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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 07:41 AM
Original message
WSWS (World Socialist Web Site) termed "sick and reactionary" by Marxists for anti-union disruption
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 07:54 AM by HamdenRice
Now explain to me why we allow a half dozen or more articles copied and links from this site to be posted here on a daily basis, but we don't allow the same for Rense, Prison Planet, Lyndon LaRouche and other lunatic sites?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Socialist_Web_Site
The World Socialist Web Site is the online news and information center of the International Committee of the Fourth International (ICFI). It supports and helps campaign for the Socialist Equality Parties in elections.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Committee_of...
The International Committee of the Fourth International (ICFI) is a Trotskyist international. Its affiliated parties are called the Socialist Equality Party and have sections and supporters in 6 countries. It is well known for its publication of the World Socialist Web Site, with content in 13 different languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Equality_Party

Workers' Struggles and the Trade Unions

Although some members<2> of the SEP are union members, the party does not seek to facilitate any sort of social change through the Trade Unions<3>, which they characterize as having interests antithetical to the workers they represent. The Party calls for a break with these organizations and the formation of "workplace committees" that will carry on economic struggles.

<end quotes>

It's an anti-trade union movement.

Period. QED.

http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/marxism/2002w48/...
The last time I checked out a literature table of this group was at the
April 20 antiwar demonstration.

The table carried material supporting the slander campaign against Hansen,
as well as the related slander campaigns against Jack Barnes and 11 other
SWP members
who attended Carleton College as CIA agents, and material
supporting the frameup of Mark Curtis, a meatpacker and SWP member in Iowa
who, while he was involved in defending immigrant workers arrested in an INS
raid at his plant, was railroaded to jail for eight years on rape and
burglary charges.

Also, the Socialist Equality Party appears to have a position opposing
unions and strikes
. While this formally resembles the sectarian positions
held by the basically defunct Socialist Labor Party, I think it is an
extension of disruptive activities the Workers League carried out at plant
gates, union picket lines, and other union activities
.

While the World Socialist Website may have its attractive features -- North
has a lot of rebuilding to do, after all -- I believe that what lies behind
it is as sick and reactionary as the Workers League ended up being.

<end quote>

WSWS various political organs are, as has been noted often anti-union, anti-strike, primarily dedicated to disrupting other left wing organizations, and is "sick and reactionary."

Hence the constant attacks on unions, Democrats, British Labour, European Socialists, Greens, and even Communists.

They are a tiny, narrow, sectarian, non-reality based group that chooses as its exclusive focus disrupting all other left of center political groupings, and uses lies, slander, falsehoods to "catapult the propaganda."
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. Unrecs -- but no engagement with the facts? typical! nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. 1) Looks at name of web site...
2) Looks at your post.

3) Scratches head.
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
20. I believe we are allowed to offer constructive disagreement
and also to post factual information no matter who it may cast in a negative light
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
227. people don't generally want factual information,
or even differing opinions, preferring rather information that conforms to their own prejudices.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. He's not the only one ...

I think his vision is just fine.

The difference between Hamden and many, many others is that he still has the stomach for it.

People who frequently post World Socialist Web Site tracts here typically end up in my ignore list fairly quickly, mostly because they don't seem to be able to do anything else *but* that.

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Thanks
"Stomach for it" is a good way of putting it. It's a filthy job, but someone has to do it!

:hi:

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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
29. Quite filthy, but you're right ...

You should get an unlimited supply of cookies and milk for this. :)

Seriously, back in college, I actually tried to keep track of the various factions at play here, and it got to be overwhelming in its scope. It was eye-opening to realize some extreme leftist organizations targeted some of the exact same things as extreme right-wing groups, only with supposedly more credibility than the right-wingers and for marginally different reasons. It eventually turns into a purity contest: which group is more pure to the ideals of "social revolution," or some such thing.

That way leads to madness.

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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. I hate to "ignore" anyone,
but I am close to adopting your technique rather than leaving DU entirely.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. I avoided it for a long time ...

But, eventually, it got to be too much. One particularly ridiculous exchange between me and another individual that lasted over several days was the last straw. Neither of us could let it go, so I just hit ignore and have lived blissfully unaware of this person ever since.

In a perfect world, I could just not respond. I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't use it a lot. The list is a very select few, but most of those on it do in fact like to quote WSWS quite a lot.
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #7
30. Then your complaint is that the DU admins and moderators
do not agree with your particular bias. I believe that the typical suggestion is that you can always find a site that better agrees with your views.

Also, it appears that there is ALREADY a function in place to cater to your delicate constitution and the need to avoid anything you might find distasteful: the ignore feature. You seem well acquainted with it already.

Nevertheless, none of what you writhe about has anything to do with whether the content is objectionable..except to your stomach. Should we also ban every spicy food that doesn't agree with you?
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. No, it is not ...

I'm always amused at those who write twenty words that supposedly summarize what I have said in ten.

I have no issue with the mods or admins, and I will thank you to keep your presumptions to yourself.

All I said is that *I* ignore people who post the WSWS tracts repetitively for reasons similar to why Hamden finds the site being linked here objectionable.

Please do be aware that your attempt to deflect the criticism of the WSWS into solely an issue of website administration is noted but not successful. The criticism of WSWS stands unless you have something to refute the ideas presented in the OP.

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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. So you admit that your complaint and the OP are merely subjective rantings
that remain unsubstantiated and are motivated by your own sentiment and bias. Turns out, we agree on the point completely.

Unsolicited advice I know, but you should try some Pepto for your stomach.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. Silly boy ...

Better people that you have tried to play this game with me.

All have failed.

Good day, "Kid."

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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. So then my reading of the situation stands
I agree that you're good at playing games..I bow to the master in that respect
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #30
100. That makes no sense
Roy was not arguing that he was upset that the mods and admins do not delete things he doesn't like. Fail.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
2. WSWS is to the left,
what Glenn Beck is to the right. Thanks for posting.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. They're actually much worse than Beck
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 08:40 AM by HamdenRice
Assuming in some alternate universe Beck got his way, there would still be a functioning government and society. If the SEP/WSWS got its way, society would collapse and be controlled only by worker committees controlled by, you guessed it, the SEP.

I would put them further out -- maybe with the Klan, Christian Identity, and other violent right wing groups.

Also Beck generally attacks ideological opponents on the left, like the Democrats. WSWS/SEP has historically focused almost all of its attacks on organizations of the left, which is nominally on the "same side."

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
45. It does seem to me that most of the stuff that gets posted here from WSWS
is targeted at the left.

Considering how critical it is to progress for fronts with similar goals to be united... well... hang on, let me get my tinfoil hat.
;)
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. It is important to be self-critical as well
For instance, someone rushing to get their tinfoil hat might stop and think for a second and decide "y'know, I might be a little stupid"
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #47
52. LOL... aw, aren't you precious!
Go play with the others who wish to humor your bullshit, kid... I'm not interested. :rofl:
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #52
68. You want RoyGBiv
hes the expert gamesplayer not me
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #52
209. They're always so cute when they are naive, aren't they? Especially the darlings that just
discovered Marx and Trotsky--I remember those days myself.

Then I grew up.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #209
221. *roffle*
:thumbsup:

Yes, it takes some longer than others to wake up to the ways of the wide, wide world... but hopefully most eventually do so. :)
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. Turns out the anti-union Trotskyite owner of WSWS is a millionaire! See below nt
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. Yeah... I was just reading that.
Stunning...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
245. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. What?
You don't enjoy the Most Honourable Tradition of bait games and pissing contest and in-fighting between leftists and their various parties, affilities, groups and Most Orthodox Dogmas, in the name of "best argument wins"-rationalism? :D

Oh, but you do... and like to play... :)
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. Sure. I did that to an inordinate degree in South Africa in 1980s
The neo-Marxists versus the Social Historians versus the Structuralists versus the Charterists versus Black Consciousness.

The difference is that the ground rules were that you had to be reality based. If you make stuff up, you are not allowed to play.

That's why, disagree or agree, Democrats, Greens, Naderites and Democratic Socialists of America can all play.

WSWS/SEP can't.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #12
93. I have my biases too
once been even a trotter, belonged to a revolutionary socialist party of a trotter tendency (IS, to be exact). But didn't follow up by jumping the neocon wagon... :D

Currently IMO few if any others besides "anarcho-primitivists" (in widest possible sense) are reality based... :)

How to resolve what is based on reality(TM) and what is not? Interested in a Socratic dialogue or some similar philosophical process to find out? ;)

Been also reading WSWS then and now and cannot concur with all what you say. For example, being anti-union. From what I read, SEP is critical of current (reformist) unions which it sees as tools of capitalistic state, suffocating strikes (rising from the bottom) and revolutionary sentiment of the working class. It does not mean that SEP is anti-union in principle - they would love SEP lead unions!!!. There is probably lot of validity to the WSWS critic about functioning of current unions and their leaderships, as well as hopefull thinking to current level of revolutionary spirit of the working class (not to mention SEP role as The Avant-Guarde Party leading The Revolution(TM) :D)









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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
5. Trotskyites suck.
Fits that the Neo-Cons are ex-Trots.
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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
9. A World News Trust Editor Has Been Running WSWS Content...
...on the WNT site, worldnewstrust.com. The stories have been quite good. I surely don't know about various branches of socialists, but you are condemning a good source.

BTW, I've been active in unions all my life, so I'm by no means anti-union. --Francis Goodwin, WNT managing editor
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
13. WSWS is an excellent resource.
Don't understand the animus, my Friend. The World Socialist Web Site provides real news and honest analysis from a more just perspective.

For instance:

Study documents nearly 1,000 lies from Iraq war propaganda campaign

Don't recall seeing too much coverage of the Center for Public Integrity study from Corporate McPravda.

As for the other "lunatic" sources of news and information, if it were up to me, I'd say: "Go ahead and post from them, as long as what they provide is true. And if it isn't true, putting it up in the open means people can see it for what it is -- a lie."
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. A broken clock can be right twice a day
Much of the stuff that has been posted here has fallen apart under a few minutes factual scrutiny.

Just because they have sometimes posted an article or two with facts, doesn't mean that they don't also lie repeatedly -- which they do.

Sometimes Rense gets it right also.
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. Your definition of "factual scrutiny"
appears to be you aimlessly bitching about every article posted.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
28. How about that Wall Street Bailout?!!
We must be reading different clocks. Here WSWS told us about what we've since seen come very, very true:



In address to Congress
Obama pledges bigger Wall Street bailout


By Patrick Martin
25 February 2009

In his first presidential address to a joint session of Congress, President Barack Obama defended the ongoing federal bailout of the banks and pledged that even greater sums would be funneled from the US Treasury to support Wall Street.

The nationally-televised speech Tuesday night had two main themes. Obama sought to defuse the enormous public hostility to the financial interests responsible for the deepening economic crisis, declaring that he could not "govern out of anger."

SNIP...

This invocation of dual authorship of the crisis, the government and the people, is deliberately crafted to exclude the most important social category: class. It was not the "people" who created the multi-trillion-dollar casino on Wall Street, who profited from hedge funds, CDOs, credit-default swaps and other speculative devices.

Working people had neither the resources nor the demented drive for personal wealth accumulation required to participate in the looting spree conducted by the American financial elite over the past three decades. Any account of the crisis that equates bankrupt billionaire financiers and foreclosed working class homeowners as equally "irresponsible" is a travesty.

CONTINUED...

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/feb2009/obam-f25.shtm...



I don't always or even often agree with their politics getting between the lines, Hamden Rice, but I do think their reportage is honest. The reason: They tell the reader where they're coming from.

I wonder what their take is on national healthcare?

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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #15
44. Not to mention so poorly written one wonders why a person would link to it.
Often, it's quite clear that an article is based in BS simply from reading the article.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. Wha...wha...what?! You mean POLITICO didn't cover that? lol
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #19
32. Hey! Both sides jumped on the puke Weldon!
Unlike the Press Corpse, Weldon brought up something very important that WSWS was brave enough to cover:

9/11 commission told of Atta cover-up

Gee. Wonder why so many from left-to-right on the Politico spectrum want the then-active duty Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, USA to STFU?
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
14. The people that post from the WSWS have an anti-organized labor
bent, and have one more than one occasion stated that unions are supporting the oligarchs by allowing themselves to be co-opted by them.

It is obvious to me that they have never in there life have participated in a labor action, organizing effort, or strike against ownership in any way. They hate unions just as much as they hate capital.

And I agree, links to an anti-labor site should not be allowed here.

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Not just anti-labor, but anti-Democrat, anti-Green, anti British Labour, ...
basically anti every other progressive party or movement. Not only have such people never organized anything or participated in anything, they are marginalized in a tiny party that is too embarrassed to publish its own membership figures.

It would probably be five old guys and the FBI/CIA handler.
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. Are you able to detail who you are accusing of being anti-labor
and provide links to the "more than one occasion"?

So far this thread has been fueled entirely by Hamdens own bluster and red-faced hostility, but he is somewhat short on factual documentation, which is becoming an alarming habit for him. Maybe you can help him out. If not, I suggest that you may wish to refrain from joining the chorus of Hamden's tantrum in a teapot.

I agree as well that links to "anti-labor sites" should be monitored carefully, but you can't simply slap the moniker on sites by fiat and I also wonder how you are defining anti-labor in the first place. Is it only sites that are explicitly based around denigrating labor or would it also include sites that allow commentary against sell-out unionism?

The latter I think is a slippery slope
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. I will not call out members by name.
But I'm sure you know who they are.

And your comment on 'sell-out unionism' is telling. Who are you to define such?
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. The honus is on you then
to refrain from making comments that you are unable/unwilling to back up. Per above, Hamden certainly agrees because he tells us that it is all-important that one not "make things up"

As for sell-out unionism, I don't offer a definition. I merely note that there are people are opposed to it and that those people are hardly "anti-union" as a result. If you disagree and insist they are anti-union I ask: who are you to define such?
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #26
33. No, I am following the rules of the owners of this site.
I respect their rules, unlike others that link to anti-Labor, anti-Democratic sites.

Their political agenda is in direct conflict with democracy in any way, shape or form.

But, you know that.
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. Unnamed others, unknowns
who you brazenly and accusatorily insist I do know while hiding behind a hypocritical cloak of "I don't call out other members"..even as you do exactly that.

This entire thread is a witch-hunt and a smear campaign. I would think a union member in particular would be sensitive to such an outrage.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. You amuse me with your faux outrage.
I owe you nothing, but I'll give you this.



Have a nice day.
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. The phony outrage is all yours
a parting gift of sorts..it suits you
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #26
102. What does a long dead baseball player have to do with this?
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #102
132. Whats funny is that was exactly who I was thinking of
Is there such a thing as a benign Freudian slip?
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. What nonsense. Try the British "Independent": They hate unions, Labour, other Marxists
If you refuse to deal with facts, of course, it won't convince you. Those of us in the reality based community know otherwise. Here's what the Independent had to say about their British chapter:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/socialists-new-party-...

Socialists' new party strikes a left hook at Scargill

Barrie Clement Labour Editor
Monday, 25 November 1996

If Tony Blair looks down his political nose at Arthur Scargill's Socialist Labour Party, he will need a lengthy proboscis to con- template another newly-formed force on the left. The Socialist Equality Party, which intends to field up to 20 candidates in the general election, is a touch to the left of the organisation formed by the miners' leader.

An SEP communique sneers at the namby-pamby politics of the Scargill party and the Trotskyist Militant Labour. Such groups, the statement says, are an attempt to build on the discredited and reformist convictions of Old Labour and are subordinated to the bankrupt trade union bureaucracy. <HR: Yeah, like the SEP can compare its accomplishments to the accomplishments of the British Labour movement.> The SEP is to show its disdain for those who would merely tinker with the capitalist system rather than smash it, by putting up a candidate against Scargill's man in the Barnsley East by-election next month.
...
The party, the membership of which is a secret <HR: What membership? :rofl:>, has a long and fraught history and is the "culmination of a 10-year struggle" by the International Communist Party. In fact it seems the ICP has simply changed its name.

Mr Hyland believes the tag of Communism led people to confuse them with the Marxist-Leninist regimes of the old eastern bloc. He argues that the implosion of the Stalinist states was a vindication of the analysis of Leon Trotsky who in 1940 got a Stalinist ice pick in his head for his trouble.

The International Communist Party was born out of a dialectic dispute that tore the Workers' Revolutionary Party asunder some 12 years ago. The split was also to do with a row over whether a serious political organisation should receive money from Libya's Colonel Gaddafi, and the matter of the financial activities of its leader, Gerry Healy. One of the other groups which grew out of the split eventually became the Marxist Party.

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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #27
34. For someone who dislikes sectarianism
you seem to bring up sectarianism quite alot -- apparently you have to do your own wetworks in this regard since NO ONE ELSE HAS BROUGHT UP SECTARIANISM LET ALONE EXHIBITED IT.

What is the relevance of this article? You say "They hate.." Who is "they"?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #27
56. re: your comment about accomplishments...
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 09:57 AM by redqueen
It seems to me that accomplishments aren't so important to some... that it's more about a badge of purity that you can proudly display, as you whittle your party down to (oh-so convenient for some) ineffectiveness.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. Also, when you've got $25 mil to play with, accomplishments for workers ...
ain't such a pressing issue any more!

:rofl:

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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #14
75. There are unions and then there are unions.

The UAW leadership for example, is a bunch of sold out whores, scabs themselves. They sell their membership down the river like clockwork.

And then there is the UE, that's what I call a union.

The union movement was largely compromised by Taft-Hartley which by disqualifying the reds deprived the movement of it's most dynamic leadership and organizers.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #75
76. Exactly... not all unions are corrupt.
So if the WSWS is anti-all-unions rather than just targeting some for criticism... well, that seems stupid to me.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #76
83. I have yet to see evidence of that.

There ain't too many unions worth spit today, though many might be reorganized.

WSWS provides solid class analysis and that's why the defenders of the status quo hate it. They also insinuate some of their Trot bullshit in their work but it's easy enough to spot and ignore.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #83
97. I don't hate it because of the class analysis... I dislike it
due to the fact that they seem to help more with dividing the left more than they help with getting much at all actually done.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #97
199. Who is 'the Left' ?

Ya can't be of 'the Left' and support Capitalism.

Not that it hasn't been tried before, consider the social democrats of 1914, for the most part they lined up behind their national capitalists, traitors to the people.

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #199
204. Well there's a bit of context involved there... but in the context I'm thinking of...
which is the struggle to try to steer this country in the left direction... that means ANYONE who can help accomplish that goal.

So for me, yes it most certainly does include some who support capitalism.
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Mudoria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
17. If I read a post with a link to that site I stop reading and move on..
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 08:59 AM by Mudoria
worse than trash imo.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
21. Hey! A flamebait post from HamdenRice! That's unexpected!
:rofl:
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #21
126. yeah, uh.. not so much...
wsws is a whackadoo source. :shrug:
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #126
148. In journalism, there is a test known as the "so what" test...
What, in your estimation, is the thesis of the OP? :hi:
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Astrad Donating Member (374 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
31. I actually like their film reviews
They're from a very dogmatic perspective but they some times reveal interesting things about the film that I hadn't thought of.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
38. ROFL! New find: WSWS became anti-union when it's owner became a millionaire corporate owner!
http://www.bolshevik.org/1917/no30/no30-GRPI-WSWS.html

Northites Inc.: Toeing the Bottom Line
Being Determines Consciousness

In the spring of 2007, the Socialist Equality Party/Inter-national Committee (SEP/IC) was rocked by a public scandal when Scott Solomon, an embittered former adherent, revealed that David North is not only the leading figure of the SEP and IC, but is also CEO of Grand River Printing & Imaging (GRPI), a multi-million dollar business in Michigan. The SEP leadership would apparently prefer to keep its successful commercial venture secret, but it cannot deny the facts.

The GRPI evolved from the in-house printshop that used to produce the Bulletin, the newspaper of the Workers League (WLthe SEPs predecessor). When the WL/SEP suspended publication of the Bulletin in favor of producing an online daily on its World Socialist Web Site (WSWS), the party print shop was apparently quietly transformed into a full-blown business.

At about the same time, the SEP/IC leadership discarded the traditional Marxist view of trade unions as defensive organizations of the working class and declared that they had become simple agencies of the capitalists. North wrote a lengthy essay on this theme entitled Globalization and the Unions, in which he announced the objective transformation of the AFL-CIO into an instrument of the corporations and the capitalist state. We polemicized against this in 1917 No. 29 (see SEP: Defeatist and Confusionist: The Class Nature of the Unions).
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #38
49. No union protection for those employees.
They serve at the whim of their master.

Must be nice to be a millionaire Trotskyite.

Interesting to say the least.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
42. Red Bait much? WSWS is obviously not sanctioned by the DLC.
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #42
46. From Hamden?! Never!
:eye roll:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #42
53. Are you reading any of this stuff?
Do you consider it all just a pack of lies?
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #53
61. I condider it an example of the in-fighting between Trots and Stalinists.
Which is being exploited by the poster from a right wing standpoint.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. No, it isn't. The owner of WSWS is a $26 million fraud.
Insiders who are Trots are spilling their guts about his operation and bullshit anti-union stance, which they say is related to his being a corporate chieftain.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. So? How many of our politicians are millionaires and in the corps pockets?
Your attempt at red-baiting is reminiscent of the Stalin purges in the Soviet Union when they went after the Trots, Anarchists, and other progressives for being "too liberal".
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #63
65. Pointing out that a so called Trotskyite Revolutionary has $25 million in revenue isn't red baiting
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 10:21 AM by HamdenRice
It's calling him a hypocrite. And a capitalist -- the opposite of red baiting.

You can't see the difference? Don't you get it? He's a fraud. WSWS/SEP is a scam. It pretends to be revolutionary, but it privatized the printing presses to allow "David" and "Heather" to live the good life, on the profits of a non-union shop, while bemoaning organized labor as an enemy of the working class.

David and "Heather" live lovely while begging for more money from students to "build the party."

Dag, what is this shit, a fundamentalist religion or something?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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ipfilter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #65
159. For a second I thought
you were talking about Jim and Tammy Faye Baker.
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #62
67. Almost every member of the Senate and Obama are all millionaires, no?
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 10:28 AM by Kid Dynamite
Are they frauds?

I don't recall a single OP that invoked the name or merits of the owner of WSWS, so once again..is this just more of your redbaiting or do you care to offer something other than bluster for a change?
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #67
69. Do they claim to be Trotskyite Revolutionaries?
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 10:32 AM by HamdenRice
No?

Do they run anti-union websites claiming to be revolutionary while also running non union printing shops?

No?

Then you haven't made a coherent point.
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. What we think of them is not based on what they think of themselves
if you're point is hypocrisy, then you're in trouble because the hypocritical statements made by Senators and Obama are legion

So I guess you have to be in the "no coherent point" club by yourself..
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #70
72. Most Senators are PRO -CAPITALIST
It is not hypocritical for them to be millionaires and pro-capitalist.

North/Green pretends to be anti-capitalist revolutionary and pro-worker -- yet his anti-union dogma is dictated by the fact that he has a non-union shop to run, and needs to keep it that way.

Sorry you can't comprehend that.
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. You're big on coherency
so tell me what this has to do with the OpEds from WSWS that are posted here that are not (presumably) written by the owner and, according to YOU, go against the ideology of the owner?

If you are claiming that they are therefore compromised -- without regard to what they write -- then I think you are guilty of hypocrisy. Unless you think it is peachy keen that every PUBLIC legislator including the President takes huge donations from every corporate "sponsor" under the sun.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #72
134. they also claim to be pro-democracy. while taking pay-offs & lying to the people.
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #70
99. Ummmmm
I wasn't aware that senators and Obama were running around claiming to be Marxist.

Do you really have no defense other than misdirection?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. Do they go around trying to divide the left,
and aim most of their criticism at the left?

Do they accuse unions of being in sold out and work against them?

There are so many problems with that analogy it's not even funny.

Given, there are some corporatist dems who do it... but they don't claim to be representative of the left, let alone the far far left.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #71
213. divide "the left"? lol. afl-cio *is* sold out, long ago, & you have only
to look at the steady decline in union membership since their merger in 1955 to know it.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #213
215. Are supporters of the WSWS going to vote in our elections?
Are they going to attend the precinct and low level caucuses so we can improve our platform?

How exactly are they helping to push this country left?

It seems like they're more interested in turning people off the left, to me.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #215
216. "turning people off the left" is what happens when "the left" doesn't deliver for the people,
not the result of what some obscure website says.

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #216
217. Different things turn off different voters.
Since most of this country is steeped in anti-left BS... I find it hard to believe that if only the Dems would start acting far more openly socialist that it would attract tons of votes.

But yes, I'm sure there's a tiny percentage who would be drawn in by that... far fewer than we'd lose from the middle, though.

So it all depends on your priorities, really... what your real goals are, I mean.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #217
223. "a tiny percentage who would be drawn in by that... " Universal health care funded like
Medicare or Social Security?

"tiny minority," eh?

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #223
224. Please... WSWS isn't just about stuff like healthcare...
how shamelessly disingenuous of you... but then, desperate times, right?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #224
236. i didn't say it was. how disingenuous of you to suggest i did.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #236
237. You whipped it out as an example, when you should know well that's not what I mean.
But like I said... desperate times.

Really gotta run now... it's been entertaining. :)
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #237
239. "you should know well that's not what I mean." i should?
in the context of "dems should deliver," i think it's a timely example.

though i could cite the bankster bailout, the war, the bush prosecutions, jobs, or numerous other examples as well.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #61
64. Are they using lies in this in-fighting?
Some of these accusations aren't exactly fluff stuff, it seems to me...

As for being exploited from a right-wing standpoint, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. IMO bashing Dems as being just like republicans... which seems a common theme from WSWS pieces... is self-defeating... unless one truly believes that there really is no difference.

Seems to me that it's the purists who are being exploited from a right-wing standpoint, by being encouraged to spread dissent and division from the left (which only serves to help the right)... just MHO of course.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #64
108. The "purists" are the ones demanding party loyalty in the face of sell-outs.
The Democratic Party, like all political parties, are merely vehicles to an end. If, for instance, you are anti-war and a Democrat, and the party leaders back more war in Afghanistan then the reason to be a supporter of the party vanishes.

As an Anarchist I'm not a particular fan of WSWS but it is a voice of a portion of "the left" just as much as the DLC is another voice.

Further, despite the OP's hysteria and inclination to attack the messenger rather than the message, I seriously doubt that the articles posted here will "split the left". Nor do I believe that "attacking Democrats" from the left will amount to any more than pinpricks when the elections are held.

I DO believe that it is the responsibility of the citizenry to hold all public servants accountable no matter what party they belong to or position they hold.

I "attack" policies and the politicians who are in charge of them. As, I think, do most of the posters who question or belabor politicians and the ruling class.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #108
109. Party Loyalty? Screw that... I care about results.
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 12:19 PM by redqueen
What gains have anarchists made for anyone, anywhere?

What's the point if what you're engaging in doesn't actually improve anything?

As for splitting the left... if that mindset is spread, I do believe it is damaging. If you don't then we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #109
113. India is no longer a British colony, for one improvement.
I assume that you think that an Anarchist named Mohandas K. Gandhi had a bit to do with that.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #113
116. Anything else?
If not, I might want to call that the exception which proves the rule.

Didn't know he was an anarchist... thanks for that tidbit. Off to read. :)
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #116
121. The American Labor Movement owes a lot to Anarchists.
A goodly portion of the early American Labor movement was started by and supported by Anarchists.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. But concessions on recognition, actual wages, working conditions, civil rights, etc...
were won by the unions associated with the AFL-CIO.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #122
135. They were won by communists & workers, not by afl-cio.
afl-cio merger = 1955; union membership peaked the same year.

afl-cio has presided over the decline.

http://www.westga.edu/~bquest/2000/lcycle.html
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #135
139. Reading comprehension is your friend
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 02:59 PM by HamdenRice
I said unions associated with the AFL-CIO. There obviously was an AFL and a CIO and its constituent unions before the merger.

But if you think anarchists negotiated more contracts to improve the concrete work conditions and wages of workers than those unions -- well, I have an ideology to sell you that is supposedly "revolutionary" but is anti-union, and is promoted by a multi-million dollar corporate cult leader who owns a non-union shop!

You buyin?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Tomorrow's Hannah Bull link dump to WSWS bullshit is going to be soooooo entertaining!
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #139
146. "unions associated with afl-cio" were purged of their reds in the 50s.
thus, they're not the same unions as before their association with afl-cio, the centralizing corporate organ which has presided over their ongoing membership decline since 1955.

from 35% private unionization to 7%.

the "fighting afl-cio"!

fighting for the corps.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #116
218. Does 'Haymarket' ring a bell?
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 05:22 PM by Hannah Bell
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair

8-hour-day fight.

"The influence of the Haymarket affair was not limited to the celebration of May Day. Emma Goldman was attracted to anarchism after reading about the incident and the executions, which she later described as "the events that had inspired my spiritual birth and growth." She considered the Haymarket martyrs "the most decisive influence in my existence".<56> Alexander Berkman also described the Haymarket anarchists as "a potent and vital inspiration."<57> Others whose commitment to anarchism crystallized as a result of the Haymarket affair included Voltairine de Cleyre and "Big Bill" Haywood, a founding member of the Industrial Workers of the World.<57> Goldman wrote to Max Nettlau that the Haymarket affair had awakened the social consciousness of "hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people".<58>"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair


Interestingly, the McCormicks of McCormick Harvesting Machine Co. which figures so prominently in the case set up a foundation. Said foundation now funds education privatization in Chicago & its trustees are major Obama donors.

The long arm of capital.

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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #218
219. But history's hard!
I know! Let's go shopping!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #218
222. That makes two.
Now, set that against how much has been accomplished by those you term "sellouts".

Please. :)
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #222
225. um, those i term sell-outs accomplished nothing.
this is who accomplished something, & for the most part, they're unsung.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


IWW = anarchist/socialist formation: organized the lumber industry, etc.

The IWW was founded in Chicago in June 1905 at a convention of two hundred socialists, anarchists, and radical trade unionists from all over the United States (mainly the Western Federation of Miners) who were opposed to the policies of the American Federation of Labor (AFL).

The convention, which took place on June 27, 1905, was then referred to as the "Industrial Congress" or the "Industrial Union Convention"it would later be known as the First Annual Convention of the IWW. It is considered one of the most important events in the history of industrial unionism and of the American labor movement in general.

The IWW's first organizers included William D. ("Big Bill") Haywood, Daniel De Leon, Eugene V. Debs, Thomas J Hagerty, Lucy Parsons, Mary Harris Jones (commonly known as "Mother Jones"), William Trautmann, Vincent Saint John, Ralph Chaplin, and many others.

One of the IWW's most important contributions to the labor movement and broader push towards social justice was that, when founded, it was the only American union (Besides the Knights of Labor) to welcome all workers including women, immigrants, and African Americans into the same organization. Indeed, many of its early members were immigrants, and some, like Carlo Tresca, Joe Hill and Mary Jones, rose to prominence in the leadership.

The IWW was involved in over 150 strikes, including those in the Lawrence textile strike (1912), the Paterson silk strike (1913) and the Mesabi range (1916). They were also involved in what came to be known as the Wheatland Hop Riot August 3, 1913

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Workers_of_the_...

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #225
226. So there's been absolutely no progress since the early 20th century?
Really?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #226
230. those i term sell-outs = afl-cio, formed in 1955 at the peak of unionization.
decline in membership & worker consciousness ever since.

afl & cio leadership 1947-1955 purged the communists & anarchists who'd done the heavy lifting & merged to manage the "business unionism" of the cold war & the "clawback unionism" 1960s to present.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #230
231. AFL CIO is not the be-all end-all... you call most of the Dem party sell outs, don't you?
Please, don't be coy.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #231
234. obama won by the biggest majority since reagan's second term, i believe.
judge the policy results for yourself.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #234
235. Do another anarchist strike thing, and see how far that goes.
We can compare notes in 8 years.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #235
238. yes, let's.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #225
228. spanish civil war:
Spain 1936

After General Francisco Franco declared war on the Spanish government in 1936 (Spanish civil war) the government lost control over much of Spain. Resistance to the rebels was often organized through the confederation of anarcho-syndicalist trade unions, the Confederacin Nacional del Trabajo (CNT) and the Iberian Anarchist Federation, the Federacin Anarquista Ibrica (FAI). The Spanish Revolution occurred almost immediately after the failed coup of Franco, leading to the formation of worker's collectives all over Republican Spain. This has been hailed as the best example of a functioning anarchist system. Anarchists were instrumental in keeping the country running and holding back the Francoists, until they were attacked by the Republican government and their Communist allies. The government was subsequently defeated by Franco, leading to 40 years of Francoist dictatorship in Spain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_civil_war
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #228
229. Just going to ignore my question re: progress since the early 20th century?
:rofl:

Typical...
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #229
232. you might read my post before you use the rolly icon (like it strengthens your non-existent point).
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 06:02 PM by Hannah Bell
the spanish civil war = middle 20th century.

your original claim was: anarchists never accomplished shit. idiotic claim, as anyone who knows labor history knows. anarchists *were* the original labor movement in large part, as marx didn't start writing until the 1850s.

now that i've commenced destroying your original claim, you ignore it & move on to your new claim: what have anarchists done since the early 20th century?

well, they were pretty much supressed in the purges of the 1920s, e.g.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Raids

& the communists & socialists came to occupy a larger position.

but some of the leadership of *those* struggles made their bones in the earlier wave, e.g. this well-known labor leader & co-founder of IWW:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_V._Debs



now, why don't you tell me the big wins the afl-cio brought for labor in the "second half of the 20th century"?

let's see: declining membership (35% unionization to 7%), wage & benefit cuts, offshoring of jobs & dismemberment of the US industrial base.

check.


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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #232
233. My point is that they accomplish less, far less, and I stand by that.
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 06:05 PM by redqueen
You can keep dancing around the fact that it's really most of the Dem party that you're claiming is sold out & useless... but people are familiar enough with your posts to make that effort a wasted one.

Have a great evening. :hi:
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #233
241. examples of afl-cio gains since 1955? you're bowing out before putting up the evidence?
big surprise.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #241
246. Of course it's not surprising. Why would any reasonable person want to discuss anything with you?
Look at what you're doing now.

You're trying to make this a battle between anarchists and the AFL-CIO... how fucking stupid is that?

:rofl:

Have fun bothering others with your brand of logic... I've had enough entertainment in this thread, thanks.

:kick:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #246
248. "Why would any reasonable person want to discuss anything with you?"
:thumbsup:
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #113
118. He was hardly an anarchist as that would be understood today
He helped build a political party and post colonial state.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #118
123. Yes, and he attacked the congress party when it made a hash of it.
Anarchists are often members of and participate in political parties but they usually look at them as tools to achieve an end. Just like most other people do.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #42
144. What? How is this red-baiting? The Marxists are the ones calling the WSWS out.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
48. Curiouser and curiouser: WSWS "owner" had $25 million in revenue from slave labor of party cult
Google is a terrible thing for con artists with the public profile of even the cult leader of a small Trotskite party.

Disgruntled party members have been coming forward about the owner of WSWS -- David North. He is the wealthy owner of a printing company, with revenue of $25 million. Hence the anti-union stance.

According to insiders, "David North" is also "David Green." North/Green purchased printing presses in the pre-internet days to produce party literature. The money to buy the equipment came from donations of party workers.

When North/Green went on line with WSWS about 10 years ago, he devoted the printing presses to corporate printing jobs.

In essence he "privatized" the printing presses of the Trotskyite party for his own use and profit. He uses cult members to work the presses:

http://community.livejournal.com/trotskyism/3890.html

A Tale of Two Men
A Tale of Two Men
By Joe Hargrave

Here is a story you might find interesting:

I know of two men. One of them is the leader of a small Trotskyist political party in the United States. He is known as David North. The other is the CEO of Grand River Printing & Imaging, a company that earns 25 million dollars a year according to its website. They call him David W. Green.

For nearly 30 years, Mr. North ran his political party and Mr. Green ran his business. Mr. North gave speeches about the exploitation of the working class. Mr. Green exploited his workers, deriving surplus value from their unpaid labor. Mr. North thundered against the corporations that dominate American political life. Mr. Green sought those corporations out as clients, and probably did lunch with some of their executives. Mr. North would talk about the disgusting climate of corporate greed that pervaded the American cultural atmosphere. Mr. Green helped actualize that corporate greed by printing advertisements to help them push their products on consumers.
...
Unless, of course, they were the same man.

Could it be a case of multipule personality disorder? Not exactly. You see, David Green, alias David North, is a fraud. He is the biggest fraud to hit the socialist movement since James Robertson of the Sparticist Leauge or "Chairman" Bob Avakian of the Revolutionary Communist Party. He owns a multi-million dollar corporation, and the upper echelons of his political cult and members of their family occupy key executive positions.

The rank and file members of the party are completely unaware of the existence of North/Green's corporate empire, which includes Grand River Printing, Merhing Books, and who knows what else. They assume that the party sustains itself through the donations that it begs for on its website and at its conferences, as well as the regular contributions that members are expected to "pledge" every month. I was exempt from this particular requirement only after I reminded one of its leaders of the considerable amounts of money I had invested in my own local branch. How nice of them. I can only imagine the giddy internal glee that North/Green must have felt every time some naive sucker wrote the SEP a check for a few thousand dollars. To North/Green, and the other party leaders, such donations were in fact chump change.

I can also only begin to imagine the difficult decisions that had to be made on a daily basis, such as, "how little can we put into this whole socialist thing to keep it viable while we live in the lap of luxury?", and, "should I use a 50 dollar bill or a 100 dollar bill to do this next line of cocaine?" All kidding aside, anyone who is serious about building a revolutionary movement, and who also happened to own a multi-million dollar company, would invest the maximum amount of profits into the former.

What I mean to say is, I could accept the fact that North/Green exploits the labor-power of his workers if the surplus value created by their unpaid labor was being used to build a movement that would one day end all exploitation. The ends, as I generally believe, justify the means if the ends themselves are justified. But this is obviously not taking place. The SEP has full branches in three cities - LA, NY, and Detroit. With the profit margins we can assume a 25 million a year company is capable of, there should be a fully-staffed branch in every major city in the United States. There should be an SEP radio station, a public access program on television, etc., etc., etc. Those profits, in sum, should be used to promote the movement, to expose not tens of thousands but millions of people to socialism.

What could possibly account for a failure to do these things? There is only one inescapable conclusion - that North/Green and his cronies enjoy the good life more than they do the revolutionary life. And they enjoy that life at the expense of the wage-laborers they employ. To dance around these uncomfortable realities they invent all sorts of paternalistic schemes where they provide top quality education and training for their workers - while, of course, "keeping wages competitive". To read the website of Grand River Publishing & Imaging is to be sickened. Every line is infused with phony corporate enthusiasm and politeness, in order to impress the equally phony corporate clients looking to get their ads published and printed. Contrast that to what you normally read on the WSWS. How can these people sleep at night? They might respond like the fictional Renier Wolfcastle: "On top of piles of money with lots of beautiful ladies".


http://squirrelcommunism.blogspot.com/2007/03/red-squir...

Thanks for keeping this blog. I found it while trying to find out about David North and the Secoiliast Equality Party and his7their relation to David Green and Grand River Printing and Imaging. I was a member of the Workers League in the early 1970's. We raised a lot of money to buy printing presses, which I would bet were the original presses used to get Grand River Printing going. Most of that money came out of the pockets of workers, and some pretty oor people. So I would say that David Green is not your ordinary, hard working capitalist pig. He is a vampire who sucks blood from workers. I have my doubts about the place really being a good place to work. when the Workers League ran a print shop in New York City, the workers were all party members who worked 18 hours a day. It was a union shop on paper, but the reality was that all work rules and over time pay were ignored for the sake of the revolutionary cause. That system was used before North took over the Workers League under the prevous sleader, Tim Wohlforth, who in turn copied it from the Gerry Healy operation in England, who may have copied it from the print shop of the SWP for all I know. North/Green seems to have taken that system to a "higher" level". I wonder how many grand River employees are also members of the SEQ.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #48
54. A blogger asks: With $25 million, and 50 years, why haven't you opened even 1 party office???
Because WSWS is a scam, that's why.

http://www.stumbleupon.com/url/www.wsws.org /

These guys take great pride tracing down their lineage to Leon Trotsky himself but what have they accomplished in 50+ years of existence using various names? Absolutely nothing. They don't have one single meeting hall on the entire planet. They don't have a party constitution or even party elections. David North has been in charge for 30 years. Who voted him there? Why do they keep voting him there if the party has done absolutely nothing worthwhile? There is also evidence to support that David North is an owner of a corporation. This party is a cult and an embarrassment to socialism. Members chastise you for the most trivial things. One member created a Facebook account just to spy on me when I was interested in joining the party and reported back his findings so they could all chastise me in unison. Also the members themselves told me this is not a party of action. They don't go out and participate in activism. They don't go out and try to help the working people. All they merely do is write "news" with no sources. They are anti-union which is anti-Trotsky! And they depend on younger college individuals interested in the party to do all the work for them. "Go out and form an SEP club in your college so we could have a place to hold meetings because we've been around for 50 years and haven't accomplished a single thing." Using this free domain they'll hold meetings where they teach their revisionist anti-union program that lacks action, force members to advertise the website, and give out a shitload of flyers only to waste your time byaccomplishing nothing. What do you hope to accomplish by staging speeches in small rooms in the YMCA building or hold meetings with 5 college students? This is why this party has done nothing in 50 years and will continue to do nothing. As for their anti-union stance, I just don't get it. Yes unions here n America have become reactionary, but it's not at the fault of the members it's the leadership. The union will always remain as the most basic form of workers organization. How could you want to do away with this? What would they have without the union in capitalist society? Educate the workers to oust their petty bourgeois leaders and take control of the union!!!
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #54
57. A blogger asks: If WSWS owner and wife Heather live comfortably on $25 mil, why beg from comrades?
http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=41918

Not only does David W. Green run Grand River Printing and Imaging (which generates $26mm+ per year in sales and no doubt keeps him and his wife Heather Green living comfortably from a company that no doubt was built scamming international "comrades" for money during fund drives, summer camps, etc., he also has created a fake martyr, Tom Henehan, who in an unguarded moment "North" seemed to confide in Chris Bailey that he himself ("North") bore responsibility for his death. From the Marxism Listserv from years ago:
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #57
136. speaking of distorting the facts. the 26 mill = total revenues. out of that, they pay wages
& costs.

But you knew that, didn't you?

No respect for truth.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #136
137. But I thought all accounting was "right wing"!!!!
Your dancing is superb!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Now how about you explain away the accusation that they stole the printing presses, purchased with donations, from the "party" and privatized them?

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #137
141. i've never said anything like that. as you also know. as for north, i don't explain it away at all.
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 03:04 PM by Hannah Bell
in fact, i said as much long before you did, as you'll see if you check the links in my response to you below.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

you see, i'm honest, whatever else i may be. i don't misrepresent what i believe the facts to be.

for the record:

Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-29-09 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. what's funny is, i'm not a trot, or a member of any sect at all.
i just think wsws has good reporting from a labor pov, even though i think sep is probably a psyops outfit.

heresy, apparently. only the nyt or wa post pass muster, apparently.

though they're propaganda & psyops outlets too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-15-09 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. some is coming from the qatar & saudi royals, biggest owners of "middle eastern" media.
everyone's got their biases. i don't believe the spin of middle eastern royals superior to anyone else's.

wsws's are up front, not disguised.

in fact, it's widely rumored the trots are a front group designed to siphon off real dissent.

nevertheless, in their role as phoney opposition, wsws delivers mostly fact-base reporting based on msm sources & local informants & analysis from an anti-capital pov, with an obligatory "we must build the rev" at the end.

i can discount their spin for the rest.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


you can spin & smear as you please. shows who you are.

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #141
143. You wrote: "i'm honest, whatever else i may be"
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 03:07 PM by HamdenRice
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Would you like to revisit your claim that unions are a criminal conspiracy against the working class?

Was that an honest claim?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #143
145. I didn't claim "unions are a criminal conspiracy against the working class." That's your spin.
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 03:09 PM by Hannah Bell
I claimed uaw & afl-cio = company unions. which they are.

keep digging your hole, hampton.

i notice you don't cop to it when you misrepresent facts, just go on to new smears.

shows who you are.

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #145
147. You're like Austin Powers in the first movie! "I'm tellin ya baby, that's not mine!"
Austin Powers: I don't even know what this is! This sort of thing ain't my bag, baby.

Quartermaster Clerk: One book, "Swedish-made <deleted> Enlargers And Me: This Sort of Thing Is My Bag Baby", by Austin Powers.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #147
149. Since you refuse to acknowledge my post, I'll keep posting it.
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 03:27 PM by Hannah Bell
Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Wed Sep-16-09 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
129. I have no problem with you "outing" David North. As I've said repeatedly,
I'm not a Trot, don't belong to SWP or any sect, never have. I've also noted that some say the institutionalized "radical left" are often suspected of being front groups designed to siphon off legitimate dissent, e.g. here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

I post the articles because 1) they're generally honest with the facts; 2) their slant is a corrective to the msm/nyt/wapo spin; 3) they report labor & international news from a labor perspective; 4) to bug you, hamden.

unlike some, i think the financial & business connections of every opinion-purveyor should be public information.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #149
151. I just posted the link to your thread citing a WSWS article calling unions criminal conspiracies
As your your claim that you post stuff, "1) they're generally honest with the facts;"... That's just

:silly: :crazy: :silly:

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #151
155. where? i've gone though your responses to me, & i don't find it.
why don't you post it here?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #155
170. cause there was no such post, that's why.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #48
74. Indymedia blog: WSWS "turn" against unions due to owners non-union shop. WSWS/SEP a cult and "crock"
http://www.indymedia.org.nz/article/73526/socialist-equ...

Socialist Equality Party a crock!

The Socialist Equality Party is a small group that some people in Wellington will be familiar with. They had a talk at the Victoria University Law school in September of last year. They did another one earlier this year during orientation. They are also the owners of the World Socialist Website.

Turns out their leader one David North, lives a double life. In one he is the leader of a Trotskyist group. In the other is known as David Green the CEO of a printing company with a turnover of $US21 million a year.

A former member writes:

Some years ago, the communist political cult to which I used to be a
member for one year (then known as the Workers League, now known as the
Socialist Equality Party) made an interesting "turn" in its political line.
According to SEPtic, the unions were no longer organizations of the working class.

I found this "turn" to be quite startling. Upon further thought,
however, it sorta made sense. David W. Green ("North"), the cult leader of SEPtic,
having run the cult since the mid 1970s, had been a complete ineffectual. He and
his cult never organized any workers, never gained any influence in the labor
movement, never accomplished anything. So, in a strange way, it made quite a
bit of sense that "North" was now writing off the unions altogether.

Still, I wondered, how was it that "North" managed to keep control
over a dedicated cluster in the top leadership.

Today, playing around on the web, I found a possible answer. It seems
that David W. Green is CEO of the 241st largest printing company in the USA.
EXHIBIT 1 is a link to the company's site. EXHIBIT 3 show that in 2005 the
company generated $21mm in sales. EXHIBIT 2 has pictures of "David North" and his wife
in Crain's, touting them as some of the best employers in the city.

The "puzzle" now makes sense.

Question: why does the North cult solicit members for donations when
they run a profitable enterprise that could conceivably fund the SEPtic web
page activities?
Is there any sort of democracy in SEPtic? Were a faction to take over
the cult, what would be the impact of the North crew vis-a-vis the company
activities?

It's interesting that CEO North now tells workers that unions are no
longer organizations of the working class. This same "line" is probably echoed by CEOs at
all unorganized companies.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #74
77. There is no actual proof that these two men are in anyway the same person, as far as I see.
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 10:59 AM by Starry Messenger
All of these articles are generated from the bare word of someone who claims to be a former member, a Scott Solomon, who created this story on Google groups:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.socialism.t...

One has to sign in with a Google account to view the post in the Group. I will C/P here for the benefit of those who don't wish to create an account right now.



Scott Solomon
View profile
(2 users) More options Apr 22 2007, 9:17 pm
Newsgroups: alt.politics.socialism.trotsky
From: Scott Solomon <scott_p_solo...@hotmail.com >
Date: 22 Apr 2007 21:17:18 -0700
Local: Sun, Apr 22 2007 9:17 pm
Subject: David W. Green ("North") . . . CEO/Cult Leader for "Revolution"
Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
EXHIBIT 1

http://www.grpinc.com/grandriver-people.html

EXHIBIT 2

http://www.irisolutions.com/pressroom/best-places/2003_...

(see page 2)

EXHIBIT 3

http://www.weandrews.com/wwwAndrews/Docs/RRD_piworld_1....

(see page 9 of 14)

Some years ago, the communist political cult to which I used to be a
member
for one year (then known as the Workers League, now known as the
Socialist
Equality Party) made an interesting "turn" in its political line.
According to SEPtic,
the unions were no longer organizations of the working class.

I found this "turn" to be quite startling. Upon further thought,
however, it sorta
made sense. David W. Green ("North"), the cult leader of SEPtic,
having run
the cult since the mid 1970s, had been a complete ineffectual. He and
his cult
never organized any workers, ever gained any influence in the labor
movement,
never accomplished anything. So, in a strange way, it made quite a
bit of sense
that "North" was now writing off the unions altogether.

Still, I wondered, how was it that "North" managed to keep control
over a dedicated
cluster in the top leadership.

Today, playing around on the web, I found a possible answer. It seems
that David
W. Green is CEO of the 241st largest printing company in the USA.
EXHIBIT 1
is a link to the company's site. EXHIBIT 3 show that in 2005 the
company generated
$21mm in sales. EXHIBIT 2 has pictures of "David North" and his wife
in Crain's,
touting them as some of the best employers in the city.

The "puzzle" now makes sense.

Question: why does the North cult solicit members for donations when
they run
a profitable enterprise that could conceivably fund the SEPtic web
page activities?
Is there any sort of democracy in SEPtic? Were a faction to take over
the cult,
what would be the impact of the North crew vis-a-vis the company
activities?

It's interesting that CEO North now tells workers that unions are no
longer organizations
of the working class. This same "line" is probably echoed by CEOs at
all unorganized
companies.


He posts again at the website cited:
http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=41918


scott_p_solomon
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Joined: Thu 03 May 2007, 17:17
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Fri 04 May 2007, 12:14
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.poli ... d0b4d14c50

This is the original post that identified North as a CEO. EXHIBIT 2 is a link to a Crain's article that has a picture
of North/Green and his wife.

Note: SEPtic has not denied this. They just reply that
"Engels was also a capitalist" blah, blah, blah. Which
of course is not the point. The point is how democratically
can a political organization be run when the cult leader
is also running the company that generates all the money.

It's an OBVIOUS conflict of interest, in the same way it
would be a conflict of interest to have a guy working at
Goldman Sachs who also has his own Wall Street recruiting
firm.


Sadly, his "exhibit" links seem broken. edit: the third link works. It's a printing catalogue and nothing else.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. Cognitive dissonance at its finest! nt
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #78
79. Excuse me?
I thought perhaps you were interested in facts. I guess creative writing is really your forte' however. Carry on.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. Several different people-former party members- confirm the story, with additional details-->
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 11:10 AM by HamdenRice
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2207124228&topic=...

This is a repost from the Socialism Myspace group.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.socialism.t...

It all makes sense now. I can confirm that the man in the picture on page 2 of the second link is in fact David North (aka David W. Green), national secretary of the Socialist Equality Party and chairman of the editorial board of the World Socialist Website. He is also the CEO of Grand River Printing & Imaging (GRPI), a privately-owned company. His wife is the VP of Personnel and the wife of Barry Grey, a member of the WSWS editorial board, is the Chief Financial Officer. There are other party members involved in this company as well, as some of the images that have come up in further searches have revealed.

GRPI is not a mom-and-pop print shop. It is a company that, according to its website, generates 25 million dollars in sales and employs 90 people. According to its history, it works with ad agencies that do work for Chrysler and K-Mart, Detroit-area based corporations.

In my three years of involvement with the SEP, not once was the existence of this company ever made known to me, or to anyone else I am aware of. The existence of this company and the identity of its owners is surely unknown to most SEP members, prospective members, and supporters. The party leadership leads a double life as a group of corporate executives.

Regardless of how well this company may treat its workers - according to the reports, it has won awards for being one of the best places to work in Detroit - all party members have a right to know that their political leader owns a company that generates 25 million in sales every year, and that it is staffed by party members and relatives of party members. I see no evidence that this is a cooperative firm based on worker ownership, and every bit of evidence to suggest that it is nothing but a case of benevolent exploitation.

Perhaps had I known this while I was working an understaffed, underfunded campaign in Los Angeles, I would have raised uncomfortable questions. Perhaps I would have wondered why money was being begged for at every conference, why we were given speeches about the costs of running the party and the website, why we were made to think that donations and monthly contributions were the only possible way that the party could continue its existence.

Websearches show that the printing world is impressed with GRPI, it is an innovator in its field and is always on top of the latest innovations to remain profitable. In fact, North/Green explained the secret of his success at a 2000 seminar:

"Greene said that it is important to develop among workers the idea that they are part of a larger vision, and that they are important to that vision. Of course, wages must remain competitive."

http://www.zoominfo.com/search/ReferencesView.aspx?Pers...

Of course. Otherwise he might have to fly coach instead of first-class on his next trip to Europe.

What do you folks think?

http://lists.econ.utah.edu/pipermail/marxism/2008-Octob...

The news about the death of Jeff Sebastian, the guy who recruited me to
Trotskyism back in 1970, saddened me (see earlier post), but it also made me
curious about the intervening years of the David North led cult, which I had
left way back in the 70's. All that I knew about them was that they had
moved to Detroit, taking the printing presses we had worked so hard to raise
money for
some time after I left the group. Then they had reappeared with a
slick website and a weird poltical party (not surprisingly) called the
"Socialist Equality Party".

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. Oh man... that last one is bad.
You have to hope this stuff is just all made-up lies... cause otherwise... geez.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #82
86. When DU's Trots were screaming, socialize the costs, privatize the gains, I thought it was critique!
Turns out its the creed for their party!
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #81
84. Several?
I see link-back to the Scott Solomon story at several of your links. As I said, the picture links he provided are dead, so there is no way of seeing with our own eyes. I'd say it is a very questionable assertion, at best.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #84
87. They link to the story and say, I can confirm that North is Green
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 11:21 AM by HamdenRice
But don't believe them, if you don't like. WSWS is, after all, infallible to the faithful, so the people confirming the story must be all wrong.

:sarcasm:
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #87
91. I'm not a big fan of WSWS.
I just don't like to see misinformation travel around the web. It's untidy. Anyone can say anything on the web. It's probably all the same guy.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #84
90. If you're right and it's all lies that'd be great...
I think it's puzzling that it's a mystery who the leader of this party even is... seems kinda suspicious even, after hearing these claims.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #77
88. Bitter infighting among Trot splinter factions?

Say it ain't so... :eyes:
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #88
92. Uh, no. It's former cult members busting their leader for living the lavish life
of a millionaire while their dupes beg for donations.

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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #92
131. I dunno about that

This Scott Solomon has been all over red discussion boards pushing this, there is a smell of vendetta. For example:

http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=41918


Concerning your wiki link:

This article needs references that appear in reliable third-party publications. Primary sources or sources affiliated with the subject are generally not sufficient for a Wikipedia article. Please add more appropriate citations from reliable sources. (July 2009)


You know very well how that stuff works, particularly when rivals come to play.

No doubt there is some truth to the matter, though possibly irrelevant.

The big point is that you are unable to refute WSWS articles so you must shoot the messenger. I'm not a Trot and find them to be pretty lame revolutionaries but this internet site provides working class analysis pretty damned consistently though one must ignore their forays into the sectarian. And that is what you really object to.



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curt_b Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #131
133. Line>Editorial Policy>Reporting
I agree BP. There's a bunch of stuff going on in this thread, but one central theme (from the OP) is that WSWS/SEP has a political line that is anti-union.

What the OP doesn't discuss is how that line (if it does exist) is carried into the editorial policy of WSWS (as it is in any other media outlet), and if it does determine editorial policy, how it distorts what is presented as news reporting.

My impression is (and it is completely anecdotal) that they tend to celebrate rank and file contributions to class struggle at the expense of Trade Unionism at the staff or International levels. Like you and a couple others here, it doesn't seem to me to be to hard to evaluate WSWS reporting, accepting what makes sense and rejecting what doesn't.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #131
164. "And that is what you really object to." yep. it's pretty obvious.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #88
96. I don't know blindpig.
It does seem like a few people with a grudge. I really don't know much about socialism, I just thought it was strange that it was being asserted as fact that these two men were one and the same when there is no proof. I'm naturally skeptical of things like this.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #88
105. Oh. My.
Scott Solomon writes critiques of David North in the form of haikus. Hmm.

http://www.groupsrv.com/politics/about157031.html

Scott Solomon...
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:32 pm
Guest
SEPtic Haiku

Did David North sing
To a captive audience
Of brain-dead members?
Back to top
Scott Solomon...
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:28 pm
Guest
SEPtic Haiku

Bluto is fatty
Joe Kay is jokey jokey
David North blowhard


On Jan 30, 8:32 pm, Scott Solomon <scott_p_solo... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
SEPtic Haiku

Did David North sing
To a captive audience
Of brain-dead members?
Back to top
Scott Solomon...
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:31 pm
Guest
SEPtic Haiku

Elections coming
Signatures to gather up
We get fifty votes


On Jan 31, 11:28 pm, Scott Solomon <scott_p_solo... at (no spam) hotmail.com>
wrote:


That's a bit worrisome. There's two pages there.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #48
101. Wow, this is a keeper!
I am definitely going to keep this for when those who insist on posting the crap from WSWS take umbrage at any criticism of the same.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #48
172. well that explains how they finance their trolls
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #172
192. I didn't get what you meant down thread. From what I've read about them it's entirely possible nt
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #192
240. I think most everybody gets it now, The only question is do they get paid
by the post or on a commission from the books that are sold.


You know there was a time that Marxism and Marxists was both interesting and entertaining, now it is only boring and irrelevent.


Having assisted 440,000 refugees (some of them socialists and communists running for their lives from 'revolutionary justice') leave their asylum home to go to new homes it is no longer an academic exercise.


As I said in another thread they are starting to resemble Jehovah's Witnesses and have to jump on one side of an ideological argument one day and go to the other side in a quick jump only to have to return to the original position the day after.


It would be a lot of fun to see the UAW order a large printing from the printing company you mention and see the opinion of unions by the local scribe here change upon receipt of the purchae order.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #172
211. if a regional millionaire can fund trolls, multinational corps & the dems & pugs must have boatloads
then.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
55. When the unions stop being in bed with the exploiter class, maybe this 'critique" would make sense
Organizing autonomously from trade unions has been a staple of left activism since the late 1960's, by the way.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. It's the hope for Galbraith's "New Industrial State"
A model of "big business," "big labor," "big consumer" and "big government" working together. Those days are over. But the attack from the likes of WSWS isn't even reality based.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
60. I love pissing matches between various communist groups..
They hate each other more than they hate Fascists and Capitalists.
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subcomhd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #60
244. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the fucking Judean People's Front.
nt
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
66. A lot of their stuff is extreme OpEd and little more
Hard to take it or the people who post it here seriously
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
80. 'Bout time you got to the point instead of ankle-biting
:thumbsup:
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
85. Apologist
for the "softer" version of the corporate capital slaughterhouse casts aspersions on socialist website. What a surprise.

Your sympathy for organized labor is touching. Too bad it doesn't comport with your incessant ramblings about the glories of capitalism.

Exhuming McCarthy again Hammie?
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #85
89. You live in a WSWS fantasy.
Point out a link to my "incessant ramblings about the glories of capitalism" or shut up.

But it's touching to see you come to the defense of David's and Heather's $26 million lifestyle based on non-union labor.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Dude your favorite source is busted. Get over it.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #85
112. +10000000000000000000000000
:applause:
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
94. nothing you post supports the comparison to Rense, PrisonPlanet and LaRouche
you post some valid information about WSWS, but none of it supports the accusation of being a "lunatic" site, or gives any reason for people not to post links from there.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #94
95. Do a search
Several of us have deconstructed dozens of lying WSWS articles over the last several months.

They are as crazy and dishonest as LaRouche, and now we know why.
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #95
107. So you start this OP
and when someone asks you "whats the point" you tell them to search for some other posts you made? And someone is accusing ME of misdirection..
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #94
98. That really wasn't the point of the OP. It's a combination of "Look at me!" and an enemies list.
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 11:36 AM by Romulox
nt
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
103. Trotskyism has always been a scam for bourgeois intellectuals
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #103
110. How so?
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #110
115. Here's one take from my experience in South Africa
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 12:45 PM by HamdenRice
The main legal leftist parties/organizations in the 80s were the United Democratic Front (UDF) and the Congress of South African Trade Unions(Cosatu). They had lots of underground participation by the banned African National Congress (ANC) and South African Communist Party (SACP)

The trade unions were very powerful because they could not only launch industrial strikes, but carry out general strikes. But the unions were mainly focused on improving wages and working conditions for industrial and service workers.

There was a long acrimonious debate about whether it was politically correct for Cosatu to be so focused on wages and conditions in the middle of a much bigger oppressive political system, and whether they were reinforcing the system by gaining concessions on working conditions. They were very cautious in striking for any purpose other than wages and working conditions -- ie squandering their power. This view came up from the shop floors, especially shop stewards who complained that you couldn't build the union and keep it strong unless you delivered better wages and conditions to actual workers. You politicized less educated people by winning concessions on wages and shop floor issues, not lecturing them about revolution. Moreover, they argued, poor working people needed to put food on the table and pay rent.

The far left (Trotskyites) wanted them to become more radical and focused on revolutionary action, like constant general strikes. But those far left voices were almost never shop stewards -- they were bourgeoise intellectuals and students mostly. It takes an out of touch bourgeoise intellectual to downplay wages in favor of dangerous, premature "revolutionary" action; you kind of have to not have your own factory job and wages on the line.

The shop steward tendency won out, and was supported by the UDF, ANC and SACP.
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subcomhd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #103
251. There really isn't any such thing as Trotskyism.
it is a catch-all phrase for the radical chic bourgeois who don't want to be associated with Stalinism, but still want to don the title of marxist. It means nothing. I'm not disagreeing with you at all btw.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
104. So does this also apply to the DSP or the SPofA?
DSP = Democratic Socialist Party.
SPofA = Socialist Party Of America.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #104
106. It doesn't apply to any mainstream democratic socialists
I'm much more familiar with DSA Democratic Socialists of America, which is truly democratic and pragmatic, pro-union, pro-elections, and so forth.

The party described in the OP claims to be to the left of the old Soviet Union's communist party, despite its misuse of the world "socialist" in some of its organs.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #106
111. I am sure there are some Communist Socialist Parties around..
not that Communism has any benefits to it, major fail and something I am not in line with.

I am a Democratic Socialist and the two parties I mentioned is the only two I consider my self part of.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
114. unkick and unrec
:thumbsdown:
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #114
117. The truth hurts doesn't it? nt
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #117
119. Post some truth and I'll let you know n/t
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. What is not true in the OP, or the scoop about WSWS being a front for a millionaire? nt
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #120
124. Oh for goodness sake.
There's no proof that these two men are the same. I've been looking since we lasted chatted and it's all the work of one obsessed fool (who writes HAIKU about how much he hates David North) and his sockpuppets. Now I'm just embarrassed for you. You are cutting and pasting from arguments taking place on Usenet/Google groups and posting them as if they are factual articles.

Scott Solomon

If you Google "David W. Green" Trotsky, you'll find that some other
"Marxist" forums have
picked up the story.

Here's a comment I posted on Joe Hargrave's "Myspace" Blog:

I don't have any problem with the fact that David W. Green ("North")
runs a successful company. And if I did have a problem? Who cares?
He still runs the company. My having a problem with or not having a
problem with it is completely irrelevant.

So why bother "outing" Dave? Well, reason #1, to be honest: piss him
off. I don't like Dave. It's really quite personal. I think Dave is
an autocratic blowhard scum bag who has wasted a lot of people's
time.


To be honest, reson #1 is not all that constructive. Could there be
other reasons that are more constructive?

Yes. Reason #2: The inner circle of the SEPtic cult is involved in a
commercial enterprise that generates $26mm+ in sales, and, assuming
15% EBITDA, could potentially have perhaps $3.9mm in money to play
with at the end of a year from the activities of the company.

This commercial enterprise came into existence as a result of 30 years
of hard work by high level cult members. I have no qualm with this
whatsoever, but what I WOULD point out to people thinking of joining
the North cult, donating money to the North cult, or investing years
of their lives into the North cult is the following:

What does it mean for the cult leader to not only run the cult but
also to run a successful enterprise most likely connected financially
with the cult? Suppose, for example, after putting years of work into
the cult, you develop differences with the cult? Suppose a majority
of cult members *agree* with your criticisms, and suppose a slate of
your fellow cult members manages to oust the completely ineffectual
North crew in a party election?

Now, let's be honest . . . that's an extremely unlikely event. First,
because North doesn't really have national meetings regularly where
something like this could happen. Second, it's extremely difficult to
communicate freely with other cult members. To my knowledge, there is
no internal SEPtic discussion board where members criticize the
leadership internally, away from the view of the Scott Solomons of the
world. Third, sorry to say, most members don't have very sharp ideas
(mostly they're a bunch of lackeys).

But, just for the sake of argument, let's suppose such an event
happened. You and your supporters win the leadership of SEPtic
putting forward a clearly insane political line such as (let's say)
trade unions *are* organizations of the working class!

Well, what happens to the corporate entity that supports the SEPtic?
I can't really see the North crew simply "walking away" from a company
they've put 30 years into that's now generating $26mm in sales. And
even if they did walk away, what would that mean??? I mean, do *you*
know how to run a printing company? I don't think so.

The point is: the crew that controls the money controls the party,
elections or no elections. Even though the early resources for
building the company probably came from donations from the
international sections of the political cult.

And the point is: the stake in the company really makes it less
imperative for the North gang to have any sort of political impact.
Just make the membership run around in election years getting stupid
signatures. Have'm write an occassional article for the web page.
Collect their dues and occasional donations. The inner circle gets
the perks, Dave gets to fly around the world.

The word for it is: opportunism.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.socialism.t...
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #120
125. Oh get over it
DU was always a great site BECAUSE of thought-provoking articles from various sources (including the one you're gunning for).

Without something worth reading or discussing here, we all might as well go over to GD:STFU and look at pictures of the Obamas' dog.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #125
128. So Lyndon LaRouche links would be acceptable as long as it's "thought provoking"?
Even if it's based on lies and distortions? That's not the view of the Administrators according to the forum rules.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #128
130. You're on a roll


Please go back and find every article posted here from WSWS and detail each instance of "lies and distortions."

Take your time.
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Soylent Brice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #125
153. !!
:rofl:

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
127. The truth must hurt! Afternoon unrec'ers are out in force to protect their millionaire cult leader
Mustn't let the facts be seen, eh?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
129. I have no problem with you "outing" David North. As I've said repeatedly,
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 02:11 PM by Hannah Bell
I'm not a Trot, don't belong to SWP or any sect, never have. I've also noted that some say the institutionalized "radical left" are often suspected of being front groups designed to siphon off legitimate dissent, e.g. here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I post the articles because 1) they're generally honest with the facts; 2) their slant is a corrective to the msm/nyt/wapo spin; 3) they report labor & international news from a labor perspective; 4) to bug you, hamden.

unlike some, i think the financial & business connections of every opinion-purveyor should be public information.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #129
152. and why am i not surprised you completely ignore this post?
it doesn't support your spin, that's why.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #152
154. The proof will be in the pudding when WSWS vomits up some new word salad of lies
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 03:38 PM by HamdenRice
and the question will be will you lap it up and regurgitate it here with your usual WSWS link dump.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #154
156. the proof is in the post you keep ignoring. cause it doesn't match your spin.
Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Wed Sep-16-09 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
129. I have no problem with you "outing" David North. As I've said repeatedly,
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 12:11 PM by Hannah Bell
I'm not a Trot, don't belong to SWP or any sect, never have. I've also noted that some say the institutionalized "radical left" are often suspected of being front groups designed to siphon off legitimate dissent, e.g. here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

I post the articles because 1) they're generally honest with the facts; 2) their slant is a corrective to the msm/nyt/wapo spin; 3) they report labor & international news from a labor perspective; 4) to bug you, hamden.

unlike some, i think the financial & business connections of every opinion-purveyor should be public information.
Alert | Add to my Journal
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #156
158. So will you continue posting lies from a $26 million corporate anti-union cult?
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 03:44 PM by HamdenRice
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #158
161. I don't consider them lies. And if information from "anti-union cults"
is disallowed, that pretty much rules out the entire msm, plus most "progressive" & "conservative" web info-purveyors - both "sides" of which pretend afl-cio = the voice of labor, when it's a bought-&-sold company union that's managed the decline of unionization since 1955.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
138. You Make An Excellent point, Mr. Rice
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #138
140. Thank you! They sound like a nasty piece of work from all angles. nt
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
142. Why am I not surprised at all at this?
If this abysmal bit didn't show up on the front page, I would have missed it, which would have been terrible.

Speaking only for myself, I couldn't care less what a bunch of nutcases think and do about each other.

They're, um, nutcases, irrelevant nutcases.

The only people who give a rat's ass about this matter are themselves pretty clearly only weakly connected with reality.
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subcomhd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
150. A split in the Flat Earth Society? nt
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
157. Most entertaining thread ever!
Lawyer Vs communists! It was like a Python sketch or a trip to Barcelona, only with more dated references than at a staged reading of 'The Women's Room'. So fun. Thank you all for being who you are! You make my job sooooo much easier!
Some of my least favorite baiters around here, baiting each other, waving factional flags and such, just like my older sister told me used to go on in the 70's! Satire or reality? Hard to tell, like all that McCarthy vs Pinkos stuff, just so hilarious!
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
160. Aha... I think I have finally sorted the truth from the echoes...
&topicA quick googling of the term "Scott Solomon image"... apparently the sole source of each and every echo and permutation of documentation that you present (aside from anonymous postings by Facebook posters with no sign of any other existence than saying 'me too' to Scott Solomon)... and what did I find??

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=...

The first image I see is from http://huntingpigdog.com/index.php?page=makims-dogs (about halfway down the page)... and is captioned:Kelly - Makim Outcross - Bred by Scott Solomon - With 72kg Boar

The most interesting part of this revelation, however, is the startling similarity between "Kelly" and your Avatar- Hamden:

Now... combining this uncontrovertable proof that you are infatuated with a dog that is the cartoonized image of Scott Solomon's dog Kelly... with the fact that you are repeatedly referencing echoes and affirmations of the assertion of Scott Solomon (see post #81 above, for example)... I can come to only one conclusion-

You, Hamden Rice, and Scott Solomon (who writes Haiku of Hatred about David North, apparently) ... are in fact the same person!!

I've never seen the two of you in the same room at the same time. Has anyone else ever seen the two of you in the same room at the same time?

Sorry Hamden/Scott... but the truth was eventually going to come out. Now might be a good time for some more David North Hatred Haiku...
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #160
162. i *knew* there was something spooky about hampton.
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 03:50 PM by Hannah Bell
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #162
166. I know Hannah, I'm sorry for you. Life just won't be the same for you knowing your main
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 03:57 PM by HamdenRice
source of info is a reactionary Trotskyite corporate cult. You're going to have to find an even crazier source to support your world view!

:rofl:

:silly: :crazy: :silly:

I hear SocialistWorker, is looking for what they call new "useful idiots."
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #166
187. Do you know if the SocialistWorker pays trolls?
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #187
191. No, but I think they are another branch of the same "House of Crazy" nt
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #160
163. No, the Scott person posted the first expose
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 03:52 PM by HamdenRice
and then former cult members said, looking at the printing company picture, "that's the same person."

Others suggested the **ahem** privatization of the WSWS printing presses.

QED
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #163
175. Those were posts by scott in that first post.
All of those "that's the same person" answers are clearly labeled with his name Scott Solomon.

I'm not sure what you're reading.








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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #163
193. No, the only other "person" who said that they could id from the "photo"
Was the Facebook "Tyler Luyben"... who has no picture in his account and "his" only claim to existing is "UWO, Notre Dame Catholic Secondary School 2007". As far as corroboration of the assertion that David Green and David North are the same person, the word of what appears to be a lazy man's sock puppet is not very convincing.

All in all, I'm far more convinced that you are Scott Solomon, based on the evidence that I provided above, than I am convinced that David Green and David North are the same person based on the shoddy word of a not very existent individual (google Tyler Luyben, the facebook link that comes up is for http://www.facebook.com/tyler.towry?_fb_noscript=1 Tyler Towry... which I'm beginning to think is just another name for Tyler Dyrden...)

As for your assertion that "former cult members said, looking at the printing company picture, ..." -- I hate to break the news to you Scott, but there is no printing company picture of David Green. No picture. None. Your zoominfo link (http://www.zoominfo.com/search/ReferencesView.aspx?Pers... ) displays nothing but an image of a buttery yellow humanoid torso, head, and arms resembling nothing so much as the Pillsbury Doughboy. Based upon that photo, I will entertain an argument that David Green is actually the Pillsbury Doughboy, if you choose to make that argument Scott, but this is no basis for a judgement of identifying David Green and David North as being the same person.

As for the multitude of other posts you have made... they have, one and all, been merely allusions to and gossipy quotations from that original story you wrote, Scott, (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.socialism.t... ) ... and gossipy retellings of something from one board to another are not substantiation... they are echoes.

I think you'd really better rethink your whole "fact based reality" schtick, if you're gonna keep trying to sell this turd, Scott.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #193
198. spooky.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #198
212. Heh... I don't see it as spooky, so much as funny.
The fact of the matter is that the proof that I provided that Hamden is in fact Scott Solomon is more compelling than any proof that Hamden/Scott has provided that David North = David Green.
What follows, a realization that he is therefore not only merely quoting himself, but then turning around and using not only his own self-quoting, but your acceptance of the assertion that he quotes "himself" making, as a sort of substantiation and corroboration of the initial assertion (that David North = David Green)... is in fact hysterical...

And, of course, the greatest irony is that, if I repeat my assertion, namely that Hamden Rice = Scott Solomon, and that he's liable to break out into Hatred Haiku targeting David North at any time, enough times... then, by the standards that Hamden himself is setting in this thread... Hamden Rice Will Equal Scott Solomon.

Repetition as proof.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #212
214. spooky has several meanings.
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 05:04 PM by Hannah Bell
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #214
220. If you say so...
I'm willing to play along...
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
165. It is difficult to understand why people who do not support the Democratic Party

do no support candidates for the Democratic Party are allowed to post here, even when they state that they are interested in initiating flame bait type threads and not advance any real discussion.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #165
167. i support the party of roosevelt, not rahm.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #165
168. That's the $60,000 question, isn't it? And when it turns out their info sources are a cult of liars
it gets even stranger.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #168
169. yes well their 'ideological purity' allows them to carry out any deception
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #169
174. and for you:
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 04:06 PM by Hannah Bell
141. i've never said anything like that. as you also know. as for north, i don't explain it away at all.

in fact, i said as much long before you did, as you'll see if you check the links in my response to you below.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

you see, i'm honest, whatever else i may be. i don't misrepresent what i believe the facts to be.

for the record:

Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-29-09 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. what's funny is, i'm not a trot, or a member of any sect at all.
i just think wsws has good reporting from a labor pov, even though i think sep is probably a psyops outfit.

heresy, apparently. only the nyt or wa post pass muster, apparently.

though they're propaganda & psyops outlets too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...


Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-15-09 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. some is coming from the qatar & saudi royals, biggest owners of "middle eastern" media.
everyone's got their biases. i don't believe the spin of middle eastern royals superior to anyone else's.

wsws's are up front, not disguised.

in fact, it's widely rumored the trots are a front group designed to siphon off real dissent.

nevertheless, in their role as phoney opposition, wsws delivers mostly fact-base reporting based on msm sources & local informants & analysis from an anti-capital pov, with an obligatory "we must build the rev" at the end.

i can discount their spin for the rest.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...


you can spin & smear as you please. shows who you are.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #168
173. once more:
141. i've never said anything like that. as you also know. as for north, i don't explain it away at all.

in fact, i said as much long before you did, as you'll see if you check the links in my response to you below.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

you see, i'm honest, whatever else i may be. i don't misrepresent what i believe the facts to be.

for the record:

Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-29-09 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. what's funny is, i'm not a trot, or a member of any sect at all.
i just think wsws has good reporting from a labor pov, even though i think sep is probably a psyops outfit.

heresy, apparently. only the nyt or wa post pass muster, apparently.

though they're propaganda & psyops outlets too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...


Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-15-09 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. some is coming from the qatar & saudi royals, biggest owners of "middle eastern" media.
everyone's got their biases. i don't believe the spin of middle eastern royals superior to anyone else's.

wsws's are up front, not disguised.

in fact, it's widely rumored the trots are a front group designed to siphon off real dissent.

nevertheless, in their role as phoney opposition, wsws delivers mostly fact-base reporting based on msm sources & local informants & analysis from an anti-capital pov, with an obligatory "we must build the rev" at the end.

i can discount their spin for the rest.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...


you can spin & smear as you please. shows who you are.

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #173
179. So you thought WSWS was psy-ops and you posted a half dozen of their articles per day?
WTF is wrong with you???
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #179
181. this must have escaped you:
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 04:12 PM by Hannah Bell
17. what's funny is, i'm not a trot, or a member of any sect at all.
i just think wsws has good reporting from a labor pov, even though i think sep is probably a psyops outfit.

heresy, apparently. only the nyt or wa post pass muster, apparently.

****though they're (nyt/wapo) propaganda & psyops outlets too.***

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...



***nevertheless, in their role as phoney opposition, wsws delivers mostly fact-base reporting based on msm sources & local informants & analysis from an anti-capital pov*** with an obligatory "we must build the rev" at the end.

i can discount their spin for the rest.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...


there is no frigging "real left" in the US, hampton. as you well know. only a bunch of disorganized people who WISH there were, trying to navigate the hall of mirrors.


you can spin & smear as you please. shows who you are.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #181
183. Uh, no. Shows who you are
You believed this:

"nevertheless, in their role as phoney opposition, wsws delivers ..."

and yet you posted a half dozen articles a day? Or are you just making up crap about what you believed then in order to cover your ass?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #183
184. um, since the posts i cite pre-date today by several months, i could hardly be making them up.
there are others, too.

you & the rest of the red-baiters just weren't paying attention.

oh, & i posted them to annoy *you*. said that on previous occasions, too.

but it didn't fit your red-baiting storyline, so you ignored it.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #184
189. So you thought it was psy-ops and you POSTED ARTICLES FROM IT EVERY DAY ANYWAY???
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 04:21 PM by HamdenRice
WTF if wrong with you? What is wrong with your thinking patterns???
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #189
195. NYT/WAPO: also psy-ops. & to tweak YOU, sweetie.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #179
182. boy you sure attracted a lot of "ignore" to this thread
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #165
171. It is difficult, indeed.
One wonders what the goals of such people are.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #171
177. and for you, too:
141. i've never said anything like that. as you also know. as for north, i don't explain it away at all.

in fact, i said as much long before you did, as you'll see if you check the links in my response to you below.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

you see, i'm honest, whatever else i may be. i don't misrepresent what i believe the facts to be.

for the record:

Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-29-09 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. what's funny is, i'm not a trot, or a member of any sect at all.
i just think wsws has good reporting from a labor pov, even though i think sep is probably a psyops outfit.

heresy, apparently. only the nyt or wa post pass muster, apparently.

though they're propaganda & psyops outlets too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...


Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-15-09 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. some is coming from the qatar & saudi royals, biggest owners of "middle eastern" media.
everyone's got their biases. i don't believe the spin of middle eastern royals superior to anyone else's.

wsws's are up front, not disguised.

in fact, it's widely rumored the trots are a front group designed to siphon off real dissent.

nevertheless, in their role as phoney opposition, wsws delivers mostly fact-base reporting based on msm sources & local informants & analysis from an anti-capital pov, with an obligatory "we must build the rev" at the end.

i can discount their spin for the rest.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...


indeed, one does "wonder what the goals of such persons" as yourself are.

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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #165
176. This isn't DLCUnderground
all (d)Democrats are welcome, last I heard

:shrug:
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #176
178. oh, but it is.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #176
180. If you post articles from sites that call Democrats "criminal conspiracy" are you a Democrat? nt
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #180
186. link, hampton. then we'll discuss it.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #180
188. You got your 6 pity recs, let this thread die
Screw it.

I'm off to GD:STFU to look at pics of Bo

or maybe Malia has some new earrings


:eyes:
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #188
190. Poor thing. You're going to have to find another "crazy house" website ...
to get your information from.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #190
196. dupe
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 04:31 PM by Hannah Bell
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #190
197. david north = "millionaire" (runs a successful local business), so wsws reportage = "crazy".
i don't think so. but that's your spin.

let's apply it the the msm. hmmmm.

let's apply it to democratic & republican house organs. hmmm.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #197
200. I'm glad you've flipped your views and now think rich people are "successful"
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 04:36 PM by HamdenRice
Even though members are coming forward to say he stole the printing presses from an organization that had begged donations from workers to buy them?

Dag, hypocrisy is even worse than stupidity!
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #197
202. david north does not equal david green.
There's no need to legitimize an argument based on the claims of a solitary anonymous person on the internet who claims to be a disgruntled ex-member.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #202
203. You're a one note record. No one buys it. Even party members acknowledge it
with the parallel to Engels owning a textile factory. Google is your friends, and till you use it, you're kind of irrelevant in this discussion.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #203
207. LOL.
I'm just humoring you. Anyone who is so taken in by anonymous claims on the internet with no photographic proof at all is woefully gullible. I will never take you seriously ever again. You have failed to refute any of my points. You are simply a source of entertainment to me.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #207
250. "I will never take you seriously ever again."
You mean you did before? :wow:

:hi:
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #176
185. The site referred to is a house organ for another political party that did no support
Obama/Biden, they supported 2008 - Jerome White and Bill Van Auken.

For a party that received only 1,800 votes 4 years ago they seem very well financed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Equality_Party
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #185
194. you have a problem with rich people financing politics?
Chicago's (Duncan/Daley) Renaissance 2010 School "Reform": How Private Capital Makes Public Policy

Let's look at who footed the bill.

http://romanticpoet.wordpress.com/2009/01 /... /


I. Investors of $2,000,000 & Above

*Northern Trust:

- Invests old money for the super-rich of Chicago & elsewhere. Original shareholders (1889) = Field (dept store fortune), Armour (meat-packing), McCormick (ag machinery) & the Smith banking family of Chicago, who ran NT 1889-1981:

http://www.petershumway.org/nti/nti06174.h ...

Directors include Susan Crown (Crown Family, below) & John W. Rowe (Rowe Charitable Trust & Exelon, below). OBAMA BACKERS



*The Crown Family

- Chicagoan Henry Crown's descendants & *funders of Obama's campaign effort.*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Crown

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lester_Crown

"Controlled by Chicago's Crown family, Henry Crown and Company is an investment firm that owns or has interests in a variety of business assets. These holdings include stakes in sports teams (the Chicago Bulls and the New York Yankees), leisure (Aspen Skiing Company), banking (Chase), and real estate (Rockefeller Center). The company also has a stake in General Dynamics; after once controlling the company outright, it still has a seat on the board. The Crown family, worth an estimated $4.8 billion, ranks #75 on the 2008 Forbes magazine's List of Richest Americans and are prominent Chicago-area philanthropists."

http://biz.yahoo.com/ic/40/40214.html



*Rowe Family Charitable Trust

- Family trust of John W. Rowe: "John W. Rowe, 63, is the chairman and chief executive officer of Exelon Corporation, a utility holding company headquartered in Chicago. Exelon has the largest market capitalization in the electric utility industry. Its retail affiliates serve 5.4 million customers in Illinois and Pennsylvania, and its generation affiliate operates the largest fleet of nuclear power plants in the nation. Rowe is the senior chief executive in the utility industry, having served in such positions since 1984. Rowe has led Exelon since its formation in 2000 through the merger of PECO Energy and the parent of Commonwealth Edison."

http://www.equilar.com/CEO_Compensation/EX ...



*Exelon Corporation

- John Rowe's Corporation: http://www.exeloncorp.com/aboutus/manageme ... /

John Rowe Contribution List in 2008

Rowe, John W
CHICAGO, IL
60611 Exelon Corp/Chairman & Ceo Exelon C $576 12/04/2008 P EXELON CORPORATION POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE (EXELONPAC)
ROWE, JOHN
NEW YORK CITY, NY
10024 $-2,300 11/21/2008 P OBAMA VICTORY FUND - Democrat
Rowe, john
RANCHO SANTA FE, CA
92067 self/john@johnrowephoto.com $200 11/18/2008 G ACTBLUE
Rowe, John
RANCHO SANTA FE, CA
92067 John Rowe Photography/Photographer $1,000 11/01/2008 P OBAMA VICTORY FUND - Democrat
Rowe, John
RANCHO SANTA FE, CA
92067 John Rowe Photography/Photographer $1,000 10/31/2008 P OBAMA VICTORY FUND - Democrat
Rowe, John
RANCHO SANTA FE, CA
92067 self/photographer $2,000 10/29/2008 G NICK LEIBHAM FOR CONGRESS - Democrat
Rowe, John
CHICAGO, IL
60680 Exelon Corportation/Executive $1,300 10/23/2008 G JUDY BIGGERT FOR CONGRESS - Republican
Rowe, John
RANCHO SANTA FE, CA
92067 $-5,030 10/21/2008 G OBAMA FOR AMERICA - Democrat
Rowe, John
NEW YORK, NY
10024 Columbia University/Physician $30,800 10/13/2008 P OBAMA VICTORY FUND - Democrat
Rowe, John
RANCHO SANTA FE, CA
92067 John Rowe Photography/Photographer $250 10/13/2008 P OBAMA VICTORY FUND - Democrat
Rowe, John
CHICAGO, IL
60611 Exelon Corporation/Chairman $1,300 10/06/2008 G BILL FOSTER FOR CONGRESS COMMITTEE - Democrat
Rowe, John
NEW YORK, NY
10024 Columbia University/Physician $2,300 10/02/2008 G OBAMA FOR AMERICA - Democrat
Rowe, John W.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 Exelon Corporation/CEO and Presiden $1,000 09/30/2008 G HALVORSON FOR CONGRESS - Democrat
Rowe, John W
TUCSON, AZ
85733 Car Dealer/Precision Toyota $7,700 09/22/2008 P PIMA COUNTY REPUBLICAN PARTY FEDERAL CAMPAIGN COMMITTEE - Republican
Rowe, John W.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON/EXECUTIVE $2,300 09/13/2008 G CITIZENS FOR RUSH - Democrat
Rowe, John W.
TUCSON, AZ
85733 Precision Toyota/Executive $2,300 09/11/2008 G TIM BEE FOR CONGRESS - Republican
Rowe, John
RANCHO SANTA FE, CA
92067 $-5,030 09/10/2008 G OBAMA FOR AMERICA - Democrat
ROWE, JOHN
NEW YORK, NY
10024 COLUMBIA UNIV/PHYSICIAN $2,300 09/08/2008 G FRIENDS OF CHRIS DODD - Democrat
Rowe, John
RANCHO SANTA FE, CA
92067 Self employed/Photographer $1,000 08/30/2008 P OBAMA VICTORY FUND - Democrat
ROWE, JOHN
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON CORP./CHAIRMAN $-1,300 08/20/2008 P COLEMAN FOR SENATE 08 - Republican
ROWE, JOHN
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON CORP./CHAIRMAN $1,300 08/20/2008 G COLEMAN FOR SENATE 08 - Republican
ROWE, JOHN
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON CORP./CHAIRMAN $1,300 08/18/2008 P COLEMAN FOR SENATE 08 - Republican
Rowe, John W.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 Exelon Corp/Utility Exec. $1,300 08/17/2008 G DAVIS FOR CONGRESS/FRIENDS OF DAVIS - Democrat
ROWE, JOHN W
CHICAGO, IL
60603 EXELON CORPORATION/UTILITY EXEC $2,300 08/12/2008 G PAT ROBERTS FOR U S SENATE INC - Republican
Rowe, John W.
NEW YORK, NY
10024 Columbia University/Professor $2,300 08/08/2008 P FRIENDS OF TRACEY BROOKS - Democrat
Rowe, John
RANCHO SANTA FE, CA
92067 John Rowe Photo/Photographer $4,600 07/18/2008 P OBAMA VICTORY FUND - Democrat
Rowe, John W.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 Exelon/CEO $400 07/07/2008 G KIRK FOR CONGRESS - Republican
Rowe, John
RANCHO SANTA FE, CA
92067 Self employed/Photographer $294 06/30/2008 P OBAMA FOR AMERICA - Democrat
Rowe, John W.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 Exelon Corp/Utility Exec. $1,000 06/26/2008 G DAVIS FOR CONGRESS/FRIENDS OF DAVIS - Democrat
ROWE, JOHN W. MR.
NEW YORK, NY
10024 COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY $2,300 06/18/2008 G MCCAIN-PALIN COMPLIANCE FUND INC. - Republican
Rowe, John
CHICAGO, IL
60611 Exelon Corporation/Chairman $1,000 06/03/2008 G BILL FOSTER FOR CONGRESS COMMITTEE - Democrat
Rowe, John
RANCHO SANTA FE, CA
92067 John Rowe Photo/Photographer $2,300 05/31/2008 P OBAMA FOR AMERICA - Democrat
Rowe, John
RANCHO SANTA FE, CA
92067 John Rowe Photo/Photographer $2,300 05/31/2008 P OBAMA FOR AMERICA - Democrat
Rowe, John B
SANTA BARBARA, CA
93109 Not Employed/Retired $375 05/30/2008 P HILLARY CLINTON FOR PRESIDENT - Democrat
ROWE, JOHN MR.
SAINT LOUIS, MO
63131 BETHESDA HEALTH GROUP INC./BUSINESS $500 05/27/2008 P JOHN MCCAIN 2008 INC. - Republican
ROWE, JOHN W. MR.
NEW YORK, NY
10024 COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY/PHYSICIAN $4,600 05/21/2008 P JOHN MCCAIN 2008 INC. - Republican
Rowe, John B
SANTA BARBARA, CA
93109 Not Employed/Retired $200 05/06/2008 P HILLARY CLINTON FOR PRESIDENT - Democrat
ROWE, JOHN W. MR.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON CORPORATION/CHIEF EXECUTIVE $2,300 04/30/2008 P JOHN MCCAIN 2008 INC. - Republican
ROWE, JOHN W. MR.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON CORPORATION/CHIEF EXECUTIVE $-2,300 04/30/2008 P JOHN MCCAIN 2008 INC. - Republican
ROWE, JOHN W. MR.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON CORPORATION $2,300 04/30/2008 G MCCAIN-PALIN COMPLIANCE FUND INC. - Republican
Rowe, John
RANCHO SANTA FE, CA
92067 $-73 03/31/2008 P OBAMA FOR AMERICA - Democrat
ROWE, JOHN
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON/CEO $2,300 03/31/2008 G CITIZENS FOR ARLEN SPECTER - Republican
Rowe, John W.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 Exelon/CEO $2,000 03/20/2008 G JESSE JACKSON JR FOR CONGRESS - Democrat
ROWE, JOHN
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON CORPORATION/CHAIRMAN, PRESID $2,300 03/10/2008 P MCCULLOUGH FOR CONGRESS - Republican
Rowe, John W. Mr.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 Exelon Corporation/Chairman & Chief $10,000 03/07/2008 P NATIONAL REPUBLICAN CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE - Republican
Rowe, John
CHICAGO, IL
60680 Exelon Corporation/Utility CEO $2,300 03/04/2008 OBERWEIS FOR CONGRESS - Republican
Rowe, John W
CHICAGO, IL
60603 Exelon Corp./Chairman, President, C $2,300 02/27/2008 G MELISSA BEAN FOR CONGRESS - Democrat
Rowe, John B
SANTA BARBARA, CA
93109 Not Employed/Retired $250 02/19/2008 P HILLARY CLINTON FOR PRESIDENT - Democrat
Rowe, John
RANCHO SANTA FE, CA
92067 John Rowe Photo/Photographer $2,300 02/08/2008 P OBAMA FOR AMERICA - Democrat
Rowe, John
RANCHO SANTA FE, CA
92067 John Rowe Photo/Photographer $-2,300 02/08/2008 P OBAMA FOR AMERICA - Democrat
Rowe, John
RANCHO SANTA FE, CA
92067 John Rowe Photo/Photographer $2,300 02/08/2008 G OBAMA FOR AMERICA - Democrat
Rowe, John W.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 Exelon Corp./Chairman, President an $5,000 01/29/2008 P POWERPAC OF THE EDISON ELECTRIC INSTITUTE
Rowe, John B
SANTA BARBARA, CA
93109 Not Employed/Retired $250 01/25/2008 P HILLARY CLINTON FOR PRESIDENT - Democrat
Rowe, John
CHICAGO, IL
60690 Exelon Corporation/Chairman and CEO $5,000 01/23/2008 P NUCLEAR ENERGY INSTITUTE FEDERAL POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE
Rowe, John W.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 Exelon Corporation/CEO and Presiden $2,000 12/28/2007 P HALVORSON FOR CONGRESS - Democrat
ROWE, JOHN W. MR.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON CORPORATION/CHAIRMAN/C.E.O. $2,300 12/19/2007 P RUDY GIULIANI PRESIDENTIAL COMMITTEE INC - Republican
Rowe, John
NEW YORK, NY
10024 Aetna/Chairman/CEO $250 12/10/2007 P HILLARY CLINTON FOR PRESIDENT - Democrat
Rowe, John W.
NEW YORK, NY
10024 $-2,300 12/05/2007 G SAUL FOR CONGRESS INC - Republican
Rowe, John W.
NEW YORK, NY
10024 $-2,300 12/04/2007 P SAUL FOR CONGRESS INC - Republican
Rowe, John W.
NEW YORK, NY
10024 Columbia University/Professor $2,300 12/03/2007 P JUDY FEDER FOR CONGRESS - Democrat
ROWE, JOHN W
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON/CHAIRMAN $2,300 11/28/2007 P FRIENDS OF DICK DURBIN COMMITTEE - Democrat
ROWE, JOHN
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON CORPORATION/CHAIRMAN & CEO $1,000 11/21/2007 P DEMOCRATIC SENATORIAL CAMPAIGN COMMITTEE - Democrat
ROWE, JOHN MICHAEL MR.
CENTENNIAL, CO
80122 SELF-EMPLOYED/TELECOMMUNICATIONS / $300 11/15/2007 P FRED THOMPSON POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE - Republican
ROWE, JOHN
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON CORP./CHAIRMAN $-1,000 11/06/2007 P COLEMAN FOR SENATE 08 - Republican
ROWE, JOHN
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON CORP./CHAIRMAN $1,000 11/06/2007 G COLEMAN FOR SENATE 08 - Republican
Rowe, John W
NEW YORK, NY
10024 Columbia University/Physician $2,300 10/24/2007 JIM HIMES FOR CONGRESS - Democrat
ROWE, JOHN
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON CORP./CHAIRMAN $2,300 10/15/2007 P COLEMAN FOR SENATE 08 - Republican
ROWE, JOHN
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON/CEO $2,300 10/15/2007 G CITIZENS FOR ARLEN SPECTER - Republican
ROWE, JOHN MICHAEL MR.
CENTENNIAL, CO
80122 SELF-EMPLOYED/TELECOMMUNICATIONS / $200 10/08/2007 P FRED THOMPSON POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE - Republican
Rowe, John W
CHICAGO, IL
60680 Exelon Corporation/Chairman $1,000 10/04/2007 P JERRY BENNETT FOR CONGRESS - Democrat
ROWE, JOHN
CHICAGO, IL
60680 $-2,300 09/19/2007 P CITIZENS FOR ARLEN SPECTER - Republican
Rowe, John B
SANTA BARBARA, CA
93109 None/Retired $250 09/18/2007 P HILLARY CLINTON FOR PRESIDENT - Democrat
Rowe, John W.
NEW YORK, NY
10024 Columbia university/Professor $2,300 07/31/2007 P SAUL FOR CONGRESS INC - Republican
Rowe, John W.
NEW YORK, NY
10024 Columbia university/Professor $2,300 07/31/2007 G SAUL FOR CONGRESS INC - Republican
Rowe, John W.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON/EXECUTIVE $2,000 07/30/2007 P CITIZENS FOR RUSH - Democrat
Rowe, John W.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 Exelon Energy Delivery/utility exec $1,500 06/30/2007 P ROSKAM FOR CONGRESS COMMITTEE - Republican
Rowe, John W
NEW YORK, NY
10024 Columbia University/Professor $2,300 06/30/2007 P JUDY FEDER FOR CONGRESS - Democrat
Rowe, John
CHICAGO, IL
60680 Exelon Corportation/Executive $1,000 06/27/2007 P JUDY BIGGERT FOR CONGRESS - Republican
ROWE, JOHN W
CHICAGO, IL
60611 EXELON CORP/CEO $2,300 06/08/2007 P STEVENS FOR SENATE COMMITTEE - Republican
ROWE, JOHN
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON/CEO $2,300 05/31/2007 P CITIZENS FOR ARLEN SPECTER - Republican
Rowe, John
RANCHO SANTA FE, CA
92067 John Rowe Photo/Photographer $2,300 05/03/2007 P OBAMA FOR AMERICA - Democrat
Rowe, John W Mr.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 Exelon Corporation/Chairman & Chief $10,000 03/30/2007 P NATIONAL REPUBLICAN CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE - Republican
Rowe, John
NEW YORK, NY
10024 Columbia Univ/Physician $2,300 03/23/2007 G CHRIS DODD FOR PRESIDENT INC - Democrat
Rowe, John
NEW YORK, NY
10024 Columbia Univ/Physician $200 03/23/2007 P CHRIS DODD FOR PRESIDENT INC - Democrat
ROWE, JOHN W. MR.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON CORP./CEO $2,300 03/22/2007 P JOHN MCCAIN 2008 INC. - Republican
Rowe, John W
CHICAGO, IL
60611 Exelon Corp/Utility Executive $2,300 03/19/2007 P OBAMA FOR AMERICA - Democrat
Rowe, John W.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 Exelon/CEO $2,000 03/10/2007 P JESSE JACKSON JR FOR CONGRESS - Democrat
Rowe, John W.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 Exelon/CEO $2,300 02/22/2007 P KIRK FOR CONGRESS - Republican
Rowe, John W.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 Exelon/CEO $1,900 02/22/2007 G KIRK FOR CONGRESS - Republican
ROWE, JOHN W MR.
CHICAGO, IL
60680 EXELON CORP./CEO $1,000 02/20/2007 P ROMNEY FOR PRESIDENT INC. - Republican
Rowe, John W
CHICAGO, IL
60680 Exelon Corp./Chairman; President an $5,000 01/22/2007 P POWERPAC OF THE EDISON ELECTRIC INSTITUTE
Rowe, John
CHICAGO, IL
60690 Exelon Corporation/Chairman and CEO $5,000 01/22/2007 P NUCLEAR ENERGY INSTITUTE FEDERAL POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE







*The Searle Funds at The Chicago Community Trust

- Searle Funds: From the estate of pharm magnate John Searle

- Chicago Community Trust: Chicago area foundation.

Executive Committee responsible for all grant allocations includes:

Paula Crown (Crown family);

Trustees include:

William Daley (Daley political family)
Waddell (Northern Trust) family member,
John Canning Jr (Chicago Federal Reserve, see below)

Trustee Banks include JP Morgan, BOA, Northern Trust, La Salle, etc.



*Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation

- No explanation needed. Gates & Warren Buffett, both **obama funders** & both principles in Gates Foundation funding, regularly trade off "world's richest man" crown.

Gates Foundation = probably biggest funder of R&D into genetically modified (patentable) ag & medicine, "marketization" in economies not yet fully controlled by global capital (i.e. poor peasants & tribesmen in africa), & destroying traditional culture under the guise of "empowering women," as well as school "reform".



*The Walton Family Foundation, Inc

- No explanation needed. Richest family in US, biggest funder of school "reform" & charter schools. Supposedly "right wing," the Waltons play well with supposedly "liberal" foundations like Gates on school reform.



II. Investors of $1,000,000 to $1,999,999

*Baxter International Inc: Pharma

*JPMorgan Chase: no intro needed.

*McDonalds Corp. & Ronald McDonald House Charities

*The Boeing Company: no intro needed.


*McCormick Foundation:

- The Chicago Tribune-owning McCormicks' family foundation.

Publisher Robert Rutherford McCormick = great-nephew of Cyrus McCormick: "McCormick Reaper" McCormick Harvesting Co. became International Harvester.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_McCormi ...

Grandson of Joseph Medill: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Medill

Cousin of Joseph Medill Patterson, founder of NY Daily News & Grandfather of Madeline Albright's husband of 23 years: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Medill ...

cousin of Cissy Patterson, founder of Newsday & Guggenheim wife: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_Patter ...

Son of diplomat Robert S McCormick (Sec to Robert Todd Lincoln): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Sander ...

Brother of Joseph M McCormick, whose wife Ruth Hanna = daughter of the fixer & capitalist Mark Hanna, Rockefeller schoolmate, the Rockefellers being connected early on to the ag instrument business of the McCormick ancestors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Medill ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Hanna_Mc ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Hanna

Red-baiting McCormick family had ties to McCarthyism & US intelligence, e.g.:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article /...



* The Chicago Community Trust:

- See above.



*Chicago High School Redesign Initiative

- A project of the Chicago Community Trust, see above



*Polk Bros Foundation:

- Chicago furniture money: Obama donors & friends
http://www.polkbrosfdn.org/wherewevebeen.h ...
http://web.archive.org/web/20010124111600 /...



*Civic Committee of The Commercial Club of Chicago

- Chair White = Abbott Pharma
- Vice-Chair Farrell = Illinois Tool Works
- Committee Member John Canning, also on Chicago Community Trust Board
- Members Knight & Parkinson = Baxter
- Member W. James McNerney, JR. = Boeing
- Rosenfeld = Kraft
- Sander = Chicago Mercantile Exchange (CME)
- Skinner = McDonalds
- Waddell = Northern Trust

- Member John W. Roger, JR. = Arne Duncan Business partner
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_W._Roger ... .

- Member John Rowe = Excelon, Rowe Family Trust (see above)

- The two Pritzker members = Pritzker family (see below)



*Pritzker Foundation

- Family foundation of one of america's richest families & major obama backers & donors. Penny Pritzker = campaign finance chair:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pritzker_fami ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abram_Nichola ...



*CME Trust

- Chicago Mercantile Exchange Trust:

CME Group (http://www.cmegroup.com ) is the world's largest and most diverse
exchange. Formed by the 2007 merger of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange
(CME) and the Chicago Board of Trade (CBOT), CME Group serves the risk
management needs of customers around the globe. As an international
marketplace, CME Group brings buyers and sellers together on the CME Globex
electronic trading platform and on its trading floors. CME Group
is traded on the New York Stock Exchange and NASDAQ under the symbol "CME."

Chicago Mercantile Exchange Trust was established by CME in 1969, under
the direction of its then chairman, Leo Melamed, to provide financial
protection to customers in the event a CME member firm became insolvent or
unable to meet its obligations to its customers.... CME Trust is an independent for-profit
Illinois trust, separate from CME Group Inc. For more information on CME
Trust, contact Kassie Davis, Executive Director.



*Rauner Family Foundation: environment, religion, & charter schools?

http://www.implu.com/nonprofit/363993405

http://www.activistcash.com/foundation.cfm ...

Bruce V. Rauner: Goldner Rauner venture capital/private equity

http://www.buyoutsconferences.com/buyouts_ ...



*Deloitte LLP:

- big 4 international auditing firm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deloitte_Touc ...



*Financial Investments Corporation

- Connected with La Salle Bank, Chicago Community Trust Trustee Bank.

http://www.fic-sff.com/fic-history.php



*Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal LLP

- International chicago law firm est 1906; made its bones repping Sears & allstate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonnenschein_ ...



*Sara Lee Corporation



III. Investors of $500,000 to $999,999

*Illinois Tool Works Foundation
- Foundation of Illinios Tool Works, founder = Byron Smith, head of Northern Trust:

http://www.itw.com/itw/this_is_itw/history



*Kirkland & Ellis LLP

- law firm founded by Robert McCormick, Chicago Trib publisher (see above); a top US firm; Ken Starr & Robert Bork = former counsel at the firm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkland_&_El ...



*Madigan Family Foundation

- Family foundation of former Chicago Trib (McCormick family founders) exec & banker John Madigan

http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php ?...



*The Canning Foundation

- Chicago-area family foundation; John Canning Jr. = Director of Fed Reserve Bank of chicago & chicago community trust (see above).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Canning, ... .
http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/con ...



*Sidley Austin LLP
- The law firm where Michelle worked & met Barack; 9th-largest firm in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidley_Austin



*The Allstate Corporation: the Sears insurance company.
*Sears Holdings Corporation: i.e. "Sears," 8th-largest US retailer, Chicago-based, founders = sears, roebuck, & rosenwald, friend of henry morgenthau sr & goldman sachs partner henry goldman:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Rosenw ...



*Abbott: Pharma

*Kenilworth Families Partnership

- apparently an alliance of kenilworth neighborhood families with some kind of private funders.


*PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP - another Big Four auditor
*Ernst & Young - another Big Four auditor


*HSBC North America
- Hong Kong Shanghai Banking Corporation, the bank built on the opium trade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hongkong_ ...


*Mayer Brown LLP

- http://www.mayerbrown.com/about/index.asp ?...



*Bain & Company

- management consultant firm; mitt romney = former partner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bain_&_Compan ...


*Fortune Brands
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune_Brand ...


*Grosvenor Capital Management
- "privately-owned hedge fund sponsor...founded in 1971 & based in Chicago."
http://www.linkedin.com/companies/grosveno ...


*W.W. Grainger, Inc:

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._W._Grainge ...


*Harris Bank
- https://www4.harrisbank.com/wealth/0,4928, ...

*Winnetka Families Partnership
*Woodley Road Neighbors
*AT&T
*Kraft Foods
*Bank of America
*Motorola Foundation
*Discover Financial Services



IV. Investors of $250,000 to $499,999

*John W. Rogers, Jr
- Arne Duncan Business Partner



*Carnegie Corporation of New York
- The old robber baron's "philanthopy," keeping the world safe for capital for 98 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_Corp ...

etc.



Some grassoots. To the person who said "Obama doesn't know what's going on in his Education Dept" re charter schools: of course he does. These people are his backers, funders, supporters & friends.
Read entry | Discuss (20 comments) | Recommend (+11 votes) | Remove from Journal | Add/Edit Intro
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #194
201. Apparently, you now don't. It's the new "Hannah Bull" view nt
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #201
205. lol
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 04:43 PM by redqueen
I dunno how you do it, HR, but thank you for doing it. :)
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #205
208. you know how.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #208
210. No, I honestly don't...
I sure as hell don't have the patience for it... I'll NEVER be that bored! :rofl:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #205
247. Deleted message
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #247
249. I'm thanking him for "tweaking" (as Hannah puts it) the people who post anti Dem stuff CONSTANTLY.
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 09:26 AM by redqueen
You're goddamn right this place is infested... by people who seem to have nothing but contempt for the only party that can challenge the power of the right in our government.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #201
206. oh, i do. i'm just not so disingenuous to suggest that a regional millionaire is more suspect
than global billion & trillionaires, or that opposition factions can exist without well-heeled backers.

everything political is funded, & not by mom & pop.
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subcomhd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
242. Thank You HamdenRice. Kicked and Recomended. nt
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
243. I love WSWS and I'm not bothered in the least that Marxists reject it.
In fact that adds to the allure for me.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #243
252. And yet,
WSWS sees itself as the most orthodox Marxist tendency. Which makes this infight so enjoyable.

(Marx: I'm not a Marxist).
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