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Let's face it, folks, ACORN 2009 is just like John Edwards 2008...

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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:23 PM
Original message
Let's face it, folks, ACORN 2009 is just like John Edwards 2008...
...in that, despite the loathsomeness of the messenger, despite the reluctance of many to pick on someone demonized by Fox and the GOP, at the end of the day, Edwards was history. And so is ACORN.

I hadn't watched the footage until today, to be honest--I thought this whole thing would blow over. But it won't. After the always-trustworthy Jon Stewart expressed his view that ACORN is a largely corrupt organization, I went ahead and looked at this stakeout footage. Given that it happened in several different locations in several different cities, it's actually a hundred times more disgraceful than I thought it would be--and it's not going to go away, nor should it.

These things happen. We wish they only happened to those highly deserving folks on the Right, but the world is unfair in that regard. And contrary to whatever the usual clowns are saying, this is not the end of liberalism, of the Democratic Party, of Barack Obama, of community organizing and outreach to the poor and needy in our big cities.

But make no mistake--for now, at least, and for me, it is the end of ACORN.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. not for me...
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. maybe the skeptics and apologists will listen to stewart
if he believes they are largely corrupt, cause god knows they wouldn't listen to the evidence.

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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. By those standards, there isn't a non-corrupt insitutiton in the whole world
ACORN has been organizing poor and working-class people since 1970.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Then they need a SERIOUS overhaul or another organization needs to take their place.
I'm with the OP on this. ACORN is finished.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:31 PM
Original message
i agree
the argument was "this is a setup. it's not real"

then it was "it was only ONE office"

then it was "well, at least some offices didn't comply"

now, it's "well other organizations are corrupt TOO!"

apologists know no bounds.

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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
44. Just because the right-wingers are making a fuss
Fascinating.

If I were in charge of the Dems, I'd come out swinging and remind the Republicanites of some of the corrupt organizations THEY get their foot soldiers from.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #44
51. What a great argument.
"They're corrupt, too!"

Sheesh.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #44
54. But our party's moderates don't like ACORN either. That money is for corporations.
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Pyrzqxgl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. I'm going to wait to have an opinion till things are a little clearer.
It's been my experience that any Rose I've encountered in
life has a few thorns. Maybe we're throwing out the baby
with the bathwater.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. i don't have a problem with that
that's perfectly prudent. i have a problem with people who are simply ignoring the evidence, trying to explain it away with deflection and silly speculation , etc.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
50. Stewart also called Joe Wilson's outburst "Truth Tourrett's"
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 06:53 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
I guess that's true too?

I love Jon Stewart, but he's a comedy writer who one goal: Be Funny.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. What's Jon's evidence that they're "largely" corrupt?
I find that claim puzzling.
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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Here's the list of crimes the repubs are spouting...
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 12:32 PM by TxRider
Repubs are out for ACORN...

Here's the list of "crimes"... Not including these videos the kids made.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/document-preview.aspx?doc_i...

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Do you think Jon uses RWnutbag BS as his evidence?
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 12:32 PM by redqueen
Oh I do sincerely hope that's not the case. :rofl:

btw - I'm not bothering to read that drivel... I was asking a serious question. Thanks though. ;)

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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. It's called the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
And a report they produced just last month...

ACORN is very much a target of the right, everyone on the right, without exception and with extreme prejudice.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #19
46. It's a Republican staff report, not a Committee report. The quality of the report can be judged
by reading it carefully: for example, the section "Political Activity" on page 10 begins It is undisputed that ACORN engages in politically partisan activity, which is footnoted as Glenn Beck, Investigating ACORN, Fox News, May 8, 2009. I didn't click the hyperlink there, because I don't really consider GB a credible source and couldn't care less whether GB said "ACORN engages in politically partisan activity" or whether he said "Everybody agrees ACORN engages in politically partisan activity"
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. "Is ACORN intentionally structured as a criminal enterprise?"
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 12:37 PM by redqueen
:rofl:

Jesus Christ... where'd you find that link?

As for the "crimes"... this organization gets what... $4M/year from the fed?

Blackwater gets how much? And what were their "crimes" again?

It's sad to see so many Dems get so easily played. Very sad.
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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. I'm in Texas.. I don't have to find those links, they find me.
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 12:54 PM by TxRider
The righties have it in for ACORN big time... Every last one of them.

They are convinced ACORN is just a diversion of taxpayer dollars to the democratic party.

Read the document at the link I posted.. It's pretty scary.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. So what? They're insane. Dems need to learn to stop readily moving to our back foot.
Don't bother wasting time with this kind of BS... go on the attack instead, with REAL ISSUES.

Christ... is this really so hard to figure out?
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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. Nope.. Just making it clear where the right stands on this an why
As I hear about it from them almost every day, especially about ACORN.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. I stay away from the 'dining room table' types.
I don't get those mails, and I don't bother attempting to have rational conversations with the type that sends them, either.
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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #41
53. Good for you
I choose not to isolate myself from different opinions and welcome discussion..

And not to isolate myself from family because of their political views.

To each his own.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. LOL... I don't consider idiocy "welcome discussion".
I don't isolate myself from anyone... I just tell them to keep the idiocy to themselves. :)
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Scruffy1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #23
56. Its laughable
You'd think that Du'ers would know better than to play the Fox game. Take some edited illegal tapes and some dumb comments by a low level employee and buy the Fox smear. Of course somebody should have been giving a heads up to every office on this latest Fox Hunt. The only reason that Fox picks on them is because they are poor.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. DUers have been asking "how high?" every time the media says "jump!" for years.
It's not so bad if you can appreciate the funny side. :)
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
48. Wait! They've stopped accusing ACORN of causing the financial market collapse last year?
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 05:54 AM by struggle4progress
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. the same evidence we've been posting and is staring everybody in the face
it's not rocket science here
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. So... because a few staffers acted badly... the whole org is "largely corrupt"?
Sorry, you'll have to do a lot better than that.

I sincerely hope this undercover taping stuff isn't what he's basing that claim on. If there was actual evidence unearthed that this was going on at many offices, that would be one thing.

This RW-funded BS is just that... BS.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. i'm not going to keep repeating the same argument
it's out there. stewart is right. any rational NON-partisan person should be able to see it.

the extent/repeatability of the experiment at multiple offices is proof enough of a culture of corruption

stewart, YET AGAIN, proves he's whip smart and reinforces my faith that some people can simply look at evidence and come to a conclusion that runs counter to their ideological bent.

good for him.

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. So... it's a few staffers at ... what percent of their locations which were targeted?
Got a statistic for that handy?

LOL
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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. It doesn't matter
If 6 SPCA offices were filmed agreeing to condone and support illegal activities and they receive federal funding it would warrant an investigation before any more funding was given to them..
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. Oh yes it does, if you're going to call them "largely corrupt." (nt)
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. Don't look now, but you're using the "Bad Apples" argument the White House made after Abu Ghraib.
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 12:59 PM by Bicoastal
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. Yes, I know. Only this time it makes sense.
Because the orders to conduct themselves this way were not diligently researched and sent down from on high in ACORN's leadership.

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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
5. if they had their own TV network
it would be irrelevant
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
6. It's amazing how much power Fox News has.
And most of the time their "news" is straight from YouTube or Twitter.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. It's funny because DUers bitch every time *other* Democrats jump at anything republicans say.
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
7. Your going on that evidence alone? I would sure hate to have you on a jury
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LaydeeBug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
11. Several cities? Link please? I thought this was just Baltimore, where the filmsters broke
a schlew of laws. The REASON acorn will NOT be prosecuted in Maryland is BECAUSE the filmsters illegally obtained the footage. They broke some FEDERAL LAWS too, if I am to undersand it correctly.

In Philadelphia, the filmsters were shown the door and a police report was filed.

I am curious to know the "several cities" from your OP.
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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
35. Baltimore, D.C., NY and LA so far I believe.
I understand there are likely two more at least to be released, if the righties around me are correct.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. Add San Bernardino, CA to the list
and apparently we're looking at up to 40 hours more of tape.

This woman in CA looks like a meth head, and she's got the title of "Lead Organizer".
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. "OMG! ACORN hires older women, who I don't think are pretty! Shut them down!"
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #45
55. Now add San Diego, CA
Your attitude is going to kill the party.

This latest one has the ACORN rep offering to use his family in Mexico to smuggle underage girls across the border. At what point does your sense of decency kick in? Do you have one?
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #55
62. ... Lagstein, ACORN's head San Diego County organizer, said the employee would give his side of the
story in the next two days ...

ACORN flap has a local angle
Border-crossing tips dispensed on video
By Matthew T. Hall
Union-Tribune Staff Writer
2:00 a.m. September 17, 2009
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/sep/17/acor... /

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kjackson227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
12. I'd hate to see the baby thrown out with the bath water because ACORN, in my opinion...
gets more things right than wrong. Maybe a new director is needed who will give more oversight to the organization.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. They got a big thing wrong this time. No excuse for it. eom
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
14. John Edwards is a good analogy.
I used to like him a lot but every time I see or think of him now I think "man, we really dodged that bullet".
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Not really... he's one person, in charge of his decision making.
ACORN is a huge organization, but it's only a few staffers at ACORN involved in misconduct (so far as I've seen, and such as it is).
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
16. Reich-wingers have been after ACORN for decades. It is the fact that ACORN advocates for the
poor and minority communities that makes them the enemy of the pukes and their idiot mobs.

ACORN could be 100% pure, without any manufactured "scandal" and Fucks & Fiends would still attack them. It is not what ACORN does, but who they are that drives the reich.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. No, it's who they reach and protect that drives the right crazy.
And now Congress has voted to leave them unprotected. How nice.
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kjackson227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. Yep, they were helping to eliminate predatory and fraudulent mortgage loans...
a long time ago. They put Wells Fargo in check.
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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
36. It is more because ACORN advocates for the democrtic party
And righties see ACORN as a federally funded arm of the dem party.

If ACORN was out pushing people to vote repub, they would be the darling of the right.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. And people here
would be calling for their heads, and rightfully so, because of this scandal and the others in the past (vote fraud convictions, embezzlement, whistleblower retaliation, and who knows what else at this point).
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #36
49. The source in your Republican staff report for claims of partisan activity by ACORN is Glenn Beck
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #49
60. What? Is Glenn Beck no longer a trusted source around here?
:rofl:
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
29. Let's face it folks, Al Gore will never win the Nobel Peace Prize.
These greek columns will doom Obama's campaign.
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Apples and Oranges and you know it.
And since when does ACORN's credibilty = Nobel Laureate Gore or President Obama?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Not apples and oranges.
I'm comparing one crazy, premature, silly, and wrong prediction to another.

This is like saying MTV is going to go off the air because Kanye's a jerk.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
38. ACORN is wounded and will have to rehab.
When you interface campaigns with the black community, you do it through their organizations, and ACORN is one of the top dogs.

They need someone to whip the group into line, to clean up some of the messes, and to set some inviolate standards that are enforced.

I think they'll clean it up and get it back into shape, probably in the next year. They've done a lot of good, and I'm sure they'll do so again.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:45 AM
Response to Original message
47. Aaargh. could we please not throw the baby out with the bathwater?
Yes, ACORN has suffered damage from this. Yes, they need to raise their standards for employees that deal with the public. Yes, they need better training and protocols, but ACORN has done good work for a long time serving a grievously underserved population.
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Beacho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
52. Let's Face It, ACORN is here to stay
They'll weather this storm, like they've survived other attacks and smear campaigns. The righties and corporatistas have been after ACORN since day one over 40 years ago. Why? Because they have the audacity to organize, empower, and defend the poor. That is their true 'crime' in the eyes of conservative assholes that see the poor as 'not real Americans' that are there to be disenfranchised and exploited at the ruling class' leisure.

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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
57. The "name" may go in both cases, but the people in the organizations will continue
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 08:38 AM by karynnj
Edwards is politically toxic - and he IS the center of the politic entity, John Edwards. That political team worked with Edwards to determine his detailed positions. The people who were around him in his bids for President have moved on - many leaving long before the scandal. Many will likely contribute to other Democrats' campaigns or administrations. All of likely in some way changed by being part of that team. Edwards very likely will never be a power, but it is possible that the people who created the progressive platform in 2008 - far from Edwards' own record - will stay in politics.

ACORN is a large organization - with many good people as well as the bad. The problem is that there was sufficient laxness that has led to various problems. The fact though is they are doing needed work.

I would assume that IF ACORN's name is too badly damaged, we will find most of the more talented people in ACORN moving to other outreach groups - or possibly spinning off the very best of ACORN into a new organization that will start with higher scrutiny on how things are done. Either way - either through ACORN itself or other organizations, these people
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
61. TOTALLY WRONG!
John Edwards was the LEADER of his organization.

These people were minimum wage employees.

John Edwards was NOT set up by anyone

These people were.

Unreasonable generalizations like yours are exactly what the right wing wants you to engage in.

:argh:
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