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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:10 PM
Original message
ACORN Should Be Investigated and All Government Funds Should Be Suspended Until The Investigation...
is complete. I am a partisan, but I am also a rational human being. If an organization's workers are caught on camera dispensing advice on how to hide illegal activities and skirt the law, then it should not receive government funds. It's that simple.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yes, I'd like to see an in-depth investigation.
It could have been a set-up - i.e. all players could be from the right-wing.
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. you think like me
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Doremus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
48. Gee, ya think??
The repukes have already said they did it. :eyes:
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zaj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. Agreed.
The right has their own Michale Moore and they found a mess that needs cleaning up. Fix the problems now.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. This dick is a "Michael Moore?"
please...
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Well, it's a stretch but it's not like they'd ever have a REAL Michael Moore.
A creepy douchebag who dresses up like a pimp to "bust" liberal organizations is as close as they'll ever come.
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zaj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
52. Yep, they did the same sort of thing targeting the left...
... not sure how anyone would dispute this. You don't have to like the people involved to admit it's an identical method being used against the left.

They used it quite effectively.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Bullshit.
Michael Moore never invented crimes.
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Doremus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
50. You might want to lay off Faux News.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
4. exactly
considering the extent (# of employees in multiple offices), the seriousness of their actions, i have come to the same conclusion.

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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. Lots of other investigations that aren't getting done that should be a much higher priority.
Edited on Tue Sep-15-09 11:36 PM by Hissyspit
You do realize the right's attacks on ACORN were ALWAYS about deflection from the Election Fraud on the right? Voter Fraud was never a real issue. Not to mention the racist undertones to the attacks.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Our money is going to Acorn - I
call that high priority.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. And it's well spent.
Much more money spent on those things that never got investigated. My taxpayer dollars paid for Blackwater, my taxpayer dollars paid for extraordinary rendition, my taxpayer dollars paid for a corrupt Department of Justice...

But, yes, let's continue to only hold those on the left accountable. It makes Republicans happy.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. And I'd Want Blackwater Investigated As Well
Blackwater should not even exist.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
36. I would like to expose and hold all
cheats accountable.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #17
37. Our money goes to Wackenhut, Blackwater and KBR.
And a lot more of it too. Yet they manage to continue to get contracts in spite of the fact that the allegations into them have been proven. The standards by which ACORN has been treated vis a vis the mercenaries we hire is quite different. I smell a political witch hunt.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
7. And the same thing should happen to Goldman Sachs, BOA, Citi, J.P. Morgan
Edited on Tue Sep-15-09 11:27 PM by kenny blankenship
and the other crooks who put us in a trillion dollar hole through their scams.

If ACORN is shut down because of a handful of incidents, the other government supported entities named above are guilty a hundred billion times over.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
8. Did you call for Catholic Charities to be investigated
when it was revealed they were harboring pedophile priests?


Curios, though. For what will they be investigated? No government funds were involved, and in fact, they do not receive government funds. Furthermore, no law was broken.

You are advocating a witch hunt.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. They should be. As should all religious groups who receive "faith based" funding.
They've already caught religious "boot camps" for troubled young people engaging in abuse and endangerment.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. So you are suggesting that the Catholic Church
be investigated because of the behavior of the illegal behavior of a few of its priests? ACORN does not receive government funding and those caught on tape did not engage in criminal activity. Again, for what should they be investigated?
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kelly1mm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. ACORN does receive federal funding, here is a link saying $53M from 94-09
http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/ktvi-acorn-senate-b...

and a portion highlighting the types of funding they received/were going to receive.

"The Senate's move, which adds an amendment to a House bill that must go back to that chamber before taking effect, would make ACORN ineligible to win HUD grants for programs such as counseling low-income people on how to get mortgages and for fair housing education and outreach.

Sen. Mike Johanns, R-Neb., said that ACORN has received $53 million in taxpayer funds since 1994 and that the group was eligible for a wider set of funding in the pending legislation, which pays for housing and transportation programs.

Just last week, the Census Bureau severed its ties with ACORN, saying it does not want the group's help in outreach efforts on the decennial count."
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #15
27. ACORN does receive government funds.
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 12:05 AM by hughee99
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. According to ACORN, they receive grant money from organizations that
receive government funds to provide services specific to the grant parameters. Given that your link provides know details (some of that money could be for clients via FHA loans), I'll reserve judgment.
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #33
42. How about this?
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/27153.html

Excerpts from the link...
"The Senate dealt a blow to ACORN Monday evening, voting to deny the Department of Housing and Urban Development from granting funds to the community organization."

"In a statement, ACORN CEO Bertha Lewis said: "Were disappointed that the Senate took the rare and politically convenient step of supporting eliminating some federal funding for a single organization, one that has been the target of a multi-year political assault stemming variously from the Bush White House, Fox News, and other conservative quarters."

So if ACORN doesn't get government funds, that means that HUD hasn't given ACORN money before and the Senate took the preemptive measure to prevent them from doing so.

Of course, then it's rather peculiar that ACORN CEO Bertha Lewis would say that they're "ELIMINATING SOME FEDERAL FUNDING" as a result, if they've never given money to ACORN in the first place.

They didn't eliminate any funding, just stipulating that the money not be dispersed by a government organization to ACORN.

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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. One, Catholic Charities Should Not Be Getting Tax Dollars
Two, if ACORN does not receive government tax dollars, then they still should be investigated for advising fraud.

It's not a witch hunt. You are not legally allowed to give advice on how to skirt the law and cheat on your taxes.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #20
35. but they *do* get tax dollars, as do other religious orgs.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #20
39. As far as I been able to find out.
Every lawyer and law enforcement agency has determined that the ACORN employees have committed no crime because no crime has been committed. \

And since, I've not listened to the tapes, what kind of fraud was being committed? The fact that advice was given to a prostitute to CLAIM HER INCOME TO THE IRS (and thus also pay taxes) under an assumed profession? I'd think that most people would be happy that taxes were paid and less concerned about how it came about. I've know a few prostitutes... I've counseled them to leave the life. I also counseled them to PAY their taxes, no matter how creative they have to describe their profession. Why? Because filing taxes enables them to establish a paper trail to gain access to credit which, in this capitalist society, gains them access to "straight" society.
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mariawr Donating Member (171 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #20
45. If it's coming from Faux, it's a witch hunt. They lie. A lot. n/t
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
9. ACORN has good intentions but they are amateurish and poorly run.
There is no excuse for employees in any of their offices taking the story of a smug young man who is clearly channeling Harvey Keitel in "Taxi Driver" and his Jodie Foster "hooker" sidekick at face value. Obviously, they need to do some better training. "Don't do anything to help people break the law" would be a good start.
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Beaverhausen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. they are a non-profit organization who are helping the poor
of course they are amateurish and poorly run. They also do a lot of good work and have since 1970. Sheesh.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
16.  . . .
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
12. I will never rest until Burger King is held accountable for employees bathing in the sink.
But seriously, this is really fucking stupid.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
13. So, when did you dump the presumption of innocence?
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. When Evidence Is Produced That They're Advocating Illegal Activities
and fraud.

Being partisan does not mean that you defend illegal acts. These people were caught on tape advising a client on how to conceal child prostitutes from the law.

That's beyond the pale.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:57 PM
Original message
Have you got any evidence they advocate illegal activity?
No, you don't.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #22
32. Doesn't it give you a moment's pause that every time one of these stories,
these damning sensational stories, comes out it proves to be bullshit -- every time?

Doesn't that give you even the slightest inclination to wait and see how it pans out? Before you tar an entire organization that has registered millions of underserved voters?



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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
19. What's ACORN's real crime? Oh yeah, they register voters.
The poor ones who don't vote the way Fox News and the RW Republican media machine wants. OK, I'll agree to support an investigation on them, but when do we sting and take away the tax-exempt status of a bunch of for-profit Christian evangelical churches who are organizing for the Republican Party?
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. ACORN's Real Crime
Is dispensing advice to someone on how to conceal child prostitutes from the law.

This is not a partisan issue. This is a right and wrong issue, and we should address it as such.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #24
40. Not a crime. Stop lying.
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mariawr Donating Member (171 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #24
46. Edited tapes from Faux? and you believe them? please...n/t
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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. there's one born every minute..
and evidently some of them manage to make their way here. fuggin rubes.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
21. Absolutely /nt
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
25. May I Ask Those That Disagree with Me A Question?
The ACORN workers were caught giving advice to someone who wanted to conceal the fact that he had underage prostitutes from the law. The ACORN worker didn't act surprised nor alarmed, and she gave him advice.

Do you support an organization giving advice on how to conceal underage prostitutes from the law?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Why, yes, I do support ACORN.


Do you use airlines which have had a history of plane crashes?
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Huh?
I don't get it.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Do you only fly on airlines which have never had a plane crash?
As for me, I could never get on a plane owed by a company that advocates plane crashes.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #25
34. You need to step out of the right wing frame.
Because you don't know if it's even true. You were shown a video and fed a bunch of assumptions.

Check out this statement:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #25
41. I support ACORN who does not indorse underage prostitution.
I do not support employees who give advice supporting such.

Similarly, I support the U.S. Congress. I do not support Vitter who engaged in illegal activity.
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mariawr Donating Member (171 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #25
47. Probably set up, knew they were ringers...
and played along, would be one reason.
Or were paid--another reason.
Doesn't matter- the purpose is to discredit a good organization that is connected to Pres. Obama.
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kickysnana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
30. Check the Greatest Page -- we are hearing the other side of the story..n/t
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
38. If they can find a reason other than those videos. The Videos are illegal wiretaps.
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 01:11 AM by Wizard777
The contents cannot be revealed. No Federal, State or Local Government entity can use the contents as evidence in any proceeding. In fact disciplinary action should be taken against the Senator that introduced the bill to revoke their funding. That was illegal.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. actually, they're probably not.
and there almost certainly won't be any charges against the two- except for perhaps in MD, where it looks like they may have violated state law.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. They are even under federal law. They were in a place of business. It's highly illegal.
TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

PART I--CRIMES

CHAPTER 119--WIRE AND ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS INTERCEPTION AND
INTERCEPTION OF ORAL COMMUNICATIONS


Sec. 2511. Interception and disclosure of wire, oral, or
electronic communications prohibited

(1) Except as otherwise specifically provided in this chapter any
person who--
(a) intentionally intercepts, endeavors to intercept, or
procures any other person to intercept or endeavor to intercept, any
wire, oral, or electronic communication;
(b) intentionally uses, endeavors to use, or procures any other
person to use or endeavor to use any electronic, mechanical, or
other device to intercept any oral communication when--
(i) such device is affixed to, or otherwise transmits a
signal through, a wire, cable, or other like connection used in
wire communication; or
(ii) such device transmits communications by radio, or
interferes with the transmission of such communication; or
(iii) such person knows, or has reason to know, that such
device or any component thereof has been sent through the mail
or transported in interstate or foreign commerce; or
(iv) such use or endeavor to use (A) takes place on the
premises of any business or other commercial establishment the
operations of which affect interstate or foreign commerce; or
(B) obtains or is for the purpose of obtaining information
relating to the operations of any business or other commercial
establishment the operations of which affect interstate or
foreign commerce; or
(v) such person acts in the District of Columbia, the
Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any territory or possession of
the United States;

(c) intentionally discloses, or endeavors to disclose, to any
other person the contents of any wire, oral, or electronic
communication, knowing or having reason to know that the information
was obtained through the interception of a wire, oral, or electronic
communication in violation of this subsection;
(d) intentionally uses, or endeavors to use, the contents of any
wire, oral, or electronic communication, knowing or having reason to
know that the information was obtained through the interception of a
wire, oral, or electronic communication in violation of this
subsection; or
(e)(i) intentionally discloses, or endeavors to disclose, to any
other person the contents of any wire, oral, or electronic
communication, intercepted by means authorized by sections
2511(2)(a)(ii), 2511(2)(b)-(c), 2511(2)(e), 2516, and 2518 of this
chapter, (ii) knowing or having reason to know that the information
was obtained through the interception of such a communication in
connection with a criminal investigation, (iii) having obtained or
received the information in connection with a criminal
investigation, and (iv) with intent to improperly obstruct, impede,
or interfere with a duly authorized criminal investigation,

shall be punished as provided in subsection (4) or shall be subject to
suit as provided in subsection (5).
(2)(a)(i) It shall not be unlawful under this chapter for an
operator of a switchboard, or an officer, employee, or agent of a
provider of wire or electronic communication service, whose facilities
are used in the transmission of a wire or electronic communication, to
intercept, disclose, or use that communication in the normal course of
his employment while engaged in any activity which is a necessary
incident to the rendition of his service or to the protection of the
rights or property of the provider of that service, except that a
provider of wire communication service to the public shall not utilize
service observing or random monitoring except for mechanical or service quality control checks.
(ii) Notwithstanding any other law, providers of wire or electronic
communication service, their officers, employees, and agents, landlords,
custodians, or other persons, are authorized to provide information,
facilities, or technical assistance to persons authorized by law to
intercept wire, oral, or electronic communications or to conduct
electronic surveillance, as defined in section 101 of the Foreign
Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, if such provider, its officers,
employees, or agents, landlord, custodian, or other specified person,
has been provided with--
(A) a court order directing such assistance signed by the
authorizing judge, or
(B) a certification in writing by a person specified in section
2518(7) of this title or the Attorney General of the United States
that no warrant or court order is required by law, that all
statutory requirements have been met, and that the specified
assistance is required,
________________________________________________________________________

Also in subsequent sections it is illegal for Acorn to use the contents of the videos to the fire employees. It is illegal for the Census Bureau to use the contents to terminate the census partnership with Acorn. It is also illegal for the Senate to use the contents to cut their funding or for hearing or investigations. Disciplinary actions maybe taken against anyone who has used or divulged the contents. Up to and including The United States.
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
49. NO - It's NOT that simple - you can find crooks and idiots everywhere in every organization
if we adopted your rule nobody would ever get funding and every organization would be shut down because as Shakespeare wrote in Henry V:

"there is no king, be his cause never so
spotless, if it come to the arbitrement of swords, can try it out
with all unspotted soldiers"

No organization is immune to idiots and crooks and this is clearly a witch hunt. If the military, the police and the airlines can't prevent their employees from acting like idiots and crooks, why is ACORN being held to an impossibly high standard?
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