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As someone who was sexually abused as a child, I'm rather disgusted with ACORN and its apologists.

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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:57 PM
Original message
As someone who was sexually abused as a child, I'm rather disgusted with ACORN and its apologists.
Back when I was being victimized I told some adults in authority positions (one of whom was a child therapist) about it but this was the 70s so when my abuser told them that I liked to make up stories they believed him. I was under the impression that times have changed and the default expectation is to report any and all claims of child sex abuse. I was wrong. I rarely let stuff on DU get to me emotionally but I'm shaking with anger reading some of the lame ass excuses and rationalizations being tossed around here because ACORN is a "liberal" organization that has done some good things in the past. Jesus God, have people here lost their fucking minds?

What I saw in those ACORN tapes made me sick. When someone comes to your office, I don't care what your position is, and tells you they want to import children for prostitution you call the cops on them. You don't shoot the shit with them. You don't "play along" because you think they're joking. You certainly don't sit there and give them advice about how to claim underage Salvadoran girls as dependents and collect tax credits for them! There's no excuse for that. None.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. I heard a bad person worked at Denny's. They should close all Denny's
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Did I say they should close ACORN?
Funny you should mention Denny's. Remember back when it was revealed that they were discriminating against black customers and employees? It was a big PR mess for them and they made some big organizational changes.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. It was Denny's POLICY to discriminate.
Now let's see if you can figure out what the difference is.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. Yeah, and I think it should be a POLICY to report any and all suspected child abuse
Either ACORN didn't have a POLICY to do that or they did and several of their employees chose to ignore it.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Maybe that's why ACORN fired those employees?
:shrug:
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. Oh but the employees did nothing wrong, according to apologists on DU
They were just yukking it up with the College Republican Borat and his girlfriend!

And yet they got fired. Either they did something wrong or they didn't. You don't get to have it both ways.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. So why are you taking issue with ACORN?
As if we didn't know.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #37
86. Lack of critical thinking skills?
Is there some other reason I'm missing?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. Yes, a very big one.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
55. Question is, did they REALLY susupect child abuse?
If it looked to them (as it does to most people who have seen even the heavily edited clips) that this was not for real, what was there to report?
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Doesn't matter. Let the cops figure it out.
I have the same problem with Planned Parenthood, an organization I highly respect, when several of their offices got "stung" by the fundie girl who pretended to be a 14 year old rape victim seeking an abortion. WTF didn't they call the police? Again, let the cops figure out what's going on.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #58
65. So if I told you I was the 20th hijacker, but changed my mind,
you would feel obligated to report me to DHS, even though I am a middle-aged overweight white American?

If they had NO REASON to believe what was said was true, then WHY would they call the cops?

Has anyone talked to the office workers in question to get THEIR side of it?

Oh, yes, one of them said she knew she was being punked and played along - why, she didn't say. Maybe she thought it was some kind of gag that would reveal itself when it was over, and when she found out it wasn't, it was already on tape. But what the people asked was SO absurd, how could ANYONE take them seriously?

It WAS a set-up. They perpetrators knew it was a set up. The workers, I believe, knew it was not for real.

Mount Molehill.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Assuming your scenario is true, and it might be.
The employees were colossally stupid to sit there and play along. They are ACORN for god's sake. An organization that is under constant attack. Again, I think they should have called the cops but they could have at least told them to beat feat.

And if we're going to go by the appearance of the pair, they look like a couple of healthy, affluent Yuppies. Not the kind of "crazy" people who tend to hang out in ACORN offices.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #58
92. Y'know, folk really oughta use intelligence about what they report t'th' busy local police
Th'guys in blue in m'town are up t'their eyeballs already n rilly wouldn't appreciate unneeded paperwork

Y'start reportin every possible "might could be a crime" y'hear about t'the police n y'could waste a lotta time talkin t'glassy eyed uniforms who know y'don't believe a word o'what y're reportin

Should I ha'called th'police everytime I ever heard somebody singin th'old Commander Cody song I'm gonna hijack one o'them big jet planes n goin back t'Tennessee? I don't think so

One o'm'friends used to regularly say We oughta line em all up against th'wall n shoot em whenever he heard th'latest Republican initiative. He was a nonviolent pacifist n there was no chance in hell he was gonna shoot anybody. Should I ha'called th'police n told em he was makin death threats whenever he said that? I don't think so

I was workin on a political campaign once n a staff member looked up n said Man! this is borin! Let's go rob a bank! Should I ha'called th'police? I didn't think he was gonna rob a bank, n (surprise! surprise!) he didn't rob any banks. Should I ha'called th'police? I don't think so

I dunno how many times I've been in a bar n overheard somebody say Oooh! I'm gonna kill him! Should I call th'police whenever that happens? I don't think so

Y'gotta use y'r good sense when y'interpret what people say. When folk talk crap t'me, I sometimes talk complete crap back. It sounds t'me like that's what happened here

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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #92
100. WTF is with the cutesy "accent" in your post? Dumb.
Y'gotta use y'r good sense when y'interpret what people say. When folk talk crap t'me, I sometimes talk complete crap back. It sounds t'me like that's what happened here

Right, what the ACORN employees did was the height of good sense. :eyes: Gee, something tells me if they'd called the cops right away instead of playing along in the hopes that Ashton Kutcher was going to burst through the door any minute not only would they not be in trouble but they'd probably still have jobs.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:25 PM
Original message
Abbreviatin saves space typin. I'll duly note y'ignore m'common sense point
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
104. It's hard to get your point because it's being made in Cockney
So you're saying the fired ACORN workers were demonstrating common sense? Really?
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. It's ordinary English w'some obvious contractions. I'll duly note y'ignore m'common sense point
which's, o'course, that (contrary t'yr POV) nobody should bother th'busy police by reportin mere BS
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #105
112. Of all the rationalizations being made to defend the ACORN employees
The one about how they shouldn't have bothered the police is the lamest. But whatever, assuming your premise is correct, why was it a good idea for the staff members to play along with the pair the way they did? How's that working out for them?
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #112
117. It wasn't a good idea. it was stupid. they got fired.
But you are off joining the right in their assault on acorn despite the fact that they fired the employees who played along with the rightwing asshats pretending to be whorehouse proprietors. You have yet to provide any evidence at all that the organization ACORN condoned in any way the behavior of the employees they fired.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #117
121. You are engaging in a strawman argument
You have yet to provide any evidence at all that the organization ACORN condoned in any way the behavior of the employees they fired.

I don't have to provide any evidence that they condoned it because that's not what I'm arguing. What I'm saying is that the entire organization either didn't have a standard policy to report all allegations of child abuse or they did have one and weren't doing a good job of training their staff to follow it. Sorry but the "few bad apples" excuse doesn't cut it with what happened here and the accountability lies with the people at the top. ACORN obviously realizes this because they just announced a hiring freeze and internal investigation.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #121
126. Have a look in the mirror. nt.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #112
134. Yr claim in #58 is folk should report possible crimes even when they don't really suspect crimes
Y'say let th'police sort it out

Sorry y'don't like m'disagreein w'that, but th'POV is just nuts
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #134
158. So they should sit there giving advice on how to commit crimes instead.
Is that what you're saying?
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kjackson227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
47. Hello_Kitty, those employees should have to face...
the consequences, but just like Denny's made some big organizational changes, ACORN needs to also. While what happened was absolutely despicable, I just feel that the whole organization doesn't have to be dismantled.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. I don't think they necessarily have to be dismantled but they need a serious overhaul
And if they can't get their shit together after a reasonable period of time they should go away. They are far from the only liberal organization out there that, despite people here acting like they are. I work with nonprofits and I can rattle off the names of 15 to 20 organizations right here in Phoenix who do what ACORN does.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
25. "UNION YES" and you support ACORN?
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
64. A classic straw man argument. Very disappointing.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #64
72. (shrug) Apparently I'm a rapist, so straw men are the least of my worries.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #72
84. Too bad. I thought you were more serious-minded, guess I was wrong.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:54 PM
Original message
Where did I call you a rapist? I called no one a rapist.
That's a shockingly unfair statement for you to make. I called HiFructose out as someone who talks like a rapist but I made it clear that I don't know what he does IRL.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
123. Since you specifically asked...
In a court of law, you would certainly be acquitted. In normal life, not so much. The rationale (or lack thereof, more relevantly) would apply equally well to me.

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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #123
125. That picture shows that I wasn't talking to you.
I was talking to another DUer and referring to his posting history. Rule Number One Of The Internets: If a post isn't about you then it isn't about you.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #125
127. Yes, I addressed that fact.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
77. any place that commits crimes should pay a penalty. what they
did on that film is a crime. That douchebags made the film doesn't change that. It pisses me off that they have people like that around. They need to purge their ranks.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #77
82. I see from your avatar and your profile that you're from Alaska.
When are you going to going to turn yourself in for Sarah Palin misappropriating funds?
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #82
139. ha! nice try. as for you, tell me what state you are from and we can
have a little fun. As for me, anyone in any organization that breaks the law is a crook and needs weeded out. The organization needs to go after Fox for making this seem systemic. Bite me otherwise.
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madmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #77
148. Who commited a crime?
The filmmakers certainly did, at least in some states. What crime did the ACORN employees commit?
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. Unrec this all the fuck you want but know that you are defending the indefensible. eom
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. good post
the apologists have moved from "it's a setup" (the marion berry defense) to "well, other orgs have corrupt people TOO" defense.

it's simply astounding.

i'm with you.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. The Position That
"other orgs have corrupt people TOO" is a perfectly reasonable defense against the actions being taken against the whole ACORN organization.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. not to somebody who looks at the case facts thus far
which is why i stand with john stewart's assessment, which is what i have been saying for days.

there is ample evidence of institutional corruption here.

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Provide one piece of evidence for institutional corruption.
Have you got an internal memo on how to give advice to pimps?

A case where employees giving advice to pimps were protected by management?

Anything?

No?

Well there you go.

Non-issue.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #35
53. That's a bullshit strawman
There doesn't need to be evidence of any such policy. The policy of every organization that works with the community is that any and all allegations of child abuse need to be reported to the proper authorities. I know you wouldn't agree to such a policy because rape and abuse are funny to you but that's what it should be.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #53
67. I don't think you understand what the term "strawman" means.
This person claims that there is strong evidence that ACORN is institutionally corrupt.

This person needs to provide evidence for their accusations, or else their accusations should be assumed to be false and that person making the claims is out for a witch hunt.

"I know you wouldn't agree to such a policy because rape and abuse are funny to you but that's what it should be. "

Case in point.

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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #67
95. I guess you need to take that up with ACORN
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Looks like they're doing a witch hunt on themselves.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #95
111. Actually, no.
I need to take it up with the person making the false accusations.

The fact that ACORN is running internal investigations is not evidence of institutional corruption. In fact, it's evidence against.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #30
70. Institutional Corruption
meaning that ACORN coached their employees to be an enabler to illegal operations?

If so, none of the offices except for those four seem to have got the message.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #70
124. That's not what's being alleged. Stop with the bullshit strawman.
ACORN either didn't have a policy in place to report all allegations or they do have one and weren't doing a good job of training their employees to follow it.

Try visiting your local school and telling them you want to enroll your underage Salvadoran prostitute "ward" in classes. See what happens to you. Why? Because schools have policies about that now.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #124
152. It is Undoubtedly True
that ACORN did not have a policy to "report all allegations." It is also undoubtedly true that they did not train their employees properly. ACORN does not seem to be a tightly run ship.

But what is being alleged is "institutional corruption." The fact that most of the offices refused to help shows that it was not ACORN policy to enable illegal operations.

I am sure that ACORN would love to have a disciplined, educated staff with intergrity and high morals. The leaders may have those qualities, but that is not the pool they are drawing from when they look for paid help off the street. They are staffed by people from neighborhoods where illegal activity is commonplace, and where the police are not viewed as someone to be called when they see illegal activity. It is endemic to that part of society.

I have no problem with the criticism of the ACORN employees or with Congress pulling federal funding. It just does not add up to institutional corruption.
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Rude Dog Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Ah, here it is again.
Anyone who doesn't want this continual distractionary bullshit is "defending abuse".

Love the complete lack of any logic or reason in this.

How much are you being paid to distract us?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Yup. It's impossible for rational people to take this seriously.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #11
143. That's rich coming from you.
:eyes:
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. That's very nice but those employees should have called the cops on the pair.
Because that's what you do when you work for a community organization and someone tells you they want you to help them import underage girls for prostitution.
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
60. When you're driving down the street and you see a prostitute on the street corner, do you call the
police?

Or is your poutrage just selective?
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. Good question, wonder how many will be honest?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #63
113. If I knew it was a child prostitue I might well
an adult, no I wouldn't.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #60
130. If a prostitute were hooking right in front of your house do you call the cops?
:shrug:

I don't know what the point of your analogy is so we can just keep it going.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
133. Then fire the employees. Stop supporting the rich, white narrative.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
29. Political Heretic knows the score
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. As a pimp, I'm laughing that people are pretending to be upset by this nonissue.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
27. LOL!
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
144. You, one again, prove yourself to be an obnoxious ass.
:puke:
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. Your right..
But to some in here, their politics are more important than anything else.


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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
9. ACORN's policy was/is to sanction child abuse?
I didn't know that.

I see the right has once again managed to score a major victory. How did they do that? When will we wake up?
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. i dont see it happening... they have sucessfully destroyed th schools.. where'd it happen. >link>
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 01:10 PM by sam sarrha
states like SC have an average IQ of 86..
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.anthropology/msg/686...

41) Alabama.......................90 $16,220 Bush
(42) Louisiana......................90 $15,712 Bush
(43) Montana.......................90 $16,062 Bush
(44) Oklahoma.....................90 $16,198 Bush
(45) South Dakota................90 $16,558 Bush
(46) South Carolina..............89 $15,989 Bush
(47) Wyoming......................89 $17,423 Bush
(48) Idaho............................87 $16,067 Bush
(49) Utah.............................87 $15,325 Bush
(50) Mississippi....................85 $14,088 Bush
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
56. Apparently it was the policy of several of the employees.
Which means that ACORN hadn't bothered to train them to take any and all allegations of child sex abuse seriously. Even if they think it's a joke. Let the cops sort it out. This isn't about the right scoring a victory. This is about me being disgusted at ACORN and the people defending them.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. ACORN didn't do it... those *few* employees did.
Do you really think that training will ensure that *no* employees *ever* do bad things? Really?

And the vast majority people defending ACORN are not defending those few employees, and you damn well know it.

This is ridiculous.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #57
73. Yep...just a few bad apples
I am NOT blaming ACORN for their actions. But I am disappointed, very disappointed, that ACORN has not responded by announcing a top-to-bottom audit of all their staff, new hiring standards and so on. I support the idea and existence of such an organization, I am not calling for them to be shut down, but they clearly have massive problems of quality control.

The heat is going to be on ACORN until they hold a news conference and make an unreserved admission of Epic Fail.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #73
79. I agree that ACORN handled this badly... they should be learning a lesson.
I just can't stand this dumbassery about smearing ACORN and anyone who's standing up to this RW bullshit because of those few bad apples.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. I think you missed the sarcasm in my ost title
Generally, we on DU do not accept the 'few bad apples' argument when it is raised in defense of right-wing goals. We should hold Acorn to the same standard that we would hold our opponents to, and if they don't admit and take immediate action to rectify the failures in their organization - and firing people is NOT enough for that - then they own the problem.

ACORN needs to show that not only does it have a policy of no helping people to bend o break the law, but that if someone comes in proposing such illegal behaveior, even if you don't or can't take them seriously, that ACORN's policy is to escort them off the premises and/or call the police, not engage in witty banter with them at the expense of legitimate business.

I'm sorry, but all this whining about 'they were set up, those videomakers are horrible douchebags' is beyond pathetic. I don't care if ACORN's new policy is to make every employee watch Borat and hire their own mystery shoppers, but they need to take ownership of the problem, admit they didn't vet or train their staff properly, and implement a solution. If we don't demand that, then we lose all moral authority when asking that of our political opponents.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #81
85. That's too bad, because the "few bad apples" does apply here.
Unless you think the orders to participate in scams were diligently researched from on high, and sanctioned by ACORN's leadership.

Do you?

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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #85
101. there are sins of commission, and sins of ommission
failing to vet or train your staff in order to avoid the possibility of being party to illegal activity is a basic responsibility for any large organization, especially one with ACORN's stated goals. That's why responsible companies have HR policies and educate their employees about what's acceptable in the workplace, and why certification programs and professional ethics exist in the first place.

There are books, courses, and organizations devoted to ethics and good governance specifically for the nonprofit sector. Having a noble purpose does not exempt an organization for considerations of common sense, self-protection, or responsibility to its patrons and stakeholders. People in genuine need who rely on organizations like ACORN for help, as well as the honest and diligent ACORN employees are being hurt by this, and ultimately the responsibility for that lies with ACORN's management.

Any time management is trying to deflect the blame for a failure downward, it's reasonable to question the quality of their governance, regardless of whether it is a business, a non-profit, or the government.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. It's a simple yes or no question. Your answer appears to be 'no'.
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 03:26 PM by redqueen
And since you obviously don't think the orders to do this bad business came from on high, then you acknowledge that the "few bad apples" label applies fairly.

Thanks. Not that you honestly admitted it or anything. But I can understand that. Denial is a big deal.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #102
107. No, it's a false dilemma you presented, which attempts only to move the goalposts.
My point is that it doesn't matter that ACORN management did not explicitly approve or encourage scams. They have a responsibility to pre-empt the possibility of situations like this by vetting and training their employees appropriately. They failed at that responsibility. They can't prevent every wrong step or mistake by front-line staffers in their offices, but they can have policies for recruitment and training in place to prevent that, and they have yet to show that. They need to commit to a public housecleaning and rebuild their damaged reputation.

Your attempt to question it into a question of direct culpability for what field workers did wrong is a diversionary tactic - exactly the same one employed by RW apologists when they trot the 'few bad apples' argument for as a defense against organizational failure. It's not good enough for them, and it shouldn't be good enough for us.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #107
109. The reason it doesn't apply to the torture issue is because the torture was sanctioned from above.
The reason it does apply to this issue is because these acts were not sanctioned from above.

I really can't put it any simpler than that.

"goalposts" :rofl:
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #109
115. I did not mention the torture issue - there are multiple more appropriate comparisons
...so enjoy your straw man argument.

It seems the CEO of ACORN is a lot closer to my view than to yours:

"As a result of the indefensible action of a handful of our employees, I am, in consultation with ACORN's Executive Committee1, immediately ordering a halt to any new intakes into ACORN's service programs until completion of an independent review. I have also communicated with ACORN's independent Advisory Council, and they will assist ACORN in naming an independent auditor and investigator to conduct a thorough review of all of the organizations relevant systems and processes. That reviewer, to be named within 48 hours, will make recommendations directly to me and to the full ACORN Board. We enter this process with a commitment that all recommendations will be implemented."

Ms. Lewis is specifically ordering the following steps be taken effective noon eastern on September 16, 2009:


No new intakes will be accepted into ACORN's offices for service programs, effective immediately;
An immediate in-service training for all frontline staff has been ordered within 48 hours;
ACORN's independent Advisory Council will help select an independent auditor/reviewer no later than September 18th to review all of the systems and processes called into question by the videos.


I just posted a thread with this information, applauding Ms Lewis' decision to review and overhaul their governance policies.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #115
119. Yes, it's been posted a few times by now I'm sure.
And sorry, but conducting an investigation in no way means they're that it wasn't a few bad apples. Not by a longshot.

If you care to cite any other examples where the "few bad apples" label does or doesn't apply we can go over those if you wish.

The fact remains... it applies here.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #119
132. It's called accountability
I realize that after 8 years of Bush/Cheney people forgot about the concept of the buck stopping with the person at the top. But really, when you run an organization and the acts of a few of your members ignite a massive scandal (whether it's fair that it did or not) you take responsibility for what happened. That's what the CEO of ACORN did.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #132
153. LOL... boy you really are going out of your way to spread the RW theme on this ACORN shit.
Pat yourself on the back. You earned it.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #56
106. or the whole thing is a setup and you have been had
The employees who were trapped by this righwing attack were fired, so it seems obviously that even if the whole thing was a setup and even if the employees thought that they were being had by an obvious clown and were just playing along, ACORN felt that it was totally against policy AND FIRED THEIR ASSES. Your upset is idiocy. You have been had by the right. You should feel used and abused by them.
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BornBlue Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #56
128. You are missing an extremely important point....
you're above statements seem to indicate that you believe this type of request is commonplace and therefore should have set policy in place re: ACORN's lack there of. I am not taking anything away from the severity of child abuse, it is serious stuff. Common sense would lean toward calling the police, but c'mon, do you really think this type of request happens every day?

The sheer out of the ordinary nature of the request lends itself to being a farce. Policy by nature is reactionary...that is why we have so many stupid laws on the books. Something happened, people got upset about it, a law or rule was passed. It is this type of thinking that gets kids suspended for giving a hug or holding hands.

I am not advocating that all policy is unnecessary, but we have become a nation that has too many laws that common sense, good parenting, and a general sense of community covered in the past.


But don't you worry, I am sure ACORN will have a VERY specific policy on the books re: child prostitution after this is all over.
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masuki bance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
10. They called the cops in Philly, the others should have done the same. nt
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
14. this was a really tragic set up.. the people said they thought it was a spoof, everybody should know
everything you say will end up on youtube or faux.. the younger people where i work are never serious and have no common decency. i can see how it happened.

i totally agree with you, i was also abused... i haven't seen the video.. no one has the sense to link to what they post around here..
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masuki bance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
40. Here is Jon Stewarts take-
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-september-15-2009...

everything else is at big government dot com
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #40
131. link didnt work..>>Link>
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masuki bance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #131
136. Thx.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
15. I tend to agree
ACORN employees have done many good things in the past, and they have a reputation to uphold. There is no sense in jeopardizing it because you think a conservative Stephen Colbert wannabee is messing with your head.

If I was one of those ACORN staffers approached by the fake pimp, I'd show him the door and tell him to go straight.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Apparently some of the offices did exactly that, or called the police.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. Some? Most? Which is it? (nt)
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
20. Are you upset that the person didn't use you as a tax write off?
It seems like to many people around here that would be the biggest issue.

Sad.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
21. How terrible for you. And now, you are veing victimized, again by the Uers of DU
I am sorry that I can give you only one R.

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. She's being victimized again?
:rofl:
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armyowalgreens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Victims are not exempt from being criticized.
That's not how this works. We don't have to watch someone say disgusting things simply because they are a victim. That doesn't negate the wrongness of the OP.

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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. Obviously you're a rapist, then.
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armyowalgreens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. I really find it more disgusting that people take advantage of their situation...
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 01:21 PM by armyowalgreens
in order to further an illegitimate point.



On edit: Although I could be wrong. The OP could simply be mistaken.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. You can tell by the poster calling people who disagree rapists that it's not simply a mistake.
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armyowalgreens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. It could still be a mistake...
Delusions of grandeur can often be fairly radicalized when challenged.

But maybe I'm being naive.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #49
135. I can see that you feel very protective toward HiFructose for some reason
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 06:57 PM by Hello_Kitty
But the man has a history of posts mocking rape and DV victims. Yes, he has the mentality of a rapist. It's a shockingly common mentality. When I was in the Navy guys would brag about getting women passed-out drunk and taking advantage of them. One guy boasted about his trips to Thailand to rape 10 year old girls. We were stationed in Japan and what he was doing was perfectly legal at the time. Speaking of which, it was legal in the military and in many states to force your wife to have sex with you up until fairly recently.

One in 3 women is raped in her life. The estimates of men being being raped is as high as one in 10 in some reports. One in 4 girls are sexually abused, as are one in 9 boys. Rape exists and is prevalent because the rape mentality exists and is prevalent. It should come as no shock to anyone so I don't know why you find my comment about HiFructose to be so outrageous.


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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #135
146. +1
:hug:
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #49
145. HFPS has a history of defending date rape and misogyny.
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 12:35 AM by Odin2005
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
52. or maybe just an apologist for rapists
:P
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #28
44. I'm not claiming to be exempt from criticism.
I was not believed when I reported the abuse that was happening to me. I had thought that in the intervening years that people, particularly those in helping professions, were expected to take any and all allegations of child abuse seriously and report them to the proper authorities.
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armyowalgreens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. I never said that you wanted to be free from criticism.
I was addressing the other poster.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. I regret I have but one U to give to this bullshit
The right puts flaming shitbags on our doorstep every day, and every day we dutifully go out and get shit all over our feet, go back inside, and beat the dog. Who's the MORAN?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
26. As someone who was sexually abused as a child... I'm disgusted with this overly simplistic BS.
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 01:13 PM by redqueen
Those few people who didn't act right are to blame for this. Not the entire organization.

THAT is what the "apologists" are trying to convey to the "let's all dance to the M$M's tune" people.

NOT that it's ok to do blah blah blah...

Christ.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
32. Why is your rage only being directed against Acorn?
O'Keefe and Giles were the ones making the proposition to set up and operate a house of child prostitution. Your rage against Acorn in assisting this can only be justified by your rage against O'Keefe and Giles for proposing this. Without O'Keefe and Giles there is nothing to go along with. If O'Keefe and Giles proposal does not outrage you. Then your rage against Acorn is unfounded and irrational. But emotion doesn't always subscribe to logic an rationale. When it doesn't that is a problem you might want to seek help for. I don't mean that as a jab. It sound as if you have a lot twisted up feelings about your abuse that have been bottled up and the cork is about to Pop. If it hasn't already.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. O'Keefe is a disgusting creepy douchebag.
And if he came into my office talking smack about selling children into prostitution I'd be tempted to punch him right in his smug fucking face and I'd sure as shit call the cops on him. Right then. Let the police figure out whether he's joking or not.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. What are your thoughts on Jodie Foster?
Because she played a child prostitute in the film Taxi Driver.

I'm asking, because none of this in any way actually involves a child or prostitution.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #43
54. Jodie Foster is great but she has played in a lot of dumb movies recently. nt.
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #54
66. There might enough buzz for a remake of Taxi Driver
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #41
87. That happened in Philly. No charges have been issued.
Now where is your rage against the police?
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
38. I agree with you that when the topic of child prostitutes arose they had a duty to report it.
There can be no question that the ACORN employees had a moral obligation to report it when they learned of the alleged child prostitutes.


Prostitution involving adults is an issue open to discussion. Child prostitution is not. It's a violent crime, a heinous crime, and it must be reported by any responsible adult.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
39. I support you, but unless there is evidence of systematic support for these individuals

who were clearly in the wrong, I can't blame ACORN as a whole. But if there is evidence that criminal activity was to overlooked, then I think ACORN as a whole deserves to take a hit.

The latest excuses that the individuals were "just kidding around" are not sufficient.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #39
48. Thank you.
"They were just playing along with them" and "But Republicans/conservative groups/fundies are so much WORSE" seem to be the prevailing ones. So what? There's no excuse for this and isn't our whole point that we're the good guys so we're supposed to be better than them?
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
45. Even if these people were paid to "fail" on video as a RW attack?
The people with these videos are the people the cops should be called on.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #45
78. That wouldn't say much for ACORN's hiring strategy now, would it?
If you're going to be putting people in public-facing positions of responsibility, then as an organization you owe yourself and your staff a decent standard of hiring, training, and so on. If ACORN had their shit together they'd be able to come out and say 'no way, we train our staff never to help people cheat or do an end-run around the law, and here are our training materials and tests to prove it'.
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mariawr Donating Member (171 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #78
89. You don't know what's on the unedited tape...
people have worked on jobs for years and even preached and fallen short.
I don't see people calling for all churches and banks to be shut down.

This whole thing is a set up to defame a good organization. Faux Noise excels in lying about everything, it seems.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #89
93. "I don't see people calling for all churches and banks to be shut down." Read DU more. .nt
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EmilyAnne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
59. Were people on DU excusing the people in those videos? I haven't seen that here, but if they were,
I share your disgust.

There is no excuse for what those women did and said.

One thing that these videos seem to hint at is something that I haven't heard anyone mention.
The ACORN workers didn't seem very surprised by the mention of the underage prostitutes.
They seems a bit nervous or surprised that the pimp and prostitute were being so extremely open about their plans, but not about the plans themselves.
It makes me wonder if such prostitution is very common in the areas served by these ACORN offices.
Could it be that all around Baltimore, D.C., NYC and San Bernardino there are underage prostitutes that are so visible that its normal to some of these ACORN employees?

I watched this documentary called "Very Young Girls" on Netflix Instant Watch.
It was about just that.
Very young girls who have been pulled into prostitution.
Though the social workers did so much for these girls, they didn't necessarily call the police.
They did advise the girls who were planning to return to the streets, probably because they know the girls are not going to stop until they are ready.
Until then, they can at least be a tiny bit safer.
The social workers were always very clear about the dangers of prostituting as well as the immediate availability of programs and safe houses that the would always be open to the girls.
But, no, they didn't call the police.
I think there is a very grey area there.

Not that the women in the ACORN videos were acting like those social workers.
That was about tax evasion and trafficking.
And support was offered to the woman, from what I saw.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #59
74. I totally understand what you're saying
I could see them not calling the cops on prostitutes. But here was a guy claiming to be a pimp who wanted to traffic children for rape (because that's what it is - paid rape) and they were blase about it and giving him advice.
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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #74
94. the person seemed very accomodating
Perhaps if you have to deal with poverty day in and day out it can desensitize you to things. It's also possible the persons non-confrontational attitude is the reason why they were in that position to begin with. Normally it serves them as a social worker, in this case it made them look like a fool. People often fail when placed in ever growing absurd situations. See for example the career content of Sacha Cohen's work or the Daily Show.

The one women seems to know a lot about hiding money from your pimp. That's probably not a very nice picture of the reality of that persons life. I imagine there life didn't just get a lot better having lost their ACORN job.

I was not shocked to find in organizations dealing with a lot of poverty and drawing workers from those impoverished regions could find itself in the situations on those tapes. It's probably more a reflection of society in impoverished America than a condoning of the illegal activities these people seemed to condone. There is nothing funny about child prostitution, I have no idea why Jon Stewart thought this material was so funny last night :(



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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #94
98. I understand being desensitized to things.
But there's no excuse for giving a "pimp" advice on how to import children and sell their bodies without being detected by the authorities. None.
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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #98
137. there's a difference between understanding
and defending. I certainly understand how a person in an ever growing absurd situation can end up seeming to justify the obscene. I imagine psychologists might be able to give you a better answer for how these things work. (of course it's always possible this person is a horrible human being but somehow I doubt it). I understand to you it seems like 100 % of the time people should not be roped in by this stuff. But I think these types of interviewing tactics work. They only need work a few percent of the time to cause an up roar. You have to be careful when assuming you yourself could never be roped in. I imagine all these ACORN workers used to think the same thing. How do average Americans turn into despotic tortures? Most Americans claim they would never torture anyone. Yet studies show when placed in certain situations you too potentially can/will end up a torturer.

I think we all agree child prostitution is very wrong. It's based on that I rec'd your post. I think it's always important to point out we don't defend child prostitution. I don't see anything funny about two middle class white kids making fun of the poor (very often minorities) through an absurd prostitution routine. But as far as I know, no one at ACORN was discovered to actually be engaged in an actual real child prostitution ring. Any that ever are should be prosecuted.

Now tax evasion... that appears like that might be another story.

Good thread.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #59
76. Actually, it was about tax compliance, not tax evasion.
They were talking about paying taxes on illegal income, not about how to avoid paying taxes.
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EmilyAnne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #76
83. A ha! Thanks for the clarification.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #76
129. Oddly enough you do have to declare any income you derive from
illegal activity. So even the pimp and the prostitute is by law obligated to report their earnings from their illicit business venture.
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
61. I have not seen anyone apologizing for any "person" who worked for acorn
that are guilty be seen as someone to defend? This is about certain people not the whole organization one of which by the way has helped many many people who otherwise would not have been in a position to help themselves...


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Cid_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
62. You aren't going to change minds...
Some people still think Barry Bonds didn't juice either...

Ideological drive trumps intellect again.

Now, defending the deliberate enabling of child prostitution is a stretch but the mental gymnasts around here are well prepared. I'm with you, this shows deep flaws that run through the organization and if it isn't torn down then at the very least it needs a major overhaul.
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
69. Dont you know that if it is liberal and progressive
it is always right and good and that which is republican and conservative is bad. I always chuckle when I see the left walk in lockstep just as much as the right. It has gotten so pathetic lately that I can only shake my head and walk away.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #69
140. How true.
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #140
149. For me the issue is tribalism
and I am disappointed to see that the progressive community is just as guilty of supporting and defending their tribe as the right is...
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #149
156. You win the prize for most succinct, truthful assessment of this whole debacle.
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 11:12 AM by woo me with science
You are exactly right. It is the flip side of Free Republic tribalism.

This shit is making DU harder and harder to take. It can be cute when the issue is whether the goofball on the corner is justified in letting his dog shit stay in the yard. If he's a Republican, he's abusing the dog and polluting the neighborhood and being a cancer on society, but if he's a Democrat, he's a private property owner and giving a home to a needy animal, and the douchebags are those who criticize.

Not so cute when it comes to issues like corruption and child trafficking.
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #156
160. Yep
and it makes our arguments that less viable.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #69
155. Thank you. nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
71. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
75. ........
:hug:
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ConnorMarc Donating Member (196 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
80. This Will Backfire...on The Republicans
This constant attacking and attacking, nobody's falling for it.

ACORN will respond.

Its all good.
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mariawr Donating Member (171 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #80
90. Absolutely. Stay tuned. nt
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #80
91. The members of the Senate and House that introduced Bills to cut funding.
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 02:57 PM by Wizard777
They based that on the Contents of the illegal video's. It's is a crime to do that. It cannot be used as evidence in any government procedure. Not even by a legislative body. The Introducing Sen. and Rep. have drawn The United States, The US Senate and US House into crimes against Acorn. Being agents of the federal government. The federal government has a duty to protect them from crimes against them. Call the Chief Justice to the Senate.

Biden need to start the ball rolling by going to the Senate in his Official capacity as the President of the Senate. He must make a demand. Show me the warrant authorizing the interception of the conversations in the video's you have proceeded upon. Federal law specifically protects communications in places of business. Acorns reasonable right to expect privacy is specifically set in law. If they cannot produce the warrants. Then disciplinary actions need to be taken. The initiating members should be expelled from the Senate for the crimes. Pelosi should do the same in the House. SHOW ME THE WARRANTS!
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
96. K&R
I'll stand with you.
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
97. Don't cheapen it with this whole ACORN bashing. Bad straw man here. Not worthy.
Not. at. all.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
99. My problem with it is suspicion with the entire operation
That's why they chose the subject matter. They know it is the type of thing that gets people to forget all about the rule of law and innocent until proven guilty.

I bet it's a scam, maybe it's not, but the facts will tell. But the mere stating that someone might have done it and then using that whipped up anger and rage is a typical right wing tactic. This has happened countless times before.

Even if true, it doesn't mean the entire organization should be shut down. Just exise the guilty parties.
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
103. I just saw the video. I'm outraged and horrified.
I'm sorry this has brought up bad memories for you, Hello_Kitty. I'm even sorrier that it looks like things haven't changed since the 70s.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #103
118. Thank you.
I wonder how many people here have actually watched the video.
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
108. And YOU are playing right into their hands - do you think it's an accident that they chose the
pimp/ho/child prostitute angle?

They want you to react viscerally and stop thinking so that they can convince you to paint an entire organization with a broad brush when in fact the ORGANIZATION has nothing to do with the actions of these employees - NO organization can prevent individuals from acting stupidly or illegally 100% of the time - not even law enforcement, the military, or the airlines which vet and monitor all of their employees far more extensively than anyone ever does in the rest of corporate America.

Should we blame all cops or blame law enforcement agencies as a whole because a few of their members may be corrupt or engage in brutality?

That is NOT rational and that is EXACTLY what the R/W wants you to do - resort to irrational unthinking behavior.

Doug D.
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kickysnana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #108
110. Amen n/t
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ConnorMarc Donating Member (196 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #108
114. Yep...You Are Right
That Pimp/Child Prostitute getup was so bogus it was a joke.

No wonder the ACORN employees largely didn't take them seriously.

You think they were born yesterday?

I've been to some of those cities they targeted, used to live in the BX. If they are in the heart of the ghetto and two strange white people randomly come into the establishment looking for their services...its bogus.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #108
116. ACORN has just announced they are doing an internal investigation, as they should
They should also be subject to an external audit, since they get federal funding.

There is something wrong in an entire organization when at least 4 of its offices fail to report an allegation of child sex abuse to the authorities.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
120. Allowing yourself to be manipulated by obvious RW bs is probably bad for your health. nt.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #120
122. Allowing yourself to be manipulated by obvious RW bs can also get you fired.
Just ask those newly-unemployed ACORN workers.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #122
150. That was on them for failing their professional standards. nt
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
138. I'd like to see all the undercover interviews that group did to see how long it took them to find
a few bad apples. I agree helping to promote teenage prostitutes is horrible. And these people have been fired. Fact is you can find horrible people in any huge or small organization and it isn't the organization's fault. The right wing have had it out for acorn for years as they get people out to vote who make the difference between the GOP winning elections and democrats winning elections.

The economist did a story about MBA schools and how they now taught businessmen and women to attack not just their competators but everyone in their way to profit. This is just the GOP attacking an organization which is successful at what its' mandate is.

Republicans don't care how they win. Keeping the pooor disenfranchised works just as well for them as keeping the poor ill informed about Democratic policies. All they care about is power and winning. And cutting taxes.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #138
141. Apparently some of them did call the cops or at least show them the door
And I'd like to see the MSM spend as much time on them as they do on the offices where employees went along with it. But it doesn't change the fact that some ACORN employees advised a "pimp" on how he could hide income from his "prostitute" from the IRS and how he could set up a brothel with underage prostitutes. Perhaps if they had a rigorously enforced policy in place about reports of child sex abuse, they could have avoided this?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
142. +1
:hug:
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #142
159. Thank you Odin. I am aghast that people are still defending this. eom
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
147. Thank you very much, Hello Kitty, for posting this.
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invictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
151. K&R
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brendan120678 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
154. I absolutely agree with you....
Those ACORN employees had a duty and responsibility to report any suspected case of child endangerment as soon as the conversation turned to that. To not do so seems criminal.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
157. It is a sad day when political allegiances
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 11:25 AM by woo me with science
trump conscience.
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