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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:13 AM
Original message
Racism exists in this country.
And it is a driving force behind both Wilson's outburst and the so-called "tea party movement".

For anyone who would deny these statements, I ask, "which one applies to you?"




Regarding President Carter's statement, there should never be an inconvenient time to speak the truth. Being on the right side of history trumps political convenience. Recognizing the racism that exists in this country may not be pleasant or "convenient", but for God's sake, isn't it about time we do?


Flame away.
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
1. Not one spark from me 'cause I agree with you. nt
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
2. Nice post, flamebait. Racism in the US is a myth.
Have you so little faith in meritocracy?

In this country, any well-placed Conservative white male can rise from the wealthy class to the super-wealthy class, so where's the racism?
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el_bryanto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
3. Who is denying that rascism exists?
The question is to what extent it motivates the political opposition to Obama. Conservatives would attack any prominent democrat, and certainly any Democratic President.

Bryant
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. So you disagree with my second statement?
That racism was a motivating factor behind both Wilson's outburst and the tea party events?
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. I do
Because unless you (and lots of other people as well) have some inside track...some amazing insight into the hearts and minds of Wilson and (ALL OF) the teabaggers...it's impossible to say with such certainty that those actions were motivated by racism.

Maybe some of the teabaggers are racists, but that doesn't mean they ALL are, as some here have claimed.

Just because some think they are...just because some want them to be...that doesn't mean they all are, racists.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Again, please quote me when I said that "all" teabaggers are racist....
And that racism is the only driving factor behind their "movement".

I said: " is a driving force behind both Wilson's outburst and the so-called "tea party movement"".

You disagree with this? You do not feel that racism is a driving force behind Wilson's outburst and the teabaggers?
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. You didn't, and I don't think I directed my comments at you personally


I'm saying "some people" or "lots of people" or "many people"

I don't think I ever used the word "You".

I'm talking about the many Du'ers who ARE seeing ALL teabaggers as "racists".

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el_bryanto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. Somewhat. I think that if Obama were pushing Tort Reform and had an R after his name
There wouldn't be nearly this level of hatred from the right wing. That's not to say Racism isn't in the mix.

Bryant
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
4. You're spot on
It's laughable to see the network talking heads try to spin their delusions away from that simple fact.
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CBR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
5. I will say this again, the fact that it is "bad" politically for
President Obama, the black guy, to discuss racism proves the existence of racism. Wouldn't want to offend the white teabaggers.
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joeycola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
7. So, who was pushing the mantra of 'post-race America"? I believe
for the most part it came from Democrats.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. There are two ways to achieve a "post-race America".
Dealing with the racism that exists in this country and moving on.

-or-

Ignoring the racism that exists in this country and "moving on".


I support the former.

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joeycola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
23. I believe racism constinues to exist in the US also. I do think
that too many were too eager to say that now that we have a black president -all is fine (post-race America).
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
8. Bang bang bang....
the sound of my head coming in contact with the nearest wall.

Nobody here has EVER denied that racism exists in this country.


It just doesn't exist in each and every negative action or statement made against Obama.

True, there are some really obvious examples of it.

But sometimes people pick out things that may or may not be racist and call them racist. Some of these things are questionable, at best, and some of them are just plain laughable when put into the context of "racism".

I think people who are seeing racism everywhere are having trouble with the idea that they can't put their fingers on who is, or is not, a racist, so they paint everybody who has a negative thing to say as a racist. It's just so much easier to accuse a whole lot of people of being racists because they can't possibly know what's in someone else's mind. If one person makes a remark because he's a true racist, and another makes a remark because he's just sort of clueless (and I do know lots of people who don't know what's appropriate), why bother trying to figure out what's in someone else's heart and mind? Just call 'em BOTH "racists" and then feel self satisfied in having accomplished some vague "mission".

yeah, racism exists. It's just not around every single corner.



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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Where did I claim racism was responsible for "each and every negative action...
or statement made against Obama"?

Please quote me directly.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. I didn't say you did, and I didn't mean to imply that you had...
But there are loads and loads of DUers who have been running around for the past few weeks seeing racism behind every single action and statement.

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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. There are also LOADS and LOADS
who bend their arguments into pretzels denying the elephant poop that's piling up. ;-)


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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. Amusing photo there...
and maybe somewhat accurate too, as a lot of what's being passed off as "racism" could be nothing more than a huge pile of elephant shit that can't even stand up to a good stream of piss.



Does racism exist in this country? Yes. yes. yes.


Is it the driving force behind SOME of the negativity toward Obama? Some...yes.


Is it the driving force behind every single negative comment or action against Obama?

NO.


See, I'm agreeing with people that racism exists...that it is likely a driving factor behind some of the negativity.

What I absolutely refuse to believe is that every single incident is caused by racism.

There are disturbing numbers of people on this site who DO believe that every single negative incident is evidence of racism and that it's all some big racist plot orchestrated by the evil Republicans.

I'm sorry, but that's just ill.








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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. Pipi_k, you keep shadow boxing with your own straw man
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 10:33 AM by Karenina
"What I absolutely refuse to believe is that every single incident is caused by racism."

NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE I've seen here is insisting that "every single incident is caused by racism."



"There are disturbing numbers of people on this site who DO believe that every single negative incident is evidence of racism and that it's all some big racist plot orchestrated by the evil Republicans."

Please substantiate your claim as it is an insult to the intelligence of many thoughtful people here.
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
15. There is no doubt that racism exists in this country, but I wouldn't go so far
as to say that racism is the motivation behind any and all opposition to Obama and his policies. I believe much of it stems from the fact that Republicans and conservatives were led to believe that they would have a permanent majority in government and they can't accept the reality that they are now in the minority. This group would oppose any Democratic leader, regardless who it was.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. "a motivating factor", not "the motivating factor".
I would not presume to know what the singular motivating factor is, and there probably isn't one.

But racism is in the mix of factors.
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crazyjoe Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
16. ok, so anyone who doesn't agree with you is a racist
let me know how that works out for you.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. No. I did not say that.
I would argue that anyone who doesn't think that racism exists in this country and has been recently apparent in Joe Wilson's outburst and the tea party movement is fooling themselves. They are either not listening, not seeing or refusing to speak about what they know.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. Only God himself knows what was in Joe Wilson's heart
when he yelled out, "YOU LIE!!!"

Not you, not me, and maybe not even Joe Wilson himself.


And only God knows what's in the hearts of the teabaggers.


Perhaps some of them ARE racists. But racism itself cannot...nor should it be...seen as the driving force behind the teabaggers.

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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Actions speak louder than words.
That he broke with decades of decorum afforded to every other sitting President to heckle him at all means more than the words spoken.

I don't pretend to know his heart, but fortunately, his actions negate the need for speculation, IMO.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. If actions speak louder than words, then why
are the words, "You lie!!!" being given such importance?


See, it's a contradiction to claim that actions speak louder than words, then bash the guy for his words.


What if he had stood up and yelled out something like, "I LOVE you, President Obama...you are totally right!!!"

Would his words, or would his actions, be the issue here?

I mean, seeing as "actions speak louder than words"...

See what I'm getting at here? People can't have it both ways. If "actions speak louder than words", then his words, "You lie!!!" should mean nothing. And even if he had stood up and yelled something positive, he would still be breaking decorum. Would a Democrat standing up and yelling something positive be "breaking decorum" also?

Can't have it both ways...







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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. I assure you that I would have treated, "[generic heckle]" the same way.
I don't understand your point about interrupting the President with actions or words expressing support. Clapping and standing ovations interrupt the President and have long been the norm in joint sessions of Congress. You could argue the first person to do this should have been reprimanded, but they were not and now these actions are the norm (which highlights why Wilson's actions needed to rebuked). Affirmative verbal exclamations are also supported by precedent.

So, Wilson's words, IMO, matter only insomuch as they were a heckle. For me, it was the fact he decided to heckle (or could not contain himself from doing so) the black President standing before him that is the problem. And yes, the fact that he is a black President makes a difference. The GOP, as much as they despised Clinton, were able to contain themselves when he spoke before them.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. Ah, the default DEFENSE mode...
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 10:59 AM by Karenina
"If actions speak louder than words, then why are the words, "You lie!!!" being given such importance?

Look no further than his past actions. They form what is known as a "pattern of behaviour." His past words inform the aware of a particular mindset.

What President Carter picked up on in a nanosecond was the unspoken "boy," AND the non-verbal subtext, "And WHO do you think THEY'RE going to believe? ME or YOU?

In former times, that was uttered ALOUD. These days it is just implied. Those who have sensitivity, sensibilities and a grasp of America's racial history, such as President Carter, hear that dogwhistle quite LOUDLY AND CLEARLY.

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Fastcars Donating Member (121 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. This may have been addressed elsewhere, but...
Didn't the Repubs boo Clinton during an address during the 90s? I know the Dems booed Bush in at least one of his State of the Union addresses.

It was definitely boorish behavior on his part. But to attribute it to racism is a reach. To attribute it to xenophobia would be appropriate IMO.
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Fastcars Donating Member (121 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Did a google search...
Found this on Slate:

"When Bill Clinton outlined his health care plan in 1993, for example, some Republicans snickered, shook their heads, made faces, and even shouted "no." And when George W. Bush claimed in his 2005 State of the Union that Social Security will be "exhausted and bankrupt by 2042," Democrats responded with boos. (At the time, several political talk-show hosts, including Ted Koppel of ABC, claimed such booing was unprecedented.) But last night may be the first time a congressman went beyond communal mutteringand interrupted the president with a loud and denigrating retort."

http://www.slate.com/id/2227966/
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el_bryanto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. That's just sad.
I mean there's a legitimate argument to be made against this, but come on - that's the best you can do?

Bryant
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Mudoria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
20. Racism is pervasive in every country...
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
24. Racism prevails in every country, every culture and is not limited
to white males that live in specific areas of this nation.

Ethnocentrism, (from where almost all of the "isms" are born), is everywhere, call it what you will, but it is an ugly part of humanity.



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Bonhomme Richard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
28. Racism exist everywhere. The difference is that the MSM give them a forum. n/t
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