False Rape Accuser Recanted Only When The Video Tape Was Presented...

[BlooInBloo]

It most certainly is not for me to criticize women for what they choose to do with their bodies, but it seems to me that false rape accusations hurt all women as much as the smearing hurts the accused.

There's so much inequity in how female crime victims - REAL victims - are treated in America; this kind of crap can't help.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/17/danmell-ndonye...

"An attorney for one of the men has said the encounter was recorded on a cell phone.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

MINEOLA, N.Y. (AP) – A prosecutor was considering Thursday whether to file criminal charges against a Hofstra University freshman who recanted claims that she was gang-raped by five men in a dormitory bathroom.

The student, whom officials have declined to identify, has been suspended from school pending a disciplinary hearing, said Hofstra spokeswoman Melissa Connolly.
Story continues below

The spokeswoman also said that a suspension against Rondell Bedward – the only Hofstra student among the five men implicated – had been lifted.

The attorney for another of the accused men, 20-year-old Kevin Taveras, said a video of the sexual encounter confirms reports that the victim was not forcibly attacked.

"It looks more like a porn movie," Victor Daly-Rivera said. "It showed just the opposite of what the allegations were. There was no tying up, there was no bruising, there was no screaming."

On Wednesday night, Nassau County District Attorney Kathleen Rice revealed that the 18-year-old accuser had recanted and said the sex with the five men had been consensual.

Rice immediately got a judge to release four of the men from the Nassau County Jail. A fifth man was still being sought when the hoax was revealed.

"It's crazy, the system is supposed to prevent these things from happening," Taveras said outside the jail late Wednesday

"It's supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent," he said. "Inside I thought I was going to do a bit for something I didn't do.""

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. Not only are the real female victims harmed, but these men would have been harmed as well by

being incarcerated for no reason.

[redqueen]

5. Yes...

I wonder what motivated her to claim it was rape.

I bet they file charges against her for it.

[Liberal_in_LA]

7. the 1 act of false claim of rape will be used to doubt real claims of rape

Too bad this happened.

[question everything]

180. Right. Their names and mug shots are already out there

proving they were falsely blamed will be hard, if not impossible.

Like the Duke students, they had the resources to sue to get them proven not guilty, because just dropping the charges was not good enough. There will always be someone who says: humm.. where there is smoke there is fire.

[musicblind]

217. Yeah we saw people saying things like that after Michael Jackson died

Being acquitted of charges, sadly, does not count for much of anything with the general public

[JonQ]

320. Bingo

and to much of the public these guys are already guilty. An accusation is enough to ruin a reputation (especially for certain crimes), and no amount of evidence will ever entirely clear you.

I really hope they counter sue, this woman tried to smear them and send them to jail (where they could possibly have actually been gang raped) all for her own ridiculous reasons, she deserves a punishment of some kind.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

351. The criminals apologist do not care about this

These young guys would have been sent up to State pen with a rape conviction under their names. Anyone who has seen their pictures can tell that they are hardly the type that would survive in general population of prison. Some of these guys would have been targets of prison rape. How ironic and sad it would be if they were raped in prison because of their conviction.

Actions have consequences.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

2. Without the video this thread is useless.

[BlooInBloo]

4. I really should have seen that coming.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

Your spelling of the wor......... Oh wait never mind I'll stop now. nt

[BlooInBloo]

15. (facepalm)

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

17. My apologies, I have completely polluted your thread. nt

[Occulus]

255. .

Both of you deserve a DUzy for that.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

303. I prefer this to the tedious discussion down-thread...

nt

[omega minimo]

327. Yes so "tedious" for some people to discuss gender/sexual issues in an informed and aware manner.

So "tedious" to discuss based on what's known, consider what's unknown without assumptions and projections and consider the possibilities of what happened in this case, in the bathroom and at the police station.

So tedious to be objective.

So tedious to

[subcomhd]

339. can you write anything without the word "projection(s)?" nt

[EOTE]

379. It's getting rather tired.

You'll have to forgive it if its vocabulary is a bit limited.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

421. It's not tedious when the discussion is informed and aware...

Which is why the discussion downthread is so tedious.

And thank you for your contribution, by the way.

[subcomhd]

6. lol nt

[robinlynne]

9. you are bad.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

10. Hey I'm always to slow to get a "without photos, video, etc. ......" comment in these threads.

I just had to do it.

[grahamhgreen]

159. VIDEO LINK!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcl-uofCzRc

[demwing]

312. Did you order a pepperoni pizza?

Cause here's the pizza
.
.
.

and here's the pepperoni

(funky Rick Jame music intro)

[virgogal]

3. False rape accusers should be punished to the fullest extent of

the law.

[pitohui]

83. how false was it? five guys on one girl -- you really think this happened by choice?

sorry but she prob. did feel raped and felt she did have to play along -- her mistake was assuming that anyone in this society would care or understand if there was the least bit of complexity to her case


come on, five guys, one girl, i'm just not seeing the consent here

c'mon, do you pile on with your buddies onto one girl? nope, you got better sense than that, even if the girl is maybe saying (pretending?) she wants it

if the girl was intoxicated/high there's no ability to give consent here even if she was smiling

maybe it's not such a clearcut case, maybe no one needs to go to jail, but c'mon

there are clearcut cases of made up accusations but it's pretty clear these guys ganged this girl, it is not "not rape" just because it looks to some people like a "porn movie" and they've brow beaten the woman into retracting her statement

it's easy to brow beat someone who has been gang-raped

disclosure, yes a family member was gang raped, needless to say, as she was a female, fuck-all was done about it, no one ever served a day for the crime, bitter much? of course i am! and people wonder why women don't report

you're told to do what you have to do, including smiling and talking and going along, to save your life but if you do...fuck you, you're a slut

if the guys are innocent, then this is a good outcome, but i don't see too many innocent guys piling five to one on a girl, sorry to be skeptical

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

98. How false? All the of the way false.

"you really think this happened by choice?"

You mean choice as in free will as opposed to pre-ordained destiny? Because either way she consented.

"c'mon, do you pile on with your buddies onto one girl?"

I don't know, is she hot?

"if the girl was intoxicated/high there's no ability to give consent here even if she was smiling"

So you're saying women are too stupid to handle themselves as adults? If the men were intoxicated did they get raped too? No? Well there you go. Welcome to the twentieth century.

"maybe it's not such a clearcut case, maybe no one needs to go to jail, but c'mon"

Oh, it's clear cut. She needs to go to jail. They're perfectly fine. You're digging yourself into a hole.

"there are clearcut cases of made up accusations but it's pretty clear these guys ganged this girl, it is not "not rape" just because it looks to some people like a "porn movie" and they've brow beaten the woman into retracting her statement"

It's not rape because she consented.

"it's easy to brow beat someone who has been gang-raped"

It's easy to make up false accusations. It's harder even after the facts are in. But apparently some people still do it. Cough cough.

[Kalyke]

289. "Is she hot?"

Seriously, you'd dip your stick in sloppy second, thirds, fourth of others', you know, just because a woman was hot?

This sexualization of women as merely a cum hole needs to stop.

[naaman fletcher]

240. Either she consented or she didn't.

If she consented out of peer pressure or something and regretted it in the morning that sucks, but it is not a justification for a false rape accusation. She should go to jail for however long the guys would have gone to jail had they been convicted.

[Echo In Light]

269. I used to drum in underground metal bands, and lemmie tell ya, there's some crazy chicks out there

... er, at least in the sense that they're quite enthusiastic to participate in all sorts of sexcapades that many 'normal' types prefer to believe is strictly limited to pornography. Not so. By a long shot.

[BoneDaddy]

272. Jesus

people like you make me just shake my head and wonder.

[Hello_Kitty]

322. delete - wrong poster

[BoneDaddy]

409. hello kitty, np )

[Odin2005]

281. Good point.

How many women "consent" to a gang bang simply because they knew they should never be able to get out of the situation unhurt?

[Xithras]

319. Are you kidding?

You REALLY need to browse AdultFriendFinder and educate yourself if that's the way you think. There are PLENTY of women out there who are simply into NSA sex, bondage, rape fantasy, gangbangs, SM, etc. Not everyone is a puritan about sex, and some people simply like fsking for fskings sake.

Your line of thinking puts innocent people in prison for crimes they didn't commit. Just because you can't comprehend behaving a certain way, doesn't mean that others don't enjoy and seek out those kinds of behaviors.

[pnwmom]

329. You might not "see the consent" but the police -- who actually saw the video --

did see consent.

Yes, this woman did a crazy, stupid thing -- and so did all the guys. But it was group sex, not rape.

[omega minimo]

346. The police will do a thorough inventory

of body parts
sex acts
consent
and
non consent.


What all did they do to her?

[TheWraith]

361. She CONFESSED THAT SHE COMPLETELY LIED.

She's on record admitting that she made up the "rape" story because she didn't want to admit to her boyfriend that she'd cheated on him. That's out of her own mouth. Nobody "browbeat" her, and she probably never would have admitted it if there hadn't been a videotape which included her explicitly consenting.

So kindly take your defense of a criminal, and your deliberate attempts to muddy the water, somewhere else.

[omega minimo]

368. Take your browbeating somewhere else.

[TheWraith]

381. What part of her confession can't you understand?

When she found out it was on tape, she admitted she was lying. Period.

[omega minimo]

387. I was commenting on the browbeating.

[Robb]

410. Meh. Take your lumps. nt

[omega minimo]

8. Maybe college kids need more education about porn, sex and each other's boundaries

[TexasObserver]

19. That has nothing to do with a woman filing false rape reports.

Accept that this particular young woman did a horrible, criminal thing, and because of her stupid actions thousands of women will suffer the consequences of doubt brought on by this kind of charge.

She's probably a very sick person, a socio path who likes being the center of attention and has long used drama to get there.

She has acknowledged it was consensual, and if there had not been a tape, she probably would not have done so. She could have continued to pull her fraud, and sadly, almost everyone would have believed her, held rallies for her, and worshipped her like a icon.

[omega minimo]

25. Sure it does. Think about it for two seconds.

Why are college kids at 18 thinking this is a thing to do now? In the dorm bathroom. 18. 5 boys. 1 girl.

Consensual? Do you think she -- or any of them -- had any idea what they were really in for?

Who knows what she or the boys went through or what the tape does -- or doesn't -- show.

Who knows at what point the "consensual" sex felt like gang rape. It was simulated gang rape, wasn't it?

How does an 18 have "consensual" sex with 5 men at a time?

"She's probably a very sick person, a socio path who likes being the center of attention and has long used drama to get there."

She's an 18 year old college freshman living in a dorm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Just think about it.

And for the potential dimwits reading this I AM SAYING WHAT I SAID ABOVE, A NEED FOR EDUCATION, I AM NOT JUSTIFYING AN ALLEGED FALSE ACCUSATION OF RAPE.

[TexasObserver]

29. Forty years ago it was called FREE LOVE.

Either we treat 18 year olds as adults or we don't. They own their bodies. And not everyone thinks their genitals are "naughty parts." Some women and some men are more sexually active and open than others. We can discuss why this might be true, but the timelessness of it suggests it has been here a lot longer than transient interests or cultures.

You see this event and think in terms of the woman being a victim, when she merely has a different set of values than you. Maybe she likes having sex with multiple men. That would seem to be the case, especially since she has acknowledged it was consensual. Are we to believe this is the first time she's ever done anything sexually wild and crazy?

[omega minimo]

30. You are projecting false assumptions on what I wrote. Read THAT and try to understand.

Don't put your false attitudes on me.

"Are we to believe this is the first time she's ever done anything sexually wild and crazy?"

No one knows, do they? You need to back off your own filter a bit and try a more objective POV.

[TexasObserver]

33. We KNOW she consented to sex with four guys. She said so.

Now you want to blame anything but HER for this happening.

You seem committed to any explanation except the most obvious: She's got some problems, she needs and craves attention, and she uses sex to get it.

[omega minimo]

37. No.

"Now you want to blame anything but HER for this happening."

No. You are not reading what I wrote. You are not thinking about it. You are deciding you know what happened, when no one knows. You are stuck on your own need for an "explanation" and resorting to the "most obvious." You have no idea what happened there and what they went through.



Don't want to think it through? Okay.

[TexasObserver]

40. I'm sure she'll get an "apology" tour on Oprah, and Tyra, and ....

Then we can all hear about how it's not her fault, but it is the fault of some guy somewhere.


BTW, I'm with you if you're betting she had a lousy father, but I'm betting she had a lousy mother, too.

[reflection]

110. Probably not best to argue with it.

It tends to get annoyed when confronted with facts contrary to its worldview.

[omega minimo]

132. The "worldview" in post #25 was "just think about it" -- if that's not too much for you to handle

[reflection]

328. I assume it said something argumentative.

Cut back on your omega batty acids posthaste.

[madeline_con]

139. You need a reality check. There are 18yo's who'll do multiple guys. n/t

[omega minimo]

149. And you need a reading comprehension course.

[madeline_con]

163. I think I get what's going on here. An 18 did 5 guys in a bathroom.

Then, for whatever reason, she decided to ruin their lives by crying rape. Then, she recanted her tale of horrific victimization when the video of the incident was made available.

Then, you decided you didn't believe any of it.(She was fighting for her life. Thank GOD she got away!)

Did she recant because they're stalking her, will that be your next contention? She's doomed to be their sex slave forever because she's paralyzed with fear?

[rbixby]

308. I think she had buyer's remorse

And she felt that this was her only recourse. Sorry lady, crying rape isn't going to make your guilt complex go away.


Not to downplay the horrible emotional damage an actual rape does to a person, but just because you do something and then regret it later doesn't mean that you should do something like this. Was she naive and manipulated? Probably. Was what happened right? That's questionable. But according to the law, she did in fact consent to the act.

Its like signing a contract and then later saying that you were beaten and forced to sign it, when its clear that you weren't. When people are adults, they're expected to behave like adults, and take responsibility for their decisions. While I find the entire situation reprehensible, it doesn't seem to me like there were any laws actually broken.

Sometimes there is no recourse for doing something you regret, except to move on.

[omega minimo]

331. "But according to the law, she did in fact consent to the act."

If "she did in fact consent to the act," what act? Which act/s? With which guy/s?

For all the maddened assumers here are projecting their "you're a prude cuz you're not assuming like we are," none seem to be thinking through the actual scene.

Your comment hits that on the head. The unquestioned, unexamined "she did in fact consent to the act" and then what?

All these savvy, sexy, posters, oh-so-secure-in-their-certainty they can hurl around accusations of prudery, yet just blank out at the bathroom door and start up again at the police station, a process of "doing" 5 boys like it's all on automatic and NO ONE wondering what the tape will really show? What really happened?

Perhaps that is due -- despite all the claims about what women want or will do and decide for themselves -- to thinking only from the male POV.


If "she did in fact consent to the act," what act? Which act/s? With which guy/s? Did one or more of them do something to her that she didn't consent to? Aside from the videotaping, that is.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

350. "If "she did in fact consent to the act," what act? " All of it.

"For all the maddened assumers here are projecting their "you're a prude cuz you're not assuming like we are," none seem to be thinking through the actual scene."

If people are being prudes here, it's because of their inability to imagine that women might actually enjoy sex.

"All these savvy, sexy, posters, oh-so-secure-in-their-certainty they can hurl around accusations of prudery"

If people are going to dish out false accusations of rape, they should be able to take correct accusations of prudery.

[darkstar3]

401. I think you need to remember something.

Your post said: "If "she did in fact consent to the act," what act? " All of it.

It sounds like what you're saying is that as soon as she says yes and you get your dick in her, she's fair game.

I've been reading this thread and I'm horrified, and this is as good a place as any to add what I have to say. I'm going to try and keep it clean enough to not have it deleted, but here goes.

If she says "no" just once, no matter when, and you keep going, then it's fucking rape. That's the end of the argument. To wit:
-If you're balling like spider monkeys and you do something disgusting and vile, and she says don't, and you keep doing it, you just started raping her.
-If you've put it in her ass before, and you try again this time and she says no, and you do it anyway, you're now ass-raping her.
-If you both agree to safe sex, and you pull the condom off mid-romp for whatever reason, you're now raping her.

Consent is not a toggle switch. Just because she says yes to fucking YOU doesn't mean she says yes to fucking your friend. Just because she says yes to fucking YOU AND THREE FRIENDS doesn't mean she said yes to the FOURTH guy. Consent is not a toggle switch. It is not a gateway. It is a continuing process. Just because you're skanky and she fucks you doesn't necessarily make her a whore you can do anything you want with.

Until you climb off of her and she can leave the room or the alley or the club or whatever of her own free will, it's still possible for you to rape her.

But unfortunately, a lot of people are seriously uncomfortable with this level of nuance regarding sex. Apparently it has something to do with the Limbic brain, but I don't understand the problem fully.

[subcomhd]

403. red herring

yes, all of those things are rape - and there isn't a bit of evidence that shows any of those things occurred. or anyone claiming they did.

[darkstar3]

404. Delete

can't find what i was looking for.

[subcomhd]

405. she has changed her story again? nt

[darkstar3]

406. No, I was reading the wrong story,

and in fact I wasn't even really arguing about this specific girl. What HiFructosePr0nSyrup said scares me a little, along with a lot of what I'm reading in this thread regarding consent. A lot people could stand to read my first post on this thread, as we agree that what I said on rape was true.

In the case of this girl, I intend to reserve judgment. Rape and accusations of rape create a horrifying echo chamber of knee-jerk reactions and counter-accusations. Much like my position on other things, I will say nothing one way or the other until I can see all of the evidence.

That will never happen, so I'll confine my comments to the general concepts of rape and consent themselves.

[Gwendolyn]

408. What you say is true, only not applicable to the incident in the OP.

If the woman had changed her mind halfway through and made it clear to the three boys, all she had to do was tell the cops this. Instead she:

1. Said she screamed for help. A lie.
2. Said they bound her with rope. A lie.
3. Said they beat her. A lie.
4. Said it was non-consensual, start to finish. A lie.
5. Changed her story several times. Lies, lies and more lies.

Here's another truth.

Sex is a lot of fun, so much so that people often forget they have a boyfriend (girlfriend) at home when they're into it with someone else. When suddenly faced with being exposed by the hapless cuckold who may turn into an angry pitbull at any moment, some really irresponsible sociopath might think a perfectly fine alternative to owning up to one's shitty, cheating behavior is to pass it off onto innocents.

[darkstar3]

411. Your numbered list appears to be true,

but your topic and your last paragraph bother me.

While your statement about sex and significant others may be true in a philosophical/sociological sense, take care that you do not ascribe motives to a woman you know nothing about.

As for your subject line, we do not have all of the evidence, and thus we cannot know whether my original post is applicable or not. And remember, the evidence in this and in any case is not for the police, the lawyers, the media, or us to judge, but for an actual judge and/or a jury of peers.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't discuss what's happening, but I do think that convicting her in your own mind before she even has a chance to be arraigned is a bit harsh.

[Gwendolyn]

416. There's no real reason to believe she'll be arraigned at all.

But anyway...

The DA made a statement that included the woman's assertion she was worried about how her boyfriend would react. That's been in the news for days. There's a story in the NY Post today (which I linked) where the boyfriend speaks out about waiting for her in her dorm room and what transpired when she got there. So I'm not ascribing motives out of thin air. Why should those involved be disbelieved?

Also, I haven't been out of uni long enough to forget how certain girls were labeled ho's, sluts etc... once news of their sexcapades spread. All because young village scolds can be as hatefully judgmental as their older counterparts on this board. It doesn't surprise me that a young woman would be concerned, given that environment.


http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/twisted_motive_behin...

[omega minimo]

32. Forty years ago it was called Gang Rape. Free Love wasn't 5 on 1.

[TexasObserver]

36. NO, it wasn't. She consented. She has said so.

Your insistence on reframing this event so that it violates your personal vision of the world is a flight into fantasy land. Your view of these events is immaterial. It's not a rape. It's not a gang rape. It's five people having a sexual encounter you find disgusting and unfathomable. What they did was legal. What they did was their choice, and it's none of yours.

We're Progressives, not Puritans, at DU.

[omega minimo]

39. I corrected your comment about "40 years ago." You are still projecting your own blind spots

and BS. We're done. You know everything anyway about this and any other news story that comes up, where you need a snap decision, a judgement based on hearsay, a "most obvious" explanation to fit your People magazine POV.

[TexasObserver]

41. NO, you didn't correct it. You made a false statement in response to it.

Keep trying to spin your way away from this compelling and dispositive fact:

SHE ADMITTED SHE CONSENTED.

I'm not the person in this thread whose point of view is completely detached from that simple fact.





Surely you're not claiming that FREE LOVE did not include orgies and multiple partners. Are you?!

[omega minimo]

56. You're wrong. I already said. "Free Love wasn't 5 on 1." I corrected. You changed the subject.

"Surely you're not claiming that FREE LOVE did not include orgies and multiple partners. Are you?!"

Your misreads and strawmen, continuing projections are why we are done here.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. So forty years ago...

"free love" involved two people, both genders, in the missionary position, in the dark, after marriage, for the production of children, and in complete absense of any fun.

Yeah, you're remembering a different forty years ago than what I am.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

252. How do you do it with

only two people?

Every day, I swear, I learn something new.

Look, Free Love didn't necessarily mean orgies, or gang bangs, or trains, or whatever they're called these days. Free Love meant love and peace and no holding back. If it was going to be one man and three women, that was fine. Two women, four men - excellent. One man, one woman - kinky, but fine.

The only requirement was that everyone be there because s/he wanted to be there. No pressure, no forcing, no violence, just sweet sex and lots of music and all kinds of good things.

This thing at Hofstra wasn't anything I ever encountered or heard of during the fine days of the 1960s, but, if it had happened, and everyone was fine with it, all I'd have said was "Way to go."

(Correction: I did know a girl who routinely took on groups of boys. She was an intensely troubled young woman who eventually dropped out and disappeared. I met her father, a famous sociologist at Yale. A cold, stern man who made his daughter's actions make sense to me.)

If it felt good, we did it. But no one ever cried, no one got hurt. We cared for and about each other.

This incident - it's something else. Something troubling, a girl with issues, boys who are far too willing to get a piece rather than consider the girl is not right in the head. Jesus, I'd hope a son of mine would have had his head on straight enough, even if he was drunk, to stop it, even if the girl was hot and rarin' to go.

Some things are just wrong. This was wrong. But it wasn't rape, and those young men have already been penalized in a way that should never have happened.

I'd LOVE to meet that girl's parents...................................

[Touchdown]

103. As a gay guy, 5 on 1 is what I pray for!

And frat boys on top of that?!!!!

[BlooInBloo]

104. (facepalm)

[omega minimo]

133. 40 years ago was 40 years ago. If anyone here is using their brain, they'll consider the differences

in the times, culture, media, fashions, access to porn, internet, video, all the reasons that anyone can believe this was a "consensual" set up of 5 guys with 1 girl in a college dorm bathroom. It's a different world now.

No one knows if she or the boys knew what they were really in for. Or what happened during.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

137. People were having plenty of orgies forty years ago.

In fact, classical histories believe that people may have been having orgies up to fifty years ago.

"No one knows if she or the boys knew what they were really in for. Or what happened during."

Well, she knows. And she says it wasn't rape.

[snooper2]

288. you should have seen the orgies 3000 years ago

fuck like, an Egyptian

[Maru Kitteh]

226. FACT: 6 people, all of whom were there, say this was a consensual act.

You were not.

The currency of your emotional investment has lost value.

[Touchdown]

363. You are such a prude.

"Different Worldview" indeed.

[hedgehog]

293. " She admitted she consented" Do you suppose she had a lawyer with her

when she went from victim to suspect?

[TexasObserver]

306. She admitted that she consented and that she lied when she said she was raped.

This fantasy you have that somehow she was really raped and that she was somehow coerced into recanting is sheer delusion with absolutely no basis in fact.

She lied. She falsely accused. The tape proves that, and faced with it, she recanted. Sometimes women lie about being sexually assaulted. Sometimes a woman is a bad person.

[subcomhd]

124. Projecting blind spots? You are raping the English language

that makes no fucking sense.

[omega minimo]

134. Your use of the word "raping" is totally fucked.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

136. No, it's the correct use

Rape-

an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.

Your use of the word rape to describe consensual sex, now that's pretty fucked up.

[subcomhd]

155. back into the bizarro world again.

inevitably this person will claim the fact that people disagree with him/her is proof he/she is correct. You can almost always count on it.

[omega minimo]

225. Ignorance is not a valid argument.

Any actual facts, thought, perspective, thought, information, thought, facts, information or thought are welcome.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

230. Actual fact: it was consensual.

You're welcome.

[subcomhd]

232. what you said. and I might ad that we know it was consensual

because every single person there says so. apparently there is a video of it.

[FREEWILL56]

258. deleted

[subcomhd]

157. saying things like "projecting blind spots" is to violently assault the language

nt

[EOTE]

297. So is yours. NT.

[pitohui]

85. "she said so" and yet we're told to say what we must to escape w. our lives

it was 5 guys, 1 girl

"she said so" shouldn't be a defense, she said what she felt she had to say

have you never even MET a woman???? i'll give you a clue, we're much smaller and physically vulnerable on average than even one guy, and when it's five guys, forget it

have you ever been a victim of a sex crime? i'll give you a clue, the benefit of the doubt always, always goes to the male, you must have somehow given him the wrong idea, you said so, somehow your words get twisted around

she has just been gang-raped and is in a vulnerable place, i'm sure she's saying all kinds of stuff

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

91. So you're calling this woman a liar?

"have you ever been a victim of a sex crime?"

If falsely accusing a person of rape a sex crime? I'm asking, because it seems to be what you're perpetrating here.

[Odin2005]

93. +1

[BlooInBloo]

95. Which is it - do women have the ability to make their own decisions or not?

My head is spinning.

[omega minimo]

135. Why did you decide to drag a rape thread distraction in here today, BinB?

Why are you pretending not to understand the previous post? I know you're smarter than that.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

140. Technically, it's not a rape thread, but an orgy thread.

And as far as people bringing up the subject of rape every chance they get...

[subcomhd]

161. It's a false accusation thread nt

[BlooInBloo]

143. "Why did you decide to drag a NON-rape thread distraction in here today, BinB?"

I corrected your typo for you. You're welcome.

And if you'll give me a list of omega-approved topics that I'm allowed to post on, I'll be happy to consider it.

[Hello_Kitty]

324. Because he has the same view of women as HFPS. Why the fuck else?

And he knows the rare "false accusation" story will always get more attention on DU than the actual incidence of rape.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

332. National news, Hello Kitty.

How you doin?

[Hello_Kitty]

393. Of course it's national news. It's a "false accusation" story.

They know millions of guys like you will lap it up.

[omega minimo]

333. and there's some other very important stories going on.

[pnwmom]

415. Not true. The Duke story drew far more attention on DU when 90% of DUers

were convinced the privileged white students were guilty as hell, and the minority women were victims. The scenario, with its "white male oppressors," fit our expectations well.

The more the evidence to the contrary came out, the more DUers just wished the story would go away. Though its issues of prosecutorial misconduct and open-discovery had important national implications, the story had gotten relegated on DU to the North Carolina forum months before the students' innocence was finally proven.

[lumberjack_jeff]

97. ""she said so" shouldn't be a defense"

You're saying that women are incapable of giving consent, and that they reserve the right to retract it retroactively.

[subcomhd]

321. lol. consent shouldn't be evidence of consent

nt

[TexasObserver]

119. You're making up a story that doesn't exist.

Please, come back to reality.

She accused them of rape.

They got lawyers. One of them produced video which revealed she was lying about consent. She recanted.

There was no rape. You're making it up. She said there wasn't.

[madeline_con]

145. So, she barely escaped with her life?! Even though she admitted

having lied?

[naaman fletcher]

241. So should we just make it a crime for 5 guys to have sex with one girl?

Why have that be legal and then just assume that any time it happens it must have been rape? Why not just make it illegal in the first place? Is five the right number? What number should it be?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

253. If they were the right five guys,

and I was a lot younger, you bet I'd invite them in - and it would NOT be rape.

Why would you insist that the numbers, by themselves, make it rape?

That's just silly, and you're doing a first-rate job of infantilizing the woman. She made her choice, she did what she wanted, and she eventually told the truth about what had happened.

We're women, we're smaller, we're physically vulnerable, and when it comes to deciding with whom we want to have sex, we're very good at it.

But, to say that it was rape just because one girl took on five boys is laughable...........................................

[pnwmom]

414. Did you see the Duke students get the benefit of the doubt? They had to

spend millions of dollars and a year of their lives defending themselves, even though there was mountains of contradictory evidence -- for anyone who was paying attention -- available within a few months.

The Hofstra woman wasn't gang-raped either. She had group sex, and was worried about someone finding out. So she made up a story about ropes, and screaming, and fighting. But when she realized there was a video of the whole incident proving her lies, she recanted.

[pnwmom]

424. This was a party, lots of other people were there -- her life wasn't in danger.

There might be times when "she said so" isn't a defense -- if the person is underaged or drunk or truly in fear for her life -- but this clearly wasn't one of those times.

[subcomhd]

118. "bang" not "rape." The term is gang bang - or orgy. nt

[rantormusing]

267. sup

How.many men have you falsely accused? Try this for thinking, everytime someone wrongly accused has been freed from prison, it's due to different accusations of rape. There is something wrong with how our courts handle rape cases, and it's time to end the guilty till innocent attitude.

[snooper2]

287. I was involved in a 3 by 2, 3 girls 2 guys...you got a definition for that one?

half gang rape or something...

[EOTE]

296. At NO time was consensual sex EVER called rape.

No matter how many participants there were. And you are absolutely sick for suggesting that. SICK. You demean real rape victims when any sexual act you disagree with becomes rape. It's disgusting.

[pitohui]

84. five guys ganging one girl in a toilet was NEVER free love

sorry, texas observer

the other poster is right and you're just wrong

the woman was a victim, and she was raped, and to say this is about different values and that she welcomed and enjoyed it well welcome to 1950 all over again

she should have never bothered to seek justice because this is how they play hardball if you try to file charges

it's always your fault, even when it should be obvious that it's five fucking guys piling on one girl and you have no choice but to pretend to go along and hope aga. hope that you'll live thru this

[Gwendolyn]

88. I'm sure all the details are in the vid.

Apparently it depicts her as not being restrained (as she claimed) and enjoying herself as much as they were.

The cops have said her story immediately fell apart and was full of holes from the beginning.

Just because you disapprove of gangbangs or group sex, that doesn't instantly confer victim status to all women when they decide to engage in it willingly. And even if she thought it was a good idea to start with, but then got a little disgusted towards the end because it wasn't as glam as she thought it would be, if you don't shout out "stop" or "no" at any point, how are the boys supposed to know what you want? In that case, you go home and realize you've just learned something important about yourself, not project your own bullshit onto other people and send them to prison for a decade.

I love some DU feminists. When it suits them we're just easily manipulated, innocent elfin waifs lost among the brutish wolves, and other times when it's expedient they want to depict women as strong individuals who don't need some jerkoff man to protect them. It's no-win every time.

[BlooInBloo]

90. +1

[Gwendolyn]

117. Well it's true.

Apparently it's so unbelievable to the village scolds that a woman would "cheapen" herself enough to have sex with a bunch of men, every gangbang MUST be a case of rape, even if it was jolly fun at the time.

Feeling used after sex definitely equals rape. In this case, half the worlds population of both males and females have been raped and deserve vengeance.

19-year-old males are supposed to be mature mind-readers who can "sense" immediately when she's no longer into it, even though she's enthusiastically doing what she's doing. 19-year-old women are all mute, vulnerable beings who are so mentally confused they can't possibly be expected to express their feelings.

Also, when a woman is being coerced into sex by a group of men and obliges for fear of her life, she's still able to give the kind of exuberant performance a porn queen would be proud of.

This is what I've learned from this thread. *curtsy*

[musicblind]

222. +2

[TexasObserver]

115. Five guys having consensual sex with one girl WAS Free Love.

You've glamorized the period. It was a lot people having a lot of indiscriminate sex.

This woman was NOT raped, so stop saying she was.

This woman engaged in consensual sex, so stop suggesting she didn't.

SHE knows it was consensual. Now all you have to do is accept it.

[subcomhd]

125. FAIL nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

126. You don't get out much, do you?

Google "two girls and a cup," watch the video, then tell me which one's the rapist and which one's the victim.

[Codeine]

147. You're so full of crap.

I know and socialize with people who engage in group sex on a weekly basis. Many times a "gang-bang" has been part of their play. It's open, consensual, and - from what I'm told - loads of fun for all involved.

If you're strictly vanilla that's fine, but don't presume to judge others who may not limit themselves or be as terrified of sex as you.

[mamaleah]

160. So in your opinion, no woman would want more than one man at a time?

All us women just want nice sex with candles, low light, missionary position, and "I love you" every 22 seconds?

Some women like BDSM. Some like a few other participants, male or female.

Welcome to the wild world of sex.

[tammywammy]

162. Don't forget the rose petals! n/t

[mamaleah]

165. How could I forget? And the smarmy music! nt

[tammywammy]

171. Michael Bolton!

LOL!

Funny to think of women only should enjoy sex that way. Not that I've had group sex, but I completely understand that group sex floats some people's boats. All well and good, do what you wanna do, but don't then accuse them of rape. And I say that as a rape victim.

[apnu]

309. LOL! I knew a girl once who could only do it to "Paradise by the Dashboard Light"

No joke. I know this, not because I was with her, I wasn't. No, she and her room mates would have many parties in their trailer and those walls are thin. She'd get hammered, yank whoever was her boyfriend at the time into her room, kill the lights and crank up the song and then fuck like a rabbit. Damn funny, those were bacchanal times I tell ya.

[TexasObserver]

174. Yes! Because sex without love ...

... can be pretty fucking awesome!

The prude factor in all this is kind of amazing. Different strokes for different folks.

As long as no minors or animals are involved, I don't care what one or more adults do to each other to get off.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

185. So what is the legal acceptable number?

Three? Two? By your definition, even one physically strong man sounds like a rapist.

[Liquorice]

238. America is in the dark ages when it comes to knowledge of how a woman may behave when being

raped. It isn't always screaming and fighting off the attacker(s). Women have an instinct to be still and not resist if they believe they can't fight their way out of a sexual attack. It's probably evolutionary, and allows many women to survive a rape who might not otherwise. People don't understand that fact, and many women blame themselves for not fighting back when raped because of this lack of knowledge.

[naaman fletcher]

242. So?

Does that mean that she was raped? Also, what if she wasn't just lying there, but in fact was really into it and having a great time? Would that be another evolutionary thing she would do to survive a rape?

[Liquorice]

247. How should I know? I wasn't there. I will say that if four or five

men are "taking turns" with one woman, SOMETHING is definitely wrong. But my comment was a general one; many people in our society (including women), are not aware of how women can behave while being raped. The only time we see rape is in movies and sometimes TV shows, in which the woman is attacked by a stranger and is kicking and screaming and fighting for her life. Although that type of rape certainly does take place every day in our country, it isn't an accurate depiction of all sexual assaults.

A woman is raped every two minutes in this country. Women may react to the attack by fighting the man off, but many women may initially resist and then realizing that won't get them out of it, will freeze, lie still, and hope for it to be over. Some women will then not report the sexual assault out of confusion and embarrassment that they didn't fight harder to free themselves of their attacker (like they see women do on TV and in movies), even though that fight would have probably caused them worse injuries and maybe even have gotten them killed.

As to your question, if the woman says no to, or resists, a sexual advance at any time, and then the man continues trying to force sex on her, he is sexually assaulting her.

[naaman fletcher]

248. are you open to the possibility that..

She engaged in the activity consensually and lied about it later?

[Liquorice]

249. Yes. But that is a very rare occurrence. Women hardly ever lie

about being sexually assaulted. It is extremely difficult for a woman to report a rape, and exceedingly rare for someone to falsely report it. The woman would basically have to be very mentally unstable to claim rape when it didn't happen. Of course, a woman who would willingly go with five men at the same time is definitely unstable, so yes it's a possibility. For that matter, the men involved are certainly unstable as well because that's some strange behavior for them as well.

Regardless, lying about a rape is the exception to the tragedy of sexual assaults that happen in our country every single day, multiple times a day.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

254. Women lie about being raped all the time -

there are more venal and angry women out there than you can imagine. To make a statement as you did above is just naive and uninformed. There are so many fake rape charges, you'd faint if you knew what goes on in the world.

Unfortunately, it makes it much harder for real rape victims. But, calling it "exceedingly rare" - well, whoever told you that told you a big fat lie.

And if you knew anything about young males, the idea that they had sex with a willing female along with their buddies isn't at all "unstable." They are part of a herd at that point, and getting some is the most important thing in the world. That's the young male libido, god bless it, at work.

It's almost as horny as the young female libido, another dirty little secret we like to pretend isn't true....................................

[naaman fletcher]

268. When you say that women hardly ever lie

about being sexually assaulted, would you say that the rate of false rape reports his lower or higher than the rate of false reports for other crimes?

[woo me with science]

274. Absolutely false. nt

[TexasObserver]

294. No. False reports of sexual assault are a very common occurrence.

It's a huge, huge problem for prosecutors, who have to weed out all the phony cases. There's a reason prosecutors - who love to prosecute - decline to prosecute up to a third of all sexual assault cases reported, because there are so many bogus claims.

The biggest myth out there right now is the one you're trying to sell: that women seldom lie when they report sexual assault.

[EOTE]

298. This woman obviously lied.

Just about every detail she gave police was proven to be false once the video was shown. If she wanted to convict the men, why didn't she just tell the truth? Is video proof not enough for you?

[Codeine]

261. "Something is wrong"? Why?

Some folks - men and women, gay and straight - get off on group sex. Don't project your vanilla desires on everyone.

I've been in some threeways; was something "wrong" there? (Psssst - the answer is "Hell no!" )

[Odin2005]

276. Hence my comment elsewhere that...

Just because it LOOKED consensual and it LOOKED like she was "enjoying it" does not mean it was consensual and she was really "enjoying it". I have been told by several rape victims that the rapist used sexual pleasure as a form of humiliation ("You liked it so it's not rape, bitch!!!").

[EOTE]

382. Then why did she lie about what happened?

You can make up all the ridiculous scenarios you want. As you say, she could have LOOKED like she was enjoying it, but was actually dying inside. If that was the case, why did she make up all the details about her being restrained and all that bullshit? Are you planning on giving this girl the benefit of the doubt after she lied her ass off? Really?

[rantormusing]

271. it's called defending yourself

And thank god you don't have the power to decide their fate. having been accused how do you think they should legally defend themselves. Because from this vantage point, it looks like you think they should be locked up with no right to a defense. Oddly, everytime I hear about someone being freed from DNA evidence it's been from a rape case.

[EOTE]

355. How dare you accuse this girl of lying!

On a progressive board, you'd think more people would believe this girl. But not you, you think she was lying when she said she was lying earlier. It's obvious to you that she was lying the second time around and not the first. She just said that she was lying the first time because she REALLY wants to open herself up to lawsuits from those boys. So according to you, she was raped and then recanted her story because she didn't want to get the boys in trouble? Maybe she wants to serve the jail time instead? Your twisted logic is pathetic.

[Touchdown]

101. The girl recanted. There is no "ALLEGED FALSE ACCUSATION" anymore.

But nice try in poisoning the well.

[omega minimo]

138. And if this had been a gay boy, not a girl

as you said was your fantasy, would your view be the same.

It is an alleged false accusation, because it was recanted, possible under pressure, not just from the presence of videotape.

There are many possibilities here about what happened. You are not looking at them.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

142. So you're saying maybe this woman raped the five men?

They say it was consensual, but maybe they feel threatened.

[madeline_con]

148. If this "gay boy" you made up said yes, what's the problem? n/t

[omega minimo]

234. You don't know what happened next.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

237. Sure we do.

She had consensual sex.

And afterwards she lied and claimed rape.

Open and shut.

[Touchdown]

371. And you're filling us in on what happened next.

You are more ignorant about this case than the rest of us. We accept what facts there are. You do not, and are pulling things out of your ass to justify her false accusation.

[Gwendolyn]

27. Forget it. It's hopeless. n/t

[omega minimo]

31. Goodbye, dude

[musicblind]

224. Um, that poster isn't a dude. That poster is a female.

[Gwendolyn]

227. She thinks because I don't buy into the "all women, all victims, all the time" theory,

I MUST be a dude.

Once these threads get inundated with the 19th century morality squad, they're usually a good source for giggles.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

233. That person thinks NASA landing probes on the moon is rape.

Although having read that thread, I have my doubts about genders.

[Gwendolyn]

244. Lol, must have been before my time.

In this thread, what I'm getting from her posts is that no woman who comes home with the smell of sex on her to face an interrogating boyfriend would ever come up with some cockamamie story to avoid getting slammed for cheating. Only men cheat, and only men lie about it.

Her presumption is that no woman could ever find herself in a multiple-partner scene without regretting it so it's always automatically rape. If she regrets it but says nothing and soldiers on as though she enjoys it, that's rape too. Lock up the boys and throw away the key. They should have known no woman likes it, even if she says she does.

All women who are involved in a sexual scene with men of their own age are naturally victims because they are less emotionally and intellectually evolved than the men due to patriarchal enslavement, ergo they aren't culpable or responsible for their own actions. Only the men are.

Anyone who disagrees with these presumptions must be a MAN!

[omega minimo]

236. No. It isn't.

[Javaman]

284. Aren't you the one that screemed, "I won't be silenced!" when the unrec fucntion was introduced? nt

[EOTE]

300. Woah! It's being mighty feisty today! NT.

[PVnRT]

314. "It"? Wow.

[Czar One]

80. I think you have issues

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[omega minimo]

200. said by someone whose screen name means "penis wider than its length"

[EOTE]

301. His screen name is a character in a sci-fi show.

You should have known that by the conversation you participated in yesterday. Unless, that is, you're being rather obtuse. I guess I know what the answer is.

[omega minimo]

362. "He's a lot like the ultra-misogynist pig named "Spanky" from "Drawn Together""

"That's the Chode character, though, being true to his name. He's a lot like the ultra-misogynist pig named "Spanky" from "Drawn Together"- a stereotype."

[TexasObserver]

122. Thanks. I'll treasure that always.

Dear Diary,

Today some new guy said he or she thinks I've got issues. I can hardly wait to find out what he, she or it thinks tomorrow.

TO

[omega minimo]

141. Maybe you need some education, too.

[madeline_con]

151. You're not educating anyone. n/t

[RetroLounge]

42. Once again on the wrong side of an issue

RL

[omega minimo]

52. I'm not taking sides. I'll leave you kneejerk armchair experts to your unfounded opinions. Carry on.

[tabasco]

67. You are the person foisting unfounded opinions on others.

They're not buying your shit, either.

[omega minimo]

146. No I'm not. Those who pretend they know what happened are "foisting unfounded opinions"

Not sure why thinking things through is such a chore for some of ya'll. It's easier NOT thinking, apparently.

[madeline_con]

154. She screwed 5 guys and you can't believe it. That's all there is to it. n/t

[omega minimo]

201. Speaking of projecting blind spots

[Javaman]

285. You keep bringing that same odd point up.

so I guess they video showing consensual sex is lying? And she recanting her accusation is false?

Huh, that's some odd world you live in.

[subcomhd]

359. Please stop saying that. That jumble of words you keep using "projecting blind spots" makes NO sense

literally or metaphorically.

[EOTE]

383. Now you're projecting polka dotted spots!

And sure someone can project blind spots. You just need to put some permanent marker on a projector lens.

[subcomhd]

390. Would that really be a blind spot? You have only changed the shape of the projection. nt

[EOTE]

398. Potato, potahto.

We agree that it's pretty much impossible to figuratively project a blind spot. I'd contend one could literally do so.

See this dog? His name is spot. As you can see, spot is pretty much blind. If I were to project this particular dog on to a screen, I'd be projecting a blind spot.
Ipso facto. Et cetera. Per diem. Ad nauseum. Tempus fugits.

[subcomhd]

431. lol. Is that your dog? nt

[madeline_con]

418. How does one "project a blind spot"?

[PVnRT]

315. Yet, you, too, are pretending to know what happened

So, yeah.

[Codeine]

79. Invariably. nt

[omega minimo]

204. I am not responsible for anyone's ignorance or lack of comprehension.

[Codeine]

208. Except your own. nt

[omega minimo]

219. Point to one post here in response to mine that was not a projection or misread. One.

Well one just popped up:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[RetroLounge]

365. Kettle meet pot...

RL

[anonymous171]

48. Or they just need to tape more of their orgies.

For legal defense reasons, obviously.

[pnwmom]

412. Maybe they do. But this case doesn't lend any weight to that point

any more than the Duke case did.

The woman lied. Overall, and in the details. She wasn't tied up with ropes. She wasn't screaming or resisting. She invited the students within her "boundaries."

[Odin2005]

11. It's crap like this that causes real rape victims, like my disabled friend, to be called "liars"...

...and "attention-seeking sluts". My friend's rapist got off on a lesser charge because enough idiots in a jury believed the defense's character assassination of my friend.

This shit infuriates me!

[pitohui]

86. this girl is being character assassinated too

she's just been gang raped and she's being put thru the wringer

you're faced w. 5 guys, you're backed up, you have no way to get away, what is the advice you were given in that self defense

oh yeah, it was do what you need to do, make the guy(s) like you so they won't fucking KILL you when they're done

they have destroyed this girl and they're gonna get away with it, no different that what happened w. your friend

your anger should be directed at a system where the woman is almost never believed and where she is often severely punished for trying to file charges

she was supposed to just swallow this, that's what making the video was about, to make sure her life is destroyed forever if she spoke up

THAT is what infuriates me, THAT is what causes women to be victimized

it's easy to make mentally distraught people say anything, admit anything, to end the pain

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

100. It's not character assassination if it involves facts.

[BuelahWitch]

112. Oh, but don'cha know, she WANTED it!

Yeah, yeah, she was beggin' for it, that's right! Uh huh, ya know, I hear you say "no" but you mean maybe, don'cha? 'Course ya do!

The replies to you and Omega are just disgusting. I guess so called "liberal" men can't get past their "woman as porn star" fantasies any more than anyone else.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

121. Uh, well, yeah, she wanted it.

She says so herself.

What's that line about Puritans? They can't stand the thought of other people having fun?

[WorseBeforeBetter]

127. This may be difficult for you to accept...

but it's not unheard of for women and men, of all political stripes, to have porn star fantasies. Why do you think sites like AdultFriendFinder and Craigslist Casual Encounters exist? Just because it's not your thing doesn't mean it doesn't appeal to others.

[Gwendolyn]

129. Yeah, she DID want it. And probably had lots of fun.

Too bad the boyfriend and parents weren't on board. Better to send boys to prison than have your boyfriend mad at you. He might get really mad and break up with you.

____________________________________________

Rice refused to speculate on the woman's motives for filing false accusations against the men, but she said that after the consensual encounter, the woman returned home to someone she referred to as her boyfriend and he "asked her some questions." The two then went together to campus security, Rice said.

"Her actions and demeanor suggest a very troubled young woman in need of some help," Rice said.

At the high-rise brick apartment building in Manhattan's working-class Washington Heights neighborhood, where the woman's family lives, a family friend who did not want to give her name described the woman as an American-born child of immigrant parents who had a "structured" upbringing with "very, very, very involved parents."

Law enforcement said even before the young woman's interview with Singas and another top prosecutor, Sheryl Anania, Wednesday night, a few questions loomed large.

Why had none of the students living on the floor where the incident happened heard any commotion that night, when usually they can hear something as quiet as a person brushing his teeth, prosecutors asked. They wondered why the accused rapists would have taken the time to dispose of the rope the woman said they used to tie her in a bathroom stall, but left used condoms littering the bathroom floor, a law enforcement source said.

And finally, why would the accused rapists have asked their victim to come with them when the encounter ended, as she herself said they did?


Her pathetic saga continues here...

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/da-hofstra-ra...

[TexasObserver]

131. If these guys didn't have video, they'd be goners.

[Gwendolyn]

144. They would've been toast. Lives ruined completely.

Anyone can be falsely accused, your brother, father, friend. And the end result of these cases usually, is that it was over something stupid, like fearing your parents over missing curfew, or not wanting a husband/boyfriend finding out about the cheating. It's scary.

[Codeine]

150. Guess what --

some women do want that. I know them personally. Some folks dig different shit than you. Get over it.

[TexasObserver]

153. There's a very strong Church Lady reaction happening with this.

Someone finds the notion of multiple sex partners abhorrent, so they wrongly conclude that any occurrence must be occasioned by force, or fraud, or drugs, or anything but "that's how she likes it."

[omega minimo]

203. The sad part is that because of the way times have changed, this "fantasy" being more commonly

portrayed and available to view vicariously... the sad part is that all it's done has reinforced black and white thinking, false assumptions, non-thinking.

My point was that none of us know what really happened. All the people attacking me are convinced they know what happened, don't even think about different possibilities and assume that the bottom line is prudery or "she wanted it."

Just another sign of how stupid we've become. Unable to think openmindedly about a situation, with objectivity. This is the scary bullshit you find when you serve on jury duty.

So much for critical thinking.

[madmusic]

211. That's why we have, used to have, the presumptions of innocence.

To allow time for the facts to come in, and when they come in to court, they come in under the rules of evidence that evolved over time to ensure neither side had the advantage.

[omega minimo]

220. Which also allows time for discussion, based on available facts, consideration, objectivity.........

[Threedifferentones]

266. Aren't you just harping on about how clearly she could not possibly have wanted it?

I mean, the article details how inconsistent the first story she told was, and how the video backs up the "rapists" account of events. Yet, the people who believe the article are projecting their porn fantasies, and those who do not are brilliant critical thinkers, because they know exactly how this and every other woman feel about sex.

Critical what?

[omega minimo]

348. Not once

[EOTE]

386. Actually, we do know what happened.

There was a fucking video, for christ's sake! You have the nerve to attack others for not thinking when you haven't shown an ounce of critical thought this whole thread. You have no objectivity whatsoever. After all the evidence presented here, you still believe this girl when it's convenient for you and ignore her when she was forced to tell the truth. You would NEVER give men one small fraction of the benefit of the doubt you've given this girl who has already admitted to lying. Your attitude is quite sexist and the fact that you need to call women who disagree with you "dude" or "it" demonstrates that quite clearly. Not only sexist, but immature.

[subcomhd]

212. yes, she wanted it. everyone who was there agrees on that point

I suppose you know more than the participants as to who wanted what?

[TexasObserver]

128. There is absolutely no basis for this story you have conjured up.

You keep posting this outrageous story you've imagined - with no basis in fact whatsoever - about this poor young woman being raped, and then bullied into ... what?! First she charged them, then she saw the video showing she lied, THEN she recanted.

You keep telling a story with no basis in fact. Your only criterion is: find the woman blameless, whatever it takes.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

256. No, she had sex with five guys because

she wanted to. No one forced her, her life was never in danger, she did it willingly, freely, and voluntarily.

You insist on trying to turn her into a victim, an infant, a being without a mind of her own, contradicting everything that a good feminist holds dear.

She wanted it, she let it known that she wanted it, and she got it. Why she lied about it afterwards is something that is not yet known, but I'm sure we'll find out.

In the meantime, save for the terrible, terrible mistake she made by charging rape, I say "Good for her!" A truly liberated young woman who did as she pleased, and had the sex the way she wanted it.

Yes, she chose. And your issues - whatever they may be - are rendering you incompetent to the point where you are making up facts - alleging the girl to be "mentally distraught" when she was just having fun - about the young woman. That says a lot more about you than it does about the girl involved.

She had the power, and she used it. And then she set out, for her own, selfish, twisted reasons, to ruin the lives of those boys. Maybe it was as simple as shame for what she had done. People with your attitudes would make her feel ashamed, but the truth stands - she did them all willingly, voluntarily, and cheerfully.

It's on the screen.......................

[omega minimo]

326. You haven't seen the video, have no validity to those claims, projecting, assuming like most here

Falsely.

[TommyO]

292. She was *NOT* gang raped

[quiller4]

305. It isn't persecution when the accusations are true and on tape. n/t

[omega minimo]

340. You've seen the tape? Gotta link?

[LisaL]

417. I don't need to see the tape to figure out that since prosecution

dropped all charges, the tape doesn't show what the woman initially claimed happened.

[Gwendolyn]

12. Another case of buyer's remorse gone bad.

There are PsOS in every identifiable group. Hopefully she'll be punished.

[WI_DEM]

13. this hurts the many rape victims who truly are raped and those who won't come forward because of

this.

[aaaaaa5a]

14. 50% of all rape accusations are false claims.

Sadly, cases like this are far too frequent.

[Fumesucker]

16. Oh my...

[BlooInBloo]

18. Yep - not gonna bother with that one.

[UndertheOcean]

23. where did you get that statistic from , got links ?

[aaaaaa5a]

229. My mistake. It's 41% not 50% according to the study below.

http://falserapearchives.blogspot.com/2009/06/archives-...

[rucky]

280. This study proves two things...

1) Rape is hard to prove in court & many cases don't even make it there. Victims are shamed, intimidated, and often recant rather than go through the legal process. This is well-documented.

2) Prosecution depends on the way police investigate & handle rape cases (this was a longitudinal study of one police department).

The FBI and UCR stats are way more solid than this. For you to conclude "false allegations" from this study, you're ignoring alot of other factors.

[musicblind]

338. "These false rape allegations constitute 41% the total forcible rape cases (n = 109)"

That is from the link.

It seems like you are ignoring the facts in the link because you fear they will lead to real rape victims being too afraid to come forward. But the facts are there... in the link.

[rucky]

343. Your 'facts" are from a small-town police jurisdiction...

and you're applying them to the nation. Check some nationwide studies instead of cherry-picking like that.

[Odin2005]

345. "Victims are shamed, intimidated, and often recant rather than go through the legal process." +!

When when they do go to court their character is assassinated in front of the jury by the unscrupulous defense attorney, any sense of decency and respect for the victim's emotional trauma be damned.

[rucky]

278. That is so not true.

Check the FBI stats.

[omega minimo]

334. You're still here?

[Zywiec]

20. Sadly, here is some information from the innocence project

http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/Search-Profiles.ph...


Many people wrongly identified by victims or eyewitnesses spend countless years in jail.

Thank God for DNA

[hedgehog]

38. There is a difference between not being able to identify the attacker,

and making up an attack in the first place. This is either a case of consensual sex or acquittance rape. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.

[Zywiec]

277. There is a difference, but in each case men are arrested and jailed

based solely on what a woman says regardless of anything else. In this case, it was one woman's word against five others word. In what other case would we believe one person compared to five?

How about innocent until proven guilty, and then requiring EVIDENCE other than what only one party says!

[EmilyAnne]

21. This woman has a serious mental illness and needs years of help in that department.

I'm sure she's already lost all of her friends.
If she had a boyfriend, he's dumped her.
Her entire family is humiliated and angry.
These innocent men and their friends and family HATE her.
She can kiss her college career goodbye, at least for now and definitely at this school.
She will probably have to leave her city if not the state to resume her education.

If she wanted to have consensual sex, on videotape, with five men, then more power to her.
The fact that she immediately regretted it to the point that she was willing to send these men to prison??
That shows some SERIOUS problems with her self esteem.
Serious.
I wonder if someone like this could ever, really, be OK?

[Lance_Boyle]

24. good christ, REALLY? It *must* be "mental illness?"

I wonder if maybe, just MAYBE she's an evil fucking bitch who sought to destroy five people for reasons known only to her? Nah - she must be a victim SOMEHOW. Just like that lying fucking sack of human-looking crap that tried to ruin the lives of three people at Duke. Women must ALWAYS be the victims in these things. They are all pure as the driven snow, of course.

[NoGOPZone]

34. Funny you should mention the Duke case

Roy Cooper, who finally overturned the indictment and pronounced the boys innocent, seemed to at least consider the possibility that the accuser she was mentally ill.

"Our investigators who talked with her and the attorneys who talked with her over a period of time think that she may actually believe the many different stories that she has been telling."

Emphasis mine.

Of course, it's tough to prove that being mentally ill and being a 'lying fucking sack of human-looking crap' are mutually exclusive, so I guess your statement still has some validity.

[BlooInBloo]

76. Apparently to some here, women are supposed to be "sugar and spice and everything nice"...

When they're not, it's a mental disorder. I'm just surprised the "some" referred to are women.

I thought that's what *men* were always getting yelled at for thinking.

[Odin2005]

89. My friend's "mental problems" were used against her at her rapist's trial.

She is diagnosed with Histrionic Personality Disorder and the defense used that fact to "prove" that my friend was making it up to get attention.

HPD is the modern version of the "Women's Hysteria" BS of 100 years ago.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

102. Huh.

So the defendant was found not guilty?

[Odin2005]

105. Guilty, but of lesser charges, not rape.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

107. What was the charge that stuck?

[Odin2005]

183. assault, theft.

[BlooInBloo]

109. Ah. Someone else who really doesn't believe in a woman's right to choose..

what she does with her own body.

[Maru Kitteh]

239. Men can have a HPD too.

HPD is a real disorder that can seriously disrupt the lives of all involved. Two people in my family, on my husbands side suffer that disorder.

[Odin2005]

279. I didn't say it wasn't a real disorder.

What I meant was that it seems that women are often misdiagnosed with it because of sexist notions of "hysterical, over-emotional women".

[EmilyAnne]

175. And apparently some here apply brand new meanings to certain terms because of some completely

unrelated political situation?

How the fuck can so many people see the term "mental illness" and decide that it equates to, what, being a victim? An excuse?
Being not sugar and spice but without being bad?
Seriously, I am fascinated by this response and the others like it.
How can anyone look at that girl and not think that there is something seriously messed up in her head?

Wait, actually, maybe you guys are right.
Maybe that girl actually is an innocent victim.
A victim of the DEVIL!!!
With red skin, horns, and a pitchfork he came up from hell and made that girl EVIL!!!
Awesome.
Now, THAT makes sense!

[EmilyAnne]

172. Well, see, I don't believe in magic so just being "evil" doesn't make sense to me.

An evil fucking bitch seeking to destroy five people sounds like a character study for a Danielle Steele novel.
Or maybe from a comic book.

I was not excusing this woman's behavior in any way, of course, but you injected that into my comment because the word "mental illness" is a trigger.

Call it mental illness or being fucked in the head.
Or call it "evil."
Whatever.
None of those are excuses.

What has happened to our ability to communicate?
We have these prepared responses ready to go as soon as a certain trigger word is heard.
Suddenly, the term "mental illness" means "excuse."
Being severely mentally ill somehow means being a "victim" and also means being "pure as the driven snow?"
Ridiculous.

[omega minimo]

26. Perfect blame the victim boilerplate. Perfect!!!

[TexasObserver]

47. The VICTIM here is not the woman. It's the men.

YOU are blaming the victims, which are the men wrongly accused.

[omega minimo]

57. You don't know who the victims are. No one does. That post was Perfect Blame The Victim Boilerplate

What. That. Means. Is.

There's this thing called context.

"That's perfect blame the victim boilerplate" is a statement.

It may apply to this case or this "victim" or another. I don't proclaim to know. You do.

That "perfect blame the victim boilerplate" is applicable and projectable onto any blame the victim situation. Generic. Automatic. Kneejerk. Indiscriminate. Thoughtless.

That. Is. The. Point.

Stop saying what you think I think, because you don't. Buh Bye.

[TexasObserver]

61. YES, we do know! The men are the victims.

She's the perpetrator, the criminal who falsely accused them of a heinous crime.

[appal_jack]

120. Delete - nevermind - not worth it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. What part of "consensual" confuses you?

What part of "giving false statements" confuses you?
What part of "nearly locked up for life for a crime they didn't commit" confuses you?

Her gender combined with her questionable judgment does not make her a defacto victim.

[omega minimo]

207. What part of read the post confuses you. #57 clarifies for the context-impaired

[Silent3]

402. I know posting a response to you is as futile as futile can get...

...but just out of curiosity, I have to ask: You keep saying everyone doesn't "know all of the facts". What facts could possibly be left to be known? What subtle nuances do you suspect could possibly be on in that video waiting for our careful reassessment?

There was originally an accusation that was full of holes and inconsistencies. When that accusation was withdrawn, all of the pieces fit pretty neatly together, the testimony of the men, and the later testimony of the woman after recanting, paint a pretty consistent picture of what happened.

The fact that you can dream up possible scenarios -- and anyone can -- where somehow the woman's recantation is the real lie hardly matters.

Do you suspect that if we carefully examine the video at, oh, 20 minutes, 17 seconds in (just to make up time), that we'll find a flicker of doubt cross the woman's face, a passing moment when she might have thought to herself "Maybe this isn't such a good idea", and if any such moment exists, and the men didn't all pick up on it and immediately stop what they were doing, then, well, maybe this really was rape?

Exactly how often during a sex act are men (and only men, of course, those intrinsically evil, victimizing bastards) supposed to ask a woman if she's really, really sure she wants to continue? Once every five minutes? Two minutes? 30 seconds?

What level of facial expression reading, body language reading, or even mind reading, is required of a man so that, even if he's in the middle of ejaculating, he stops utterly and immediately whatever he's doing in case he picks up the slightest hint that a woman he's with might have changed her mind about doing what they're doing together?

[EmilyAnne]

176. Projecting your political hangups on my nonpolitical statement! Perfect! nt

[TommyO]

295. The victims here are the five men, falsely accused of rape.

[EOTE]

304. That post was actually a defense of the guilty.

I don't think the woman has mental issues, I'm guessing she decided to ruin those 5 guys' lives knowing very well what she was doing.

[harrison]

62. Although there is some controversy among

psychiatrists and psychologists because of what is perceived to be gender and cultural bias, there is a personality disorder known as histrionic personality disorder. The disorder is found among the Cluster B, character disorders of the DSM which also include narcissistic, antisocial (sociopathic) and borderline disorders. Up to 75% of HPD's diagnosed are women. Conversely, about 70& of narcissists diagnosed are men. However, all are in the same cluster which means they share certain characteristics.

Histrionics can be men or women and it is an attention seeking disorder. Histrionics are also subdivided into flamboyant types and also quieter, passive aggressive types. In both cases, attention seeking through flirtation, if not seductive and impulsive behavior is fairly symptomatic.

There have been studies done which show that histrionics sometimes are prone to filing false criminal claims. Since my ex girlfriend was diagnosed with hpd, I have some experience with this. From my own experience with my ex, details mattered little to her. Indeed, she based reality upon her "impressions."

That is, she would believe to her last breath her view of things, even though facts would show just the opposite. Indeed it is a very strange thing to confront someone like this with facts, reality, the truth and watch the blank look on her face. It was almost unnerving.

Obviously I don't know if the young woman is hpd, but it wouldn't surprise me. In a strange sort of way, this young woman might very well believe her own reality. Again, on a number of occasions I saw my ex absolutely deny the reality of something and she seemed to believe it. Repression and denial are very strong defense mechanisms they employ.

I am sure that there are some psychologists and psychiatrists very familiar with this disorder on this board who can weigh in with their expert opinion.

The HPD's on the end of the continuum are very disordered people. No known cure. They have little or no insight into their behavior because they are so externally oriented. They possess very little sense of self and thus are always looking for external validation.

[TexasObserver]

75. Quality assessment.

[Odin2005]

96. HPD is the modern "politically correct" version of the bigoted "hysterical women" BS

That's not to say that there are not people that truly are pathologically attention-seeking, but it seems to be that the accusation of attention-seeking behavior is a euphemism for an "uppity woman that dares to assert herself". What in guys is called "assertive" is called "hysterical" and "attention-seeking" when women do it.

[subcomhd]

114. Is Munchhausen syndrome by proxy a type of hpd? nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

123. They're all subsets of CASNJWMSUS

Crazy Attention-Seeking Nut Jobs Who Make Shit Up Syndrome.

[UndertheOcean]

22. Doesn't "Innocent until proven guilty" and the acuser having the "burden of proof" apply in rape

accusations ?

Why do I get the feeling from the replies to this post that the woman is always assumed to be telling the truth , and the man assumed to be guilty .

[Tangerine LaBamba]

28. Because that is how it works, more often than not -

the woman is believed, and the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't exist.

Witness the Duke lacrosse players' case. That one was as ugly as anyone can imagine from the get-go, the character assassinations were heaped upon the young men sucked into that one, but the woman was always presumed to have been telling the truth, to have been the poor black girl used and abused by the rich white guys, to have been just another toy they bought and threw away.

Of course, it didn't hurt that the DA in that matter was out of his mind with headline-seeking and dreams of re-election.

But they were railroaded and condemned here by the open-minded liberal types, and now, this matter once again raises the spectre of that automatic condemnation and dismissal of the possibility that young men are being wrongfully charged.

Fortunately, the girl got caught by the video - who would have dreamed that a boy used his cell phone to record her little adventure?

I hope they sue her for everything she might ever have, and I hope the state's attorney brings criminal charges against her.........

[Posteritatis]

66. Heh, the reaction on this site to some of the stuff in that case was impressively ugly

Whole lot of accusation-equals-guilt "thought," goalposts shifting all over the place ("It doesn't matter if they did it! THey're Duke students and need to be taken down a peg!"), etc.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

72. Indeed -

remarkable to watch the Constitution being trashed in favor of the anger of some against white males from affluent families.

Issues. Personal issues.

Where would we be without them?

Perhaps the most horrific part of that unfortunate saga is that it's not been evident that anyone learned anything from it, and so the ranting and prattling go on..................................................

[Posteritatis]

73. It opened my eyes a bit

Both to the attitudes here about such things, and to my own interpretations of guilt and innocence in those kinds of situations. Both were uncomfortable realizations.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

82. Good for you!!!!

That awful moment - hopefully before the words escaped your lips (or keyboard) - are the lessons, I think, that we most need to learn, and the lessons that we best learn.

Yeah, it's a bitch to be confronted with what we are, but it's the first step to changing those mindsets and attitudes into the ones we truly want, to free ourselves of whatever it was that made us think that way.

Again, kudos to you. And to all of us who get awakened via these unfortunate incidents..................

[omega minimo]

209. Maybe it was her cell phone. The one she said was stolen.

[Gwendolyn]

49. Rape is tricky.

It's a horrible act that is usually committed in an isolated spot where there are no witnesses. When a crime is as bad as rape, and there is no DNA evidence, do you just throw out the word of the victim point blank and allow the rapist to get away with it again and again? Back in the 70s victims were often treated with condescension by the cops and tossed out on the street unless they had irrefutable evidence. The rape stats back then were through the roof. Unfortunately, the downside of the current system is that assh*les like the person in the OP use it to their advantage and harm the lives of others.

[hedgehog]

35. Well, everyone here knows that if it's on video, it must be the entire story:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybAxtwf6CXI

[Mortos]

43. That video looked pretty clear

kids beating the shit out of another who did nothing, not even fight back. What is your point?

[hedgehog]

64. That video has been presented as evidence of black kids beating

up white kids on a bus. Local newspapers report a different story.

[LisaL]

69. Hah? The video does show black kids beating a white kid on

a bus. You might get a different story on why they beat the kid up, but the video is what it is.
Jeez.

[hedgehog]

87. The video is what it is, but the video doesn't tell the entire story.

[LisaL]

94. You see the boy being beat up. That's not gonna change. It's not going to come out

in the end that the boys were actually drinking tea and eating cookies.
Jeez.

[hedgehog]

291. The video was presented as an example of black on white violence.

The larger story appears to be that the white kid had been shunned by other kids, both white and black. person after person refused to move over and let him sit down. He finally picked a seat and sat down.That's when the fight started.

[EOTE]

389. Ummmm, it WAS black on white violence.

The person beating up was black and the person being beat up was white. Sometime kids act like fucking assholes, even black kids! How on earth can you suggest that the fact that the white kid attempted to sit down elsewhere means that the video is misleading? You can tell an awful fucking lot from that video. It's not misleading at all. Whatever example you were attempting to make from posting that, EPIC FAIL!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

99. The video does tell the whole story.

It's open and shut.

[Emit]

167. How did the local newspapers report it?

I haven't followed that story. What's the scoop?

[LisaL]

250. There is no scoop. There was dispute as to whether this

beating was racially motivated. It's not like anything on video is being disputed, the video is what it is.

[naaman fletcher]

245. what story is that?

I was in St. Louis and read the local papers. Please provide a link to your different story.

[omega minimo]

44. Everyone here knows that their explanation based on hearsay is what actually occurred.

[TexasObserver]

45. According to police, she "recanted claims that she was gang-raped."

Are you not going to believe that?

The video apparently prompted her to tell the truth. There's no suggestion she's claiming the video didn't reflect accurately what happened.

Can you not admit she made the story up to fit whatever set of personal needs she had, and would have destroyed these men's lives if they had not had video exculpating them?

[anonymous171]

46. Why would she make accusations like that? nt

[TexasObserver]

51. Typically, to hide a consensual act from a husband, or boyfriend, or father.

Or, to convince a sister, a mother, a friend that they didn't really consent to some act that, in retrospect, doesn't look that good.

In cases where this arises, it usually arises when the woman shares the story with someone, gets a negative reaction, and begins to reframe the story as one not involving consent. If you search "false rape reports" there are many references that discuss the nature of the false rape claim and its typical dynamic. It's a bigger factor than most like to admit, and plays a role in the refusal of prosecutors to prosecute a number of such accusations.

In this case, the video is likely the only thing that saved these men. They would surely be convicted otherwise. Even when she admits she lied, we still have people unwilling to blame her for this horrific event.

[omega minimo]

53. Indeed. That would be something to think about. But that's not what's going on here.

It's either/or, bub. Pick a side and put on your pads.

[girl gone mad]

65. Maybe she felt..

pretty violated and manipulated after the fact. I'm guessing drugs and alcohol were involved. The men are lucky they have video evidence because they put themselves in a very bad situation when they decided to simulate gang rape.

[subcomhd]

152. simulate gang rape? so one-on-one sex is simulated rape of the non-gang variety?

[Codeine]

179. Bullshit!

They weren't "simulating gang rape," they were participating in group sex. Would you characterize one-on-one sex as "simulated rape" too?

How about a threeway?

Where is the line drawn? When does it stop being sex and start being "simulated rape"?

[girl gone mad]

191. 5 guys, 1 naive 18 year old girl..

you tell me. Clearly something went wrong here. These men made a very bad choice that nearly cost them their freedom.

[subcomhd]

193. and hopefully her criminal choice will cost her her freedom, hopefully, right?

[Gwendolyn]

202. They're all the same age, and you know nothing of how naive any of them might be.

When sex is consensual, why should the boys be judged more harshly for their level of maturity than the girl. Are girls naturally less intelligent? Do they lack critical thinking skills, and are so emotionally crippled that boys need to make decisions for them? That's a highly sexist post you've put up there.

And for all you know, she may have done this before. You're projecting and inventing details.

[Codeine]

210. No, someone told a heinous lie that was believed without evidence,

and that lie nearly cost five innocents their freedom.

[NeedleCast]

374. What was the bad choice these men made?

Having consensual sex with a girl?

[omega minimo]

214. Something for you boys to think about.........

[musicblind]

228. A lot of the people disagreeing with you are WOMEN

despite you constantly referring to them as men.

As for me, I am a gay male, who has no vested interest in women as sex objects. I have, however, participated in a 12 way orgy... since we were all men, who was the victim? I know bottoms who have taken part in orgies where they were the bottom and all the rest were tops. Since they were all men was that bottom taken advantage of? They seem to have loved it and done it more than once ...

You are starting from the incorrect assumption that five men having sex with one woman MUST be non-consensual. That isn't the case. Just because something seems unpleasant to one person doesn't mean that is the case for others. I know people who are into cbt for that matter. *shudders*

[omega minimo]

231. NO. I'm not. Which is why I keep insisting that the ________ here read my posts.

"You are starting from the incorrect assumption that five men having sex with one woman MUST be non-consensual. "

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

235. "Forty years ago it was called Gang Rape. Free Love wasn't 5 on 1."

You call it "simulated" rape. You call the perpetrator the "victim." You falsely claim we don't know what happened.

It's all right there for everybody to see.

[EOTE]

391. What? Don't ever have consensual sex with a girl because she might try to ruin your life?

Yep, I've thought about it and it still sounds just as stupid.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

50. Reflex thoughts

1. Despicable to destroy people's lives just because you regret something later.

2. This undermines genuine violence to women

3. One of the accused was apparently hiding from police. Even though he is innocent of rape is it still a crime to fail to surrender yourself? (just an academic question, please don't hurt me)

[omega minimo]

54. Maybe she regretted it during.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

55. I'm not sure about NY law but...

...lots of states declare it rape if a participant demands an end to intercourse even if penetration has already been achieved...and I think this is what you're driving at.

But if that were the case I don't think the police would have dropped the charges.

[lumberjack_jeff]

58. Why do I know the victims names, but not the perp?

On what basis are officials declining to identify the person who committed the crime?

[Gwendolyn]

60. Her name has been leaked and it's in the article.

So it's out there and the media has already descended on her home. If charges are brought, guess we'll see her face too.

[girl gone mad]

63. There's something really wrong...

with 5 men teaming up to have group sex with one girl. Gross. I'm sure it probably did feel like rape to her afterward. Not that it excuses her making false accusations. I think these men are as mentally disturbed as she is, though.

[LisaL]

68. But US laws don't demand 15 years to life for group sex.

[girl gone mad]

196. Who said they should? n/t

[BlooInBloo]

71. I take women at their word when they say it's THEIR RIGHT to decide what to do with their body...

And wouldn't criticize a woman who freely chooses to use her own body to screw 5 guys.

I would criticize such a woman for calling it rape, however.

And the idea that men are to blame for what a woman freely chooses to do with her body, exercising her own rights, is pretty low.

[omega minimo]

216. Well BlooInBloo, why is no one here capable of thinking about what happened during the group sex

Whether between giving consent and reporting rape, something happened that was NOT consentual, was perpetrated by one or more of the men and WAS rape? Do five men in that "fantasy" listen to a college freshman girl.... Why are the guests in your OP incapable of thinking this through in any objective and reasonable manner? How can they possibly assume they know what happened?

As for my sanction on your posts -- I would ask only that you use your remarkable gifts for good, not evil.

[Touchdown]

373. We are thinking about it. You are imagining shit that isn't there.

You? Objective????

[Gwendolyn]

74. Some people are voracious in that area. So what?

Lots of men can only dream of having a bunch of females pile on them some day, and lots of women also fantasize about group piling onto a man. So what's the diff? While most people don't entertain it past a fantasy, who cares if they actually go ahead and do it? It's not against the law, and those who don't care for it, don't have to participate. I think sexual prudes are probably mostly mentally ill, and that and a couple of bucks will get me a skinny latte.

[girl gone mad]

194. You're free to think what you want and I'm free to think what I want.

I wouldn't date a man who ran a 5 on 1 train on some dumb 18 year old. I think it's gross and the men who participated are creeps. Call me a prude for thinking that if you like, I don't give a fuck. I know what I want in life and a control freak with STDs and sexual baggage is not on the list.

Not sure what your rant is about, other than wanting to insult someone with a different opinion from yours.

[Gwendolyn]

206. You aren't the girl. What you would or wouldn't do has nothing to do with her decision...

to have sex with 5 guys. You're projecting your own morals onto others and thank Gawd you're free to think what you want but the rest of us don't have to live by your rules. And I didn't rant. There was a lot less emotion in my posts than yours appear to have.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

78. Really?

That shit happens every weekend on college campuses and military bases. I see nothing disturbing about consensual sexual activity between 1 or 20 individuals.

[Codeine]

81. Some people like group sex.

Honest to goodness! Men and women both. Why this should shock progressives is beyond me.

[WestSeattle2]

108. I like group sex, I just can't find a group that likes me.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

92. Isn't that the same reasoning behind homophobia?

Some people have consensual sex you don't agree with, therefore there's something wrong with them?

[girl gone mad]

199. Being gay is not a choice.

Teaming up with 5 of your buddies to take turns fucking some dumb 18 year old in a dorm bathroom is a choice.

See the difference?

Yes, I definitely would discriminate against men who engage in this type of sex with a partner who at the very least was not emotionally prepared to handle it. I'm not talking about outlawing group sex. Why does everyone have to get so hyperbolic because someone dares to say sloppy 5ths is gross? Cut the drama queen bullshit.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

221. I'm sorry, you misunderstood me.

That was a rhetorical question.

Yes, it's the same flawed thinking.

[girl gone mad]

257. Nope. I just called you out on your usual overripe bullshit.

I'm repulsed by the thought of my parents having sex, but that doesn't make me a homophobe. Neither does my repulsion to beasteality. Your flawed thinking is on par with Rick Santorum's. Guess what, Rick? It's possible to support gay rights and still be personally disgusted by certain sexual behavior. I bet there might even be a gay person in the world who thinks these guys are douchebags.

Keep the dumb non sequiturs coming, though. I'd expect no less from you.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

330. Well sure.

It's possible to support gay rights while being disgusted by gay sex. But it's still homophobic.

[Touchdown]

376. Not this one.

Because I know the wide variety of sexual interests among the human race. There are women who like group sex just as much as the horny boy's club does. There are women who like sex with animals. There are women who like being tied and beaten.

This gay man does not judge others on their interests/fetishes... unless it's a Quack slicing off a newborn's foreskin. That is sexual perversion and pedophilia.

[PVnRT]

316. "Some dumb 18 year old"

Wow. That says all about your attitude that I need to know.

[Czar One]

77. What were the five GUYS wearing?

Those young men should not be prancing about, inciting girls to feel lust. Burkas for these men! BURKAS, I SAY!

[Touchdown]

378. Nothing, if they were doing it right.

Knowing teenage boys though...

[WestSeattle2]

106. Filing a false police report should carry the same sentence

as what the accused would serve if found guilty. If rape in New York state carries a five to ten year sentence, then that's what she should serve.

[Odin2005]

187. The perfect way to silence actual rape victims.

If rape victims are afraid of going to jail because the rapist gets off because of the dumbass jury and a slick-talking, victim-blaming defense lawyer most of them won't bother.

[EOTE]

425. How about in cases where it's provable the accuser lied?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that accusers should be locked up because of any slick talking lawyers. But in this particular case, it has been proven that the accuser lied well beyond a reasonable doubt. If those boys hadn't had that video tape, their lives would have been ruined. How is it fair that this miserable asshole nearly ruined their lives and had these boys arrested and doesn't pay a price for it? Men who are falsely accused of rape suffer every bit as much or even more than rape victims. Why shouldn't victims of false rape accusations have some kind of recourse? Do you honestly believe this girl shouldn't be punished severely for the crime she committed?

[Jennicut]

111. I heard on CNN that this young woman had a boyfriend and may have made up the story

because of him...rather then admit she had cheated on him.
Its horrible because like many said, it makes it harder on the women who actually have been raped. I was molested as a kid and too afraid to tell anyone. Thankfully it only happened once, can't imagine full out rape. Its very hard to have women actually report it to begin with.

[subcomhd]

116. So how come

we know the victims' names and not the perp's?

[LLStarks]

130. As a Hofstra student, I'm disgusted how the female student felt compelled to bring shame to my uni.

Lying about rape is pretty low.

[Forkboy]

156. This thread almost makes me wish I hadn't gone to see any bands tonight.

Almost.

[BlooInBloo]

158. It actually started well. I think it started going downhill when....

people started saying it was STILL rape, no matter what the woman + video say.

That surprised me, as well - I wouldn't have predicted that.

[tammywammy]

164. You should have

There will always be a presumption among some here that even if there's video and a recant the woman was STILL raped. I learned that after the whole Duke lacrosse incident, there are still people on here that think those men were guilty.

[BlooInBloo]

169. (shrug) Live a little, learn a little.

[tammywammy]

173. Well, the Duke incident really opened my eyes

to how some on DU will always perceive the woman as right and men as wrong.

[Gwendolyn]

186. Some feminists/fishwives are pretty militant about what sex should entail.

I knew it would progress as it did, and the comments are always a hoot.

There's a presumption that the only acceptable sex is (as you and someone else stated earlier) supposed to be between an extremely intuitive, sensitive male and a woman. Vanilla-scented candles, rain pattering against the pane, and rose petals strewn about the room are a must. Missionary isn't even acceptable since the male is on top. The side-to-side position is more egalitarian and no more than a gentle rocking motion is acceptable, otherwise the woman is being over-powered and denigrated.

Any woman who likes to rock with more than one person, enjoys bondage, role-playing, etc... is a victim of patriarchal influence. Either that, or she's such an innocent fairytale garden waif, she doesn't know what she's doing and must be protected from harm by the wiser women.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

215. Also, women NEVER watch porn....

...unless some sleazy rape-fantasizing boyfriend/husband forced them to.

[woo me with science]

273. You are now my favorite poster ever!

OMG, if you are not writing current events and sociology for a living, you should be!

[Gwendolyn]

396. I enjoy your posts too WMWS!

[snooper2]

290. thanks for the morning laugh!

"Vanilla-scented candles, rain pattering against the pane, and rose petals strewn about the room are a must."

You should write a book

[Gwendolyn]

397. I was having late night giggles reading this thread...

... and thought I would share.

I forgot to mention that all of this is Madonna's fault, though. It's the one thing I've learned.

[PVnRT]

317. Nicely played

[Gwendolyn]

399. ...

[Forkboy]

166. It's why I stay in my fortified bunker.

I keep an embroidered pillow in it that says, "Avoid everyone."

[omega minimo]

218. No one knows what actually happened. No one here does. Yet they spout off as if they do. That's the

shocker.

It's shocking -- even now -- that Dems and progressives and liberals are so ignorant about sexual abuse and sexual crimes. So ignorant and so intolerant, so unwilling to view the issue with some objectivity, some compassion and some valid information, before making judgments and knee jerk accusations.

[naaman fletcher]

246. We do know.. there is a video that showed that she lied, and she recanted.

What is so hard for you to understand about that?

[Dorian Gray]

260. There is a video

proving that she wasn't raped.

Upon viewing of the video, which proved she wasn't raped, she recanted her accusation. The men were released.


How you can insist that she was still raped after that, I don't know. The whole situation is tragic, but these men were falsely accused, and their lives could have been ruined. They are all over the news. Both their names and photos. Their lives can still be ruined because SHE lied.

There was no rape.

[omega minimo]

353. That's NOT true. Get your story straight.

"Upon viewing of the video, which proved she wasn't raped, she recanted her accusation."


WRONG.

I said, ’If there is a video, and I get that video, it’s going to show me that what you’re saying is true?’ " asked Madeline Singas, the county’s chief sex crimes prosecutor.

The 18-year-old woman sat silent for several long moments, Singas said. Then her story veered wildly and fell apart. As soon as the woman admitted she had lied, Singas rushed from the room and picked up the phone. She had only minutes to stop a detective who was headed to get a warrant signed for evidence in the case, and then to arrest a fifth man in the case.

"Once she recanted, we had to stop everything," Singas said.

At the time, prosecutors had not seen the video. However, late last night they obtained a copy, which officials said confirmed the woman’s admission that the sex was consensual. Prosecutors would not say how they obtained the video.


more:
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/national/northeast/vie ...



What did the video show? What happened in the bathroom? What did the video not show? Why is illegally obtained video being used as evidence? Why did she claim she was raped?

I'll bet there is more to this story. Making easy assumptions is much more comfortable, though. Carry on.

[EOTE]

360. Big freaking deal!

So she didn't see the video. BUT when she was made aware that a video existed, she recanted her story because she KNEW what the video would show. GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD, SHE WASN'T RAPED! Your defense of this woman really shows a lot about your character.

[subcomhd]

168. I had somewhere I had to be right after the OP

I knew when I returned in a few hours it would be burning brightly at the top of the page. I even knew why (people would claim it was still rape, though none of the participants say so.) I even guessed who would say it. I was not disappointed.

[BlooInBloo]

170. Damn. Maybe I should start paying attention to who posters here are....

Sounds like I'm the only one who couldn't predict it.

[LisaL]

178. But of course.

There was no doubt in my mind, that no matter what, there will be posters insisting this still was a rape.

[TexasObserver]

192. Admit it. Didn't you think, just for a moment ...

..."this will be the thread where everyone agrees: it wasn't rape, she saw the video and recanted, tragedy averted."


Then "oh, hell no!!"

[LisaL]

195. Not for a second. This is DU we are talking about.

[TexasObserver]

205. Seriously. What was I thinking?

[Forkboy]

181. Certain threads on DU are like well read novels.

No new surprises, but still entertaining.

[Odin2005]

189. I honestly don't know what to believe with this incident.

After what my friend went through accusations of lying about rape and "attention-seeking behavior" make me see red. I know it's not logical or rational.

Just because it looks consensual and looks like she was "enjoying it" doesn't mean she was.

[subcomhd]

197. This woman has done a great disservice to people like your friend.

nt