had made up the story out of fear that she was pregnant by a boyfriend. Last month, however, the judge who presided over the original trial rejected Webb's recantation and refused to throw out Dotson's conviction.

More than 70,000 Illinois citizens signed petitions urging Governor James Thompson to free Dotson, and he extended executive clemency early last week after a three-day hearing. But Thompson announced that he still believed Webb had been raped and Dotson properly convicted. He was commuting the sentence, said Thompson, because it left a "cloud over the Illinois justice system," and because Dotson had served enough time for the crime. The Governor's failure to give Dotson a pardon, which would have cleared his record of the charges, means that in the law's eyes he is still guilty. Dotson, therefore, is appealing for a new trial.

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abumbyanyothername Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. I might sympathize with your point
but you are wrong on the metaphor of the burglary case.

The accused is innocent until proven guilty in both cases. The prosecution has to make the case in both cases. The accused is not required to prove innocence in either case.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. Stupidest post ever. nt
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
11. My local paper if full of stories of convictions of rape
I don't know where police and prosecutors and jury treat rape as "a chuckle or a giggle" but then, I admit, I am not close to these cases.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
15. The case didn't start up as a case of false rape accusations.
It was at first reported as "horrific gang rape." Now that the woman has recanted, you think media should just ignore it, after publicly identifying the "suspects?"
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subcomhd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Funny how this is a sex crime in which we know the victims' names but
the perp is still anon.
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NaturalHigh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Danmell Ndonye. nt.
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. Her name is Danmell Ndonye n/t
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Fading Captain Donating Member (895 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Perhaps the problem, with the media, is naming SUSPECTS
maybe they shouldn't be named, not only after arrest and arraignment, but conviction.

Is that unrealistic? Probably
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NaturalHigh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
22. Rape is a reprehensible crime, and rapists should be locked away from decent society.
Lying about being raped, as we now know that Danmell Ndonye did, is also reprehensible and should also be punished severely.
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Fading Captain Donating Member (895 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
24. Are you serious?
How do you go from this:
It is not a coincidence that the false accusations of rape make headlines far more than the actual convictions of rape.

To this:
Whether you are a man or a woman...how can anyone take a charge of rape with an insouciant grin and a cynical shrug? "Oh, you know women...heh, heh, heh..." or "Oh, you know men, tsk, tsk, tsk." I tire of the chuckle, the giggle, the sheepish comments when you address both men and women about sexuality.

Who in the fuck is chuckling at rape charges?
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shondradawson Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. please read the the passage again...pasted here with emphasis
I tire of the chuckle, the giggle, the sheepish comments when you address both men and women about SEXUALITY. At what age can you speak about sex without chuckling, giggling, raising your eyebrows or flipping your hair? At what point can the issues of SEXUAL PATHOLOGY be discussed without latent resentment against the opposite sex seeping through every word?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
31. In my friends case, her mental issues were used to push a "lying attention-seeker" defense.
She is physically disabled and has some emotional issues, both caused by brain damage from Shaken Baby Syndrome (she is of perfectly normal intelligence, though, she is not mentally disabled) The rapist got off with mere assault and petty larceny charges.

If a rape victim is in any way acquainted with the accused, the rape trial ends in acquittal...

Check! The rapist was a acquaintance of her BF.

If a rape victim is in any way sexually attractive (it is common for prosecuting attorneys to advise their clients not to wear any makeup or fancy hairstyle, to modulate their vocal tones, and to not appear "approachable"), the rape trial ends in acquittal...

She is a very pretty young woman and can be a bit flirty, the perfect excuse for a rapist (she's a slut!!!).
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
44. Why is it for some people,

That men are automatically judged a rapist, and women not capable of lying?

I'm not saying that this applies to this case, but really,

Why?
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shondradawson Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #44
49. I don't know why: I know it is in no way implied in my post....
and in no way implied in my mind. In fact, I emphasize that the overwhelming majority of men are not accused of rape, false or true. It strikes me strange, then, when men speak out in defense of a man accused, as if "it could have been them." I do not believe that it could have been true for most men, so I am forced to question whether it is indeed true for the one who was accused...I suspect in women as well who speak out as if, "it could have been them," and the need to believe the woman may lay outside of reasonable doubt. The reason for the post is: what is that latent resentment that lashes out in defense, defense, defense...of the man, of the woman, that seems entirely personal, and not really about the facts, either concerning the present circumstances or the past conditions when confronting the crime of rape.

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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #44
58. Because too often the rapist gets off by calling the victim a lying, attention-seeking slut.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
45. I understand where you are coming from, what you are meaning
thank you for your post. I wish I knew why rape is still not considered enough of a crime to prosecute, or even arrest someone for so often. I've been there, didn't report it because, after all, it was my boyfriend and we'd had consensual sex before. Just because I ended up with a broken nose and cracked ribs, hey, I probably deserved it.
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 01:44 AM
Response to Original message
52. Our criminal justice system is built upon the premise of innocent until proven guilty
Even with the most heinous of crimes.

"a home is burglarized, the owner is not asked to prove she owns the home, is not asked to prove she invited the burglar in, is not asked to prove what was stolen was there before. The defendant is asked to prove he was not there, he is not in possession of the alleged stolen property. In short...why is the man never asked to prove he didn't rape the woman?"

Actually that's not true at all. The defendant is never required to prove that he/she did not commit the crime in question. The onus falls upon the prosecution to prove that the defendant committed the crime. And there have been cases where people have been falsely accused of crimes such as rape or child molestation. I had a good friend of mine who had his life ruined because of a false molestation charge; eventually the parents confessed that they put their child up to it because they had a grudge against him. It's unfortunate, and thankfully it doesn't happen that often, but it does happen occasionally - which is why our justice system is designed the way it is.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #52
59. But that is no excuse to let defense attorneys secondarily traumatize rape victims...
...by assassinating their character, calling them lying, attention-seeking sluts. All to play of the misogynistic biases of the jury.
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Liquorice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
53. At the root of rape is sexism. Until society changes its attitude and strongly condemns
all sexist language and behavior, women and girls will continue to be raped every 2 minutes in this country, and the unfair way those rapes are treated in our court system (and in the court of public opinion), will continue. In the same way that racism is now openly condemned and not tolerated in our society, sexism in all its forms must also be rejected for things to really change.
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. How would you change it?
It's not meant to be a snarky question, but rather a serious inquiry as to how you would change the court system in such a way that you still preserve the presumption of innocence until proven guilty? After all, even in a rape case, the burden is still upon the prosecution to prove the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
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abumbyanyothername Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #54
60. One suggestion is to eliminate the crime altogether and
treat rape as you would any other assault.

As I recall, this is coming from feminists arguing that the severe penalties for rape (as compared to other assault crimes) encourages the whole criminal justice system from arresting officer to jury and sentencing judge to attempt to find ways to mitigate the charge.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. A very bad suggestion, imo.
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Cid_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 04:45 AM
Response to Original message
56. "why is the man never asked to prove he didn't rape the woman?"
Seems to be a case of "guilty until proven innocent."

Using the robbery example, no one is required to prove that they didn't rob a house. The onus is on the authorities to prove that the suspect did indeed commit the crime.

Am I missing something?
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
62. To put this as succinctly as possible
As a male, I tire of the men = automatically guilty attitude that is pervasive in DU. Things that as stated outright and implied about men would rarely be tolerated by women in here yet it is often allowed to go on without any admin involvement.

So when situations come up where a woman has lied about rape it becomes a big deal. That does not mean the men revel in it, celebrate it or wish such a horrible abuse upon women. It doesn't mean that men ignore the rape of women. What it means is that the often kneejerk reaction to men in here, without thought or investigation, that is common among many DUers needs to be countered. If a woman has behaved illegally, as she did in this case, it illustrates a point that needs to be made about this jump to conclusions.

The gender issues will never be resolved by such immature thinking as the demonization of either gender.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
64. The law
I tire of this ongoing mockery of controversy...is a home is burglarized, the owner is not asked to prove she owns the home, is not asked to prove she invited the burglar in, is not asked to prove what was stolen was there before. The defendant is asked to prove he was not there, he is not in possession of the alleged stolen property.

You clearly don't get it.
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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
65. Just an FYI...a situation I know of...a retarded girl was raped by boys in school
and under our state law, neither the boys or the school could be sued. Basically, because she was retarded, she couldn't really understand what had been done to her by the boys. And the school is absolved because unless they 'saw it directly and did nothing to stop it, it doesn't matter what happened on school grounds.'

Basically, there is something wrong with boys and guys who rape. We need to stop making excuses for them. They are scum and I hope they will burn in Hell for what they've done, even if they 'get off' in the court system.
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